Manager reputation - Not realistic

[marcMCFC1986]

Hello

I have played 6 season on FM17, all with Man City, starting with Sunday League reputation.

In those 6 seasons I have won 3 Premier Leagues, and 18 Cup Competitions - can't remember the exact breakdown, but it includes a minimum of 3 Champions Leagues, and the rest a combination of FA Cups, League Cups, Community Shields, World Club Cups & European Super Cups. I have also managed Paolo Dybala to 5 consecutive Ballon D'Or wins, who is Man City's all-time leading goalscorer, and I am a club legend.

I decided that I am a bit bored, and wanted a new challenge - either in a foreign country, or bringing a sleeping giant from Championship/League One back to the Premier League! So, I resigned from Man City - and was quickly replaced by Pep Guardiola, who vacated the Atletico Madrid job to re-join Man City. I thought that would be a good side to go for, so I applied for the job and sat back waiting for the job interview to start. I didn't even get one - I was informed that the calibre of candidates was particularly high and that they have given the job to Roberto Martinez. Ok...

Maybe Roberto had built a brilliant reputation in the 6 years I've been leading Man City to unparalleled success, and was the worthy choice as manager...I didn't check his history to be honest, I just assumed. I was still a bit put out that I wasn't even given an interview, but I let that one go! 

Next job to become available was Ipswich Town...20th in Championship in mid-October. I thought "Yes!" This would have been one of those nice stories where a team is struggling, new manager comes in mid-season, revives them, sneaks into the play-offs in the last game of the season, and secures promotion! Ipswich were one of the clubs I grew up knowing as a Premier League club under George Burley - so it would have been nice to take them back up! But no...again, not even a job interview and the job instead went to some nobody who isn't even fit to lace my boots - or polish my shoes, as it would be in manager talk. Not only this, but the media described my 'desperation' for a new job and that my application would most likely be 'laughed off' by the Ipswich board.

I had a look on my profile at my reputation...35%! THIRTY-FIVE!!! What the hell do you have to do to get a good enough reputation to be offered an interview with Ipswich Town?

Anyone else found that their reputation doesn't quite match their achievements? I feel like I'm going to just have to stay at Man City and continue to brainlessly win titles and cups for another 4-5 years with the super-squad I have built, to get my reputation high enough to peak the interest of my local club, Stockport County!

[Cougar2010]

Your problem is the unrealistic start.

You shouldn't be selecting Man City with Sunday League Rep.

If you are wanting to start with Man City you should be selecting an appropriate reputation for that club then you wouldn't have the issue when you left.

[LethalTexture]

37 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Your problem is the unrealistic start.

You shouldn't be selecting Man City with Sunday League Rep.

If you are wanting to start with Man City you should be selecting an appropriate reputation for that club then you wouldn't have the issue when you left.

I agree; it's not really right to complain about lack of realism when you start the game with a top club as a Sunday League-level manager.  Man City would never hire somebody that low.

[enigmatic]

Mourinho started the game as Bobby Robson's interpreter. Whilst he spent a good long while as an assistant before getting a managerial role, it only took four seasons of management and the one Champions League win before he was considered a world class manager. And if some maverick oligarch were to parachute their nephew from the Russian Sunday League into the manager's role at their new toy football club, that nephew wouldn't struggle to find job interviews afterwards if he won European titles rather than screwing things up.

A reputation system that doesn't guarantee that winning a Champions League earns a manager at least enough reputation to be considered for most top division sides, regardless of their starting point, isn't a good one. Success at a certain level should ensure a person reaches a minimum threshold as well as add points if they're already over that threshold

Same applies at lower levels where it might be more realistic for people to come from literally nowhere. Mark Warburton's experience before meeting Brentford's chairman during the filming of a TV program consisted of an unsuccessful four year spell of youth coaching at Watford and a bit of semi-pro football two decades earlier. But promotion from League One and a good spell in the Championship was enough to land him the Rangers job, because actual success - even a little bit - at that level convinced people that he was a good manager and not a guy with a barely-above Sunday league CV that had been lucky enough to make friends with a maverick owner.

[Preveza]

Even with Sunday League Rep, winning the League 3 times and also the UCL, surely 35% is way too low. IRL, your reputation would be world class, no questions asked. The EPL is one of the, if not the most followed league in the world. Everyone would know your name after 3 league titles plus more trophies

[..Valhalla..]

17 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Your problem is the unrealistic start.

You shouldn't be selecting Man City with Sunday League Rep.

If you are wanting to start with Man City you should be selecting an appropriate reputation for that club then you wouldn't have the issue when you left.

This. Man City would never in a million years hire a manager with zero experience at the top level. So you kinda hamstrung yourself from the start. Why not just start as a high rep manager if you plan to manage a high rep club? Go on, say because it's unrealistic to lie about your experience

5 hours ago, Preveza said:

Even with Sunday League Rep, winning the League 3 times and also the UCL, surely 35% is way too low. IRL, your reputation would be world class, no questions asked. The EPL is one of the, if not the most followed league in the world. Everyone would know your name after 3 league titles plus more trophies

Also this. The amount of titles you've won would see you be probably the highest rated manager in world football, so I agree with your gripe. I still think you should have started with a higher rep

[Cougar2010]

5 hours ago, Preveza said:

Even with Sunday League Rep, winning the League 3 times and also the UCL, surely 35% is way too low. IRL, your reputation would be world class, no questions asked. The EPL is one of the, if not the most followed league in the world. Everyone would know your name after 3 league titles plus more trophies

While I can see your point it is more or less mute.

This is a case of unrealistic input = unrealistic output.  You can't expect SI to code for every possible input and in this situation coaching badges & experience are recommended to you based on the team you select.  If you choose to ignore these and continue down that path then you have to be aware of the possible consequences which the OP has found out.

Personally if I was in SI's position the easy solution is to just lock in the experience & coaching badges at an appropriate level when a team is selected and not let the user change them.

[westy8chimp]

5 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

While I can see your point it is more or less mute.

This is a case of unrealistic input = unrealistic output.  You can't expect SI to code for every possible input and in this situation coaching badges & experience are recommended to you based on the team you select.  If you choose to ignore these and continue down that path then you have to be aware of the possible consequences which the OP has found out.

Personally if I was in SI's position the easy solution is to just lock in the experience & coaching badges at an appropriate level when a team is selected and not let the user change them.

completely agree.. but what it shows is their code is fairly basic and linear i.e. start as non-league and regardless of success the code will limit you to a stepping stone progression. It takes away some of the 'dream' of a great cup or league run to quickly improve your stock and gain reputation.

[eple]

Sounds ridiculous, really.

Yes, City would not hire a Sunday league rep manager, but the game allows it, and it should require far less than what the OP has achieved for him to be considered one of the greatest manager of his time.

At the time of him winning titles and high rep cups his starting reputation should not matter any more because he has proven himself.

[marcMCFC1986]

I'm the OP.

 

I understand what you are saying about starting with a Sunday League rep with Man City not being realistic - but as others have said, SI allows it to happen. Also, I choose Sunday League reputation as I feel it is more challenging as the players have less respect for you.

 

Also, I stand by believing this to be an error in the game for two reasons:

1) In previous versions I have achieved similar success, from the same starting position, and could have walked into any job by this stage.

2) I am number 4 in the Worldwide Hall of Fame - above Pep, Paisley, Wenger, van Gaal, Capello etc. In fact, the only people ahead of me are Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho & Carlo Ancelotti. To be considered the 4th best manager of all time, but not good enough for Ipswich is frankly ridiculous. For the record, Roberto Martinez isn't even in the Top 20.

 

I also have done all the coaching badges up to, and including, Continental Pro License. 

[Baggie23]

I have a similar problem to this and am interested to see what people think as several people here seem to be saying its all about unrealistic starting setup at Man City.

In my case I have played six seasons (at the end of 6th anyway). I started with Sunday league reputation and have so far managed to get Salford to League 1 (pretty sure I won the cup when I was in the conference north as well. Cant remember what the none league one is called. FA Trophy or whatever). This season I expected to get hammered but somehow am lying in second with a couple of games to go. I am well aware however that I doubt I can take the club any further, I have had a LOT of luck in this season, I will get destroyed in the championship and I want a new challenge. There has also been a takeover and the new chairman will not give me any money etc. I have started applying for every job going but cant get anything. I have been offered 2 interviews. Sunderland, who are bottom of the Prem and PSV who are 2nd in Holland but these were when I was in League 2 and I didn't get the jobs. However, teams such as Blackburn (2nd bottom of League 1) and Bolton (League 2) will not even give me an interview. My manager rep is 1 and a half stars.

For me I think its just that the game struggles with sudden rises in stature. That's how it feels anyway. In real life the media is insane. Especially in England. A manager has a good run for a season and all of a sudden they become the next big thing and everyone raves about them. Look at Eddie Howe. He got Bournemouth promoted twice and everyone was talking about him as a future England manager when he had not even managed in the Championship at that point. He got offered the Burnley job and it didn't work out. I have also found the same issue with club reputation. I am in League 1 but can only get Conference National players to sign for me. I lose out on players to league 2 teams who when I look at the wages accepted by the players it is half what I had offered.

[never saint nor royal]

I have the same issue. Started off non league unemployed moved around, did my badges and at the beginning moving around based on successes in smaller leagues was fine. 

I then got a job at lorient and in my 2nd season I won ligue 1, coupe de France and got SF of CL yet my reputation didn't budge from 2.5 stars (50%)  and so now can't get shortlisted for any job that progresses my career 

[zebec]

I like enigmatic's comments above. 

A fair number of "Sunday League" guys actually become established managers in the real world.   Yes, some faster than others.   For some it might take 15 - 18 years of slowly clawing away in the profession and gaining acknowledgement as a competent club boss.  Others rise more like meteors flashing across the skies.   The Mourinho example above fits this amazing flash upwards (and what was Mourinho as a player?)   It should not matter what one selects at the game outset.  If a game manager has six or more years of verifiable successes, getting an interview ought to be easy.   Now, a club might turn one down due to that interviewee's playing style, relationship with the media, wage expectations, etc.  But struggling to get a look, an interview or spending much time unemployed would not occur. 

I am curious what number of points MarcMCFC1986 now has.  (focus  -- on those points )  Please share with us here your current game points.   And how that correlates to your rank within your nation and Europe.   If you have this much success in both England and European competitions already, then you are on this leaderboard of past and present managers.   Surely this number is much more relevant to a club looking to hire a new manager than what status a man had as a player prior to age 32 in life.   Check out Jogi Low of Germany's playing career.   Not much there eh?  Not too much as a club manager.  Yet when he steps down from the German squad after WC 2018 in Russia, he'll have bags of club offers even if he's not looking and wanting to spend 2-3 years doing nothing.   Low was roundly ridiculed by the pundits when J. Klinnsmann lobbied to win him to his pre WC 2006 staff as assistant manager.   Yes, ridiculed as wholly insufficient and an unnecessary hire.  Today?  There are lots of real life examples of this. 

If this SI game's intent is to mirror real life, then this is what is true in real life:  Personal success on the field between the ages of 15 - 32 has very little correlation to top flight management skills and successes.    See total flops like Stefan Effenberg in Germany.  Or the much more obvious (over now almost two decades) -- Lothar Matthaus.  On the flip side, ask yourself why a 'youngster' like that fellow at Hoffenheim is now the club boss.   Make no mistake, coaching at Hoffenheim (with a big salary and upscale prorated salary with successes) is high prestige, high upside now.  Hoffenheim is no backwater.   Who knew the name Ralph Hasenhuttl in the U.K. prior to the last half year?    What has he yet won?  (one prmotion in May 2015)  Yet what name is floated around right now as one to whisk over to the Premiership come July?

Thus, my take:  It should not matter what one chooses in the least at the outset, at gamestart.  1)  There is very little correlation between real life footballer success and real life club manager (or national team boss) success.  2)   Life is flexible.   A person's skill sets value in the real world marketplace fluctuates and can fluctuate mightily within just a year or less.   Example: Hasenhuttl.  Or Ranieri.  Claudio Ranieri was looked at as a emergency band-aid hire at Leicester City, yes?   Most Foxes fans were aghast at his hiring.  Now?   His only detriment to not getting more offers when his time at Leicester ends will be his age.   3)   A manager's merit for future jobs in this SI game ought to be closely tied to that numeric score, yes? No?  (not sure)  But then I ask, what's the purpose of that score and associated ranking?

(Note -- comments written prior to seeing MarcMCFC1986's second post in this thread)

 

[puffascruffowitz]

14 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Mourinho started the game as Bobby Robson's interpreter. Whilst he spent a good long while as an assistant before getting a managerial role, it only took four seasons of management and the one Champions League win before he was considered a world class manager. And if some maverick oligarch were to parachute their nephew from the Russian Sunday League into the manager's role at their new toy football club, that nephew wouldn't struggle to find job interviews afterwards if he won European titles rather than screwing things up.

A reputation system that doesn't guarantee that winning a Champions League earns a manager at least enough reputation to be considered for most top division sides, regardless of their starting point, isn't a good one. Success at a certain level should ensure a person reaches a minimum threshold as well as add points if they're already over that threshold

Same applies at lower levels where it might be more realistic for people to come from literally nowhere. Mark Warburton's experience before meeting Brentford's chairman during the filming of a TV program consisted of an unsuccessful four year spell of youth coaching at Watford and a bit of semi-pro football two decades earlier. But promotion from League One and a good spell in the Championship was enough to land him the Rangers job, because actual success - even a little bit - at that level convinced people that he was a good manager and not a guy with a barely-above Sunday league CV that had been lucky enough to make friends with a maverick owner.

This is spot on. Just have it be if you win a top 20 or so league and/or win euros or CL it should bring your rep up to a certain point automatically. It shouldn't really be that hard, and just do it regardless of your starting rep.

[Sunstrikuuu]

Manager backgrounds are currently limited to playing background and coaching badges.  So the game really struggles to represent managers who come from non-traditional backgrounds; say, scouting to scouting director to Director of Football to manager.  Reputation does, I think, need to be much more volatile for individuals (I think it's basically fine for institutions, like leagues and clubs).  Currently though managers don't get enough credit for overachieving or enough reputation hit for underachievement in my opinion.

[Fer Fuchs Ake]

I agree with Cougar about the fact that being the Man City manager with Sunday League reputation is unrealistic but it does seem strange that he has only 35% reputation despite being the 4th best manager. He has won the CL 3 times  with a team that has never won the CL before and also won one of the most competitive leagues in the world 3 times. He should be close to world-class. The principle of OP’s point is solid enough.

[Marabak]

Arsene Wenger was hardly a household name when he moved to Arsenal, so it's not really correct to say that it is unrealistic. And even if it is, if the game lets you as a basic starting point (no editing etc.) then it should be accounted for. Surely it is a case of "win competition X and rep gets boosted to at least level Y". Win the FA cup as a Conference manager and you would become a household name overnight. The game should account for this.

[Guest]

@marcMCFC1986 Do you know your actual repuation scores? These can be seen using the IGE if you have it or a third party tool such as Genie Scout.

As for the general subject of reputation there isn't a logical reason for you not having a very high reputation score based on your success, if you do check the true numerical value of your current rep & find that it's not in excess of 8000 then it does suggest that there is a bug in how your reputation score has accumulated over the seasons however findng the cause would require a number of saves covering your entiire time at Man City which understandably most people are unable to provide as that's either a lot of save data or exceptional forward thinking.

If it turns out that your current reputation score is in the elite bracket then it points to another cause, first being that the percentage value may be flawed UI & secondaly that when clubs receive a job application they are looking at an unexpected data point, either way that's easier for SI to test as it would just require a copy of the current save point & potentially one from just before you left Man City.

[Sunstrikuuu]

22 hours ago, Marabak said:

Arsene Wenger was hardly a household name when he moved to Arsenal, so it's not really correct to say that it is unrealistic. And even if it is, if the game lets you as a basic starting point (no editing etc.) then it should be accounted for. Surely it is a case of "win competition X and rep gets boosted to at least level Y". Win the FA cup as a Conference manager and you would become a household name overnight. The game should account for this.

When Arsene was hired by Arsenal, he'd been a manager for 14 years, won a league title and three domestic cups, made the Champions League semifinals and been publicly credited by George Weah as being responsible for his World Player of the Year award.  Not a good analogy, I'm afraid.

[Marabak]

21 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

When Arsene was hired by Arsenal, he'd been a manager for 14 years, won a league title and three domestic cups, made the Champions League semifinals and been publicly credited by George Weah as being responsible for his World Player of the Year award.  Not a good analogy, I'm afraid.

Ok, you have obviously read the Wikipedia article. Take my point and rewind it back one team.

[Sunstrikuuu]

2 hours ago, Marabak said:

Ok, you have obviously read the Wikipedia article. Take my point and rewind it back one team.

 

Sure.

When Arsene was hired by Nagoya Grampus 8, he'd been a manager for twelve years, won a league title and a domestic up, made the Champions League semifinals and had an approach by Bayern Munich turned down by Monaco before being fired.

When Arsene was hired by Monaco, he'd been an assistant and a very highly-regarded youth coach and he'd won the French first division as a player; he'd also done a pretty good job managing Nancy who at the time were completely broke and introduced a bunch of new ideas to French football, some of which he'd bring to England later.

When Arsene was hired by Nancy, he'd been a workaholic assistant manager, run a youth system as a player/coach and won the French first division as a player.

Sorry, I know you only wanted me to go back one team, but I figured it was worth going through his entire management history, just to make the point.

If anything, Arsene is a counterexample.  Before he took his first job in management, at a Ligue 2 side no less, he'd been a professional footballer and completed France's highest coaching badges; he'd also gone out of his way to take courses in English.  He also had an impressive track record as a youth coach and assistant manager, experiences that FM doesn't allow players to model.   Just because you remember the "Arsene who?" headline doesn't mean he was a nobody.

[Praetor Meles]

Just to add to this, Manager rep does seem to be accrued in an odd way.

 

Started unemployed, with no qualifications and Sunday League rep.  Got the Tranmere job when they were struggling in the Vanarama.  Started doing my badges.  As far as I can tell, the badges add 5-10% each time depending.  I won the FA Trophy and got promoted to League Two.  The FA Trophy seemed to add 10% to my rep...the lower league win nothing.  After a few years won League Two, then eventually got promoted to the Championship via the playoffs.  Again...no reputational change.  Lo, thinks I, it's only cups (although FA Trophy?) and national level leagues.  Fair enough.

 

So, eleven or so seasons in...I win Serie A (not with Tranmere!).  No reputation change at all.  My rep is stuck at 55%.  That's 45% for the badges, and 10% for the FA Trophy(!!!).  I have a friend who started a game on the same lines as me...he didn't have the good fortune to win a trophy (just winning lower leagues), but is studying for his final badge and he's at 40% (and expects to rise to 45%).

 

So...nothing at all for winning Serie A?  Seems a bit suspect to me.  Is there possibly a maximum for domestic success, and to exceed this you need to win in Europe?  This seems unlikely given the poster above's Man City experience.  Or maybe you get one-hit deals for winning a first domestic trophy, then one-hit for first continental, and it doesn't actually matter how many you go on to win?  Again...seems a bit odd.

 

Minor edit: Just won the U19 European Championships with Spain U19.  Again...no reputation change, although perhaps to be expected for this tournament.

[Per Annum]

Di Matteo has won the cl but was never in frame for an atletico style job. Schalke a step below. 

I find manager reputation too broken in the other direction. Sunday league rep can get you jobs in bottom two or three divisions rather than bottom one, and with a good interview you  can jump higher still. 

[doucong]

9 hours ago, Praetor Meles said:

Just to add to this, Manager rep does seem to be accrued in an odd way.

 

Started unemployed, with no qualifications and Sunday League rep.  Got the Tranmere job when they were struggling in the Vanarama.  Started doing my badges.  As far as I can tell, the badges add 5-10% each time depending.  I won the FA Trophy and got promoted to League Two.  The FA Trophy seemed to add 10% to my rep...the lower league win nothing.  After a few years won League Two, then eventually got promoted to the Championship via the playoffs.  Again...no reputational change.  Lo, thinks I, it's only cups (although FA Trophy?) and national level leagues.  Fair enough.

 

So, eleven or so seasons in...I win Serie A (not with Tranmere!).  No reputation change at all.  My rep is stuck at 55%.  That's 45% for the badges, and 10% for the FA Trophy(!!!).  I have a friend who started a game on the same lines as me...he didn't have the good fortune to win a trophy (just winning lower leagues), but is studying for his final badge and he's at 40% (and expects to rise to 45%).

 

So...nothing at all for winning Serie A?  Seems a bit suspect to me.  Is there possibly a maximum for domestic success, and to exceed this you need to win in Europe?  This seems unlikely given the poster above's Man City experience.  Or maybe you get one-hit deals for winning a first domestic trophy, then one-hit for first continental, and it doesn't actually matter how many you go on to win?  Again...seems a bit odd.

 

Minor edit: Just won the U19 European Championships with Spain U19.  Again...no reputation change, although perhaps to be expected for this tournament.

I like to play LLM as well.

IRL it is unrealistic to get a Vanarama offer for no qualifications and Sunday League rep. The game make this part unrealistic. If we go through other manager in Vanarama league, they all at least have a National A license if I remember correctly.

I was search for what National C licenses is but did not have a exact answer, as the license is not universal in all countries. If is stand for the lowest possible licenses, if should be a very basic 5v5 football licenses, surely it is very hard for you to apply for a 11v11 football team, especially when we have Sunday League rep. I feel  no qualifications and Sunday League rep even hard to apply for a primary school football coach IRL.

[doucong]

And I understand the OP is saying. The current system seems increase the reputation based on your previous reputation, like each trophy will increase a certain percentage. What make better sense is like no matter how low is your previous reputation, if you win a high profile competition (PL, ECL), your new reputation will at least be national (a floor level). Just imagine a rich guy buy a PL club and manage himself (no qualifications and Sunday League rep) and miraculously win the PL trophy, he will sure a very famous and reputable.

[Sunstrikuuu]

12 hours ago, Per Annum said:

Di Matteo has won the cl but was never in frame for an atletico style job. Schalke a step below. 

There was a strong perception that Di Matteo was a caretaker while the players essentially managed themselves (same with Avram Grant).  In addition, he was fired the next season after Chelsea played pretty indifferently.  So it seems to me that it'd be modeled as a big +rep followed by a big -rep.  For better or for worse, FM doesn't really have anything like players anonymously undermining managers to the press, which has been the bane of a fair number of managers.  I suspect that's the kind of thing that isn't doable for legalish reasons, like players not getting injured off the field or arrested or whatever.

[MrPompey]

The starting reputation selected by the FM'r is irrelevant in my opinion. if its allowed by the game then it needs to be catered for in game. To some extent it probably is since players of a top team may have little in game respect for the Sunday league manager iuntil he proves himself, as would fans and board until proven otherwise. It would likely increase likelihood of an earlier sacking

i'm with the OP that the success achieved in game in this instance should rapidly increase reputation. though not a management similie we could look at Vardy's real life football reputation increase following his move and success from non-league football. 

If the reputation is not increasing proportional to the manager's success then IMHO its a defect. It may or may not be easy to resolve but its still a defect

[SweatyBob]

Definitely something amiss here. In my game it wasn't that I wasn't being considered for jobs but that my chairman really didn't seem too bothered about keeping me.

Everton - Had qualified for CL 3 seasons running including 2 runs to the semi of the CL, 1 FA Cup win and a League Cup win. In my 4th year I won both the Premier League and CL. My contract was due to expire and I was offered a massive raise from 48k per week to 52k! Tried to negotiate up to 60k (Still fairly low) and negotiations crashed and burned. Add in that I was up around £200M over the last 3 years in transfer profits (largely thanks to Man.City paying £80M for Barkley!) then I can't work out why the board would be so reluctant to tie me down for a fairly meagre wage for a consistently successful manager.

And also, given my contract situation shouldn't there have been more clubs at least being rumoured with an interest in my services should my Everton contract expire? I'd really like to see a more aggressive approach from other clubs when it comes to sniffing round managers.

Incidentally one major manager move was Guardiola being replaced at City with.....Louis Van Gaal! The former Man Utd failure had not took on any jobs since his Old Trafford exit but City still stumped up around 200k per week for his wages. Unfathomable! FM still hasn't got to grips with manager reps and half realistic appointments.

 

[RoPS83]

Really enjoyed this conversation.

I agree that the game doesn't model a very common career path for managers in todays football, which is starting as a youth coach at a very young age and then perhaps progressing to be an U18 Manager and the next step being an assistant manager or a first team coach, before taking the first job a as a club manager. Managers/coaches who have succesfully gone through that path at good clubs can easily have a pretty good reputation in real life. In the game you have be an ex-pro player to have any reputation when taking your first job. 

I personally had an opposite experience to the OP when I started my first save in FM17. My starting experience was professional at local level, so a bit higher than sunday league, but in the star rating it said minimal, half a star (didn't check the numerical value from IGE). I took over at Coventry in League One and surprisingly managed to win the league my first season. Come the second season and midway through I started to get loads of job offers from great clubs like Valencia, Fenerbahce, Sao Paulo, River Plate, Hertha, CSKA and many more. Not top top clubs, but very respectable clubs anyway which I found being quite unrealistic. My star rating had bumped from half to two and a half stars in just 18 months. I started the save in beta so it's possible that things have changed since, but if not, it shows that in the game the progress of manager reputation could need some fine tuning in that aspect as well.

[Sunstrikuuu]

On 1/19/2017 at 11:12, SweatyBob said:

Definitely something amiss here. In my game it wasn't that I wasn't being considered for jobs but that my chairman really didn't seem too bothered about keeping me.

Everton - Had qualified for CL 3 seasons running including 2 runs to the semi of the CL, 1 FA Cup win and a League Cup win. In my 4th year I won both the Premier League and CL. My contract was due to expire and I was offered a massive raise from 48k per week to 52k! Tried to negotiate up to 60k (Still fairly low) and negotiations crashed and burned. Add in that I was up around £200M over the last 3 years in transfer profits (largely thanks to Man.City paying £80M for Barkley!) then I can't work out why the board would be so reluctant to tie me down for a fairly meagre wage for a consistently successful manager.

Been like this for a while.  I booted up my Roma save from FM2015; in seven years we've won the league four times and the Champions League three times and raised the bank balance from £50m to £650m.  I couldn't get more in contract negotiations than £49kpw, up from £45kpw, despite having six months to run.

[bucket]

On 13/01/2017 at 13:23, Baggie23 said:

I have a similar problem to this and am interested to see what people think as several people here seem to be saying its all about unrealistic starting setup at Man City.

In my case I have played six seasons (at the end of 6th anyway). I started with Sunday league reputation and have so far managed to get Salford to League 1 (pretty sure I won the cup when I was in the conference north as well. Cant remember what the none league one is called. FA Trophy or whatever). This season I expected to get hammered but somehow am lying in second with a couple of games to go. I am well aware however that I doubt I can take the club any further, I have had a LOT of luck in this season, I will get destroyed in the championship and I want a new challenge. There has also been a takeover and the new chairman will not give me any money etc. I have started applying for every job going but cant get anything. I have been offered 2 interviews. Sunderland, who are bottom of the Prem and PSV who are 2nd in Holland but these were when I was in League 2 and I didn't get the jobs. However, teams such as Blackburn (2nd bottom of League 1) and Bolton (League 2) will not even give me an interview. My manager rep is 1 and a half stars.

For me I think its just that the game struggles with sudden rises in stature. That's how it feels anyway. In real life the media is insane. Especially in England. A manager has a good run for a season and all of a sudden they become the next big thing and everyone raves about them. Look at Eddie Howe. He got Bournemouth promoted twice and everyone was talking about him as a future England manager when he had not even managed in the Championship at that point. He got offered the Burnley job and it didn't work out. I have also found the same issue with club reputation. I am in League 1 but can only get Conference National players to sign for me. I lose out on players to league 2 teams who when I look at the wages accepted by the players it is half what I had offered.

Totally agree mate. Rep is messed up. I started as Sunday league etc, no badges at Woking. Got them up to League 1 don't majority of badges you can do in those 4 seasons. Got fed up and resigned. Got interviews but no job offers in England. Had to go abroad to AZ of holland to continue. Stayed for a few months and then applied for Werder Bremen job. Got it and currently building rep up there. But still cannot get a job back in the prem or championship come to think of it.

[Baggie23]

Just an addition to my post from earlier about my Salford game. After applying for every Job going I finally got offered the Hibernian job in Scotland. At that point it was January, Salford were lying in 1st place in League 1 and Hibs were bottom of the premiership in their first season back since being relegated. I decided to take the gamble and move. It was the first job I had been offered and even though Scottish football is poor I wanted to test and see how it effected my reputation. Hibs historically are a fairly big club compared to Salford and even though the wage budget was not much above Salford's and the Scottish premier league not much better than League 1, I accepted. Initially you would expect some sort of boost in reputation when moving to a better club but there was none at all. I have just finished the season and I had an amazing start at Hibs going on an unbeaten run of 12 games at one point and only losing once (An unsurprising 4-0 hammering by Celtic) in my first 9 games. I finished the season in 3rd place. Only 4 points behind second and lost on penalties in the cup semi final to rivals Hearts. Again, in real life, that sort of turnaround by a manager would receive a huge amount of press attention in the UK and would be great for a managers reputation. But I have seen no change whatsoever. The game really only seems to judge you based on league and cup wins. Nothing else. Which seems really really strange. That's not how it works in football whatsoever. Success is judged I many different ways in real life but the game doesn't seem to be able to factor that in at all.

[marcMCFC1986]

I am the OP.

I started the save with Sunday League Reputation, managing Southampton. In my first season I finished 7th and won the Europa League - which means now, in my second season I am managing in the Champions League (so far, 4 games, 2 wins, 2 draws). I am also unbeaten in the first 11 Premier League games of the season.

My reputation status is still 'minimal', as it was when I loaded up the game with Sunday League reputation at the start of season one - having won a European Cup, and finishing 7th in the Premier League (only 4 points off 4th too).  

So, no improvement on this error! If they can't get this aspect right it really is going to be curtains for me and my time with FM! The whole point is to build your management reputation within the game, and they can't get it right - makes it such a waste of time! Especially if you want to complete some of the challenges, like winning the league in every country etc or other journeyman careers. This seasons game has been a complete waste of time and money for me!!

This is the (strategy game) equivalent of playing Theme Hospital but an error meaning you can employ any doctors - it is fundamentally flawed and means you can't progress!

[Spurs08]

2 hours ago, marcMCFC1986 said:

I am the OP.

I started the save with Sunday League Reputation, managing Southampton. In my first season I finished 7th and won the Europa League - which means now, in my second season I am managing in the Champions League (so far, 4 games, 2 wins, 2 draws). I am also unbeaten in the first 11 Premier League games of the season.

My reputation status is still 'minimal', as it was when I loaded up the game with Sunday League reputation at the start of season one - having won a European Cup, and finishing 7th in the Premier League (only 4 points off 4th too).  

So, no improvement on this error! If they can't get this aspect right it really is going to be curtains for me and my time with FM! The whole point is to build your management reputation within the game, and they can't get it right - makes it such a waste of time! Especially if you want to complete some of the challenges, like winning the league in every country etc or other journeyman careers. This seasons game has been a complete waste of time and money for me!!

This is the (strategy game) equivalent of playing Theme Hospital but an error meaning you can employ any doctors - it is fundamentally flawed and means you can't progress!

Everyone told you what to do - don't start with such an unrealistically low reputation. Regardless of your success it's going to be very slow progress. Think of it as people assuming that the success isn't down to you, but the Director of Football/the players/the set-up left in place from the previous regime. You're a nobody who somehow got the job (presumably either through a bribe or very good connections), other established clubs will still see other options as better. I've heard three years mentioned as the time by which you should generally see improvement, which makes sense.

[KingCanary]

45 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

Everyone told you what to do - don't start with such an unrealistically low reputation. Regardless of your success it's going to be very slow progress. Think of it as people assuming that the success isn't down to you, but the Director of Football/the players/the set-up left in place from the previous regime. You're a nobody who somehow got the job (presumably either through a bribe or very good connections), other established clubs will still see other options as better. I've heard three years mentioned as the time by which you should generally see improvement, which makes sense.

That just doesn't ring true to real life though. Look at managers like AVB or Mourinho - no real reputation before becoming managers but due to early successes they built reputations swiftly. It doesn't really make sense that a manager with a Europa League win in their first season would have minimal reputation.  

[Crispypaul]

Mourinho played professionally in the Portuguese league, though, was assistant at Porto, Barcelona and Benfica and managed Leiria before getting the Porto job.

Still way ahead of sunday league rep.

[KingCanary]

Yes but fm doesn't 

1 hour ago, Crispypaul said:

Mourinho played professionally in the Portuguese league, though, was assistant at Porto, Barcelona and Benfica and managed Leiria before getting the Porto job.

Still way ahead of sunday league rep.

Yes but fm doesn't allow for a career as an assistant. I honestly don't think a manager could win a European competition and be described as having a minimal reputation afterwards. 

[themadsheep2001]

3 hours ago, KingCanary said:

Yes but fm doesn't 

Yes but fm doesn't allow for a career as an assistant. I honestly don't think a manager could win a European competition and be described as having a minimal reputation afterwards. 

So FM should start locking the rep to the required level then. Add an unrealistic input, get an unrealistic output. Avoid this by locking starting reps to the minimum rep required for that level.

[Spurs08]

8 hours ago, KingCanary said:

That just doesn't ring true to real life though. Look at managers like AVB or Mourinho - no real reputation before becoming managers but due to early successes they built reputations swiftly. It doesn't really make sense that a manager with a Europa League win in their first season would have minimal reputation.  

Mourinho's already been covered. AVB was an assistant for close to a decade first. That is not "Sunday League Player" experience.

[KingCanary]

15 hours ago, Spurs08 said:

Mourinho's already been covered. AVB was an assistant for close to a decade first. That is not "Sunday League Player" experience.

And the fact FM doesn't allow for you to establish a career as an assistant. Regardless a sharp increase in reputation based on winning a major European trophy seems reasonable to me. Do you think any manager with a Europa League on their cv would have a minimal reputation? 

[Spurs08]

1 minute ago, KingCanary said:

And the fact FM doesn't allow for you to establish a career as an assistant. Regardless a sharp increase in reputation based on winning a major European trophy seems reasonable to me. Do you think any manager with a Europa League on their cv would have a minimal reputation? 

Which makes sense as it would take a huge amount of development time for a feature which would probably be quite boring and which few people would use. And yes, if they were hired in shady circumstances and people didn't really believe the success was down to them I could see it. The reason it doesn't happen is that in real life big football teams do not hire managers with no footballing or managerial experience.

[Guest]

@KingCanary have you checked your actual reputation scores?

[KingCanary]

It's not my reputation, I'm talking about one of the posts above. 

Fundamentally I get the idea that unrealistic input can lead to unrealistic output. For me though the onus lies with the game that allows that unrealistic input to make it work better rather than on the player to only put in something realistic. After all it is a computer game. 

[Cougar2010]

25 minutes ago, KingCanary said:

It's not my reputation, I'm talking about one of the posts above. 

Fundamentally I get the idea that unrealistic input can lead to unrealistic output. For me though the onus lies with the game that allows that unrealistic input to make it work better rather than on the player to only put in something realistic. After all it is a computer game. 

If a game had to account for every possible unrealistic input it would never get released.

By far the best way to deal with these type of situations is to create a closed system so that unrealistic inputs can't be used.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KingCanary said:

It's not my reputation, I'm talking about one of the posts above. 

Fundamentally I get the idea that unrealistic input can lead to unrealistic output. For me though the onus lies with the game that allows that unrealistic input to make it work better rather than on the player to only put in something realistic. After all it is a computer game. 

Your actual reputation is important to the original context of the thread yet I do not see you ever mentioning them. There are three reputation values in FM & it might help identify a potential issue if you were able to post the numbers, for all we know you could have a high rep score but a bugged text description.

Have you tried resigning to see what clubs are interested in hiring you to establish what level the decision makes in the game code see you at#?

[KingCanary]

2 hours ago, Barside said:

Your actual reputation is important to the original context of the thread yet I do not see you ever mentioning them. There are three reputation values in FM & it might help identify a potential issue if you were able to post the numbers, for all we know you could have a high rep score but a bugged text description.

Have you tried resigning to see what clubs are interested in hiring you to establish what level the decision makes in the game code see you at#?

The reason I haven't mentioned them is because it isn't my issue- I was picking up a point made by another poster. 

[Guest]

TBH those points form others just distract from the potential problem, what's more important are the facts from your save.

[marcMCFC1986]

I know what you're saying about an unrealistic input resulting in an unrealistic output...but please remember, this has not been a problem in the last 20 years of FM/CM! My reputation has always grown at a realistic rate in line with trophies/promotions won etc.

It is only this year that it has become a problem - hence its an error on FM17 which has ruined the game for me!!

[Guest]

Forget the unrealistic input conversation for now, it inevitably becomes a circular discussion.

There really is a need to establish the actual starting & current reputation values to assess the rep progression in your save, in addition the club rep & competiton expectations will be key reference points.

[Neil Brock]

There was a new system put in for FM17 to counter low starting rep'd managers at big clubs. Essentially the users starting rep would dramatically increase the first three years if they remained in the high profile job to enable them to be of a suitable reputation for said club.

What would happen is every year the user remains in charge they would increase by a percentage of the teams reputation.

So say Sunday league user with a reputation of 1000 (out of 10000) takes over Man City who have a reputation of 9000. After the first season, the difference between Man City's score and the user's is used as a total and then added to the users reputation (on top of any reputation boosts they'd get generally, so for winning titles, big matches, manager awards etc). That means at the end of the season the user has a minimum reputation of 4000. 

Starting the second season with 4000 and we'll assume Man City retain their 9000 reputation. At the end of the second season, because of the difference of 5000, 2500 is added to the user's score taking them up to at least 6500.

At the end of the second season, with the user on 6500 and Man City on 9000, half the difference is 1250 so that's added on again leaving the user manager with a reputation of roughly 7750, which is the level of a top-level manager. No more additions are made from this point aside from the usual (so competition results etc).

If for some reason that isn't happening in your game it's a bug, but we'd need to see the saves at the end of each season to look at the reputation levels and find out what's going on.