Stop milking the FM-franchise with new versions every year!!

[fcunitedfan]

A minor annoyance for more casual fans like me is that is very difficult to participate in the discussion with so many versions around. If you don´t have the latest iteration, it gets pretty confusing to discuss flaws since you don´t know if they are still present in the latest version.

Just think if for example FM05, FM08 and FM11 were the only FM-games around. Instead of small, incremental steps these three games would have been truly different and major sequels.

If you have a question about any version of the game, all you have to do is ask that question on the forums. There's always someone who'll happily answer your question. Also, if you want to discuss a cetain verson of the game, I'm pretty sure others will discuss it with you. There may even be forums on the net specifically made for certain versions of the game.

[Lem]

In general I would agree but I don't believe this is the case with SI.

From an outside point of view they keep staff well, the staff that post on the forums have demonstrated a genuine passion for the game over the years and therefore I don't believe its a case of them not caring about bugs etc.

I am confident that as a company they attempt to make FM as bug free as possible on release unfortunately the type of industry they are in and the depth that FM has to it means its a thankless task.

I wouldn't say it's the individual staff or testers here that don't care, but I'd say the management of the company don't. It's obvious the staff have a difficult job, and only a minority could be letting them down, but they just don't have enough time to complete the workload they have (or are too short staffed - depending how you look at it).

This is down to the overall management IMO as despite the best efforts of the staff it still falls short, and has done for some time. I apologise if it seems I'm blaming the ones on this board, and I hope others realise too that although they often deliver a frustrating message, it's unlikely they are responsible for that policy or attitude.

[Cougar2010]

I wouldn't say it's the individual staff or testers here that don't care, but I'd say the management of the company don't. It's obvious the staff have a difficult job, and only a minority could be letting them down, but they just don't have enough time to complete the workload they have (or are too short staffed - depending how you look at it).

This is down to the overall management IMO as despite the best efforts of the staff it still falls short, and has done for some time. I apologise if it seems I'm blaming the ones on this board, and I hope others realise too that although they often deliver a frustrating message, it's unlikely they are responsible for that policy or attitude.

I would agree with your statement for many companies but SI wouldn't be one of them.

Paul & Ov created CM, created SI, grown over the years, had spells away from the game but are both heavily involved in making FM (Paul codes the ME for instance) while Miles despite not being a coder shows a genuine passion for the game in interviews etc.

[Ackter]

A minor annoyance for more casual fans like me is that is very difficult to participate in the discussion with so many versions around. If you don´t have the latest iteration, it gets pretty confusing to discuss flaws since you don´t know if they are still present in the latest version.

Just think if for example FM05, FM08 and FM11 were the only FM-games around. Instead of small, incremental steps these three games would have been truly different and major sequels.

And also they'd be far, far more bugged on release than if they were incremental. Nothing a dev studio can do can replicate the sheer amount of bugs reproduced by the paying public. They do everything they can before release but you can't overlook the huge impact that having a bugs forum on here can have.

[Wiitastic]

isnt there a total redo (looks wise) every 4 releases ? when was the last time the look of it changed ? is it due for a redo (the look) ?

[stevvy]

I don't see any issue personally.

[Da-man]

This is a bona fide, money-making company (which helps if they want to have a paid staff). They need to produce a product at regular intervals or they will not make the money they need to stay solvent. They make the product and we as consumers decide whether or not to purchase it; if a lot of people purchase their product then the company will continue to produce more products, if not then... I sure most of you get the point. Simple supply and demand; they just don't have the capital to pay devs to support one version of the game for more than a specific period of time. (though I'd love if this was some kind of social service)

[cruyff14]

A minor annoyance for more casual fans like me is that is very difficult to participate in the discussion with so many versions around. If you don´t have the latest iteration, it gets pretty confusing to discuss flaws since you don´t know if they are still present in the latest version.

Just think if for example FM05, FM08 and FM11 were the only FM-games around. Instead of small, incremental steps these three games would have been truly different and major sequels.

I'd say that with it being difficult to participate in discussions is probably more to do with how the forums are set up not really a call to change how the game is released.

I do agree it can be confusing in the forums when they are talking about versions of the game but even then most topics are often started stating what version of the game it's about by putting it in the topic title.

[philly_flyer10]

Please, every game has bugs in it, if you think theres a game on the planet that is released bug free you're crazy. Its the nature of the games industry that these things happen, i have a friend who works for rockstar games and the pressure he is put under during the development process is insane.

Thats the whole point, by skipping a year you remove the pressure to get a game out in 9 months, they have double the time to get a game out in August. Then they will have 12 months to get the next game out instead of the 9 they usually have because 3 months are spent fixing the mess that is the current game.

[Bradley21]

Thats the whole point, by skipping a year you remove the pressure to get a game out in 9 months, they have double the time to get a game out in August. Then they will have 12 months to get the next game out instead of the 9 they usually have because 3 months are spent fixing the mess that is the current game.

See post #152.

[Lem]

I think there are many worse companies, but I still remember the violent conduct issues in 07, which it took only a matter of minutes to notice and should never have got through testing. For me something just isn't quite right and it feels very rushed.

They put the price up the year after that and the release date seemed to be getting later and later each year which seemed to confirm to me they were struggling. If they put a solid game together and relased it early september I'd be much more interested as it's so convenient to run as a background app while I get on with other things.

[Ackter]

It probably didn't get through Testing.

It might have got through Production, though.

[stinger061]

It's a flawed argument. Without a game every year SI wont make enough money to keep producing more games. Even with a 2 year release cycle there would still be bugs as a game of this depth is just to massive not to have it's problems regardless of how long they have to work on it. SI aren't perfect but they are one of the most involved developers in the community surrounding the game and do everything they can to solve issues people are having.

So many posters give off the vibe that they think SI is just trying to screw them over. Do you really think SI want to make a game with bugs in it? They do all they can to produce top class games every year and I for one believe they deliver. Every year there are minor bugs and I can say I've never come across an 'game breaking' issues people seem to claim. Even the biggest of bugs over the years have had ways of getting around them.

[Lem]

It probably didn't get through Testing.

It might have got through Production, though.

If it was found in testing then surely it would have been fixed before release? Unless the paying public are the testers. -shrugs-

[themadsheep2001]

If it was found in testing then surely it would have been fixed before release? Unless the paying public are the testers. -shrugs-

finding it and having time/being able to fix it are two different things

[pigfacemonkeyman]

finding it and having time/being able to fix it are two different things

Yes they are, but not an excuse.

[Guest]

Stop QQuing.. you pay 30 punds every year to play the best football manager game there is.. and you whine about it? give me a break.

[themadsheep2001]

Yes they are, but not an excuse.

never said it was, but if they cant fix it in time, they cant fix in time. Pretty simple

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Stop QQuing.. you pay 30 punds every year to play the best football manager game there is.. and you whine about it? give me a break.

My pleasure, take it whenever you like.

[Quacky]

Its a business closely tied to (another business) of football that conveniently occurs annually and hence changes annually and leads to annual excitement over the new season which handily helps to drive sales of a game such as this.

It would be pretty daft of them not go along with this, they do after all have bills to pay and I'm sure if you worked out your price per hour of play (easy if you have steam version) you'll find its really cheap compared to almost any other mostly single player game and certainly other activities like getting drunk

[martin1988]

What makes you think SI will go bancrupt if they release versions say every two years with season packs in between? First, I suppose the sequels will sell better than they do now since they are bigger, better and properly tested. Second, many will buy the seasonal updates.

Also, many other companies don´t release new games every year and manage to survive. Would you expect Creative Assembly to release a new Total War game every year? We expect sequels to be a few years apart to take full advantage of proper development time, testing and better technology. Why should football management simulations be any exception?

If you want new season packs you would have to get rid of the editor, as someone would just update the transfers and release it for free, like people do right now. SI would make no money whatsoever.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

never said it was, but if they cant fix it in time, they cant fix in time. Pretty simple

There's that word 'Time' again, it is held up as an excuse, like it's OK to release a product, that is known to be faulty, because this is it's intended release date. It is only proof that the game isn't ready.

[Almondo]

I've just skimmed through the thread so forgive me if this has already been said but on the bugs issue a release every two years wouldn't get rid of the bugs at all. If you want evidence of this well the last version of Championship Manager had that 2 year gap and was the buggiest piece of crap I've ever had installed on a computer (and yes I'm including Fallout: New Vegas in that). The problem is that you can all whine and say that they can take the hit etc but Si have a contract with SEGA that says a new version of FM is to be released each year and that isn't going to change at all.

[themadsheep2001]

There's that word 'Time' again, it is held up as an excuse, like it's OK to release a product, that is known to be faulty, because this is it's intended release date. It is only proof that the game isn't ready.

It's hardly faulty, and where did i say it was an excuse? I simply made a statement. Either way sales go up, most people are happy (though i take this from the sales as opposed to anything else, so its a subjective standard), the game keeps improving and they aren't going to change in the near future. If you feel you are being "milked", don't buy it.

[Cougar2010]

There's that word 'Time' again, it is held up as an excuse, like it's OK to release a product, that is known to be faulty, because this is it's intended release date. It is only proof that the game isn't ready.

Christ we would all like to live in a perfect world but we don't.

All industries provide goods and services that aren't perfect, my car got recalled for a "bug" a couple of weeks ago and it got "patched". In the games industry if we waited for a "perfect" piece of software nothing would ever get released.

[themadsheep2001]

I've just skimmed through the thread so forgive me if this has already been said but on the bugs issue a release every two years wouldn't get rid of the bugs at all. If you want evidence of this well the last version of Championship Manager had that 2 year gap and was the buggiest piece of crap I've ever had installed on a computer (and yes I'm including Fallout: New Vegas in that). The problem is that you can all whine and say that they can take the hit etc but Si have a contract with SEGA that says a new version of FM is to be released each year and that isn't going to change at all.

That CM was dire, and thats putting it kindly. Buggier than a Mississippi swamp...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It's hardly faulty, and where did i say it was an excuse? I simply made a statement. Either way sales go up, most people are happy, the game keeps improving and they aren't going to change in the near future. If you feel you are being "milked", don't buy it.

1 Released with bugs, faulty.

2 I didn't say, you said it was an excuse.

3 'Milked' was used in the OP, and I thought he over-egged it somewhat.

4 I didn't buy FM11, I didn't like certain features and decided against it.

I love most of FM10 and look forward to loving the next version I deem fit to buy. I will not refrain from posting my opinions about aspects of the game I think aren't good enough just to appease the sensibilities of people who may take offence on behalf of someone else!

[tom_numbers]

I know that a lot of this has already been said (I half-skimmed some of page 2), but there seems to be a common misconception prevailing...

If FM was released only every 2 or 3 years, they would add more new features. They would not spend 3 years putting in 800 new features and testing them to perfection, because it would just slow progress too much. Instead, you would suddenly have 2,400 new features unveiled on the unsuspecting users, none of which have been mass-tested, and they would undoubtedly confuse the users - it's like buying an entirely original game every time.

Plus, there would be no income during those two/three years of development (as already stated, free updates are available), while I sincerely doubt that the incremental release would have the necessary double/treble sales figures. Hence, you would need to reduce the number of people working on the game to cut costs. Plus, where do you stand with licencing? I'd imagine it's a damn sight harder to secure rights if you're only will to pay in occasional years?

[martvez]

Plus, there would be no income during those two/three years of development (as already stated, free updates are available), while I sincerely doubt that the incremental release would have the necessary double/treble sales figures. Hence, you would need to reduce the number of people working on the game to cut costs. Plus, where do you stand with licencing? I'd imagine it's a damn sight harder to secure rights if you're only will to pay in occasional years?

!!! Let's not forget that FM is very cheap game and i don't see how 30 - 60 bucks per year could be called milking. I have spent twice that amount for a night out.

[themadsheep2001]

1 Released with bugs, faulty.

2 I didn't say, you said it was an excuse.

3 'Milked' was used in the OP, and I thought he over-egged it somewhat.

4 I didn't buy FM11, I didn't like certain features and decided against it.

I love most of FM10 and look forward to loving the next version I deem fit to buy. I will not refrain from posting my opinions about aspects of the game I think aren't good enough just to appease the sensibilities of people who may take offence on behalf of someone else!

Who said anyone was taking offence, you can post your opinion, and i can post mine. Pretty much every game some form of bug, what matters is how bad they are. FM11 had its issues, but its better than previous incarnations, and a better standard than many games out there. As had been said before its questionable as to whether and extra year will make the bugs any less apparent, and in any case they are not going to change in the near future. We can always and will ask for improvements, but lets keep some perspective

[SCIAG]

isnt there a total redo (looks wise) every 4 releases ? when was the last time the look of it changed ? is it due for a redo (the look) ?

I'm not sure about that, but it got a big change for FM10.

If you look at the screenshots/videos for FM12, you'll see that it doesn't appear to be especially different to FM10 on the screens released so far.

[Danielos]

Looking at the feature list for FM12 it seems every even year is mostly about making small, evolutionary changes while the more major news come the odd years. So you get basically a new sequel every two years anyway...

[Keyzer Soze]

Looking at the feature list for FM12 it seems every even year is mostly about making small, evolutionary changes while the more major news come the odd years. So you get basically a new sequel every two years anyway...

How can you say that when only 5 new features, from 800, had been anounce?

[Danielos]

How can you say that when only 5 new features, from 800, had been anounce?

True, but wasn´t it the same with FM06, FM08 and FM10?

[milnerpoint]

i would say being able to add any nation at any time is a pretty major change considering the way the game has worked for the past 15 years.

[Bradley21]

The play anywhere feature is a massive revolution, to pass it off as a small addition is ridiculous.

[Keyzer Soze]

True, but wasn´t it the same with FM06, FM08 and FM10?

Actually, in FM2009 you got the introducing of 3D match engine! Odd year... and a pretty major feature! Dont you agree?

[Danielos]

Actually, in FM2009 you got the introducing of 3D match engine! Odd year... and a pretty major feature! Dont you agree?

That was exactly my point! Odd year = major new features, Even year = minor new features

[Keyzer Soze]

That was exactly my point! Odd year = major new features, Even year = minor new features

Right, bad example. I mix up my odd's and evens! :o

You know, sometimes the little features are the one that gives more fun to some people. I remember in FM2010 (even year) the feature about the nets moving with the ball (in FM2009 the nets look more like some wood boards), to me was such a joy to see, that i start viewing the games in 3D.

So, that feature... for me... it was a big feature. for you, and perhaps many people, its just a small feature. It's all very subjective. I dont think we should separate all the new feature in big and small. I believe that the whole that makes the evolution of the game. I find very narrow to considerer something like: FM2009-> 3D feature game, FM2010-> zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz, FM2011-> agents feature game, etc etc

in all those games, in every year... hundreds of new features were implemented, allowing that FM2010 is completely diferent then FM2009, FM2011 completely diferent from FM2010.

But thats my opinion, and for this reason i buy the game every year: i can find in every new edition reasons (features) to buy the game.

If you dont find... then buying the game every 2 years (or 3 years) its perhaps the better choice.

[r0x0r]

What is an expansion price, compared to a full game price?

I paid more for WoW: Cataclysm than I did for FM11. Or the same amount, worst ways. And that's an expansion pack.

The difference between how CM did it and FM does it is basically semantics. CM4 and CM03/04 cost the same price in a shop. The only difference was that CM2, 3 and 4, as opposed to the xx/yy's in between, had an all new look, and major behind the scenes overhauls. FM is now modular enough that this no longer needs to happen, a new look can be thrown out as a skin, and there's really no need to rip out the bulk of the engine and start again, as each individual module can be remade and thrown in as the years go by.

[The Welsh Lad]

I don't know if it has been said but after reading the first post I felt compeled to go straight to replying.

One word FIFA!!!!!!!!!!!

You pay the same price every year for what slightly better graphics and new player additions. Oh, and this year Rooneys new hair line

[Smurf]

To the OP - you can just wait and buy the game in February when a patch is realeased, if it bothers you that much.

I'd say to play the demo first and see if you enjoy the new features. If you don't, I'm sure there will be a database update by someone for FM11.

Certainly no reason for them to stop releasing the game every year.

I think you have the opinion that they make the new features the year before they are implemented into the game, and are rushed in.

I don't think that's the case. I reckon work started on the Agents after FM09, and still not in FM10 but released in FM11, for example.

I'm sure a lot of years, work, dedication, long hours, lost boy-/girlfriends, pastries, coffee, stress, screaming matches, love, hate, friendships and other things have all been involved in making the new feature.

And it's not done in 9 months, I'm sure other things have been made in 9 months by the FM crew. But certainly, I don't think any new features are added willy nilly.

[Only One Sean Dyche]

I would be dissappointed if SI stopped doing it every year. I think A game of football manager has for me about 9 months of playability before I start to need a new version. The new features although the game is quite similar still the new changes make enough difference for me to want to play it all over again. I think i'd have 2 years off playing fm if it was done in 3 year stints. All games do it, its not milking it, its refreshing it and making it exciting again.

[Wiggz]

OK, throwing my hat into the ring on this one as I created a similar thread last year.

I have no issue with annual games, if the improvements warrant it. The fact is, getting into bed with SEGA has meant a push to be more profitable and more frequent with releases regardless of performance increase.

It's a very modern and business-like approach but it's certainly not in keeping with the aesthetic that people back in the CM days fell in love with.

I have always maintained that releases of ANY software should be point/version release driven rather than deadline driven. Developers have been ignored more on this front and forced to deliver to a deadline rather than a qualitative approach.

In short, FM2012 - I won't be buying it, but might ask for it as a gift....the fact is the areas of improvement, whilst vast, are of such a granular level to not impact the majority of game players, which sadly, doesn't reflect the hardcore gamers anymore.

I just wish people were less greedy and focused on quick wins now (even though not in the past) and more focused on quality.

[Wiggz]

To the OP - you can just wait and buy the game in February when a patch is realeased, if it bothers you that much.

I'd say to play the demo first and see if you enjoy the new features. If you don't, I'm sure there will be a database update by someone for FM11.

Certainly no reason for them to stop releasing the game every year.

I think you have the opinion that they make the new features the year before they are implemented into the game, and are rushed in.

I don't think that's the case. I reckon work started on the Agents after FM09, and still not in FM10 but released in FM11, for example.

I'm sure a lot of years, work, dedication, long hours, lost boy-/girlfriends, pastries, coffee, stress, screaming matches, love, hate, friendships and other things have all been involved in making the new feature.

And it's not done in 9 months, I'm sure other things have been made in 9 months by the FM crew. But certainly, I don't think any new features are added willy nilly.

I agree with your sentiments but that only lends more credence to the OP's debate relating to annual greed. The fact is, if they sat and brainstormed improvements....and they weren't ready in time for "FM2010", then why, if the other improvements didn't merit it (which they might or might not - up for debate) did they not skip it and make sure they nailed it for FM2011?

There is only one answer to that....and unfortunately it's SEGA & Greed

[Smurf]

How do you know any of that to be true? That is just what you think.

The business model of any business is to make a profit.

I guarantee you that new features you see in the game are not done in 9 month periods, but rather worked on for several versions and implemented when ready.

[Smurf]

I agree with your sentiments but that only lends more credence to the OP's debate relating to annual greed. The fact is, if they sat and brainstormed improvements....and they weren't ready in time for "FM2010", then why, if the other improvements didn't merit it (which they might or might not - up for debate) did they not skip it and make sure they nailed it for FM2011?

There is only one answer to that....and unfortunately it's SEGA & Greed

Because they thought they nailed it for the version they released it in. Or at least brought it as far as they could. And without user feedback they would just be guessing on ways to improve it.

I don't agree with this "Sega & Greed" I think that's a load of nonsense.

Sega have far many more games and the profits from FM are probably only a very small fraction of what they make globally.

[milnerpoint]

I have no issue with annual games, if the improvements warrant it. The fact is, getting into bed with SEGA has meant a push to be more profitable and more frequent with releases regardless of performance increase.

It's a very modern and business-like approach but it's certainly not in keeping with the aesthetic that people back in the CM days fell in love with.

People fell in love with the game surely. not the strategy used when deciding when to release the game?

[Wiggz]

Because they thought they nailed it for the version they released it in. Or at least brought it as far as they could. And without user feedback they would just be guessing on ways to improve it.

I don't agree with this "Sega & Greed" I think that's a load of nonsense.

Sega have far many more games and the profits from FM are probably only a very small fraction of what they make globally.

As far as they could.....in the time they were given?. Whether SEGA are being greedy or not is moot for that particular debate.....the fact remains they are releasing to a deadline rather than a qualitative based deadline instead. The problem is they are not alone and in order to compete in the market they have to release similarly....when in Rome, and all that eh? I'm not blaming them entirely...but somebody needs to take a stand, and I can't see them doing it with cash being flashed in front of their faces.

People fell in love with the game surely. not the strategy used when deciding when to release the game?

Absolutely...the game was made for fans by fans effectively. When new big updates were wheeled out, I, and many like me, stood there in awe of the new features. As I've said on numerous threads...there comes a time when you can't do much with a product you've continuously tweaked for years, apart from a bit of window dressing and a bit of bug tracking. So do tell me why releases are still coming in the same timeframe as they were when FM was first released even though the increase in performance/quality has a downwards trend year on year (not overall obviously). As stated above..I don't blame them as they need to compete...doesn't mean I like it.

To support my argument (or at least one side of it) - TV Show cancellations show that improvement, story and quality reach a plateau which is directly comparable to the gaming industry. (see Duke Nukem Forever for an example) - the issue is the gaming industry has a slightly skewed trend of purchasing in the market...one day it will pop.

[Ackter]

Sega don't pull SI's strings, the most they can do is nudge them a bit. You'll be surprised to hear this, but Sega does things SI's way, not vice versa. They know how important SI are to them.