FM: FM23: level of difficulty

[Marittiello1987]

Good evening guys,
    I'm still at FM18 even if I bought and played little FM19 and FM22 because even starting from lower divisions without experience and licenses I found 19 and 22 really quite simple (especially using offensive tactics with "gegenpressing").
I wanted to know if FM23 has improved in the level of difficulty compared to the last editions or has remained "quite simple" in your gaming experience.

Thank you.

[warlock]

1 hour ago, Marittiello1987 said:

I wanted to know if FM23 has improved in the level of difficulty compared to the last editions

I'd say so. AI is much more reactive during matches... unless you pay attention it's common to find yourself 2-0 up at half-time and losing 2-3 at the final whistle. Off the pitch, human managers still have a lot of advantages in squad building and squad management, but I think the changes in the match engine mean it's harder to build a tactic that will over-achieve all season.

[phnompenhandy]

32 minutes ago, warlock said:

I'd say so. AI is much more reactive during matches... unless you pay attention it's common to find yourself 2-0 up at half-time and losing 2-3 at the final whistle. Off the pitch, human managers still have a lot of advantages in squad building and squad management, but I think the changes in the match engine mean it's harder to build a tactic that will over-achieve all season.

This is absolutely bang on

[CARRERA]

While it’s true, that the AI seems to be more aware tactically, I don’t see too much of change in terms of difficulty. 
If you know how to set up a tactic and manage the squad well (fatigue, morale, …), it will be still easy to overachieve.

Probably pick the Demo and try out yourself. (If there is one yet) 

[Razal]

Still too easy. Won the league with arsenal by using the preset gegenpress and holidaying 

[SergeiG]

Still easy like FM22

[Jervaj]

Coming from 2021 I would say its notably harder. Of coruse overachieving its very possible, likely if you now what you are doing. But when I started in F2M2021 in all the saves I did with my favortie teamin the Spanish second division was able to get crazy streaks of victories and while that was decent for the league it wasnt oustanding. I was always ending first or at best second very close because there was often another team also dominating, both of us ending around the record points for the league. And I did this at first with tactics I learned were very unbalanced and shouldnt have worked with the players I had (the famous OP Gegenpressing).

 

Now in FM23 I feel that both the engine its much better and balanced and that the AI also reacts better tactically. I was able to promote directly but it was close never changelled the title and it didnt seemed like I was going to until well into the season when I hit a good streak of form that made me rise up. I had to adapt my tactic after the first few matches as I wanted to go with a high LOD for example playing with anything above a standard LOD proved very dangerous and I noticed my CBs werent fast enough to pull it off despite good overall quality, when before it was easy to make it work.

In my experience beating superior teams its possible but would see you playing more like a inferior team would in those cases and still it will be hard most of the time when before you could still go all out agressive agaisnt then and get pretty consistent results.

[Caning the Days]

I think the challenge SI have is how much to embed difficulty into the game, as opposed to leaving it optional to offer more wide appeal to different levels of players.

If you want to make the game harder, then you can self impose rules on yourself to play the game more realistically or just in a unique way.

Perhaps consider not using the player search and just rely on scout reports, or relying on an internal youth set up, or signing local players only.

If you have a great tactic, maybe try developing a completely different one, defensive long ball instead of a gegenpress etc.

[XaW]

Well, I'm struggling to beat an AI Man City due to Haaland being an absolute monster!

At least he is 33 now, so I hope he will retire soon...but he is just not declining, so I need to push on!

So, yes, I find it harder than before!

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Once you learn FM there is no difficulty and there will never be any. This is the curse of all management or simulation games regardless of genre. The thing that FM has going for it is that the game can still be challenging. r build a nation into #1 in the world. Is it difficult, no. Is it challenging, yes. Because it is going to take minimum 2 decades if not longer depending where you start. You have to micro everything and spend hundreds of hours in your real life year to accomplish the task. It is a trial. And it is challenging regardless of the difficulty.

England is a little more challenging since IRL world events. You can only sign 6 under 21 year old players each season. However the Prem just has too much money for a human player. So at first it is difficult because there are at least 6 world beaters in your league but after 3 or 4 years a human controlling finances in the Prem is pretty unstoppable then you are a world beater. 

More on England even if you start a custom English level 10 database save it doesnt make it more difficult just longer and more tedious so I guess more challenging. VNS/N basically plays almost exactly the same to any tier under it. The most challenging tier is usually VNN because you will be semi pro with all professional teams all with better rep so at first it is hard to sign and loan players in. But then on promotion you are professional and the next 3 tiers are very similar maybe with a pump for league 1 but if you win that you will most likely be a promotion team in the championship. And if you can stay up the 1st year in the Prem then the finances kick in and for the human they become unstoppable and its only a matter of time.

So I would suggest another nation and if you use a licensed nation/league the money will always be constant so even if you improve the league to #1 your league and tv money is the same as when you started. While if you do an unlicensed nation the league and tv mony will steadily increase.

 

[SergeiG]

1 hour ago, Caning the Days said:

I think the challenge SI have is how much to embed difficulty into the game, as opposed to leaving it optional to offer more wide appeal to different levels of players.

If you want to make the game harder, then you can self impose rules on yourself to play the game more realistically or just in a unique way.

Perhaps consider not using the player search and just rely on scout reports, or relying on an internal youth set up, or signing local players only.

If you have a great tactic, maybe try developing a completely different one, defensive long ball instead of a gegenpress etc.

It's like bringing your own salt to a restaurant. It's SI's job to make the game playable and challenging for all kinds of different levels of players.

[Marittiello1987]

15 ore fa, warlock ha scritto:

direi di si. L'intelligenza artificiale è molto più reattiva durante le partite... a meno che tu non presti attenzione, è comune trovarsi in vantaggio di 2-0 all'intervallo e perdere 2-3 al fischio finale. Fuori dal campo, i manager umani hanno ancora molti vantaggi nella formazione e nella gestione della squadra, ma penso che i cambiamenti nel motore di gioco significhino che è più difficile costruire una tattica che superi i risultati per tutta la stagione.

Thanks for the reply.
If I remember correctly, however, there was a patch from a guy who also wrote on this forum that improved the coaches' skills in managing men and in transfer market choices, I think it was called "smarter AI" or something like that.
I certainly remember that it was available for FM20, I don't know if it continued with subsequent versions. It wasn't the best for me because I really wanted a greater tactical difficulty as well as in management off the field. But if the "tactical" intelligence has improved it could be an interesting patch for this version, at least I think.

15 ore fa, CARRERA ha scritto:

Sebbene sia vero che l'IA sembra essere più consapevole tatticamente, non vedo molti cambiamenti in termini di difficoltà. 
Se sai impostare una tattica e gestire bene la squadra (affaticamento, morale, …), sarà comunque facile superare i limiti.

Probabilmente scegli la demo e prova tu stesso. (Se ce n'è ancora uno) 

I thank you for the answer.
I was asking for the experience of other players because due to work I don't have much time to play and therefore I wanted the feedback of other players to make the right decision as quickly as possible.
I will seriously consider trying the demo though, thanks again.

6 ore fa, SergeiG ha scritto:

Ancora facile come FM22

Thanks for the reply.
May I ask what kind of career are you doing? What type of experience/licenses did you initially choose for your coach?

Thank you.

3 ore fa, Jervaj ha scritto:

Venendo dal 2021, direi che è notevolmente più difficile. Di certo il superamento è molto possibile, probabilmente se ora quello che stai facendo. Ma quando ho iniziato in F2M2021 in tutte le parate che ho fatto con la mia squadra preferita nella seconda divisione spagnola sono stato in grado di ottenere folli serie di vittorie e sebbene fosse decente per il campionato non era eccezionale. Finivo sempre primo o al massimo secondo molto vicino perché spesso c'era anche un'altra squadra a dominare, entrambi finivamo intorno al record di punti per il campionato. E l'ho fatto all'inizio con tattiche che ho imparato erano molto sbilanciate e non avrebbero dovuto funzionare con i giocatori che avevo (il famoso OP Gegenpressing).

 

Ora in FM23 sento che sia il motore sia molto migliore ed equilibrato e che anche l'IA reagisca meglio tatticamente. Sono stato in grado di promuovere direttamente ma è stato vicino a non cambiare mai il titolo e non sembrava che l'avrei fatto fino a stagione avanzata, quando ho raggiunto una buona striscia di forma che mi ha fatto rialzare. Ho dovuto adattare la mia tattica dopo le prime partite perché volevo andare con un LOD alto, ad esempio giocare con qualcosa al di sopra di un LOD standard si è rivelato molto pericoloso e ho notato che i miei CB non erano abbastanza veloci per farcela nonostante la buona qualità complessiva, quando prima che fosse facile farlo funzionare.

Nella mia esperienza, è possibile battere squadre superiori, ma in quei casi ti vedrei giocare più come farebbe una squadra inferiore e comunque sarà difficile la maggior parte delle volte quando prima potevi ancora fare il massimo contro allora e ottenere risultati abbastanza coerenti.

Thanks for the reply.
So my understanding is that in your experience the game under tactical difficulty got better as it got harder. Well, that's the thing that mainly interests me, namely the difficulty at a tactical level of having to adapt to your opponent and how your opponent adapts to you over time and therefore always having to study new solutions to remain competitive.
Thing that in the old FM like 17 or 18 was much more marked and fun than the latest versions IMHO.

 

3 ore fa, Caning the Days ha scritto:

Penso che la sfida che SI deve affrontare sia quanto incorporare la difficoltà nel gioco, invece di lasciare che sia facoltativo offrire un appeal più ampio a diversi livelli di giocatori.

Se vuoi rendere il gioco più difficile, puoi autoimporre delle regole a te stesso per giocare in modo più realistico o semplicemente in un modo unico.

Forse considera di non utilizzare la ricerca dei giocatori e di affidarti solo ai rapporti degli scout, o fare affidamento su una configurazione giovanile interna o ingaggiare solo giocatori locali.

Se hai un'ottima tattica, forse prova a svilupparne una completamente diversa, palla lunga difensiva invece di un gegenpress ecc.

I thank you for the answer.
I am completely satisfied with everything you say.
SI should be more inclined to create a different level of play for newbies and more experienced players who have been using the game for several years.
I understand having to attract new potential customers and an excessive difficulty (see the old FMs) with a greater learning curve than the game would have resulted in more defeats for newbies who then perhaps would never have bought the game again, however, IMHO, the long-time player who could instead get bored if the game becomes just a continuous winning trophies without difficulty and "challenge".
However, I also agree with the user who says that it is a task to find this balance anyway in my lifesaver. I already practice almost all the (correct) indications/advice you gave me, thank you.

2 ore fa, XaW ha scritto:

Beh, sto lottando per battere un AI Man City perché Haaland è un mostro assoluto!

Almeno ora ha 33 anni, quindi spero che si ritirerà presto... ma non sta diminuendo, quindi devo andare avanti!

Quindi, sì, lo trovo più difficile di prima!

Thanks for the reply.
At 33 he still has those "physical" values....amazing!

[XaW]

5 minutes ago, Marittiello1987 said:

Thanks for the reply.
At 33 he still has those "physical" values....amazing!

Shows the reason for wanting high natural fitness in players!

[Marittiello1987]

6 minuti fa, XaW ha scritto:

Mostra il motivo per desiderare un'elevata forma fisica naturale nei giocatori!

Excuse me my English is not the best in fact to help me I use a translator rather than "amazing" I meant "incredible" (in my language) which should translate into English with a "not very real".
I hope I was able to explain the gist of what I meant in English.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Marittiello1987

[Jervaj]

hace 5 horas, Marittiello1987 dijo:

Thanks for the reply.

So my understanding is that in your experience the game under tactical difficulty got better as it got harder. Well, that's the thing that mainly interests me, namely the difficulty at a tactical level of having to adapt to your opponent and how your opponent adapts to you over time and therefore always having to study new solutions to remain competitive.
Thing that in the old FM like 17 or 18 was much more marked and fun than the latest versions IMHO.

Yes, indeed. Of coruse its not perfect and a player will always have advantages, specially with other parts of management (squad building and morale/fatigue management) if you know what you are doing as I said. But I find that at least you cant achieve outrageous results with tactics that shouldn't be working, specially if your players aren't that good. And there is indeed at least some need to adapt that before was mostly inexistant. The only thing you had to adapt to before was teams playing more defensively after they started to fear you due to your unexpected good results.

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 11/12/2022 at 18:15, CARRERA said:

While it’s true, that the AI seems to be more aware tactically, I don’t see too much of change in terms of difficulty. 
If you know how to set up a tactic and manage the squad well (fatigue, morale, …), it will be still easy to overachieve.

Probably pick the Demo and try out yourself. (If there is one yet) 

I agree with this, it is more of a challenge than the previous versions but if you are tactically aware then it can still be pretty easy. 

 

And as mentioned previously, we still have an advantage in the transfer market.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

11 hours ago, SergeiG said:

It's like bringing your own salt to a restaurant. It's SI's job to make the game playable and challenging for all kinds of different levels of players.

I agree with this, ironically I originally got into the series (and sports management games overall) to get more detail and challenge than I would get on PES or Fifa. I was always a CPU vs CPU guy so I never was into controlling the players but rather setting the strategy.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

12 hours ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

Once you learn FM there is no difficulty and there will never be any. This is the curse of all management or simulation games regardless of genre. The thing that FM has going for it is that the game can still be challenging. r build a nation into #1 in the world. Is it difficult, no. Is it challenging, yes. Because it is going to take minimum 2 decades if not longer depending where you start. You have to micro everything and spend hundreds of hours in your real life year to accomplish the task. It is a trial. And it is challenging regardless of the difficulty.

England is a little more challenging since IRL world events. You can only sign 6 under 21 year old players each season. However the Prem just has too much money for a human player. So at first it is difficult because there are at least 6 world beaters in your league but after 3 or 4 years a human controlling finances in the Prem is pretty unstoppable then you are a world beater. 

More on England even if you start a custom English level 10 database save it doesnt make it more difficult just longer and more tedious so I guess more challenging. VNS/N basically plays almost exactly the same to any tier under it. The most challenging tier is usually VNN because you will be semi pro with all professional teams all with better rep so at first it is hard to sign and loan players in. But then on promotion you are professional and the next 3 tiers are very similar maybe with a pump for league 1 but if you win that you will most likely be a promotion team in the championship. And if you can stay up the 1st year in the Prem then the finances kick in and for the human they become unstoppable and its only a matter of time.

So I would suggest another nation and if you use a licensed nation/league the money will always be constant so even if you improve the league to #1 your league and tv money is the same as when you started. While if you do an unlicensed nation the league and tv mony will steadily increase.

 

The game dont need a difficulty setting, modifiers? sure. Like the ability to increase or decrease injuries within the game. Also, there needs to be a direct attribute for our managers that influence the rate of tactical familiarity and team cohesion. Once those are good, the game gets easy. As is, they are pretty easy to grow if you understand training.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mars_Blackmon

[TheAwesomeGem]

It's pretty easy. Won Premier League 5 times and Champions League 5 times all in a row from 2026 with West Ham. Played Gegenpressing and bought quality young players to build the team with along with decent staffs. Injuries are lacking and AI squad management is extremely bad. It's just tough the first 3 seasons. I would consider FM 2017 the hardest and FM 2021 the second hardest from recent memories.

[anagain]

On 11/12/2022 at 21:28, Marittiello1987 said:

Good evening guys,
    I'm still at FM18 even if I bought and played little FM19 and FM22 because even starting from lower divisions without experience and licenses I found 19 and 22 really quite simple (especially using offensive tactics with "gegenpressing").
I wanted to know if FM23 has improved in the level of difficulty compared to the last editions or has remained "quite simple" in your gaming experience.

Thank you.

I am playing as MTK Budapest, a club relegated from the top flight and so finding themselves in the 2nd tier at game start. They have a good academy and good players. 

I am expected to win every game and play a very attacking 4231. I still find it very hard to break down stubborn defences. The opposition can also regularly go up the other end and kill me with counters.

Fm has often had an issue with outsiders getting such a morale boost that beating them with strong favourites is hard. I don't think my experience is that though. They just know how to defend deep and break fast and efficiently.

This is the new engine at work, imo.

I am still top of my division but it is far from a walkover. Like it might have been before.

Making the game 'harder' is never going to easy. Players will always have an advantage over the AI, but I do think it is better so far. I have only done half a season, mind. 

As others have said, imposing rules on oneself can never be a bad thing. I haven't used player search in about 15 years. I don't dl tactics.

Someone mentioned the demo. I would suggest it a good idea to check it out on Steam. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by anagain

[sthptngomad76]

It's harder than FMs 2020-22. I'm sure there will be players who can still produce unbeaten seasons (like with every edition really), but like others have noted, you can't just effortlessly click and win any more with any team and the same OP tactic, you need to react.

Gegenpress still is a meta tactic, but not quite as it once was- there seems to be more paths to success now. I am really enjoying it for the first time in many editions, I hope it stays that way!

Edited December 13, 2022 by sthptngomad76

[Speedyol]

There are so many aspects to this game.  But winning matches is VERY easy.. its like 100% guarantee if you just reload every time you loose you will always win. Save/Reload is a function the game has buildt in, its not a cheat. Why not use it to your advantage? Same goes for long term injuries, just reload when it happens.

  

20 hours ago, SergeiG said:

It's like bringing your own salt to a restaurant. It's SI's job to make the game playable and challenging for all kinds of different levels of players.

Not using Save/reload is like bringing your own salt too.. If SI made a Iron man mode then it would be a valid way of playing.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Speedyol

[Marittiello1987]

31 minuti fa, Speedyol ha scritto:

Ci sono così tanti aspetti in questo gioco. Ma vincere le partite è MOLTO facile .. è come una garanzia del 100% se ricarichi ogni volta che perdi vincerai sempre. Salva/Ricarica è una funzione integrata nel gioco, non è un trucco. Perché non usarlo a tuo vantaggio? Lo stesso vale per gli infortuni a lungo termine, basta ricaricare quando succede.

  

Non usare Salva / ricarica è come portare anche il tuo sale .. Se SI creasse una modalità Iron man, sarebbe un modo valido di giocare.

I don't like reloading when I lose a game or when I have a player injury, thanks anyway for the reply and for the advice.

[SergeiG]

1 hour ago, Speedyol said:

There are so many aspects to this game.  But winning matches is VERY easy.. its like 100% guarantee if you just reload every time you loose you will always win. Save/Reload is a function the game has buildt in, its not a cheat. Why not use it to your advantage? Same goes for long term injuries, just reload when it happens.

  

Not using Save/reload is like bringing your own salt too.. If SI made a Iron man mode then it would be a valid way of playing.

You don't actually need to save scum to win in this game, most of it feels like click and win anyway, It's not like Frostpunk or Xcom on hardest difficulties, especially for players that playing this game for 20 years.

[Speedyol]

4 hours ago, SergeiG said:

You don't actually need to save scum to win in this game, most of it feels like click and win anyway, It's not like Frostpunk or Xcom on hardest difficulties, especially for players that playing this game for 20 years.

You just said the thing you where against earlier... "you can self impose rules on yourself to play the game more realistically" ... 

Its a self imposed rule to not save scum. Its allowed to save scum and its possible without mods or cheats...

Why do you contradict yourself? "to say or do something that is opposite or very different in meaning to something else that one said or did earlier."

[SergeiG]

40 minutes ago, Speedyol said:

You just said the thing you where against earlier... "you can self impose rules on yourself to play the game more realistically" ... 

Its a self imposed rule to not save scum. Its allowed to save scum and its possible without mods or cheats...

Why do you contradict yourself? "to say or do something that is opposite or very different in meaning to something else that one said or did earlier."

Because I don't find "recruit mode" to be fun.

 

I don't understand why difficulty levels is such a ridiculous request to some players. Every other game got it. Do you have low expectations from everything in life?

Imagine if the DEVS of CIV would tell players they should set boundaries for themselves to make the game more challenging instead of making difficulty levels. The CIV community will lose it.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, SergeiG said:

Every other game got it

I have several games in my library that don't.  For example, World of Warcraft, Euro Truck Simulator and Motorsport Manager to name just 3.

Anyway, as you find the game so easy, what would be far more valuable for the devs (and perhaps others who don't find it as easy) would be if you and others like you detail exactly how you play the game rather than just "still easy like FM22".  Constructive feedback like that could actually be very useful.

For example, do you play the game in a realistic manner?  Do you simply load up the latest OP tactic and have at it?  What style of football do you tend to use?  Do you holiday seasons or past each match?  Do you use an instant result mod?  How do you deal and interact with your players?  How do you treat the transfer market?  How do you watch and manage matches?  What aspects do you delegate to your staff?  How do you set up your games (leagues loaded, attributes on/off, manager's badges etc)?  Just a few examples, there are plenty of other aspects.

I'm not asking you to answer me here, merely saying that perhaps some constructive feedback in terms of what you do and how you play the game might be valuable.

[SergeiG]

27 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I have several games in my library that don't.  For example, World of Warcraft, Euro Truck Simulator and Motorsport Manager to name just 3.

Anyway, as you find the game so easy, what would be far more valuable for the devs (and perhaps others who don't find it as easy) would be if you and others like you detail exactly how you play the game rather than just "still easy like FM22".  Constructive feedback like that could actually be very useful.

For example, do you play the game in a realistic manner?  Do you simply load up the latest OP tactic and have at it?  What style of football do you tend to use?  Do you holiday seasons or past each match?  Do you use an instant result mod?  How do you deal and interact with your players?  How do you treat the transfer market?  How do you watch and manage matches?  What aspects do you delegate to your staff?  How do you set up your games (leagues loaded, attributes on/off, manager's badges etc)?  Just a few examples, there are plenty of other aspects.

I'm not asking you to answer me here, merely saying that perhaps some constructive feedback in terms of what you do and how you play the game might be valuable.

I opened enough treads about it already with feedback, pictures and all that, sadly most people on this forum think that if you don't play a non league team you are playing the game the wrong way.

[herne79]

20 minutes ago, SergeiG said:

I opened enough treads about it already with feedback, pictures and all that, sadly most people on this forum think that if you don't play a non league team you are playing the game the wrong way.

Obviously I'm not going to flick through all of your posts lol however just from the first couple of pages of your activity you:

Play as Man Utd (nothing wrong with that, different levels of team have different pressures);

You offer advice on how to bypass offers in order to cancel transfers;

You're "99%" successful in getting young players to sack their agents if they come to you asking for a pay rise after breaking into the first team;

You like to stack older players with good personalities just to use them as tutors;

Apparently Determination doesn't matter.

I wonder what else you do.  I'm really not trying to pick on you here but can't you see how some of the things you do in game aren't actually in the spirit of the game and such unrealistic inputs are helping to make things easier for you?  Yes there are most certainly some aspects of the game which have room for improvement (AI squad building for example) but you can't just point the finger of blame at the game when you're exploiting certain aspects of it.

[SergeiG]

43 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Obviously I'm not going to flick through all of your posts lol however just from the first couple of pages of your activity you:

Play as Man Utd (nothing wrong with that, different levels of team have different pressures);

You offer advice on how to bypass offers in order to cancel transfers;

You're "99%" successful in getting young players to sack their agents if they come to you asking for a pay rise after breaking into the first team;

You like to stack older players with good personalities just to use them as tutors;

Apparently Determination doesn't matter.

I wonder what else you do.  I'm really not trying to pick on you here but can't you see how some of the things you do in game aren't actually in the spirit of the game and such unrealistic inputs are helping to make things easier for you?  Yes there are most certainly some aspects of the game which have room for improvement (AI squad building for example) but you can't just point the finger of blame at the game when you're exploiting certain aspects of it.

Seems like a realistic approach to me, most of my squad is young-ish and I like keeping some older players around, especially if they got great personalities and mental stats and of course, good skill level. Bruno Fernandes is one example, he is going to be 33 in 3 months and he is still me best AMC and I believe he helped to shape this guy in to a great player:

 

Apart from Bruno my oldest player now is Marcus Rashford(turning 30 in a few months and also a key player for me), as De Gea retired at the end of last season and I sold Jose Gaya who turned 31.

But I don't horde old players unless they got excellent personalities like model citizen or model professional(like I did with Eriksen, I kept him around as long as I could because he is a model citizen)

[anagain]

12 hours ago, Speedyol said:

There are so many aspects to this game.  But winning matches is VERY easy.. its like 100% guarantee if you just reload every time you loose you will always win. Save/Reload is a function the game has buildt in, its not a cheat. Why not use it to your advantage? Same goes for long term injuries, just reload when it happens.

  

Not using Save/reload is like bringing your own salt too.. If SI made a Iron man mode then it would be a valid way of playing.

Its not a cheat, per se, because its a single player game. Not against others, anyway. I would see it as cheating myself.

What I don't like is a situation where people would brag on a forum that they've just won, for example, the PL with a 100% record. Hard to know for certain, I know, but I just can't see the fun in reloading anyway FM anyway.

Must admit I've done it in Rimworld when something bizarre happens, but my players don't die in FM. 😁

Edited December 13, 2022 by anagain

[Teferi]

It's still easy to overachieve, just not to a level of absurdity that was possible in previous editions.

In both FM21 and 22 I was able to win the Champions League with Everton in the second season, using mostly youth prospects and the mediocre players who were already at the club. 

In FM23 you can still qualify for the CL with a midtable club pretty easily, which is still massively overachieving, but it seems a bit harder to win trophies that you should never be winning in a million years.

[Platinum]

On 12/12/2022 at 12:03, XaW said:

At least he is 33 now, so I hope he will retire soon...but he is just not declining, so I need to push on!

 

I wouldn't bet on it! He will likely have another 3 to 4 years at the top level, unless he gets injuries

[XaW]

10 hours ago, Platinum said:

I wouldn't bet on it! He will likely have another 3 to 4 years at the top level, unless he gets injuries

Yeah, that's my fear. Just going to stick with it and hope to outlast him.  

[Michael Sant]

Difficulty is very much subjective. For me the tactic side of the game is a weakness, but my squad building is tremendous. At a certain point I can build a squad precise enough to make my terrible tactics work (not necessarily stronger than every other team, but very specialised).

In terms of actual difficulty levels for the game, you have to remember that most other games create difficulty through either giving the AI cheats or scripting certain elements. Some people might value that in the FM series, but its not exactly something that translates well that 1 gold coin for you is on normal, 1 gold coin for the AI, on hard its 2, on very hard its 3 and on extreme its 5. We don't have the dials we can turn like a lot of games where difficulty = health sponge & 1 shot mechanics. 

FM gets enough accusations of giving the AI cheats & scripting without actually doing this to make the game harder through difficulty levels. I don't think most people have ever really put a finer point on what difficulty levels for FM would be. Should it be something like your players have a % modifier applied in the ME to miss passes, shots, tackles, saves etc? If so, then there's a serious argument about whether 10 finishing, 10 passing etc is really 10 anymore. Should the AI actually be given a cheat so when you set-up your tactics the game spends a bit of time simulating approaches until it finds one that works? On normal its 0 but on hard the AI gets 5 cracks at simulating the match with different tactics to find out what beats you before it actually starts. Should the AI just be given mega money to blow you out of the water in the transfer market? Just dump CA on the opposition players to make them 20CA better when facing you?

The issue I'd see with most attempts to impose a difficulty level on FM is it would shatter the understandings we currently have across the game. Feature requests are always welcome, but for difficulty levels there are so many considerations because you have to remember that in FM you're always getting the full weight the AI can bring to bear in each match as it is. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, Michael Sant said:

Difficulty is very much subjective. For me the tactic side of the game is a weakness, but my squad building is tremendous. At a certain point I can build a squad precise enough to make my terrible tactics work (not necessarily stronger than every other team, but very specialised).

In terms of actual difficulty levels for the game, you have to remember that most other games create difficulty through either giving the AI cheats or scripting certain elements. Some people might value that in the FM series, but its not exactly something that translates well that 1 gold coin for you is on normal, 1 gold coin for the AI, on hard its 2, on very hard its 3 and on extreme its 5. We don't have the dials we can turn like a lot of games where difficulty = health sponge & 1 shot mechanics. 

FM gets enough accusations of giving the AI cheats & scripting without actually doing this to make the game harder through difficulty levels. I don't think most people have ever really put a finer point on what difficulty levels for FM would be. Should it be something like your players have a % modifier applied in the ME to miss passes, shots, tackles, saves etc? If so, then there's a serious argument about whether 10 finishing, 10 passing etc is really 10 anymore. Should the AI actually be given a cheat so when you set-up your tactics the game spends a bit of time simulating approaches until it finds one that works? On normal its 0 but on hard the AI gets 5 cracks at simulating the match with different tactics to find out what beats you before it actually starts. Should the AI just be given mega money to blow you out of the water in the transfer market? Just dump CA on the opposition players to make them 20CA better when facing you?

The issue I'd see with most attempts to impose a difficulty level on FM is it would shatter the understandings we currently have across the game. Feature requests are always welcome, but for difficulty levels there are so many considerations because you have to remember that in FM you're always getting the full weight the AI can bring to bear in each match as it is. 

The game dont need a difficulty setting, modifiers? sure. Like the ability to increase or decrease injuries within the game. Also, there needs to be a direct attribute for our managers that influence the rate of tactical familiarity and team cohesion. Once those are good, the game gets easy. As is, they are pretty easy to grow if you understand training.

[phnompenhandy]

4 hours ago, Renyy said:

Isn't that exactly what manager license and prior experience is? Admittedly I just max mine out because even at max I just don't think man management is a good enough part of the game to bother with more than I absolutely need, but before I did this I seem to remember starting with no experience straight at PSG for example would be nearly impossible. No one respecting you, team talks always going wrong etc. If that's not a difficulty setting what is. 

I'm one of a crowd of lower league managers that does this. We start out with no coaching quals and Sunday League experience. I even ratchet it up and put all my 'spare' attribute points into Adaptability so that all other categories are 1. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Yes, the players ignore you in talks, but winning overcomes that. But this is with a lower league team that might, theoretically, employ an unqualified head coach. I'm sure it would be extra difficult with PSG, but in real life it would never happen.

One way to make the game more difficult would be to take away access to certain data, such as the player search screen. Make it harder and more realistic to build a strong squad.

The key weaknesses that make the game easy are aspects the game as a whole urgently needs to further improve.

1. The default tactics - make Gegenpressing have a real impact on player condition and make low condition have a real effect. Players who are exhausted need to slow down, make bad decisions, get injured, in match, and in the longer term be more susceptible to injuries through the week.

2. Squad building. The AI needs to be far better at building, maintaining and refreshing squads over the long term.

If SI could do that, a 'difficulty setting' might involve turning those options on or off when setting up a new save.

[phnompenhandy]

10 minutes ago, Renyy said:

I'd love a game version made for attribute masking. And I don't mean the silly stuff we already have, but an actual complete erasure of front end attributes. It'd be sick to have to attend games to scout players, listen to coaches, specialise training and review them to learn about players and making your mind up on your next line up, rather than just opting for the best attributes every time. I know there's skins for that, but reality is right now the game doesn't have the systems in place for such a save. Key misses/flaws being attending games doesn't increase your player knowledge, star ratings being ****, training rating being a complacency stat rather than performance and training progress only updating once a month. Give us this type of mode and it would revolutionise the game and make it way more difficult, and for players that don't wanna play that way all these features would just make the game better anyway. 

On the player search thing, I never got the scouting packages introduction. Like I can just pay 50k the 2-3 months a year I search for players and have access to 99,99% of every player in the world? I used to love the part of the game that was building your scouting team and world knowledge. Now all of that is pointless. Also is that the price SI takes for their database they license out to Everton and stuff? Doubt it, but kinda funny to think about the similarity.

I don't use the scouting stuff because my career is an 'Academy Challenge'. I ONLY refresh my squad via my academy intake - now that's hard! And I follow people on YouTube etc who play with attribute-hidden skins and have to find players the long way. Those are great to watch. Both points bring to my main stance on this issue:  there ARE hard settings in the game - you just have to set your own limitations. But I agree many FM players are unaware of them and these challenges could and should be built into options to set up a new savegame.

[SergeiG]

9 hours ago, Michael Sant said:

Difficulty is very much subjective. For me the tactic side of the game is a weakness, but my squad building is tremendous. At a certain point I can build a squad precise enough to make my terrible tactics work (not necessarily stronger than every other team, but very specialised).

In terms of actual difficulty levels for the game, you have to remember that most other games create difficulty through either giving the AI cheats or scripting certain elements. Some people might value that in the FM series, but its not exactly something that translates well that 1 gold coin for you is on normal, 1 gold coin for the AI, on hard its 2, on very hard its 3 and on extreme its 5. We don't have the dials we can turn like a lot of games where difficulty = health sponge & 1 shot mechanics. 

FM gets enough accusations of giving the AI cheats & scripting without actually doing this to make the game harder through difficulty levels. I don't think most people have ever really put a finer point on what difficulty levels for FM would be. Should it be something like your players have a % modifier applied in the ME to miss passes, shots, tackles, saves etc? If so, then there's a serious argument about whether 10 finishing, 10 passing etc is really 10 anymore. Should the AI actually be given a cheat so when you set-up your tactics the game spends a bit of time simulating approaches until it finds one that works? On normal its 0 but on hard the AI gets 5 cracks at simulating the match with different tactics to find out what beats you before it actually starts. Should the AI just be given mega money to blow you out of the water in the transfer market? Just dump CA on the opposition players to make them 20CA better when facing you?

The issue I'd see with most attempts to impose a difficulty level on FM is it would shatter the understandings we currently have across the game. Feature requests are always welcome, but for difficulty levels there are so many considerations because you have to remember that in FM you're always getting the full weight the AI can bring to bear in each match as it is. 

I agree but difficulty levels are optional and can be restored to normal, So the cheated players can always choose not to use them. Like attribute masking for example, it makes the game a bit more difficult and its totally optional.

8 hours ago, Renyy said:

I can fully believe that you don't intentionally do this, but there's lots of inconsistencies in how the game handles real manager vs AI manager. Like say you bid for a youngster and the AI declines. Take over that club with a second manager, send the same bid over and now suddenly the board steps in and accepts for you at half the price. Or how in FM23 specifically, staff of yours seem to always decline a new contract when presented with another club's offer, to the point of leaving a job and relationship they cherish for half the pay, unless you talk to them and ask them to stay. Words speak louder than actions I guess. And that's maybe the biggest shortcoming of FM. It's very player vs mechanics driven. Instead of doing the most sensible thing and 8 times out of 10 have that work out ok, you gotta learn all these quirks to it, and if you don't know them it comes across as against you. Especially if you don't have the experience to get good results regardless. 

The logic could use some work here, and I also think the game could do a better job educating the player. For instance one I've come across quite a bit in recent years is players complaining about the agent being open to negotiate, but needing to be convinced with promises to enter contract negotiations. Give him captainship, improve facilities, coaches etc. and the agent just says "Nah, we good". Why can't they just tell you what they want? There's only so many options and instead of just being given a hint I had to crash out on 4 players before discovering for myself that all anyone ever wants is someone else of the same nationality to be bought to make them feel better. Which also shouldn't be the one and only answer. 

Or when your assistant gives you tactical advice prior to a game like playing centrally. Ok that's great that you think that will help us the next game, but why will it help us? Give me the tools to learn to do better on my own next time. A good start would be letting us access the most recent tooltips. It's so irritating being half way through reading one and it just disappears. 

Isn't that exactly what manager license and prior experience is? Admittedly I just max mine out because even at max I just don't think man management is a good enough part of the game to bother with more than I absolutely need, but before I did this I seem to remember starting with no experience straight at PSG for example would be nearly impossible. No one respecting you, team talks always going wrong etc. If that's not a difficulty setting what is. 

That's not true for sure, no in my game at least.

I think the problem is the reputation system in this game make the AI do stupid stuff like agree to a worse contract elsewhere based on that team or manager rep.

[Mcfc1894]

On 14/12/2022 at 22:58, Michael Sant said:

Difficulty is very much subjective. For me the tactic side of the game is a weakness, but my squad building is tremendous. At a certain point I can build a squad precise enough to make my terrible tactics work (not necessarily stronger than every other team, but very specialised).

In terms of actual difficulty levels for the game, you have to remember that most other games create difficulty through either giving the AI cheats or scripting certain elements. Some people might value that in the FM series, but its not exactly something that translates well that 1 gold coin for you is on normal, 1 gold coin for the AI, on hard its 2, on very hard its 3 and on extreme its 5. We don't have the dials we can turn like a lot of games where difficulty = health sponge & 1 shot mechanics. 

FM gets enough accusations of giving the AI cheats & scripting without actually doing this to make the game harder through difficulty levels. I don't think most people have ever really put a finer point on what difficulty levels for FM would be. Should it be something like your players have a % modifier applied in the ME to miss passes, shots, tackles, saves etc? If so, then there's a serious argument about whether 10 finishing, 10 passing etc is really 10 anymore. Should the AI actually be given a cheat so when you set-up your tactics the game spends a bit of time simulating approaches until it finds one that works? On normal its 0 but on hard the AI gets 5 cracks at simulating the match with different tactics to find out what beats you before it actually starts. Should the AI just be given mega money to blow you out of the water in the transfer market? Just dump CA on the opposition players to make them 20CA better when facing you?

The issue I'd see with most attempts to impose a difficulty level on FM is it would shatter the understandings we currently have across the game. Feature requests are always welcome, but for difficulty levels there are so many considerations because you have to remember that in FM you're always getting the full weight the AI can bring to bear in each match as it is. 

What's been changed since update game feels too easy again almost like click and continue before update difficulty was the most balanced ive seen on FM now its boring again no challenge  

[TheVerySpecialOne]

6 hours ago, Mcfc1894 said:

What's been changed since update game feels too easy again almost like click and continue before update difficulty was the most balanced ive seen on FM now its boring again no challenge  

Good for you man, I lost 7 games in a row, using gegenpress, dropped from 1st to 9th place, morale is really low, don't know how to get out of it.

[phnompenhandy]

6 hours ago, TheVerySpecialOne said:

Good for you man, I lost 7 games in a row, using gegenpress, dropped from 1st to 9th place, morale is really low, don't know how to get out of it.

A common thing I'm noticing with myself and others is we get off to a good start, then hit a rough patch, and we lose hand over fist. I'm still trying to work out if it's due to oppo sussing out our tactics, bad training regimes or just a worsening morale snowball effect. But it happens time and again.

[Pasonen]

16 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

A common thing I'm noticing with myself and others is we get off to a good start, then hit a rough patch, and we lose hand over fist. I'm still trying to work out if it's due to oppo sussing out our tactics, bad training regimes or just a worsening morale snowball effect. But it happens time and again.

Just adding my opinion here. I have always thought it's because of overconfidence. I try to control this by saying  "do not get overconfident", or even "it was a bad game" If we start to play matches where opponent gets more chances and we win with setpiece or long shot goal. If we lose then the next game is important to get draw at least. This all is of course affected by how good your players are to that league where you play.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Pasonen

[phnompenhandy]

5 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Just adding my opinion here. I have always thought it's because of overconfidence. I try to control this by saying  "do not get overconfident", or even "it was a bad game" If we start to play matches where opponent gets more chances and we win with setpiece or long shot goal. If we lose then the next game is important to get draw at least. This all is of course affected by how good your players are to that league where you play.

Yeh, that's fair. In fact, I think one factor is MY overconfidence when things are going surprisingly well!

[priority76]

14 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

A common thing I'm noticing with myself and others is we get off to a good start, then hit a rough patch, and we lose hand over fist. I'm still trying to work out if it's due to oppo sussing out our tactics, bad training regimes or just a worsening morale snowball effect. But it happens time and again.

Yes this very much.  I seem to always have a storming start then end up limping along to the end of the season.  I'm trying the dafuge challenge and on my third season I'm still stuck in the Vanarama south.  It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't see other people blitzing the league on their first try.  I know I should really just be enjoying the ride but I'm finding it so frustrating.  If you find anything that helps let me know

[EazyEee]

FM22 player here who found the game too easy and therefore have held off buying fm23 (first time since CM days). Has anyone here tested the Daveincid mod, does it make things harder?

[EazyEee]

Ended up buying, not installed the mods yet but ... half way though the season with Fulham and I'm in the top 4 - no transfers - playing a deep 4-2-3-1 dynamic counter. I like that its possible to play this style and be successful but it seems its a lil too on the easy side. Hopefully its just beginners luck. 

[Etebaer]

It would already be a nice challenge if SI would allow the AI access to the successful manager tactics human managers use (optionally per preference setting).

The game is online anyway as it runs per steam and a library of succesfull tactics for the AI should not be that big i guess and rather easy to aquire.

 

Also the squadbuilding can be better, the AI should know if a certain tactic needs fast players, or strong players, or technical players and what mentals they must have for best results.

 

Atm the game is rather easy but only as long you find players that fit into your tactic/team as the wrong sub/starting player has snatched some defeats out of the jaws of victory for me - this game is probably the most sensible to that.

[silentwars]

11 hours ago, Etebaer said:

It would already be a nice challenge if SI would allow the AI access to the successful manager tactics human managers use (optionally per preference setting).

The game is online anyway as it runs per steam and a library of succesfull tactics for the AI should not be that big i guess and rather easy to aquire.

That sounds like a good idea. Should post it in the features request section. 

[enigmatic]

The AI randomly using player tactics seems to sort of miss the point of FM being a simulation of the world of football though.

I'm sure AI Pep could win even more consistently using ChineseForumChickenWing523CornerExploit but it sort of misses the point that this isn't how he actually plays...