If you think the current fm20 match engine is great, post your tactics

[sporadicsmiles]

43 minutes ago, Obaaa said:

Should rename this thread the 'higher line of engagement, more urgent pressing style' thread

Except I am having success with a low block, low defensive line, direct style of play right now. You just have to think about what you are doing, and why. 

1 hour ago, noikeee said:

All I'm saying is in the current engine playing deep generally doesn't appear to be very safe, and is prone to conceding goals.

Not if you do it right. Defending deep and leaving a bunch of players caught up field after losing the ball is a recipe for disaster. Having proper defensive cover makes it entirely possible. I have never found it hard to set up defensively sound tactics on any FM. If you want tips on defending deep and well, watch Napoli against Liverpool at the moment. Napoli are executing a lox block and a low defence very well (despite just conceding). 

7 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

100% agree, which is why it's currently my favourite match engine of the series so far. 

Agreed. I am having to think about my own tactics, and work to break down sides. Which I find immeasurably fun. I do not want to just have a tactic I know will win every game without any further input from myself. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by sporadicsmiles

[Dagenham_Dave]

14 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Agreed. I am having to think about my own tactics, and work to break down sides. 

One of the reasons why I'm struggling 

But I embrace the challenge of it, it's what a simulation should be. 

[sporadicsmiles]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

One of the reasons why I'm struggling 

Luckily I had some practise at this in FM19, where I finished a journeyman save before FM20 at Zagreb with a superb side full of teams playing with 5 defenders and 2 DMCs! 

[Svenc]

22 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Not if you do it right. Defending deep and leaving a bunch of players caught up field after losing the ball is a recipe for disaster. Having proper defensive cover makes it entirely possible. I have never found it hard to set up defensively sound tactics on any FM. If you want tips on defending deep and well, watch Napoli against Liverpool at the moment. Napoli are executing a lox block and a low defence very well (despite just conceding). 

Despite all, they're still conceding most of their shots from actual open Play. https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1426942/MatchReport/Europe-UEFA-Champions-League-2019-2020-Liverpool-Napoli On FM, defending moves for the added set pieces meanwhile is tons easier than in Football. Actually, it happens by Default as soon as a side sits Deep. The resulting shots will mostly be headers under pressure, oft on target but with a low Chance of conversion, and/or blocked attempts… Speaking of which, I'm tempted to do another stress test,a ctually. Just sticking ALL the guys behind the ball, making them sit back and see how many waves you can last without conceding.  

[CaptainPlanet]

I find winning at this game pretty easy.

I find getting my strikers to regularly score goals from open play impossible.

5-3-2.fmf

Edited November 27, 2019 by CaptainPlanet

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, CaptainPlanet said:

I find winning at this game pretty easy.

I find getting my strikers to regularly score goals from open play impossible.

5-3-2.fmf 43.92 kB · 1 download 

Never been sure about those DPLs on support. Central Players all appear to push some up on the occasion, looks too easy to engage. Also may should struggle to open up space between the lines centrally. -> Better for the tactics Forum tho.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[CaptainPlanet]

4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Central Players all push up, too easy to engage. Also should struggle to open up space between the lines centrally. -> Tactical Forum tho.

The strikers get plenty of good chances, they don't score them. They score from set pieces, they score rebounds, and they have plenty of CCC and 1-on-1s.

[Svenc]

2 minutes ago, CaptainPlanet said:

The strikers get plenty of good chances, they don't score them. They score from set pieces, they score rebounds, and they have plenty of CCC and 1-on-1s.

You were arguing they rarely score from open Play. That implied they wouldn't be getting those chances. Set pieces come About easier if the area the defending Team has to defend is (too) small. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[CaptainPlanet]

2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

You were arguing they rarely score from open Play. That implied they wouldn't be getting those chances. Set pieces come About easier if the area the defending Team has to defend is (too) small. 

The scoring from open play is what I think is noticeably wrong with the ME, especially with any kind of short passing or possession system, particularly in a difficult league like say the Premiership.

And I'd love to be proved wrong, I'd love someone to show me a tactic and a series of games where their strikers are put through on goal and round/lob/blast it past the keeper, where the strikers are scoring long range beauties, or regularly heading in open play crosses etc.

[Svenc]

Well I've just used the tac against the own U19 for a good half+. The scoreline was 1-0 and there was barely a central attempt made from Play. The blue dots are set pieces, the red dots the perennial to be fixed FM 20 Long balls that sees the Forwards in those 1in1ish situations, but are typically finished at tough angles, oft with the fowards closed down and thus not that Grand chances arguably. The Goal was scored from the set piece too.

Mind you, SI should check how many percentages of their shots come About by set pieces vs open Play in General, though. And also compare to that to Football naturally. If that is as much of a pain in the butt to analyze for them than to us…  

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[CaptainPlanet]

Oh it’s not like this is my only tactic or anything, I just uploaded the one I’m winning easiest with.  

Playing around with a 4-2-2-2 hoofball at the moment and having fun

[Deisler26]

[Dagenham_Dave]

35 minutes ago, Deisler26 said:

To me, this tells me the game is broken more than anything else. 

There's no way Jan Kirchhoff is actually fit to play a football match 

[harrycarrie]

Counter attacking + press. Wolves Second season:

 

 

[armyissue69]

I use the Butterfly Tactic. I have 3 Set Ups, 1 for Positive, Cautious and Defensive. Just sold a few players, but I'm doing OK. I hadn't seen anyone else posting this tactic, so I thought I'd share. Enjoy!

[sporadicsmiles]

8 hours ago, Svenc said:

Despite all, they're still conceding most of their shots from actual open Play.

That is fine though. Defending is not about preventing shots, it is about making those shots least dangerous. Liverpool did not create many clear goal scoring chances. Napoli defended excellently. I actually though of FM when looking at the game. Liverpool dominated the second half entirely. Many shots, only one goal. Napoli scored from their only goal. I actually really enjoyed this game! 

[Svenc]

38 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

That is fine though. Defending is not about preventing shots, it is about making those shots least dangerous. Liverpool did not create many clear goal scoring chances. Napoli defended excellently. I actually though of FM when looking at the game. Liverpool dominated the second half entirely. Many shots, only one goal. Napoli scored from their only goal. I actually really enjoyed this game! 

The difference as to FM, and this is the Frustration that many are having, is that These set piece shots pile up some as soon as an Opposition Plays defensive Football some. As the game doesn't collect stats for this, this oft isn't even noticed much, except for the Shot and SOT conversions taking a nose dive. How much so then depends on the user tactic. That tactic Needs to stretch that defense, some or else it has it even easier to get a foot into the move. I have never seen a game of FM ever in which an attacking Team vs a defensive one in a low block had this high a percentage of shots from open Play (yesterday too). Liverpool yesterday atop of having 12 of its 15 shots total from play even had a genuine counter attack shot on the break, actually (Salah, 60ish Minute in). Those are basically dead in the water as soon as you sit Deep on FM. In particular against the game's defense AI, anyway, which keeps a truckload of Players behind the ball in Possession alongside to droppind Deep.  

Therefore, open Play defending as such can't be all that bad. Perhaps it's even way more efficient than an average low block in real Football. When defending Deep on FM, the Thing to pay added Attention to may actually be the defensive set piece tactics...

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, Svenc said:

I have never seen a game of FM ever in which an attacking Team vs a defensive one in a low block had this high a percentage of shots from open Play (yesterday too). Liverpool yesterday atop of having 12 of its 15 shots total from play even had a genuine counter attack shot on the break, actually (Salah, 60ish Minute in).

A lot of people when playing against sides who are defending in FM tend to use slow possession tactics with work ball into box. So they are actively avoiding shooting, and trying to thread a pass through the eye of a needle every time. Sometimes you just have to blast it. This leads to large number of set piece chances, both because you are inviting a foul and it is one of the only ways you get the ball into a scoring position. The best way to look at that, if you are interested, is to sample some AI vs AI games. See what they are doing relative to different users.

[Johnny Ace]

15 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

A lot of people when playing against sides who are defending in FM tend to use slow possession tactics with work ball into box. So they are actively avoiding shooting, and trying to thread a pass through the eye of a needle every time. Sometimes you just have to blast it. This leads to large number of set piece chances, both because you are inviting a foul and it is one of the only ways you get the ball into a scoring position. The best way to look at that, if you are interested, is to sample some AI vs AI games. See what they are doing relative to different users.

I use the complete opposite, the in-game hints even say WBIB is no good against defensive teams, hit 'em hard & hit 'em fast before they can get back into defensive position & it's the same result (this is exactly why I don't have a possession preference)  

I've seen AI vs AI games, I uploaded Palace (assume defensive counter) vs City (assume attacking) & City only won from 3 corners

Like Sven says, Liverpool had a bunch of chances from open play against a defensive team, VVD even played a through pass looking for Robertson on the overload at one point. England vs Kosovo the other week were still playing playing central forward passes v a 5 at the back system      

Edited November 28, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[noikeee]

11 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

A lot of people when playing against sides who are defending in FM tend to use slow possession tactics with work ball into box. So they are actively avoiding shooting, and trying to thread a pass through the eye of a needle every time. Sometimes you just have to blast it. This leads to large number of set piece chances, both because you are inviting a foul and it is one of the only ways you get the ball into a scoring position. The best way to look at that, if you are interested, is to sample some AI vs AI games. See what they are doing relative to different users.

This is a) natural - in real life teams that play possession and camp around the opposition box against a deep defence, will get plenty of set pieces; and b) a result of what people got used to in previous FMs, because if you didn't slow yourself down, your team would attempt a ridiculous amount of inconsequential long shots, almost all of them blocked. What's new in this FM is that teams actually play pretty patient even on higher mentalities, and from FM19 onwards long shots became much more dangerous overall too, so slowing yourself down vs a low block and avoiding shooting feels like it's no longer necessary, or a very good strategy for tackling this scenario. But I can absolutely understand why people retain these old habits. It's also a very natural reaction to the "wingers shoots into the sidenet" issue. 

What FM should actually reward in these cases, are teams that manage to stretch the low block horizontally and vertically, and create overloads in certain areas until cracks appear. This is how really good possession teams IRL get out of these situations and create goals. However, given the many, many goofy problems with decision making in the game (the most notable one that players don't prioritise playing through the middle enough, so space either never opens up in the middle or if it does the ball isn't played through there), this doesn't feel viable in a natural way. There are ways to do it in FM20, in some matches simply using two WBs on support and two inside forwards or IWs, is enough to destroy the opposition. But IMO something doesn't quite feel right. With this strategy matches play out in a goofy way, the IFs/IWs are way too efficient at dragging the defensive fullback inside, opening up an enormous highway for the WB to run into, but then the attacking WB comes inside way too much too and often shoots into the sidenet himself. And there should be other viable plans, ex. create wide overloads then hit them with runners through the center; or keep a couple players really wide to stretch the opposition then overload the center. I've not had much luck with any of that, except for using a Mezzala to overload a flank which can work very well but that also plays out goofily in other ways. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

On 27/11/2019 at 11:50, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, as an update to this, here how the tactic has evolved. I've also been able to strengthen the squad this January, which has also helped massively, but the football I'm watching now is pretty glorious at times. (Well, for SPL football anyway )

I start all matches on balanced now, so I can get a feel for how the opposition set up. The tactic retains certain aggressive elements, but I don't press with the same intensity, and I don't have all three forward players on attack (this changes in-game also). It's been great having Batista-Meier in there, he's such a good player at that level. Whilst I always start exploiting the wide areas, this can change in-game also. For example, in the last game away vs St Mirren, it was 0-0 at half time. Checked out various analysis information, and decided it might be a better idea to exploit the middle instead. The end result was Slivka and Mallan coming to life, scoring a brace each, and the team winning 5-0. In fact, since I tweaked the tactic and brought in some better players to fit in it, this has been my results. 

A marked improvement on what had happened before. The 2-2 draw at Celtic Park was particularly pleasing, as I was constantly reacting to the AI's changes, and got a late equaliser as a result. In contrast, I lost the first game there this season, 4-0. 

This is by far the best version of the game I've played since the very first one in 1993. It's more involving tactically, and I find it more of a rewarding challenge rather than just an outright difficult one. Which is nice. Well done SI 

[pats]

I think the current ME is great and here's why:

I just played an Italian series A match in my first season (so no transfers) as Sampdoria (11th) vs Conte's Inter (5th). I won the match 1-0 with 'Balanced' mentality, 'no counter pressing', 'no counter', with 2 mezzalas, 2 forwards and a Trequartista at AMC position. I wasn't sitting back or wasn't over-committing.  I restricted Inter to ZERO long shots and just a single half chance. Their 8 shots were just hopeful header and shots under pressure. Sure I didn't create much either but I was the underdog and had already lost to Juventus, Lazio, Milan, Fiorentina trying to play ambitious football. My tactics did EXACTLY what I wanted in this match even though there are no partnership links between my players and the cohesion is just about average. Loving this year's version.

Here are some screenshots of the match:

 

[noikeee]

15 minutes ago, pats said:

I think the current ME is great and here's why:

I just played an Italian series A match in my first season (so no transfers) as Sampdoria (11th) vs Conte's Inter (5th). I won the match 1-0 with 'Balanced' mentality, 'no counter pressing', 'no counter', with 2 mezzalas, 2 forwards and a Trequartista at AMC position. I wasn't sitting back or wasn't over-committing.  I restricted Inter to ZERO long shots and just a single half chance. Their 8 shots were just hopeful header and shots under pressure. Sure I didn't create much either but I was the underdog and had already lost to Juventus, Lazio, Milan, Fiorentina trying to play ambitious football. My tactics did EXACTLY what I wanted in this match even though there are no partnership links between my players and the cohesion is just about average. Loving this year's version.

Here are some screenshots of the match:

I'd be interested in knowing if you can get this to work on the long term - winning one match means absolutely nothing at all. I suspect it might be very difficult to make this work long term because a) you will be open to teams that try to break you down the flanks with attacking fullbacks and crosses (a classic 4-4-2 diamond problem); b) this setup suits your underdog status, but I doubt you will be able to create goals once you grow in status to become favourites for matches, because teams won't give you space to run into.

If you get this working on the long term you're the first person to get Trequartistas or F9s to be a part of a working system.

Edited November 28, 2019 by noikeee

[pats]

3 minutes ago, noikeee said:

I'd be interested in knowing if you can get this to work on the long term - wnning one match means absolutely nothing at all. I suspect it might be very difficult to make this work long term because a) you will be open to teams that try to break you down the flanks with attacking fullbacks and crosses (a classic 4-4-2 diamond problem); b) this setup suits your underdog status, but I doubt you will be able to create goals once you grow in status to become favourites for matches, because teams won't give you space to run into.

If you get this working on the long term you're the first person to get Trequartistas or F9s to be a part of a working system.

I started using this tactics for the last 4 games (Roma, Genoa, Torino and Inter) which I all won 1-0 (screenshot attached). Let's see how it goes in the long term. Before I started using this tactics, I was playing wide 4-2-4 which didn't work as much as I would have liked. I'll go back to that tactics once I have a settled position and cohesive squad.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by pats

[Dagenham_Dave]

21 hours ago, noikeee said:

So basically nobody is overacheiving with any lower mentalities than balanced. And people who don't see shots into the sidenet are people who either have their wingers very wide (due to higher mentality, this by default keeps your width higher), or on support roles so they remain deeper and don't break beyond the defensive line into those positions in which they shoot from the byline. 

Also everyone who is doing well is playing higher lines, because on this ME it appears that dropping deep is suicidal, the AI will kill you by long shots or death by a thousand papercuts by cornering you around your area for too long until something sticks. High pressing then stacks up upon this, to prevent long balls over the top. 

And also almost everyone is using some sort of attacking fullbacks/supporting wingbacks (or instructions like overlap) because they are crazy overpowered.

The absence of trequartistas, enganches, false nines in this thread is also notable, admittedly they are a niche kind of player but IMO absolutely useless in this ME because they're bypassed in the latter stages of chance creation. Also absent is any other overload of the AMC area.

There's so much wrong with this, I really don't know where to begin. 

But in essence, it's the typical, 'you're only doing well because of this and not because of that'. Something I've never really understood. However, to pick apart some of it...

Quote

And people who don't see shots into the sidenet are people who either have their wingers very wide (due to higher mentality, this by default keeps your width higher), or on support roles so they remain deeper

So, the people who don't see these shots are the people who play the wingers on higher mentalities or those who play them on lower mentalities (support)? A slight contradiction, it's almost as if you're making it up as you go along. But I degress, next..this pearler...

Quote

Also everyone who is doing well is playing higher lines, because on this ME it appears that dropping deep is suicidal,

How high my defensive line starts (or changes) is based on how good the opposition is, whether I'm home or away to them, or if I need to change it in game. Dropping deep is definitely NOT suicidal, in fact it massively helped me get a point against Celtic as Forrest and Edouard were getting in behind my defence too often due to their pace. 

Quote

And also almost everyone is using some sort of attacking fullbacks/supporting wingbacks (or instructions like overlap) because they are crazy overpowered.

Attacking fullbacks or wingbacks are almost ubiquitous in the modern game now. Have you watched the likes of Liverpool over the last few years? Most AI teams also tend to play with a more attacking fullback (depending who they are of course), so I don't know how it can be overpowered if the AI uses it too. 

Quote

The absence of trequartistas, enganches, false nines in this thread is also notable,

I can only speak for myself here, these are roles I don't really have the players for to do them justice. That said, I did try Kamberi as a Treq in one game, and adjusted the PI's to make it more like a complete forward, and it still failed miserably. He's just not good enough for it. 

Quote

Also absent is any other overload of the AMC area.

I don't need an AMC as one of my CM's is an AP who basically gets into similar areas. And whether it's been Scott Allan or Slivka in there, they've both been highly effective just behind the striker when the team is attacking. 

 

Apart from all that though, your post was absolutely spot on 

[noikeee]

15 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, the people who don't see these shots are the people who play the wingers on higher mentalities or those who play them on lower mentalities (support)? A slight contradiction, it's almost as if you're making it up as you go along. But I degress, next..this pearler...

 

You don't see wingers shooting into the sidenet if you have your team playing WIDER, because they are too wide to trigger the shooting into sidenet behaviour. Positive/attacking mentality automatically makes your team play a little wider than default, unless you tick PLAY NARROWER, so they'll shoot into the sidenet slightly less often.
You also don't see wingers shooting into the sidenet if you have them on SUPPORT DUTY, because they don't break into the byline and remain deeper.

You do see wingers shooting into the sidenet if you have them on ATTACK DUTY and NARROWER (or normal) WIDTH.

This is simple and logical, not contradictory.

17 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

How high my defensive line starts (or changes) is based on how good the opposition is, whether I'm home or away to them, or if I need to change it in game. Dropping deep is definitely NOT suicidal, in fact it massively helped me get a point against Celtic as Forrest and Edouard were getting in behind my defence too often due to their pace. 

 

It's helpful in certain games but not in the long run playing a deep line every match.

You're playing a 4-3-3 midfield type of shape (DM, CM, CM) which I found helps stability immensely, so I can see why you don't share my feelings low lines are bad. I've found a 4-2-3-1 midfield type shape (MC, MC, AMC or DM, DM, AMC) is much much much more dangerous with a lower defensive line. I basically tried everything and anything with lower lines of engagement etc and couldn't stop long shots from coming in whatever I did in that shape. To be fair the 4-2-3-1 is not naturally suited to a lower block, but I found it off how difficult it was to keep the lines tight together if I tried to.

I might've overgeneralized by saying lower lines are suicidal, that's not true in every circumstance you're right there, but I do feel on the long run they're less likely to be successful and combine with fewer possible setups, hence why in this thread you're seeing most people play with higher lines.

21 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Attacking fullbacks or wingbacks are almost ubiquitous in the modern game now. Have you watched the likes of Liverpool over the last few years? Most AI teams also tend to play with a more attacking fullback (depending who they are of course), so I don't know how it can be overpowered if the AI uses it too. 

 

It's true in the modern game attacking fullbacks are standard and it's correct that they tend to be a good tactical option. They however play vastly different IRL than they play in-game. In-game as soon as you play IFs or IWs it's too easy to pin the AI fullbacks far too narrow, opening up enormous highways for your attacking WBs that are unrealistic. It's more unrealistic that these attacking wingbacks then come crazy narrow (and crazy high!), operating as if they're Leroy Sane winning the byline within the area.

Defensive AI sides hardly ever play attacking fullbacks, so not every AI side uses it. I think almost everyone will struggle more against the AI when they decide to use it, though.

26 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I can only speak for myself here, these are roles I don't really have the players for to do them justice. That said, I did try Kamberi as a Treq in one game, and adjusted the PI's to make it more like a complete forward, and it still failed miserably. He's just not good enough for it. 

 

Well, I haven't spoken about your setup neither.

27 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I don't need an AMC as one of my CM's is an AP who basically gets into similar areas. And whether it's been Scott Allan or Slivka in there, they've both been highly effective just behind the striker when the team is attacking. 

Advanced playmakers on the CM position are much much much more effective than AMC playmakers and deep-lying STs in FM20. They play from a deeper position and naturally face play and influence the game pretty well. I am not surprised in the slightest it works for you, it worked for me too.

Now play them a little further up and it's a completely different story, they will always play with their back to goal and almost always bypassed in build-up play.

The one slight exception I feel is a AP/S from a AMC position, but that's just because he drops deep enough to connect with play a little. Trequartistas, Enganches, AP/A from a AMC position, F9s, DLF/Ss, good luck with them.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, noikeee said:

 

You don't see wingers shooting into the sidenet if you have your team playing WIDER, because they are too wide to trigger the shooting into sidenet behaviour. Positive/attacking mentality automatically makes your team play a little wider than default, unless you tick PLAY NARROWER, so they'll shoot into the sidenet slightly less often.
You also don't see wingers shooting into the sidenet if you have them on SUPPORT DUTY, because they don't break into the byline and remain deeper.

You do see wingers shooting into the sidenet if you have them on ATTACK DUTY and NARROWER (or normal) WIDTH.

This is simple and logical, not contradictory.

 

 

So wingers will shoot towards goal if they have an attacking mentality and are running closer to the goal? Wow, would never have been able to predict this outcome. 

You've basically just admitted this issue is a tactical one. Well done. 

[pats]

I'm going to try Advanced playmaker instead of Trequartista at AMC position in the next match against Parma (away). Let's see how it goes.

Edited November 28, 2019 by pats

[noikeee]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So wingers will shoot towards goal if they have an attacking mentality and are running closer to the goal? Wow, would never have been able to predict this outcome. 

You've basically just admitted this issue is a tactical one. Well done. 

I think you'll find hundreds of examples around this forum of players shooting from extremely tight angles, which is what I'm refering to as unrealistic.

The problem isn't that they shoot a lot. The problem is that they wait until they're on the byline to shoot, and ignore central passing options for cutbacks. This is why narrow wingers/IFs/IWs on attack duty are currently not effective.

[herne79]

22 hours ago, noikeee said:

So basically nobody is overacheiving with any lower mentalities than balanced. And people who don't see shots into the sidenet are people who either have their wingers very wide (due to higher mentality, this by default keeps your width higher), or on support roles so they remain deeper and don't break beyond the defensive line into those positions in which they shoot from the byline. 

Also everyone who is doing well is playing higher lines, because on this ME it appears that dropping deep is suicidal, the AI will kill you by long shots or death by a thousand papercuts by cornering you around your area for too long until something sticks. High pressing then stacks up upon this, to prevent long balls over the top. 

And also almost everyone is using some sort of attacking fullbacks/supporting wingbacks (or instructions like overlap) because they are crazy overpowered.

The absence of trequartistas, enganches, false nines in this thread is also notable, admittedly they are a niche kind of player but IMO absolutely useless in this ME because they're bypassed in the latter stages of chance creation. Also absent is any other overload of the AMC area.

I just beat Man City as West Ham (and am over achieving in the league) using (going by your bolded order):

1) Cautious mentality.

2) I use one winger on support, the other on attack.  No change to attacking width from the default set by Cautious (so fairly narrow).

3) No change to my def line, pressing or LoE from the default set by the Cautious mentality (ie., quite low).

4) Both my Wingbacks have a defend duty (no overlap instruction).

5) I use a Trequartista at AMC (he scored the winner against Man City, it was a 1v1 after he got in behind their defence).

Below are my shots map and match stats.  You'll notice I have no shots from tight angles, no long range efforts from outside the area and a low amount of crosses.  Both my goals were scored from open play.  There were no penalties awarded in the match.  I'm playing a 4411 formation.

Now, this is just me and I fully appreciate other people don't get such results.  Different tactical styles can lead to different results and have different impacts on the ME.  But generalising in this manner helps the myth snowball that nothing can be done in all situations.

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, noikeee said:

What FM should actually reward in these cases, are teams that manage to stretch the low block horizontally and vertically, and create overloads in certain areas until cracks appear.

This is pretty much how to break down a defensive side in FM though. It is what I have been doing for a while now. What I see a lot from screenshots of people who have issues here is everyone camped in the central part of the pitch, and the AI vertically and horizontally compact. Which is exactly the opposite of what is required. It is by no means obvious though. Took me years to get the hang of setting up teams on FM. I used to be in the frustrated not understanding why I cannot beat teams crowd.

3 hours ago, noikeee said:

There are ways to do it in FM20, in some matches simply using two WBs on support and two inside forwards or IWs, is enough to destroy the opposition. But IMO something doesn't quite feel right. With this strategy matches play out in a goofy way, the IFs/IWs are way too efficient at dragging the defensive fullback inside, opening up an enormous highway for the WB to run into, but then the attacking WB comes inside way too much too and often shoots into the sidenet himself.

Granted. I am not overly happy with the way wide play works right now. Although the thing about attacking a defensive side is you want to damn the AI if it does or does not react. If they react and commit men to an overload on a flank, they open the middle and opposite flank. If they do not react, you have time to attack or access the area from the wide area of the pitch. Crossing needs to be more intelligent in this game than it currently is though.

3 hours ago, noikeee said:

And there should be other viable plans, ex. create wide overloads then hit them with runners through the center; or keep a couple players really wide to stretch the opposition then overload the center.

I do this as well, so it is possible. Wide overloads also create a bunch of space on the opposite flank to the ball, which is dangerous. A winger, wing back and mezalla overload is very hard to handle (for human players too), because you have to commit at least one midfielder. You can use a deep pivot to get the ball quickly to the opposite flank, and then the AI defense is reacting and that is when you can score. I have quite a few goals like this to unmarked midfielders or strikers in the box who can receive a pass/cross (a sideways pass from wide, which I never know if it is counted as a pass or a cross by the game).

It is tricky though, and it will not always work. You can also use an entirely different tactic which is to back off and let the AI come out. Drop the D line and pressing, no counter press until they hit midfield. Then press, win the ball, have a fast transition before they set their defensive line back. This works against teams who actually try to play the ball a bit. It is true to real life that it is hard to score against a defensive side. I have little issue with it being hard to beat these teams. It is why an early goal in such a game is absolute bliss.

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

use the complete opposite, the in-game hints even say WBIB is no good against defensive teams, hit 'em hard & hit 'em fast before they can get back into defensive position & it's the same result (this is exactly why I don't have a possession preference)  

That is the good way to do it, I agree. I speak of people I see posting their tactic struggles, and when they have screenshots the entire team is camped centrally and 8 players are squashed in and around the penalty area defending. This is coupled with possession based tactics I would use when I am trying to see out a game against such a side. It is a biased sample, since I only see people posting this when they struggle. But it is a good number of people. Breaking down defensive sides can be really fun and extremely frustrating at the same time.

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I've seen AI vs AI games, I uploaded Palace (assume defensive counter) vs City (assume attacking) & City only won from 3 corners

Like Sven says, Liverpool had a bunch of chances from open play against a defensive team, VVD even played a through pass looking for Robertson on the overload at one point. England vs Kosovo the other week were still playing playing central forward passes v a 5 at the back system      

It is why it is good to have a good set piece routine for these games. I mean, you talk about Liverpool creating chances from open play. None of them were particularly good. This was not a game where the 'keeper made amazing save after amazing save and kept Napoli in it. They scored from a set piece to equalize.

I am playing a save as Benfica at the moment because I plan to eventually write a post about this on the tactics forums. I score a variety of goals. Sometimes I have to wait for a corner to get my goal. Sometimes a lucky penalty. That is the game. Other times I break teams down by stretching them and forcing them to react to me. We should not always be creating lots of chances against defensive sides. It should be a struggle to break them down. I have little issue with that. I think there is much that could be improved with the attacking (and the defending for that matter). Play out wide is still not great. Movement up front is not great. Midfielders do not always pick the best pass. Defensive reaction times sometimes feel off. I do not think it is particularly unreasonable at the moment though, and can be really nice if they fix the issues.

[noikeee]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I just beat Man City as West Ham (and am over achieving in the league) using (going by your bolded order):

1) Cautious mentality.

2) I use one winger on support, the other on attack.  No change to attacking width from the default set by Cautious (so fairly narrow).

3) No change to my def line or LoE from the default set by the Cautious mentality (ie., quite low).

4) Both my Wingbacks have a defend duty.

5) I use a Trequartista at AMC (he scored the winner against Man City).

Below are my shots map and match stats.  You'll notice I have no shots from tight angles, no long range efforts from outside the area and a low amount of crosses.  Both my goals were scored from open play.  There were no penalties awarded in the match.  I'm playing a 4411 formation.

Now, this is just me and I fully appreciate other people don't get such results.  Different tactical styles can lead to different results and have different impacts on the ME.  But generalising in this manner helps the myth snowball that nothing can be done in all situations.

- you're playing against Man Cit,y so you're heavy underdogs, so I'm presuming the AI went quite attacking on you. This immediately makes a) the game much more open for you than usual, b) it's a situational example that would be hard to replicate on the long run. I presume you don't keep playing that tactic on the long run for most matches. All the things I've said before, apply to tactics that people use as their primary plan for playing in most matches, not for situational occasions in which yes, I agree lots of very different things can and do work.

- you have narrow wingers but they play from deeper on the MR and ML position not AMR/AML. You are also playing against a team that presumably gave you heaps of space to counter-attack (which usually triggers long balls into space for the striker to run into). No wonder that your wingers rarely won the byline for the "shoots into the sidenet" problem to appear - that would be much more common in situations in which your attackers woud be pinging the ball around a deep defence.

- I am surprised that shape (4-4-1-1) on a low block, stopped Man City from beating you through long shots and set pieces. Maybe this AI side didn't set up in such a way that this problem would appear; or maybe that shape is more stable than I thought, because admitedly I haven't used that one much myself.

- I find some kind of attacking fullbacks is key to possession/attacking/gegenpressing-type tactics, but I didn't say they were mandatory for winning every single match on every system. I've found myself that even WB/Ds can be wildly attacking in some occasions though!

- I'm not surprised your Trequartista scored a goal, AMCs on attack duty are very good at running into the area and scoring. I would, however, be a bit more surprised if he was particularly involved in build-up play / creating chances for others. However, since this is a match in which the AI gave you heaps of space to counter in, and you don't have high-up wingers (which absorb every single bit of build-up play in this engine), I guess it's not super impossible.

------------------

I am guilty of writing over-generalizing things in this thread, yes. However, please note one thing. You're a very advanced kind of user that knows how to adapt things in a match-per-match basis, and spot what the AI is doing through a match and react. Most people that play FM, and I'm guessing the vast majority of people reading and writing in this thread, do not do this. They keep 1 tactic that they play every match, and maybe 1 alternate plan, or tweak little things here and there. My comments on what "works" or not, are based on this type of playing the game - of what kind of tactic you can load and keep mostly on auto-pilot with minor situational tweaks.

Whether people should be able to be successful at all by playing this way, not adapting tactics much, is a different debate. I personally think this should be a valid playing style, but if and only if your tactical setup makes sense and fits your players, maybe getting caught out here and there occasionally. I don't think this is happening on FM20 unless you follow those patterns I mentioned earlier, many of them which I feel are illogical and symptoms of subtle inbalances in the game. It's not quite major exploits like we had in some versions, but the cumulative effect really doesn't feel right.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Midfielders do not always pick the best pass. 

In fairness, this is the way it should be. But I know what you mean. 

[Svenc]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The best way to look at that, if you are interested, is to sample some AI vs AI games. See what they are doing relative to different users.

The AI has been having lots of set piece (shots) itself. HOwever, not necessarily as many as some user tactics, unless it's doing something obviously stupid again….   
 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, noikeee said:

 

I am guilty of writing over-generalizing things in this thread, yes.

You think?

It's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about on the other thread. You're way too obsessed by everything working perfectly, you've completely forgotten how to enjoy the thing. 

[herne79]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

You think?

It's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about on the other thread. You're way too obsessed by everything working perfectly, you've completely forgotten how to enjoy the thing. 

Dave, that doesn't help.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Dave, that doesn't help.

It should though. You have to admit there are quite a few on here who over-analyse everything in the game, constantly looking for fault in it. How is that any way to enjoy something you use as a hobby in your spare time? That would drive me insane. 

[noikeee]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

You think?

It's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about on the other thread. You're way too obsessed by everything working perfectly, you've completely forgotten how to enjoy the thing. 

Well, I've not exactly been shy in admitting I've not really enjoyed this game for a very long time, so I guess you might be right on that. Once upon a time I did though, a lot, so that's why I insist.

However, I don't appreciate the unprovoked snarky comments you've been throwing at me all the way throughout this thread.

[noikeee]

11 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I do this as well, so it is possible. Wide overloads also create a bunch of space on the opposite flank to the ball, which is dangerous. A winger, wing back and mezalla overload is very hard to handle (for human players too), because you have to commit at least one midfielder. You can use a deep pivot to get the ball quickly to the opposite flank, and then the AI defense is reacting and that is when you can score. I have quite a few goals like this to unmarked midfielders or strikers in the box who can receive a pass/cross (a sideways pass from wide, which I never know if it is counted as a pass or a cross by the game).

It is tricky though, and it will not always work. You can also use an entirely different tactic which is to back off and let the AI come out. Drop the D line and pressing, no counter press until they hit midfield. Then press, win the ball, have a fast transition before they set their defensive line back. This works against teams who actually try to play the ball a bit. It is true to real life that it is hard to score against a defensive side. I have little issue with it being hard to beat these teams. It is why an early goal in such a game is absolute bliss.

 

Yeah some good points there.

I think wide overloads are possible and effective (that combo of WB+mezzala+attacking winger (or IW) is particularly good yes), but central overloads aren't.

[herne79]

4 minutes ago, noikeee said:

I presume you don't keep playing that tactic on the long run for most matches.

You presume incorrectly, leading onto..

5 minutes ago, noikeee said:

However, please note one thing. You're a very advanced kind of user that knows how to adapt things in a match-per-match basis, and spot what the AI is doing through a match and react. Most people that play FM, and I'm guessing the vast majority of people reading and writing in this thread, do not do this. They keep 1 tactic that they play every match, and maybe 1 alternate plan, or tweak little things here and there.

I appreciate I may not be the average user and yes I do (sometimes) know how to adapt things and spot what the AI's up to, however this particular save is following on from this article I wrote last year where I don't really change anything other than using touchline shouts.  For this save, I use 2 TIs (Shorter Passing and Be More Disciplined) and very occasionally I've made a little tweak during a match.

btw I've also used a 4231 to similar effect with 1 support / 1 attack duty winger, however I do prefer how my AMC behaves in this 4411 set up and I've found it trickier to get him working as I want in the 4231.

[Vicz]

I haven't read this whole thread and I'm not saying that there aren't some viable tactics out there but one thing that is undeniably wrong with the ME is the shooting from the byline/ridiculously narrow angles. How that's made it through to the full release is beggar's belief in honesty. Quite hard to play the game while that's happening.

1 on 1s don't seem great either but that's more subjective.

My friend who I play a network game with is running a 3-5-2 formation which seems to absolutely destroy the AI, so I guess thats working...

[noikeee]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You presume incorrectly, leading onto..

I appreciate I may not be the average user and yes I do (sometimes) know how to adapt things and spot what the AI's up to, however this particular save is following on from this article I wrote last year where I don't really change anything other than using touchline shouts.  For this save, I use 2 TIs (Shorter Passing and Be More Disciplined) and very occasionally I've made a little tweak during a match.

btw I've also used a 4231 to similar effect with 1 support / 1 attack duty winger, however I do prefer how my AMC behaves in this 4411 set up and I've found it trickier to get him working as I want in the 4231.

Fair enough.

Maybe the key here is that ML/MRs are considerably more stable than AMR/AMLs in more defensive minded systems. I did try a 4-1-4-1 shape for that purpose (DM, MR, ML, MC, MC) but I struggled with it as it invited too much pressure. However that 4-1-4-1 shape, unless it's done well, asks a lot of the striker to relieve pressure when we win the ball, if you keep a AMC higher up to help him out it might be better.

I just don't have enough experience with shapes that use ML/MR instead of AML/AMR and my generalizations are a bit based upon that.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, noikeee said:

Well, I've not exactly been shy in admitting I've not really enjoyed this game for a very long time, so I guess you might be right on that.

I'm very seldom wrong. 

[noikeee]

6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'm very seldom wrong. 

Your humility is charming.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, noikeee said:

Your humility is charming.

Just the facts ma'am .

[Vicz]

I’ve had a bit of a read and I’m seeing those that are saying they’re not getting the “side-netting” issue are playing FB/WB as opposed to CWB - so I’m gonna try that and see if anything changes.

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 minutes ago, Vicz said:

I’ve had a bit of a read and I’m seeing those that are saying they’re not getting the “side-netting” issue are playing FB/WB as opposed to CWB - so I’m gonna try that and see if anything changes.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Mentality, TIs, PI's, opposition, shape etc etc are all a factor. 

[Svenc]

 The widish guys are too easy through on Goal  the keeper in general. So it is no surprise that some see more of this and some less, as tactical input makes those player sit wider / more narrow to begin with. That is, they would approach the goal all from different angles, depending on their starting Position encouraged by tactics. Once the defending of wide players is fixed, the situations themselves should come down themselves. The decision making may generally still need a good tweaking, so that not every time a Forward approaches the goalmouth, he'd be that selfish to blast it.

I'd love to see some stats as to General conversion also. To me most of These chances are 1 in 5 chances at best. That would still class them as "big chances" in the wider context, given that this is twice as high a Chance of conversion than the average Chance in Football. However streaks of missing 6, 7, 8 would still be perfectly viable and Pretty common place, in particular considering the hundreds of thousands playing this. Only that after the fix those misses would be stretched out over many Matches, rather than a few / a single one. Which would Change the perception of Things all itself some.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[RandomGuy.]

Probably be mocked for the higher line of engagement and told thats the only reason it works, but there we go. Against Celtic and Rangers, who are far too strong, the full backs go to Defend, and the attacking midfielder turns to support. Try and stay Positive as it seems to encourage players forward when we get the ball. Striker is on 12 goals for the season. 

Sort of works. Struggled against Motherwell who play with two strikers and an AM, and play a "Route One" style. First game against them is when I first tried out the defending full backs and it worked, so tried it against Rangers and Celtic aswell, and I'll be sticking by it. Kilmarnock play Cattenacio with a 4-1-4-1 deep line and I cannot figure out how to break through that, going to try 4-4-2 next and just pump balls into the box and see what happens.

My IW(a) doesn't ever hit shots into the side netting. This is his last two games. He was brilliant last season but has struggled to get chances this time, unsure if the AI have identified him as a key player and now mark him differently (is that possible)? Or if he's just struggling.

[Weller1980]

What’s the point in setting up tactics when the ME just ignores them? I simply cannot play in the style I want because the ME is unable to get attacking players to play the ball forward, my attacking players always play the ball sideways, every time it’s so annoying. Not matter what formation and tactic so what’s the point?

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Weller1980