If you think the current fm20 match engine is great, post your tactics

[Dagenham_Dave]

35 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

 The match engine is broken is vital areas right now.

And yet nearly 70,000 people are playing it at any given time. Why would so many people continue to play a broken product?

I feel sorry for people with this viewpoint, I've never enjoyed an FM more at this stage of its development ever. I was highly critical of FM19 this time last year - not to the point where I couldn't play it - but this version is so much better in almost every way. I can look beyond the flaws (they're being fixed anyway), and I just build that into the game's narrative. 

Hopefully you can recapture your enjoyment of the game at some point. 

 

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And yet nearly 70,000 people are playing it at any given time. Why would so many people continue to play a broken product?

 

Most people don't care as long as they win. And people complaining here simply want more. Judging by youtube FM players, most of them skip their games on key highlights. 

[pats]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And yet nearly 70,000 people are playing it at any given time. Why would so many people continue to play a broken product?

I feel sorry for people with this viewpoint, I've never enjoyed an FM more at this stage of its development ever. I was highly critical of FM19 this time last year - not to the point where I couldn't play it - but this version is so much better in almost every way. I can look beyond the flaws (they're being fixed anyway), and I just build that into the game's narrative. 

Hopefully you can recapture your enjoyment of the game at some point. 

 

It seems to be the theme this year though. People don't seem to have enough patience or want to make efforts to change their tactics and immediately declare the ME as broken. I said few pages ago that reducing the tempo is making my players play sensible but still attractive football but didn't receive any feedback from the people complaining. Sure ME has problems but it's no where near unplayable. People are just finding it hard to adapt to how the ME has changed from previous versions.

Edited December 3, 2019 by pats

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, pats said:

People are just finding it hard to adapt to how it's changed from previous versions.

100% this

[pats]

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

Most people don't care as long as they win. And people complaining here simply want more. Judging by youtube FM players, most of them skip their games on key highlights. 

I'm yet to see you post your tactics or explain why it's not working. 

[TheJock83]

1 hour ago, TheInvisibleMan said:

Anyone managed to get their strikers scoring?

That's the main thing that's bugging me, so much so that I've been back on FM19 instead at times.

Yup, Man Utd, got Haaland, Greenwood and Rashford scoring regularly (well, they go on scoring runs - when one is not scoring the others do).

Also have Pogba getting Lampardesque scoring stats.

Have found that having 1 main striker is the key, as 2 up front just seem to get in the way of each other. Also asymmetrical wingers/attacking midfielder combos seems to create a lot of space for my players to take an extra touch and finish.

[Mitja]

2 minutes ago, pats said:

It seems to be the theme this year though. People don't seem to have enough patience or want to make efforts to change their tactics and immediately declare the ME as broken. I said few pages ago that reducing the tempo is making my players play sensible but still attractive football but didn't receive any feedback from the people complaining. Sure ME has problems but it's no where near unplayable. People are just finding it hard to adapt to how the ME has changed from previous versions.

But it looks AI hasn't got the patience to adapt too.  All of the issues I mentioned are acknowledged as such by testing team. But if you see intelligent striker movement in final third, forward passing, simple pass into space in the box, players not using weaker foot all the time, strikers scoring realistic amounts then please share your tactics. And I've never said my tactics don't work. Your comment about tempo is spot on but unfortunatly it doesn't help AI, or our game experience. Look ate AI goals for example, 90% come from set pieces, rebounds after setpieces, crosses or penalties.

[noikeee]

I just gave up and went back to FM18 (not 19 - something went in the wrong direction last year already and btw I did get a very effective tactical system working on last year's version) and am finally enjoying the game again. Fair play to the devs for doing their best, and to whoever is enjoying 20, but I don't think it's for me. 

[kiwityke1983]

My striker has gotten 26 then 27 in about 40 games and now 15 goals in 16 games the last 2.5 seasons. Been by far my top scorer. 

I've had to adapt my tactics several times over the 2.5 seasons too because the AI has countered how I'm setup and stopped me. 

A lot of people complaining seem to be "I want to play X style of football and I can't therefore the ME is broken". Instead of seeing what is actually happening, IE their tactic is being countered. 

My tactic is still essentially the same style I want, attacking, high tempo pressing and possession based.

On prior FMs I've generally made a tactic that's worked then been able to just use the same tactic for decades with multiple teams to great success. Doesn't seem to be the case this year. Which is a good thing I think. 

[TheJock83]

3 minutes ago, Mitja said:

But it looks AI hasn't got the patience to adapt too.  All of the issues I mentioned are acknowledged as such by testing team. But if you see intelligent striker movement in final third, forward passing, simple pass into space in the box, players not using weaker foot all the time, strikers scoring realistic amounts then please share your tactics. And I've never said my tactics don't work. Your comment about tempo is spot on but unfortunatly it doesn't help AI, or our game experience. Look ate AI goals for example, 90% come from set pieces, rebounds after setpieces, crosses or penalties.

If you are consistently having goals scored against you from set pieces then you have to HAVE TO look at your defensive set up from corners and free kicks. If not, then it is just lazy to sit back and grumble "games broke".

[Mitja]

 

11 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

My striker has gotten 26 then 27 in about 40 games and now 15 goals in 16 games the last 2.5 seasons. Been by far my top scorer. 

I've had to adapt my tactics several times over the 2.5 seasons too because the AI has countered how I'm setup and stopped me. 

A lot of people complaining seem to be "I want to play X style of football and I can't therefore the ME is broken". Instead of seeing what is actually happening, IE their tactic is being countered. 

My tactic is still essentially the same style I want, attacking, high tempo pressing and possession based.

On prior FMs I've generally made a tactic that's worked then been able to just use the same tactic for decades with multiple teams to great success. Doesn't seem to be the case this year. Which is a good thing I think. 

Human manager will always be able to adapt to and get the most from the ME. Problem is in AI. For example I just had a game aginst Bayern, they had 10 shots, 4 on target and they won 3-0. I don't complain as I excpected to loose that game anyway. But goals they scored are perfect example of what's really wrong with this ME. Corner, Cross in 47th minute and a 40 yard screamer with weaker foot from angle which would fall into category of best goals scored ever. Then I went to check their previous games, They only score from set-pieces. It's just not fun. And actually AI Bayern played good football but once the ball is in final third, nothing...

Edited December 3, 2019 by Mitja

[Weller1980]

1 hour ago, rockpie said:

 

Without seeing full screenshots of your tactic, team instructions and the player instructions set for those attacking roles...

My first instinct is that any kind of deep playing striker isn't the best for the kind of football you're describing. You would want more of an Advanced Forward who is constantly looking to make runs in behind and break the offside trap.

Although what you can see in that example is a great opportunity for a pass, the match engine might only attempt that pass if it registers an attempted run by the striker.

A deep lying forward might be more prone to simply stand and face the player in possession in order to receive a pass to feet, allowing a more patient build up as other players run past him.

Changing the role of your striker could unlock what you're looking for, assuming it fits in with the rest of your tactic.

I have tried different striker roles as you've suggested but, I cant generate through balls or even forward passes for that matter.

Anyway @CJ Ramson has acknowledged the lack of through balls as a known issue and said its been fixed internally, so Im waiting in hope to see some improvements with the incoming ME patch.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Weller1980

[rockpie]

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

They only score from set-pieces. 

Assuming what you say is true and that every goal they have scored comes from a set piece, I would upload the PKM files of those Bayern games to the Bugs section for SI to investigate.

 

[Mitja]

1 minute ago, rockpie said:

Assuming what you say is true and that every goal they have scored comes from a set piece, I would upload the PKM files of those Bayern games to the Bugs section for SI to investigate.

 

They are awere of the problem. The question is why they released the ME with no improvements in forward passing and lack of through balls in final third. This issue was discussed to death in fm19. Same with player movement in final third. 

[Weller1980]

Just now, Mitja said:

They are awere of the problem. The question is why they released the ME with no improvements in forward passing and lack of through balls in final third. This issue was discussed to death in fm19. Same with player movement in final third. 

100% agree with this! Lack of forward passing was an issue with FM19 and remains an issue with the current ME.

[Mitja]

This is not just some unimportant bug. It's like in formula game your breaks don't work. And AI suffers most from it which is again huge problem in a game like FM. 

[pats]

8 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

Human manager will always be able to adapt to and get the most from the ME. Problem is in AI. For example I just had a game aginst Bayern, they had 10 shots, 4 on target and they won 3-0. I don't complain as I excpected to loose that game anyway. But goals they scored are perfect example of what's really wrong with this ME. Corner, Cross in 47th minute and a 40 yard screamer with weaker foot from angle which would fall into category of best goals scored ever. Then I went to check their previous games, They only score from set-pieces. It's just not fun. And actually AI Bayern played good football but once the ball is in final third, nothing...

If Bayern is only scoring from set-pieces then the bug here I see is that other Bundesliga teams are far too scared to have a go against them and parking the bus too frequently. In real life, I see more Bundesliga teams (than in game) trying to be brave and press them high (not that they win but still).

And yes, I know lack of central play has been acknowledged as an issue by the ME team. I would be glad if we get a further improved ME patch as a result but I'm still enjoying my save regardless and trying to prove my point that ME is far from being "broken and unplayable".

[Mitja]

1 minute ago, pats said:

If Bayern is only scoring from set-pieces then the bug here I see is that other Bundesliga teams are far too scared to have a go against them and parking the bus too frequently. In real life, I see more Bundesliga teams (than in game) trying to be brave and press them high (not that they win but still).

 

I totally agree. But unfortunatly you won't see that aproach in FM from AI, all teams play defensive tactics against them. Ten years ago I would have thought the FM would replicate real football a lot more not discussing lack of forward passing...

[Johnny Ace]

19 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

Human manager will always be able to adapt to and get the most from the ME. Problem is in AI. For example I just had a game aginst Bayern, they had 10 shots, 4 on target and they won 3-0. I don't complain as I excpected to loose that game anyway. But goals they scored are perfect example of what's really wrong with this ME. Corner, Cross in 47th minute and a 40 yard screamer with weaker foot from angle which would fall into category of best goals scored ever. Then I went to check their previous games, They only score from set-pieces. It's just not fun. And actually AI Bayern played good football but once the ball is in final third, nothing...

This for me too

The game for me's not about adjusting to the ME & workarounds, it's about football. I often watch AI games, cup finals, World Cups, great teams storming the leagues, I want to be able to sit back & watch the AI & enjoy a sim close to football 

If I get hammered 3-0, I don't want concede 3 set pieces, like I said the other day, I was a Serie C team playing a Serie A team. I lost 4-0 & should be, but they didn't rip me apart, not one of their goals was worthy of the gulf in class    

 

[noikeee]

8 hours ago, pats said:

How many teams in real life can play with creativity, movement and pull defences out of space? Not many. You can count them on your fingers.

If you want to play like that in game, first of all you need to have players for it. Secondly you them to gel and give them enough time to understand each others' movement. It's hard to do it in game because it's hard to do it in real life. It's actually very easy for SI to make this easy to achieve but then it won't be a simulation if every team can Guardiolize their way to success in the game.

How many teams in real life have tried to emulate Pep's Barca and have failed miserably in the last decade? Most of them. Not even Pep has been able to emulate his own Barca after he left them. In a way his Barca has been spoiling FMers and everyone still has that fantasy football in the back of their mind when fantasizing about "short pass through balls against packed defences". People need to get over it. It isn't going to happen easily either IRL or in game.

Let's also talk about International football. All major trophy winning teams are counter attacking teams except Spain 2008-12 (again the same Barca players). France, Portugal both built their success with counter attacking tactics. They play good football only against weaker teams in qualifiers. Brazil and Germany couldn't score to save their life with their sexy football.

Plenty of teams play good football based on creativity and movement at all levels, it obviously works better when you have a Messi or de Bruyne on the pitch, but if you adapt the concepts and have talented intelligent players for your level, it's challenging but doable to have something mildly pleasing working in real life. 

Plus this is a game, I play it to enjoy myself, not to get stressed like real life managers do. 

Also load up FM20 at the Belgian third tier like I was doing, and you'll find plenty of magical long through balls from DMs as if they're Pirlo, and quick strikers reacting to it like Filippo Inzaghi one second before the CBs, perfectly controlling the ball on their first touch, too (before squandering most of these clear chances, granted). And plenty of rubbish players scoring amazing volleys and amazing long shots with their first touch, sometimes with their weaker foot as someone else posted. This is what we're seeing with rubbish players instead of intricate short central play, and is also very unrealistic.

[pats]

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

I totally agree. But unfortunatly you won't see that aproach in FM from AI, all teams play defensive tactics against them. Ten years ago I would have thought the FM would replicate real football a lot more not discussing lack of forward passing...

Ten years ago, defending in FM was not as realistic as it's now. As a result we used to see lot of central play. Even in FM17, my whole tactics was based around overloading the central areas, patiently waiting for opening and scoring majority of my goals from short through balls. But that was because defending by wide players was unrealistic. The wide players in that version used to just get stuck to the wide areas never helping out defending the central areas. Hence central overload was the way to go. I'm glad we don't have that issue anymore.

[Double0Seven]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And yet nearly 70,000 people are playing it at any given time. Why would so many people continue to play a broken product?

I feel sorry for people with this viewpoint, I've never enjoyed an FM more at this stage of its development ever. I was highly critical of FM19 this time last year - not to the point where I couldn't play it - but this version is so much better in almost every way. I can look beyond the flaws (they're being fixed anyway), and I just build that into the game's narrative. 

Hopefully you can recapture your enjoyment of the game at some point. 

 

There are no alternatives to FM. I'm forced to use Windows for many applications and games, yet Windows is garbage compared to Linux. 

Just like with FIFA in the few last year's. You might not like it 100%, but PES was barely an alternative up until the recent years. Same with F1 games, no alternative. 

[witchplease]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And yet nearly 70,000 people are playing it at any given time. Why would so many people continue to play a broken product?

I find this version of ME frustrating with it's broken 1v1s and lack of square passes in the box (instead players would rather dribble past multiple players to shoot themselves), but i still play the game because what other alternate is there ? Also except the gameplay part my Bolton save is class so there's that too.

[Mitja]

Just now, pats said:

Ten years ago, defending in FM was not as realistic as it's now. As a result we used to see lot of central play. Even in FM17, my whole tactics was based around overloading the central areas, patiently waiting for opening and scoring majority of my goals from short through balls. But that was because defending by wide players was unrealistic. The wide players in that version used to just get stuck to the wide areas never helping out defending the central areas. Hence central overload was the way to go. I'm glad we don't have that issue anymore.

I remember when I first played fm17 I was amazed with how AI played, I couldn't do nothing. Then I adapted, watched and learned. It was tough but really fun. I agree there were issues with how wide players were defending and how easily it was to pass to striker which was biger issue for me, but for me it was really fun and challenging. One-two's in final third, neat little through balls like you see in real life. Maybe it was a little unrealistic, I'm not sure. But still I preffer it over last two years where all of it's gone. 

But I don't agree that defending has improved that much, I see so many poor representations, it is a myth to me. Yes now every team defends narrow with 10 men, but as you said with how Bundesliga teams defend against Bayern, hardly realistic. It only introduced other more serious problems, like lack of forward/through balls and crossing fest in fm19. Hardly improvement for me, let alone being fun. And what happened to AI in last three years?

[Dagenham_Dave]

13 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

There are no alternatives to FM.

Well there is. Not playing it. 

I've never really understood this viewpoint. It's like if McDonalds was the only fast food place in the world, and their burgers were crawling with insects but you still went and ate them anyway because there's 'no alternatives'. 

If you don't like a game, feel that it's unplayable, or don't agree with the direction its going, then just stop playing it. Raise the bugs if you feel passionate enough about it, but stamping your feet stubbornly continuing to play something you don't enjoy purely because there's 'no alternative' is utter insanity. 

[pats]

4 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I remember when I first played fm17 I was amazed with how AI played, I couldn't do nothing. Then I adapted, watched and learned. It was tough but really fun. I agree there were issues with how wide players were defending and how easily it was to pass to striker which was biger issue for me, but for me it was really fun and challenging. One-two's in final third, neat little through balls like you see in real life. Maybe it was a little unrealistic, I'm not sure. But still I preffer it over last two years where all of it's gone. 

But I don't agree that defending has improved that much, I see so many poor representations, it is a myth to me. Yes now every team defends narrow with 10 men, but as you said with how Bundesliga teams defend against Bayern, hardly realistic. It only introduced other more serious problems, like lack of forward/through balls and crossing fest in fm19. Hardly improvement for me, let alone being fun. And what happened to AI in last three years?

You got valid points as well. So since we both have valid points, we are running around in a circle.  

It's time for me to stop this tactical debate now. Hope we see a patch soon which can satisfy all parties to a level where we can go a year of FMing without visiting the forum. I wish nothing but a busy and fun year of FMing for every FMer.  

[JEinchy]

I still need to explore this more, but I get the impression the individual mentality for players has a big impact on their behaviour and is something people overlook, including myself, until recently.

I'm playing as Sevilla in my second season and still don't have high quality attackers. Most of my attackers have 15 or less in their key attributes. The real quality is in midfield, with a handful of great playmakers. So to extract the most out of this squad, I decided to play a more universal style that relies on teamwork rather than individual brilliance, and came up with this:

GKd, WBs (both sides), CBd (both CBs), DMs, Mezs, APa, IFs, Ws, CFs

Mentality: Positive

No in possession TIs, counter/counter press/distribute to cbs and full backs in transition, lower line of engagement out of possession.

It's not amazing, but all of a sudden, I started seeing good movement, through passes, and a lot less wastage. The IFs has been a key player, often being the most aggressive of the front three, even on his support duty. When I went in to his PIs, his mentality was Very Attacking. On the other side, the Winger on support was only Positive - he only became Very Attacking on an attack duty.

So, without playing on the extreme mentalities and no attack duties in the frontline, I still had a player on Very Attacking. Now imagine if I was playing on Attacking/Very Attacking, with a bunch of attack duties on top?

Basically, the players would play wildly. This either breaks the game because the AI can't cope, or it results in a lot of shots, dribbling and poor passing that goes nowhere. In other words, a lot of excess.

This year, it feels like you have to apply more checks and balances if you're playing on the higher mentalities. Because when it says Very Attacking, it really means that. 

[noikeee]

22 minutes ago, pats said:

Ten years ago, defending in FM was not as realistic as it's now. As a result we used to see lot of central play. Even in FM17, my whole tactics was based around overloading the central areas, patiently waiting for opening and scoring majority of my goals from short through balls. But that was because defending by wide players was unrealistic. The wide players in that version used to just get stuck to the wide areas never helping out defending the central areas. Hence central overload was the way to go. I'm glad we don't have that issue anymore.

17 had a big exploit with central overloads with players running from deep, yes. The problem is the development that has been done since in response in attempt to balance it. Instead of toning down the effectiveness of playing like that, it was shut off completely and we're still witnessing the consequences. 

In 18 that exploit was fixed but the goals that were lost were replaced by an exploit of players running into the channels (hence all the overpowered 3 central striker tactics). In 19 that exploit was also fixed and in return we got a dull game with no movement, because if you don't have players breaking free running from deep, and no players breaking free running into the channels, the only goals that remain are long shots, set pieces and crosses. In 20 we're seeing more of the same as we had in 19 except with bizarre buggy quirks - such as wingers shooting into the side net in some systems, strikers missing clear one on ones on other systems, wingbacks getting a free card to run forward all the way to within the area, and players being way way way too keen to pass to the wings over the center in the final phases of build-up. The end result is something robotic, illogical, unresponsive to tactical changes, that doesn't resemble football. The most frustrating thing of all is clear chances paying off less with fewer goals, than long shots from the edges of the area or players arriving late to the area. How do you respond as a manager when the laws of physics have been altered to that extent? 

[luka_zg]

Mentality: Positive

TI: higher tempo, work ball into box, play out of defence, distribute to playmaker, urgent pressing, prevent gk distribution

GK - SK/D

FBR - WB/S

FBL - WB/S

DCR - CD/D

DCR - CD/D

DM - DLP/D

MCR - AP/A

MCL - BBM

AMR - W/S

AML - IW/S

ST - DLF/A

 

Working fine since the beta. No problems.

[Mitja]

8 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

Now imagine if I was playing on Attacking/Very Attacking, with a bunch of attack duties on top?

Like AI does?

[pats]

17 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

I still need to explore this more, but I get the impression the individual mentality for players has a big impact on their behaviour and is something people overlook, including myself, until recently.

I'm playing as Sevilla in my second season and still don't have high quality attackers. Most of my attackers have 15 or less in their key attributes. The real quality is in midfield, with a handful of great playmakers. So to extract the most out of this squad, I decided to play a more universal style that relies on teamwork rather than individual brilliance, and came up with this:

GKd, WBs (both sides), CBd (both CBs), DMs, Mezs, APa, IFs, Ws, CFs

Mentality: Positive

No in possession TIs, counter/counter press/distribute to cbs and full backs in transition, lower line of engagement out of possession.

It's not amazing, but all of a sudden, I started seeing good movement, through passes, and a lot less wastage. The IFs has been a key player, often being the most aggressive of the front three, even on his support duty. When I went in to his PIs, his mentality was Very Attacking. On the other side, the Winger on support was only Positive - he only became Very Attacking on an attack duty.

So, without playing on the extreme mentalities and no attack duties in the frontline, I still had a player on Very Attacking. Now imagine if I was playing on Attacking/Very Attacking, with a bunch of attack duties on top?

Basically, the players would play wildly. This either breaks the game because the AI can't cope, or it results in a lot of shots, dribbling and poor passing that goes nowhere. In other words, a lot of excess.

This year, it feels like you have to apply more checks and balances if you're playing on the higher mentalities. Because when it says Very Attacking, it really means that. 

Just checked and you are right!! That could be it!!!!! IFs on 'support' duty have 'very attacking' mentality. So playing them on 'attacking' duty in addition to 'attacking'/'positive' team mentality could be making them 'attack on steroids'. I reckon playing 'attack' duties on lower than 'Balanced' team mentality could make them play sensibly and playing 'support' duties on 'Balanced' and higher team mentality could make them play sensibly. This also may be the reason why some people are not seeing the issues while others are seeing them all the time.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by pats

[Mitja]

4 minutes ago, noikeee said:

17 had a big exploit with central overloads with players running from deep, yes.

Emm like real life teams against better ones? I mean goals are scored from central positions, assists can come from anywhere. It's the metter of team quality how much can MCs push forward. But there was great variaty of goals scored in fm17, including tap-ins.

[noikeee]

9 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Emm like real life teams against better ones? I mean goals are scored from central positions, assists can come from anywhere. It's the metter of team quality how much can MCs push forward. But there was great variaty of goals scored in fm17, including tap-ins.

I meant central overloads like strikerless tactics with lots of players running from deeper position through the middle. There's a reason why most tactics for download for FM17 had things like 3 AMCs with 2 of them on attack duty running into the area. Strikerless is a valid way of playing the game, but it was a bit too good on that version. In real life teams prioritize defending the central area for a reason, because it's dangerous yes, but AI teams didn't do that properly in FM17.

What we have in FM19 and now 20 is almost the complete opposite. Now AI teams are very very good at defending the middle - too good IMO - but forget to mark attacking wingbacks. And players on the ball also almost completely ignore central passing options when they appear on the pitch, which is plain wrong.

[witchplease]

55 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well there is. Not playing it. 

I've never really understood this viewpoint. It's like if McDonalds was the only fast food place in the world, and their burgers were crawling with insects but you still went and ate them anyway because there's 'no alternatives'. 

If you don't like a game, feel that it's unplayable, or don't agree with the direction its going, then just stop playing it. Raise the bugs if you feel passionate enough about it, but stamping your feet stubbornly continuing to play something you don't enjoy purely because there's 'no alternative' is utter insanity. 

The point was just because 70k players are playing the game doesnt meant much, most players probably cant give 2 ****s about match engine, they'd get frustrated now and again as usual but as long as they win its all good. Then there are players like me who play it despite disliking match engine because rest of the game is good.

 

Now talking about the topic you have steered this conversation to... "just stop playing if you dont like it". First of all i left fifa just because of that reason, but fm unlike fifa's cm has alot more to offer than just broken gameplay. Also ME is just one part of fm so your mcdonalds analogy is just plain wrong. It'd be more like if mcd was serving only burger in the world but they put in rotten lettuce, then yeah most people would still buy from them.

 

Also bugs have been raised, its been weeks since these bugs went "under review". These 1v1s and selfish shots from side have been acknowledged as bugs by SI but its taking so long, people are bound to whine at some point.

Edited December 3, 2019 by witchplease

[Mitja]

31 minutes ago, pats said:

Just checked and you are right!! That could be it!!!!! IFs on 'support' duty have 'very attacking' mentality. So playing them on 'attacking' duty in addition to 'attacking'/'positive' team mentality could be making them 'attack on steroids'. I reckon playing 'attack' duties on lower than 'Balanced' team mentality could make them play sensibly and playing 'support' duties on 'Balanced' and higher team mentality could make them play sensibly. This also may be the reason why some people are not seeing the issues while others are seeing them all the time.

 

 

While I agree in general, this is not how AI aproaches tactics unfortunatly. This is actually opposite to AI setup. Attacking tactics use attacking mentality + more att. duties + all other instructions being more aggressive = Attacking on steroids. So what was happening in game at least until fm19 (this is improved in fm20), when attacking team meets defensive is the opposite to real life in all aspects of basic team sports logics. Defensive team was able to dominate possession but sometimes without firing single shot from that possession. The peak of this absurdity reached with fm19, where attacking teams like City or Liverpool could put in more than 100 crosses per game but couldn't hold possession. The mentality based tactical setups are dinosaurs (still here from CM days) with liitle  resemblence to real life football.  And now when transition instructions were added there is absolutely no need for mentality anymore. Team plays defensive football with low block, direct passing, counter-attacking, less attacking roles etc, and mentality is just a sum of all other instructions. It's the reason why attacking tactics are on steroids and defensive on sleeping pills. On a side note, anyone got some good defensive tactics maybe?

Edited December 3, 2019 by Mitja

[Dagenham_Dave]

21 minutes ago, Mitja said:

On a side note, anyone got some good defensive tactics maybe?

The Motherwell team I've just played. Frustrated the hell out of me in a 0-0 draw. It's the best display of defensive tactics I've seen this year. They've just hired a new manager whose whole philosophy is built on a strong defence. In the three games he's been in charge, they've had two 0-0 draws and a 1-1 draw. They're bottom of the league (hence the new manager), so I guess he's just trying to get them away from a losing mentality, but it's highly effective. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

29 minutes ago, witchplease said:

most players probably cant give 2 ****s about match engine

And the award for 'Sweeping Generalisation of the Year 2020' goes to...

[Jonthedon26]

3 hours ago, TheInvisibleMan said:

Anyone managed to get their strikers scoring?

That's the main thing that's bugging me, so much so that I've been back on FM19 instead at times.

Yes, Lukas Jutkiewicz was 2nd top scorer in the championship for me first season with 23 league goals

[witchplease]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And the award for 'Sweeping Generalisation of the Year 2020' goes to...

Its 2019 lmao. Nice try dodging all these points by nitpicking one sentence, first you ignored the main counterargument against 70k players by nitpicking one point and making it all about "why still play if you dont like it"... and now you ignored whole comment just to nitpick one ****ing sentence. Shouldve known the first time it was useless to debate any further.

 

Imagine thinking '70k players' figure mean anything when a game as bad as fifa gets far more players lol.

 

Good day mr. 2020

Edited December 3, 2019 by witchplease

[andu1]

4-1-2-3 DM wide. Narrow , much shorter passing , very fluid , Positive mentality with a Poacher up top. Rest of the players, except the 2 DC's on support.

I don't think that it's all about the tactics though. It's about finding the correct balance for the squad you're managing

[FlorianAlbert9]

I'm enjoing more than 19, I'm doing a good career at Kazincbarcika (promotion in first year - media prediction 14th, then a right relegation, then a 6th Place in division 2, and now another promotion in premier). 

I change my style over the years using always an attacking mentality with more creativity, but passing from direct standard-pace to at current short passage-fast tempo.

This premise Is to says that i like the ME, but there is a very evident issue with strikers and (too much) long shot goals. 

I don't look at my stats to examine the ME 'cause i'm only one in the world (of my game). 

I look at the AI. 

And (example) to find a top goalscorer with less goals in Hungary First division i have to go back at 100 (One hundred) years ago. 

Or

There wasn't in history an European Golden Shoe winners with less goals that the ones in the games. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by FlorianAlbert9

[kiwityke1983]

Well there is an update that allegedly fixes these issues downloading as I type. 

[aliosha]

2 hours ago, witchplease said:

The point was just because 70k players are playing the game doesnt meant much, most players probably cant give 2 ****s about match engine, they'd get frustrated now and again as usual but as long as they win its all good. Then there are players like me who play it despite disliking match engine because rest of the game is good.

 

Now talking about the topic you have steered this conversation to... "just stop playing if you dont like it". First of all i left fifa just because of that reason, but fm unlike fifa's cm has alot more to offer than just broken gameplay. Also ME is just one part of fm so your mcdonalds analogy is just plain wrong. It'd be more like if mcd was serving only burger in the world but they put in rotten lettuce, then yeah most people would still buy from them.

 

Also bugs have been raised, its been weeks since these bugs went "under review". These 1v1s and selfish shots from side have been acknowledged as bugs by SI but its taking so long, people are bound to whine at some point.

 "git gud"  mate, judging by post here it seems like FM community starts to look dangerously close to FIFA community.  

[styluz05]

8 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

My striker has gotten 26 then 27 in about 40 games and now 15 goals in 16 games the last 2.5 seasons. Been by far my top scorer. 

I've had to adapt my tactics several times over the 2.5 seasons too because the AI has countered how I'm setup and stopped me. 

A lot of people complaining seem to be "I want to play X style of football and I can't therefore the ME is broken". Instead of seeing what is actually happening, IE their tactic is being countered. 

My tactic is still essentially the same style I want, attacking, high tempo pressing and possession based.

On prior FMs I've generally made a tactic that's worked then been able to just use the same tactic for decades with multiple teams to great success. Doesn't seem to be the case this year. Which is a good thing I think. Agree fully with 

People just want a plug and play tactic that wins but surely that just gets boring? 

I have to agree with you. I've had success but I've had to adapt several times too because surprise surprise the AI now adapts and defends better. 

People don't have patience to work on it. 

 

[herne79]

@hazzabish @Dagenham_Dave  I've removed your latest tête-à-tête.  Take it to PM if you want to carry on, the rest of us really aren't interested.  Learn to understand when to stop trying to engage, winding others up and feeling the need to always reply.

[Dagenham_Dave]

26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

@hazzabish @Dagenham_Dave  I've removed your latest tête-à-tête.  Take it to PM if you want to carry on, the rest of us really aren't interested.  Learn to understand when to stop trying to engage, winding others up and feeling the need to always reply.

Voted you up, purely for the excellent use of 'tete-a-tete' complete with accents, which I can't seem to master. Kudos. 

[Svenc]

10 hours ago, Mitja said:

This is not just some unimportant bug. It's like in formula game your breaks don't work. And AI suffers most from it which is again huge problem in a game like FM. 

Agree. AI vs AI Matches make up the bulk of FM's game world. Which is also, aside of ironing out ME Issues, is why the tactical module imo Needs to be streamlined in the future.

Then again imagine a possible future release in which if all that most bootiful Football possible inside the ME weren't Happening by just sticking a couple good Players on the pitch, and the AI was made smarter as well to Keep up with that. In that Scenario, the AI once again were considered as "cheating" for doing Things Players were incapable of doing ("only AI Always scores from few shots / gets Players at lower Prices / must be cheating).  

Edited December 3, 2019 by Svenc

[ceefax the cat]

10 hours ago, Mitja said:

While I agree in general, this is not how AI aproaches tactics unfortunatly. This is actually opposite to AI setup. Attacking tactics use attacking mentality + more att. duties + all other instructions being more aggressive = Attacking on steroids. So what was happening in game at least until fm19 (this is improved in fm20), when attacking team meets defensive is the opposite to real life in all aspects of basic team sports logics. Defensive team was able to dominate possession but sometimes without firing single shot from that possession. The peak of this absurdity reached with fm19, where attacking teams like City or Liverpool could put in more than 100 crosses per game but couldn't hold possession. The mentality based tactical setups are dinosaurs (still here from CM days) with liitle  resemblence to real life football.  And now when transition instructions were added there is absolutely no need for mentality anymore. Team plays defensive football with low block, direct passing, counter-attacking, less attacking roles etc, and mentality is just a sum of all other instructions. It's the reason why attacking tactics are on steroids and defensive on sleeping pills. On a side note, anyone got some good defensive tactics maybe?

This is a great point. A separate mentality option doesn't make any sense when you're already controlling the other parameters. It just adds a lot of confusion - even more so because it affects every single other parameter so your deep line isn't as deep with an attacking mentality, your short passing isn't as short etc etc, none of which is made sufficiently clear in the TC. It takes a set of easy, relatable instructions with clear physical implications on the football pitch and turns them into a strange, abstract calculation, the implications of which most players will never grasp and end up just bumbling around with trial and error, sapping enjoyment from the game.

Just get rid of it. If I tell my team to defend very deep, not close down very much, defend narrow, regroup quickly into their shape, look for opportunities to counter, don't send the fullbacks forward and have a mostly defensive midfield, the mentality of my team is decided. Equally if I set my team up with flying fullbacks, pressing the opposition goalie, midfielders flooding forward, loads of creative freedom etc etc then it would be absurd for me to decide that this represented a cautious mentality, but in FM that makes perfect sense.

The fact that you have to counter-intuitively select a high mentality in order to make your defensive side get the ball forward reasonably quickly (and a low one if you want to hog possession) says it all. It makes no sense at all. No manager 'selects their mentality'. They do everything else in the TC except that. Bin it.

[Miravlix]

Before 20.2 my Senior, B and u19 teams was winning with ease after 20.2 it seems things has changed for the better, I no longer finish matches with the opposition having 0 shots, if they actually scored some of the situations, I could actually have lost some of the matches and my B and u19 team no longer win every match with 10-0.

 

I hope it's not simply a fluke and the ME is much better after the latest patch.

[Mitja]

8 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

This is a great point. A separate mentality option doesn't make any sense when you're already controlling the other parameters. It just adds a lot of confusion - even more so because it affects every single other parameter so your deep line isn't as deep with an attacking mentality, your short passing isn't as short etc etc, none of which is made sufficiently clear in the TC. It takes a set of easy, relatable instructions with clear physical implications on the football pitch and turns them into a strange, abstract calculation, the implications of which most players will never grasp and end up just bumbling around with trial and error, sapping enjoyment from the game.

Just get rid of it. If I tell my team to defend very deep, not close down very much, defend narrow, regroup quickly into their shape, look for opportunities to counter, don't send the fullbacks forward and have a mostly defensive midfield, the mentality of my team is decided. Equally if I set my team up with flying fullbacks, pressing the opposition goalie, midfielders flooding forward, loads of creative freedom etc etc then it would be absurd for me to decide that this represented a cautious mentality, but in FM that makes perfect sense.

The fact that you have to counter-intuitively select a high mentality in order to make your defensive side get the ball forward reasonably quickly (and a low one if you want to hog possession) says it all. It makes no sense at all. No manager 'selects their mentality'. They do everything else in the TC except that. Bin it.

Thanks for the post. I wish more people would understand absurdity of mentality instruction. And as you mentioned it's the opposite, lower mentality suits slower, possessesional style and more attacking suits direct, counter-attacking style. At least until fm19 this issue was so obvious and prounounced but as far as I can tell big improvements were made for fm20. Imo there are two key aspects why mentality is not needed anymore, firstly we have more than enough real instructions that define how team and player individually will behave with and without the ball. Previously lower mentalities triggered counter attacks but now appropriate transition instruction is responsible for it. It affects all other instructions in really confusing and abstract manner. No manager would ever try to give instruction and then micro tweak it  to something alse because he dropped ''mentality''. For example is fullback on defend duty making more forward runs on attacking mentality than FB on attack on defensive team mentality? Is BWM on attack mentality making more through balls than lets say DLP on defensive? These simple and clear instructions cannot be tweaked by mentality which doesn't even exist as such in real life. Mentality is sum of all other instructions in real life. Also in FM all other instructions are simple and understandable. Mentality transforms perfectly clear instructions into something alse, which nobody will ever understand let alone AI. It also transforms team style of play to something completely different. Both ends of mentality ledder tactics are questionable to be honest, I really don't think any team can play as witnessed by very attacking tactics (attacking on steroids), it's physically not possible.      

Then there's a question about what mentality actually does and we are told it is about riskiness with which players will play. But isn't riskiness already defined by many other PIs, PPMs and TIs? Can a manager even have such a micro control over players behaviour? Like ''listen you're playing your standard DLP role but this time we will play 40% less risky so I want you to play 40% less risky balls''? No of course not, he will just change players' role if he wants player to play more cautios. This is all so abstract and counter productive, it must be a nightmare to incorporate mentality into something logical in ME - having already defensive/attacking tactic with appropriate instructions and player duties and then adding more defensive/attacking player behaivour which was already defined by all other instructions is overdose as wittnessed in fm19 ME where basic principles of football match were opposite to what is expected, like poor teams outpassing elite ones without firing a shot. Also I have to notice that in tactics forum there is trend to balance attacking tactics with less aggressive duties.      

Edited December 4, 2019 by Mitja