Brexit and FM17

[GSevensM75]

3 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

The dictionary disagrees with you.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/random

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/random?

Nope, you aren't reading the definition correctly for equal chances for each item.  Because it isn't a statistic for a start.....

[MAVFC9]

Just now, Arkim said:

I think it was mentioned that the outcome is decided quite early on in the game, possibly even at the start of the save.

If so, then it's a great addition just implemented extremely poorly. If we can't toggle it on or off in the setup as well as not being able to save and reload then this is gonna blow up in their faces IMO. 

[formerlyiab]

I think this is a poor idea that forces too much uncertainty into long term saves.  

If I play my usual Liverpool save and get 5 years in and all of a sudden  I can only have 4 non UK players in my squad that's when I start a new save. 

It's utterly ludicrous to introduce game changing uncertainty into games in this manner and it could happen from 2 seasons in to 10.

I wouldn't mind if they were implementing known future rules into the game even if I didn't like them, as that would be realism. 

Speculating about future political outcomes and massively changing on going saves as a result is unacceptable. 

[Arkim]

1 minute ago, MAVFC9 said:

If so, then it's a great addition just implemented extremely poorly. If we can't toggle it on or off in the setup as well as not being able to save and reload then this is gonna blow up in their faces IMO. 

I agree. A toggle like for attribute masking, first window transfer budgets, etc would have been the better route. Both sides satisfied. My 2 cents. 

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Yes, are you referring to where he said they spoke to politicians and people in Football ?

or the bit where he admits that the ramifications are endless

or the bit where he admits that the situation changes daily ?

Yeah, the same one where they admit that lots of research went into it.

And the one where they included "every possible outcome".

[scooter28]

Love the idea of this hats off to si for coming up with it

[alandlondon]

11 minutes ago, MAVFC9 said:

It's a great addition. As long as we can save and reload on a certain date to get a certain outcome we want, if it's already pre-determined as soon as the save is created then I can imagine an awful lot of people, myself included, being extremely annoyed at this.

Miles has already confirmed on twitter that you cannot reload a save game.  Its pre-determined.

[apsychoshow]

Wow. It's gonna be a tough experience, but I've expected this. Greetings for Miles and SI for bringing more reality to the game 

[TOADman]

Seems like a cool idea to me. FM might be the first game to offer any kind of simulation of the effects of Brexit - shame this wasn't available before the referendum...

It'll be fun to see how people's saves go after Brexit - will it make the UK leagues stronger, will UK players improve and/or go up in value? Conversely, perhaps it kills the popularity of the English league as star players prefer or have to play elsewhere, and the Premier league disappears into obscurity.

There seem like many scenarios that could eventually play out.

 

[formerlyiab]

Just now, apsychoshow said:

Wow. It's gonna be a tough experience, but I've expected this. Greetings for Miles and SI for bringing more reality to the game 

In what way is the game generating a political scenario that may never happen 'reality' 

[biffykins]

I like the introduction of this, definitely will make those first couple of years more important in terms of getting (young) players in prior to any change.

[herne79]

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Whether we like it or not, this is now part of FM17.  So if we start playing the game and don't at least plan for the worst case scenario, and the worst case happens, we only have ourselves to blame.  It could happen two years down the road, or seven, but whatever it is it gives us an extra dimension of gameplay to consider when making decisions.  Which I for one welcome.

I used to work for a major global banking organisation.  I was part of the team that helped prepare the bank for the "millenium bug" in the late 90's, and then part of the team that made plans for the UK dropping Sterling and adopting the Euro.  Millions was spent on that planning and preparation, and at the end of day neither happened.  Was it wasted money?  Well the money spent on my salary certainly wasn't () but overall no it wasn't wasted because contingency plans had to be made.  If either of those events actually happened and the Bank wasn't prepared, the Bank would have gone out of business.  Now apply that to FM17 and Brexit - plan for an eventuality that may not happen but if the worst does happen you won't go out of business. 

And that's the point - plan for the worst, hope for the best.

[MAVFC9]

2 minutes ago, alandlondon said:

Miles has already confirmed on twitter that you cannot reload a save game.  Its pre-determined.

Then IMO they've dropped the ball massively here and it's going to really annoy some people. Not being able to choose what happens is ridiculous. Honestly amazes me how they think it would be a great idea for everyone. If they cant make its implementation flexible, then they should've waited til next years release.

[apsychoshow]

1 minute ago, formerlyiab said:

In what way is the game generating a political scenario that may never happen 'reality' 

May. Well said.
It's a 50/50 situation, so why not put this on the game?

[eriktous]

2 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

In what way is the game generating a political scenario that may never happen 'reality' 

In the same way that not generating one that may happen is.

[formerlyiab]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Whether we like it or not, this is now part of FM17.  So if we start playing the game and don't at least plan for the worst case scenario, and the worst case happens, we only have ourselves to blame.  It could happen two years down the road, or seven, but whatever it is it gives us an extra dimension of gameplay to consider when making decisions.  Which I for one welcome.

I used to work for a major global banking organisation.  I was part of the team that helped prepare the bank for the "millenium bug" in the late 90's, and then part of the team that made plans for the UK dropping Sterling and adopting the Euro.  Millions was spent on that planning and preparation, and at the end of day neither happened.  Was it wasted money?  Well the money spent on my salary certainly wasn't () but overall no it wasn't wasted because contingency plans had to be made.  If either of those events actually happened and the Bank wasn't prepared, the Bank would have gone out of business.  Now apply that to FM17 and Brexit - plan for an eventuality that may not happen but if the worst does happen you won't go out of business. 

And that's the point - plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Nope it's a game I want to have fun.  

If all of a sudden I am restricted to 4 non UK players I would quit and start again. 

If it happened again after I had committed to another save I would probably stop playing at that point. 

[Just-Wool]

This sounds pretty brilliant and challenges the manager to think long term knowing that this is coming up and you don't know how it's going to mess with your plans. Just like how managers around the country are having to do right now. 

[Neil Brock]

There's a lot of different scenarios, and of course it'll happen between 2-10 years in save. Generally even playing FM bloody loads I don't think I've had a save go 10 years in quite a long time, so in my save game there's a chance I could never encounter it anyway. 

Or I could get it after two seasons. It's exciting!  

[pheelf]

I have to say that I'm torn about this decision to model the potential impacts of Brexit.

On the more positive note, I've always wanted the game to have a metric like that which exists in a game like Railroad Tycoon where you would have changes in the economy which impacted how you played the game. The concept was introduced into FM with league reputations and I feel that it adds a degree of realism in the sense that there are times when outside uncontrollable forces influence the decisions you make.

On the other hand, I fail to see how this can be an accurate model at all. As we live in such an interconnected world I don't feel that any one decision such as Brexit can determine the fate of a nation. Moreover, it's the combination of global forces which have a far greater impact and domestic policies which influence how a nation changes over time. Therefore in order to get a realistic model other global events would need to be included which starts SI down a slippery slope.

I must state also that I'm not satisfied with the way that this bombshell has been dropped. The day before the beta sees the announcement of an imposed game altering dynamic into the game. I can now perfectly understand the reluctance to reveal the features.

 

[eriktous]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Whether we like it or not, this is now part of FM17.  So if we start playing the game and don't at least plan for the worst case scenario, and the worst case happens, we only have ourselves to blame.  It could happen two years down the road, or seven, but whatever it is it gives us an extra dimension of gameplay to consider when making decisions.  Which I for one welcome.

I used to work for a major global banking organisation.  I was part of the team that helped prepare the bank for the "millenium bug" in the late 90's, and then part of the team that made plans for the UK dropping Sterling and adopting the Euro.  Millions was spent on that planning and preparation, and at the end of day neither happened.  Was it wasted money?  Well the money spent on my salary certainly wasn't () but overall no it wasn't wasted because contingency plans had to be made.  If either of those events actually happened and the Bank wasn't prepared, the Bank would have gone out of business.  Now apply that to FM17 and Brexit - plan for an eventuality that may not happen but if the worst does happen you won't go out of business. 

And that's the point - plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Interesting, but it will depend in a large part on what the competition is doing. If none of the other clubs are planning ahead, should you? If a hard Brexit happens, you end up having a big advantage, but if it doesn't happen you may end up having wasted so much resources on the planning that it will take you ages to make up the lost ground. Since it's so unpredictable, I think as much of a case can be made for one strategy as for any other.

[Per Annum]

Just now, pheelf said:

 

On the other hand, I fail to see how this can be an accurate model at all. As we live in such an interconnected world I don't feel that any one decision such as Brexit can determine the fate of a nation. Moreover, it's the combination of global forces which have a far greater impact and domestic policies which influence how a nation changes over time. Therefore in order to get a realistic model other global events would need to be included which starts SI down a slippery slope.

Why are we talking about fate of a nation? I thought the implementation of brexit to the game had a possible impact on squad registration rules?

[robertcornell68]

This seems very gimmicky to me. Plus, I'm sick of Brexit in real life. Now it's messing up my free time, too.

A lot depends on how the AI teams adapt. A human manager won't have too much trouble. Without forward planning a lot of AI teams will have 90% of their squad become ineligible overnight.

[reflection22]

I have to admit that while it doesn't bother me, I do find it very strange. The line from SI has always been 'when the rules change in real life, it will be in the game'. The rules have not changed regarding work permits for EU players in the UK and won't do for quite some time, if at all. For this to be randomly implemented into the game (despite no-one even knowing if it will happen in real life), represents a massive sea change in the previous policy of only implementing rule changes once they've been confirmed in real life.

I don't think this should have been touched until the impact of Brexit on football is known in real life. I can see why a lot of people will hate this.

[Lord Rowell]

2 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

Nope it's a game I want to have fun.  

If all of a sudden I am restricted to 4 non UK players I would quit and start again. 

If it happened again after I had committed to another save I would probably stop playing at that point. 

This will be fun, if you adopt a certain mindset. The uncertainty will add suspense - though that said I suspect, to help players, there may be various news items that will pop up giving the player some idea of what might be about to happen, as we would get the sense of IRL. Nevertheless, we're going to have to play and plan with an uncertain outcome in mind, its going to be like an evolving story and that really excites me.

If you don't want that element of uncertainty then fair enough. But in all honesty there are other games out there for you. FM has always strived to be as close to reality as possible - if you want fantasy then play a different game.

[CaptainSa]

So Miles has just confirmed on twitter that you can't opt out of the Brexit thing. This actually has me rethinking my pre-order, because I don't want to start a save and put hours and hours in and then suddenly I've got to sell half my players due to a hard Brexit. That would just completely ruin that save, and since Miles thinks a hard Brexit is the most likely outcome, I'm wondering if this is going to be the most likely outcome in the game as well.

[MBarbaric]

don't think even hard brexit will be sudden or anything. as in real life, i believe in game, you will have plenty of time to prepare yourself and start offloading any player unable to attain the work permit after the brexit. that is probably the reason why you can't reload as situation will start developing in 2017/2018 and then it will swing one or other way.

personally, i have no trouble with it and i think it will be a nice challenge. however, i see why some people might get upset and ditch the game altogether (although that is quite a childish reaction). It most certainly isn't SI's most desired option as they would probably prefere some switch before the save is started. unfortunatelly, i guess, they couldn't pull it off for technical reasons.

[alandlondon]

1 minute ago, Lord Rowell said:

If you don't want that element of uncertainty then fair enough. But in all honesty there are other games out there for you. FM has always strived to be as close to reality as possible - if you want fantasy then play a different game.

My issue is that 'then fair enough' means don't play FM :(.

This isn't being close to reality, this is political guess work.

[karax268]

I love this.

I've wanted some randomness into the game for a while and this delivers. At least in the UK.

What I don't understand is that there doesn't apear to be anything to toggle it on or off. It should really be an option a the start of the game.

[pheelf]

3 minutes ago, Per Annum said:

Why are we talking about fate of a nation? I thought the implementation of brexit to the game had a possible impact on squad registration rules?

The reason is because if they want to truly model the implications of Brexit then it's a bit more than just squad registration rules.

[formerlyiab]

2 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

This will be fun, if you adopt a certain mindset. The uncertainty will add suspense - though that said I suspect, to help players, there may be various news items that will pop up giving the player some idea of what might be about to happen, as we would get the sense of IRL. Nevertheless, we're going to have to play and plan with an uncertain outcome in mind, its going to be like an evolving story and that really excites me.

If you don't want that element of uncertainty then fair enough. But in all honesty there are other games out there for you. FM has always strived to be as close to reality as possible - if you want fantasy then play a different game.

Implementing game changes mid way through a save that bear no relation to the real world is not reality. 

 

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, alandlondon said:

My issue is that 'then fair enough' means don't play FM :(.

This isn't being close to reality, this is political guess work.

Its closer to reality than ignoring it and pretending Brexit isn't happening.

[treble_yell_:-)]

1 minute ago, Lord Rowell said:

This will be fun, if you adopt a certain mindset. The uncertainty will add suspense - though that said I suspect, to help players, there may be various news items that will pop up giving the player some idea of what might be about to happen, as we would get the sense of IRL. Nevertheless, we're going to have to play and plan with an uncertain outcome in mind, its going to be like an evolving story and that really excites me.

If you don't want that element of uncertainty then fair enough. But in all honesty there are other games out there for you. FM has always strived to be as close to reality as possible - if you want fantasy then play a different game.

 

That's a stretch. This is a game that sells on the idea that you can pick a team , any team and through your masterful football knowledge lead them to glory..........It's complete fantasy.

The feature appeals to a certain type of player, no doubt, it's just bizarre it's not a toggle for those who would rather not deal with this until it's actually a real thing in real life

[Sky]

It is interesting.  Just finished reading the article on DM and i'm surprised they went the randomized route, but I suppose it's part of the challenege.  And if sometimes top clubs can get relegated, or top players get moved around, then anything can happen.  Brexit is a complete uncertainty right now so I'm looking forward to this.

[Per Annum]

Just now, pheelf said:

The reason is because if they want to truly model the implications of Brexit then it's a bit more than just squad registration rules.

I'm not sure that they truly want to model the implications of Brexit, in a football manager sim.

They do want to model how the possible implications of Brexit will impact on squad registration rules. This in turn has a knock-on effect through dynamic TV money etc but that isn't Brexit related, its part of the game even if Brexit is taken out.


As an aside for CaptainSa's post, the article says at a random point you get told Brexit negotiations begin. You then have 1 year before any rules change. No instantly unplayable players

[formerlyiab]

3 minutes ago, CaptainSa said:

So Miles has just confirmed on twitter that you can't opt out of the Brexit thing. This actually has me rethinking my pre-order, because I don't want to start a save and put hours and hours in and then suddenly I've got to sell half my players due to a hard Brexit. That would just completely ruin that save, and since Miles thinks a hard Brexit is the most likely outcome, I'm wondering if this is going to be the most likely outcome in the game as well.

This is exactly my concern.  I work.  I have kids.  I don't want to invest weeks into a save for a random event that bears no relation to the current rules to ruin everything especially knowing there was an alternate outcome that my game didn't select. 

[eriktous]

2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

don't think even hard brexit will be sudden or anything. as in real life, i believe in game, you will have plenty of time to prepare yourself and start offloading any player unable to attain the work permit after the brexit

Sure, but as soon as the announcement drops, all clubs will be going that route, severely impacting the transfer market from the get go.

[scooter28]

8 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

Nope it's a game I want to have fun.  

If all of a sudden I am restricted to 4 non UK players I would quit and start again. 

If it happened again after I had committed to another save I would probably stop playing at that point. 

Its a good challenge that i would really like trying to do that myself tbh.I would not be quitting the game thats for sure

[Per Annum]

Just now, formerlyiab said:

This is exactly my concern.  I work.  I have kids.  I don't want to invest weeks into a save for a random event that bears no relation to the current rules to ruin everything especially knowing there was an alternate outcome that my game didn't select. 

Manage a non-UK team then

[jcw163]

22 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

It's utterly ludicrous to introduce game changing uncertainty into games in this manner and it could happen from 2 seasons in to 10.

I wouldn't mind if they were implementing known future rules into the game even if I didn't like them, as that would be realism. 

Speculating about future political outcomes and massively changing on going saves as a result is unacceptable. 

This, absolutely this.

Coupled with "headline" features like "You can add your face to the game now" and "There's more press conference questions" I think this might be the first FM\Champ I don't buy since, oooh, 1994?

FM16 with data updates'll do fine, if I want speculative fiction in my "realistic" strategy games I'll buy something from Paradox.

[Purple Bane]

I hear the tories main restriction on foreign immigrants will definitely apply to skilled workers paying massive amounts of tax yeah.

Good job all round. 

[CaptainSa]

Just now, Per Annum said:

I'm not sure that they truly want to model the implications of Brexit, in a football manager sim.

They do want to model how the possible implications of Brexit will impact on squad registration rules. This in turn has a knock-on effect through dynamic TV money etc but that isn't Brexit related, its part of the game even if Brexit is taken out.


As an aside for CaptainSa's post, the article says at a random point you get told Brexit negotiations begin. You then have 1 year before any rules change. No instantly unplayable players

You get told Brexit negotiations begin, yes. You then get told the outcome. Which would potentially mean I'd then have a year to sell most or a large part of my squad. That's save breaking, especially if Brexit is always going to happen which to be honest, is a stretch when Article 50 hasn't even been triggered.

[Per Annum]

1 minute ago, Purple Bane said:

I hear the tories main restriction on foreign immigrants will definitely apply to skilled workers paying massive amounts of tax yeah.

Good job all round. 

Good point well made tbf (apart from second line)

[eriktous]

3 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Its closer to reality than ignoring it and pretending Brexit isn't happening.

There's just no way of predicting that. Ignoring it may end up being closer to reality as it plays out than some of the possible in-game scenarios will be.

[formerlyiab]

2 minutes ago, Per Annum said:

Manage a non-UK team then

No.  I want to manage who I want to manage. 

[Sky]

2 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

This, absolutely this.

Coupled with "headline" features like "You can add your face to the game now" and "There's more press conference questions" I think this might be the first FM\Champ I don't buy since, oooh, 1994?

FM16 with data updates'll do fine, if I want speculative fiction in my "realistic" strategy games I'll buy something from Paradox.

People say this every year.  It still ends up becoming a top seller and top played on Steam. 

[mavericktangoII]

I really like the idea, it makes me want to play it more and hope I don't have to wait too long for my Brexit ! To those worrying about ruining their game, the changes only affect going forward it says. If you have foreign players in your side already they are exempt, all it does it changes your plans going forward. It's one more thing to adapt to 

[Per Annum]

Just now, formerlyiab said:

No.  I want to manage who I want to manage. 

Then you have to accept that there is a % chance that managing who you want to manage will result in fewer non-EU players in future, just like IRL.

Whether SI will get the % chance right is massive question, and I would be in favour of the optional toggle on the basis of just how difficult that calc is

[ism-scfc]

People moan about the strangest things?

I think it's great that SI have taken a risk (which this is) to try and incorporate something like this into FM. Personally, I think the more random events the better, as it makes the game more dynamic and makes each save feel different which should be what they are striving to achieve. 

I did wonder how they would approach this actually, but I was expecting it to be more of a static change, and probably not for a couple of versions time. This is much much better than that, I'm looking forward to see what happens in my save now!

[formerlyiab]

1 minute ago, Per Annum said:

Then you have to accept that there is a % chance that managing who you want to manage will result in fewer non-EU players in future, just like IRL.

Whether SI will get the % chance right is massive question, and I would be in favour of the optional toggle on the basis of just how difficult that calc is

I want a toggle too which begs the question as to why you're being so obtuse? 

[Per Annum]

2 minutes ago, mavericktangoII said:

To those worrying about ruining their game, the changes only affect going forward it says. If you have foreign players in your side already they are exempt, all it does it changes your plans going forward. It's one more thing to adapt to 

It does say there is a % chance all players will have to reapply for WP the day after brexit. I'd imagine this outcome is single-figure % chance though if not lower