Stop milking the FM-franchise with new versions every year!!

[Ackter]

You'll earn very little - the SI fan base wouldn't stand for that.

[stevvy]

I reckon the way to go in the future is a new released game every few years, with paid-for addons between releases that you can buy with special "FM bucks" that you have to pay real money for. With FM bucks you can pay for updates to specific leagues, or every single league for a special price, pay for new widgets in the match engine, and new options in player negotiations. Imagine how much money they'll earn.

Actually, that's what FMO should have been.

You're kidding right? You honestly think people should pay for new options in player negotiations, new widgets in the match engine etc? With all due respect, that's nothing short of complete lunacy.

[Smurf]

That idea by MSCCG just made me sick to the pit of my stomach. If "FM Bucks" were introduced to the game I'd never play it again.

We've gone from "Stop milking the game" to "Milk it some more"?

Nobody is getting milked here, pull the udder one guys!

We've established already that there are twice as many fixes/updates to FM12 than there was to FM11. There's over 800 fixes/updates/new features in FM12. Why should they wait until FM13 to unleash them ALL along with another 800? That's just crazy. Think of the amount of problems and bugs that would cause? There's already enough in a yearly update.

The idea that we'll have a perfect game if we wait 2 years is stupid. If anything the game would have more flaws. It's an ongoing project. It always will be.

I'm thankful for the yearly updates. And at £25 yes I'll take that.

You will not see me buying "FM Bucks".

[Kanukki]

I'm firmly in the "if you don't want a new version every year, no one is forcing you to buy it" opinion, but was tickled by Miles' definition of sports games in his Huffington Post blog:

Sports games - annual iterations of games where little changes apart from the graphics and, occasionally, a new bit of gameplay that gamers rush out and buy due to them having the latest data set.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/miles-jacobson/video-games-an-introducti_b_952489.html

[Ackter]

And you'd be daft if you genuinely think that's what FM is.

[mutmekep]

So basically what you want is an auto-win button? I'd suggest pretty much stop playing any game that ever comes out, except maybe CM2010.

I don't think my post deserves this kind of reply , i clearly stated that i don't mind losing fair and square against teams that play better but i do mind when my superiority does not guarantee victory . This is what games are about and even those with a luck factor do not push it as much as FM ; playing best and fail to get anything out of it is not fun but frustrating and people do not play games to get frustrated .

[Ackter]

That is not how football works, so why should FM work in that way?

[milnerpoint]

Nobody is getting milked here, pull the udder one guys!

i couldnt sit back and not quote that, genius

[Smurf]

I don't think my post deserves this kind of reply , i clearly stated that i don't mind losing fair and square against teams that play better but i do mind when my superiority does not guarantee victory . This is what games are about and even those with a luck factor do not push it as much as FM ; playing best and fail to get anything out of it is not fun but frustrating and people do not play games to get frustrated .

Real Madrid v Mallorca last season.

Superior team. Mallorca held them to draw.

I remember because I had a 15 match accumulator on and I watched this game as it was the last one on my betting slip. I nearly got sick when I saw how awful Real Madrid played that day and I didn't get my winnings either, in an otherwise guaranteed win for Real.

Games don't always go to plan. Complacency comes into it. Desire of the minnow team. And loads of other factors.

[Ackter]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/8329227.stm

Surely this as good an example as it gets?

[shirajzl]

I'm sorry, but why are you making such a stupid arguement? Millions of people play strategy games, even up to the point where Starcraft (11 million sales for the original) is a professional comeditive activity in Korea. And if you look at the sales of Civs 3 and 4 they sold 3 million for 4 and 2 for 3. These numbers are doing very well compared to Football Manager. You cannot say that strategy games are niche products unless you ignore the facts.

I know that strategies are widely popular, but my point is that football is still followed by more people than strategy games (in a manner of speaking)...and those who follow football are very likely to peak at FM.

[milnerpoint]

I don't think my post deserves this kind of reply , i clearly stated that i don't mind losing fair and square against teams that play better but i do mind when my superiority does not guarantee victory . This is what games are about and even those with a luck factor do not push it as much as FM ; playing best and fail to get anything out of it is not fun but frustrating and people do not play games to get frustrated .

Surely you want a challenge from the game your playing?

[FrazT]

I don't know many circumstances in sport when being superior guarantees victory

[mutmekep]

Real Madrid v Mallorca last season.

Superior team. Mallorca held them to draw.

I remember because I had a 15 match accumulator on and I watched this game as it was the last one on my betting slip. I nearly got sick when I saw how awful Real Madrid played that day and I didn't get my winnings either, in an otherwise guaranteed win for Real.

Games don't always go to plan. Complacency comes into it. Desire of the minnow team. And loads of other factors.

You are still don't get it , maybe my English is not very good ... my whole point is that too much realism can make or break a game in the case of FM and always in my opinion it breaks it . I am a football fan and a season ticket owner so i know that everything can happen IRL but FM is not real life its a game . If you take FM value of realism to say an RPG your character would have one or more limbs permanently paralysed after a hit or suffer severe mental damage , it doesn't happen because it isn't fun.

Surely you want a challenge from the game your playing?

What do you mean a challenge , like being far superior and fail to win because some sliders are one tick too low or well it was bad luck ? this is not anything close to challenge it is pure annoyance.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Nobody is getting milked here, pull the udder one guys!

i couldnt sit back and not quote that, genius

Here, my good sirs, are you coats.

[milnerpoint]

What do you mean a challenge , like being far superior and fail to win because some sliders are one tick too low or well it was bad luck ? this is not anything close to challenge it is pure annoyance.

your only superior if your players AND tactics are spot on, anyway, it sounds like FM is not and will never be the game for you, its not everyone's cup of tea, maybe the Ipad version would be more what your looking for?

[Brian Shanahan]

I don't think my post deserves this kind of reply ,

So you don't want the truth? Fine then I won't give it to you.

I know that strategies are widely popular, but my point is that football is still followed by more people than strategy games (in a manner of speaking)...and those who follow football are very likely to peak at FM.

And you are stilll either not understanding or ignoring my point, which has nothing to do with popularity (of which your arguement is still very dubious at best and erroneous at it's most likely) and everything to do with a company's relation to it's customer base. If, as you suggest, FM starts thinking of it's customers as a pack of drooling brain-dead idiots, then it will go the way of many top franchises and die an ignominious death.

[Scab]

What do you mean a challenge , like being far superior and fail to win because some sliders are one tick too low or well it was bad luck ? this is not anything close to challenge it is pure annoyance.

My best suggestion to you would probably be to stop messing with the sliders, switch over to the new tactics creator, and use shouts to alter your approach in-game. One tick here or there does not lose you any games, but you might as well eliminate it from the equation to avoid frustration with that system. Watch the matches on extended highlights and you should be able to use common footballing knowledge (rather than slider knowledge) to analyze what's happening and make adjustments via shouts (rather than sliders) to minimize threats and execute your own game plan. There's really no need to go as in-depth into minute tactical tweaks as some seem to think to be tactically successful.

The challenge is that you're facing a team that have some sort of plan for how to beat you - neutralize it or outscore them with your own.

[shirajzl]

And you are stilll either not understanding or ignoring my point, which has nothing to do with popularity (of which your arguement is still very dubious at best and erroneous at it's most likely) and everything to do with a company's relation to it's customer base. If, as you suggest, FM starts thinking of it's customers as a pack of drooling brain-dead idiots, then it will go the way of many top franchises and die an ignominious death.

Alright, as I suspected, you're incapable of discussing without a condescending tone. So, yeah, you're absolutely right about everything. Let's move on.

My best suggestion to you would probably be to stop messing with the sliders, switch over to the new tactics creator, and use shouts to alter your approach in-game. One tick here or there does not lose you any games, but you might as well eliminate it from the equation to avoid frustration with that system. Watch the matches on extended highlights and you should be able to use common footballing knowledge (rather than slider knowledge) to analyze what's happening and make adjustments via shouts (rather than sliders) to minimize threats and execute your own game plan. There's really no need to go as in-depth into minute tactical tweaks as some seem to think to be tactically successful.

The challenge is that you're facing a team that have some sort of plan for how to beat you - neutralize it or outscore them with your own.

That's good advice. However, many old(er) players feel they can't exploit the ME with TC as well as with sliders, which is true. By exploit I mean overachieve with just about anyone...Getting used to the idea of using real football terms and achieve success without raping the ME is difficult for some.

[mutmekep]

My best suggestion to you would probably be to stop messing with the sliders, switch over to the new tactics creator, and use shouts to alter your approach in-game. One tick here or there does not lose you any games, but you might as well eliminate it from the equation to avoid frustration with that system. Watch the matches on extended highlights and you should be able to use common footballing knowledge (rather than slider knowledge) to analyze what's happening and make adjustments via shouts (rather than sliders) to minimize threats and execute your own game plan. There's really no need to go as in-depth into minute tactical tweaks as some seem to think to be tactically successful.

The challenge is that you're facing a team that have some sort of plan for how to beat you - neutralize it or outscore them with your own.

The problem is not my tactics or football knowledge , it is that the game has some weird philosophy about what realism is , i am not stealing results playing full defence in the CL but even when i am the best team in the field all this "realism" is against me .

The teams don't have any plan , they are using premade highly optimized tactics so you will see Farul executing technical off side perfectly and the manager of Chornomorets applying the correct formation against you . My concern is that when i outclass an opponent and i mean really outclass them they still have a chance to steal a result when they shouldn't . In short the game is unfair .

My screenshot is from 07 , i tried hard to like 10 but it is slower than death , it requires ~5.000 more clicks per season and if i had the time to read so much information i would spent it to get a PhD in astrophysics.

[Ackter]

Just like real football.

[Scab]

The problem is not my tactics or football knowledge , it is that the game has some weird philosophy about what realism is , i am not stealing results playing full defence in the CL but even when i am the best team in the field all this "realism" is against me .

The teams don't have any plan , they are using premade highly optimized tactics so you will see Farul executing technical off side perfectly and the manager of Chornomorets applying the correct formation against you . My concern is that when i outclass an opponent and i mean really outclass them they still have a chance to steal a result when they shouldn't . In short the game is unfair .

My screenshot is from 07 , i tried hard to like 10 but it is slower than death , it requires ~5.000 more clicks per season and if i had the time to read so much information i would spent it to get a PhD in astrophysics.

Well, football is a game of chance. Everything we do we do to shift the odds in our favor, whether that be fielding better players or scouting the opposition or what have you, but at the end of the day it's 11 vs. 11 out on the pitch and unpredictable things can (and frequently do) happen. You need to take a longer-term perspective and the better teams should definitely be doing better, but there will be slip-ups along the way. That's just football (or most sports really), in real life and in-game.

Entire tactics are, as I'm sure you know, designed specifically under the assumption that your team will be outplayed and you'll be looking to soak up pressure and make the most of things like long, direct counters and set pieces. I don't quite understand why this shouldn't be viable in FM as well, which it wouldn't if whoever's playing better out on the pitch is guaranteed the win. It's not unfair either, because it goes for you and the AI alike; there's no AI/user bias in the ME and really, the AI isn't terribly clever. It picks an approach based on match odds and makes quite limited changes in-game.

I'm reluctant to pull out the "it's your tactics" card, but if you feel like you're never on the winning end of upsets, maybe that's a sensible question to ask. Or you're one of the biggest teams in the world who's ultimate success is really just living up to expectation, which is just not going to happen in every single game.

[Smurf]

This thread went way off topic.

[FMtillidie]

i prefer one every season, makes them collectable

[mutmekep]

Well, football is a game of chance. Everything we do we do to shift the odds in our favor, whether that be fielding better players or scouting the opposition or what have you, but at the end of the day it's 11 vs. 11 out on the pitch and unpredictable things can (and frequently do) happen. You need to take a longer-term perspective and the better teams should definitely be doing better, but there will be slip-ups along the way. That's just football (or most sports really), in real life and in-game.

Entire tactics are, as I'm sure you know, designed specifically under the assumption that your team will be outplayed and you'll be looking to soak up pressure and make the most of things like long, direct counters and set pieces. I don't quite understand why this shouldn't be viable in FM as well, which it wouldn't if whoever's playing better out on the pitch is guaranteed the win. It's not unfair either, because it goes for you and the AI alike; there's no AI/user bias in the ME and really, the AI isn't terribly clever. It picks an approach based on match odds and makes quite limited changes in-game.

I'm reluctant to pull out the "it's your tactics" card, but if you feel like you're never on the winning end of upsets, maybe that's a sensible question to ask. Or you're one of the biggest teams in the world who's ultimate success is really just living up to expectation, which is just not going to happen in every single game.

My problem is that the game forgets everything about realism when i pwn it, this thread is not about tactics although i can discuss them. The game tries to simulate real football but it fails in every single field and it is no longer fun . If you saw my first screenshot i am using FMM to hide my players from poachers , where is the fun of building up a squad out of young players & develop them only to lose them after 2 years? where is the fun when every now and then the closing comment is "they should have won this easily" ?

SI is keep on adding new stuff in every release which is okay but i think their philosophy is wrong , they are not making dwarf fortress or aurora and they are not looking on this corner of the market , i am not talking about making a game ridiculously easy but some consistency in results wouldn't harm anyone . Latest releases are very heavy info wise and slow and they also require big time dedication if you are up to achieve anything , football is not basketball or volleyball , it is a pretty simple game and you don't have to design complex systems to work things out ( unless you are Lobanovksy ).

To expand abit about tactical approach i am using this funny 4-2-3-1 formation mentioned in the other thread (2 DMCs and wingers) , now think about this : in 07 if you play attacking mentality you lose, if you play wide you lose badly but it you play narrow and normal or even defensive your crap team can become exceptional . As you see few clicks that do not make any sense (narrow wingers and attacking full backs...) can make or break a club ( you do need CL money to pay for contracts when you play in Poland or Bulgaria) and this philopsophy applies in all FM releases , people have to download tactics and training schedules... isn't something terribly wrong with that??

[Ackter]

Sounds just like real football to me.

[wwfan]

To expand abit about tactical approach i am using this funny 4-2-3-1 formation mentioned in the other thread (2 DMCs and wingers) , now think about this : in 07 if you play attacking mentality you lose, if you play wide you lose badly but it you play narrow and normal or even defensive your crap team can become exceptional . As you see few clicks that do not make any sense (narrow wingers and attacking full backs...) can make or break a club ( you do need CL money to pay for contracts when you play in Poland or Bulgaria) and this philopsophy applies in all FM releases , people have to download tactics and training schedules... isn't something terribly wrong with that??

Wow. I must have been dreaming when I did well without doing any of that

In all seriousness, it sounds to me like you are trying to exploit the ME, which has predictable outcomes. Every ME exploit tactic creates loads of chances, as that is the core stat people use when designing them. However, most of these chances aren't actually very good. Very often, they require top class forwards on the top of their game to convert them. However, because the CCC stat is very liberally applied, the user thinks they are much better chances than they actually are.

Because the user has employed a tactic that creates these chances through an exploit, the chances will be created even if the team is playing badly. However, the conversion rate will drop massively, either because the chance is slightly worse than it would be if the team is playing well, or because the forward is also playing badly and unable to convert.

As a result, people using such type of tactic think team talks make all the difference. If the forward is off his game (under pressure, complacent or just unhappy), the tactic will not create goals in any other way. Often, the frustration of not scoring despite creating lots of chances knocks onto the whole team and they concede on the break. If the user manager has no understanding of how to keep morale high after a loss, whole seasons can be ruined because of this.

Users who have tactical options that create and score goals even when their lead forward is playing badly won't stress so much about team talks, because as long as they have a reasonably well motivated and happy side, someone will do the job. They also worry far less about stats as they are aware that sometimes they'll have to play tight and try to win on the break, whereas other times they can open up. In contrast, the exploit tactic guy only looks at stats, which are always good, and cannot work out why he loses. There are no magic tactics in real world football. There are none in FM. It is all about decisions and logical strategy.

[xSEARLEYx]

My problem is that the game forgets everything about realism when i pwn it, this thread is not about tactics although i can discuss them. The game tries to simulate real football but it fails in every single field and it is no longer fun . If you saw my first screenshot i am using FMM to hide my players from poachers , where is the fun of building up a squad out of young players & develop them only to lose them after 2 years? where is the fun when every now and then the closing comment is "they should have won this easily" ?

SI is keep on adding new stuff in every release which is okay but i think their philosophy is wrong , they are not making dwarf fortress or aurora and they are not looking on this corner of the market , i am not talking about making a game ridiculously easy but some consistency in results wouldn't harm anyone . Latest releases are very heavy info wise and slow and they also require big time dedication if you are up to achieve anything , football is not basketball or volleyball , it is a pretty simple game and you don't have to design complex systems to work things out ( unless you are Lobanovksy ).

How is Football a simple game? Have you even played it or tried anything to do with football IRL? Looks to me that you haven't. You think Ferguson and Wenger found it 'pretty simple'? No, thought not. Maybe you should try a different sport as Football seems a bit too 'complex' for you.

And as for you moaning about losing to smaller teams when you're by far 'superior' that just proves how much you know about football in-game and IRL. Big teams lose to smaller teams hence Man Utd losing to Leeds 1-0. Stoke beating Liverpool yesterday. It happens in football, deal with it. This game is one of the most realistic football games you will find so don't start saying it 'fails in every single field' when trying to simulate real life football.

[Scab]

My problem is that the game forgets everything about realism when i pwn it, this thread is not about tactics although i can discuss them. The game tries to simulate real football but it fails in every single field and it is no longer fun . If you saw my first screenshot i am using FMM to hide my players from poachers , where is the fun of building up a squad out of young players & develop them only to lose them after 2 years? where is the fun when every now and then the closing comment is "they should have won this easily" ?

SI is keep on adding new stuff in every release which is okay but i think their philosophy is wrong , they are not making dwarf fortress or aurora and they are not looking on this corner of the market , i am not talking about making a game ridiculously easy but some consistency in results wouldn't harm anyone . Latest releases are very heavy info wise and slow and they also require big time dedication if you are up to achieve anything , football is not basketball or volleyball , it is a pretty simple game and you don't have to design complex systems to work things out ( unless you are Lobanovksy ).

To expand abit about tactical approach i am using this funny 4-2-3-1 formation mentioned in the other thread (2 DMCs and wingers) , now think about this : in 07 if you play attacking mentality you lose, if you play wide you lose badly but it you play narrow and normal or even defensive your crap team can become exceptional . As you see few clicks that do not make any sense (narrow wingers and attacking full backs...) can make or break a club ( you do need CL money to pay for contracts when you play in Poland or Bulgaria) and this philopsophy applies in all FM releases , people have to download tactics and training schedules... isn't something terribly wrong with that??

Let's just start by saying I'm not going to defend FM07 or many of the old incarnations because these were, as I'm in absolute agreement with you over, very flawed tactically and prone to severely unrealistic ME exploits popularized by downloadable tactics that people never changed. Some of these exploits could make practically any team overperform wildly and the tedious "find the exact slider positions that exploit the ME best" way of making tactics was pervasive. You fought against the game logic, not the opposition team.

Since FM10 the game is much better, although not perfect, about not tolerating this; there are much fewer and, more critically, much less effective ways of "gaming the system". You're really much better off thinking in proper footballing terms about how to make the most of the qualities in your team and how to address dangers in the opposition. This is in my opinion somewhat tainted by a very misleading CCC stat that seems to bring many back to the "let's just try everything until the stats look good" approach, but fundamentally you can now be very successful thanks to footballing familiarity rather than game mechanic familiarity via the new tactics system, shouts and OI. This is a huge change.

About your screenshot, I don't see anything really wrong about it as long as it's (1) not typical of most of your matches, and (2) using a sensible tactic. It being from FM07 I'm inclined to believe the 2nd point is false. If you think of football as a very simple game with not much need for preparation you're probably crippling yourself, but you definitely don't need a super complex tactical system in FM11. A flat 4-4-2 with settings appropriate for how you want your team to play, plus some in-game tweaks to adjust to changing match situations, can really be (and often is in my experience) enough to do well.

I'm not sure what to say about the poaching and "should have won this easily" points. I mean, if you're a smaller team you're going to have to fight a bit when bigger clubs come in for players who want to leave for them, and failing to win a game you're favorites for will obviously result in negative media reactions. This is all appropriate and while frustrating at the time, what's the fun in winning and growing big without the bitterness of losing and struggles of being a minnow? Maybe don't get too caught up in short-term events like this? It's who's best over however many games your league runs for that matters, after all.

[KyleGraham]

Is this a wind up?