My struggle with 4-2-3-1 tactics

[maxdavda2706]

Hi Folks,

How do you successfully play with 4-2-3-1 in football manager 2019? I have created multiple tactics but nothing seems to work.

Attached is my latest 4-2-3-1, I hope all of you tactical genuis can help me to fix it, with this tactics my team scores maximum 2 goals and do not create many chances, Most of my games are ending up with draw.

Most of the time, my team by passes DLP and BWM and directly pass ball to IF or wingbacks, My wingbacks will run with the ball and never crosses, Most of the time they end up loosing the ball with exposes the flanks.\

One more issue I have is with IF, No matter whom I play in IF, they seem to pass the ball directly to opposition. They try pass which is never on.  

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by maxdavda2706

[jwchriste]

One small change that works with most of my tactics is to NOT use the "Stay on Feet" instruction.  I find my team plays too soft.  I don't use the "Get Stuck In" instruction either, just don't choose either one.  Frees up my squad to make their own decisions, but they are not afraid to tackle and win the ball back when they need to.  Of course, I also now pick up several more cards (not many reds, mostly yellows) but I have an undisciplined lot.

[_mxrky]

First of all your out of possession tactics are too extreme. You use the maximum setting for all and are likely to be done by balls over the top ( although offside trap may help).

Why those instructions in transition? Why are you restricting the keeper with the way he can distribute the ball? Remove the take short kicks and allow your keeper to distribute to the full backs as well as the centre back.

You have a possession tactic with an extremely high line and then you have pass into space selected. In what space are they passing into? There is none. It's an unecessary instruction. You also have run at defence. For what reason? 

 

The 4231 is a very top heavy formation. It is much easier to set it up with 2 dms rather than cms, according to Cleon's 4231 thread. I would suggest you have a read: 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/414887-the-4231-explained/

[WojciechZed]

I am also playing as Dortmund. I see that you have your 'in transition' and 'out of possession' settings very attacking. High line of defence, urgent, lots of pressing. You also have high tempo for your 'in possession' setting.  This might tire your team out quickly unless you only use it for a short time. You also seem to have contradictions in your tactics. On the one hand you want your team to play it out of defence, but on the other hand to counter attack. That's much more direct, and contradicts playing it out of defence I think.

I tend to use positive mentality, but shorter or standard passing, sometimes slightly higher tempo or something normal or even lower in the 2nd half. No need for so many instructions other than that. It's a quality team, let the goalkeeper distribute how we wants, let them attack how they want, without giving them specific instructions.

On a side note, bit off topic, I see you are playing as a German team who are in the CL. Do you by chance use the 3D match engine? If so, could you let me know, here, or via DM, if you have an issue where the crowd is missing behind one of the goals during a home CL match.

[MrPompey]

I'm not sure a poacher works when you have a single striker. I would want a pacy strong forward who can shoot and head/jump in the style of Drogba / Kane / Shearer Lukaku

In  that formation i would play as it is is when at home and away the midfielders sitting deeper as DMC's. Additionally i would have the AML as a winger not an inside forward

I would also consider possession football. In either case if pushing for a goal I would sub the AMC and bring on a second striker, maybe your poacher

If you do play with your tactics I would allow around 10 matches, dont expect wonders after a single match

[maxdavda2706]

2 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

I'm not sure a poacher works when you have a single striker. I would want a pacy strong forward who can shoot and head/jump in the style of Drogba / Kane / Shearer Lukaku

In  that formation i would play as it is is when at home and away the midfielders sitting deeper as DMC's. Additionally i would have the AML as a winger not an inside forward

I would also consider possession football. In either case if pushing for a goal I would sub the AMC and bring on a second striker, maybe your poacher

If you do play with your tactics I would allow around 10 matches, dont expect wonders after a single match

Thank you  Do you mean I should play with two wingers and away from home 4-1-4-1? 

[MrPompey]

Its just my view and what works best is fitting the players you have to a formation that plays to their strengths. Home and away stick with your 4-2-3-1 but when away from home either pull your 2 MC's so they sit deeper as DMC's, if click and drag backwards. I can't recall there may be a 4-2-3-1 (2 DMCs) formation. In this formation you could set up as counter attack. You ass man will say you have a gap between midfield and attack but you can ignore him  

What i wouldnt do is it keep changing formations etc every 2 or 3 games

Ultimately if you have players of lower standard than what every other team in your league have the you will always struggle whatever your formation. Look to get on a not losing streak, then winning streaks

 

[wetfred]

Try bumping up your mentality to positive or attacking.

[herne79]

I'll move this over to the Tactical Help Forum .

[jc577]

Your selection of roles and duties look okay to me, but they’re at odds with the TIs you’ve selected as others have mentioned. I think you need to decide what style of play you want, as it seems you’re caught in two minds. 

Out of possession: 

Way, way too extreme! You’re pinning opponents back so much that there’s little space for your front 4 who are very advanced. To me, the success of your tactic relies on getting the ball to the W-A quickly so he can cross for the Poacher, but with the extreme press this is unlikely to happen. 

In possession: 

The use of ‘play out of defence’ and ‘shorter passing’ will slow your transitions down, allowing the opponent to get set and limit space for your front four. 

Solutions:

If you want a more possession-based style of play, i’d change some of the roles and duties to encourage more combinations and patience. If you prefer direct style, i’d:

Change your line of engagement to standard, change d-line to standard (or higher), remove ‘Play out of defence’, remove counter press etc.

 

[sporadicsmiles]

9 hours ago, maxdavda2706 said:

Most of the time, my team by passes DLP and BWM and directly pass ball to IF or wingbacks, My wingbacks will run with the ball and never crosses, Most of the time they end up loosing the ball with exposes the flanks.\

That is what run at defense will do. If you are looking for possession based tactics, you are more looking to use "dribble less" as this will encourage players to pass rather than run. Which means in principle you should give the ball away less.

In your tactic, what is the AMC actually supposed to be doing? He looks a little lost in this tactic, without an obvious job. What do you want him to be doing, ideally? Right now I imagine he is going to sit in midfield and not do very much.

[maxdavda2706]

17 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

That is what run at defense will do. If you are looking for possession based tactics, you are more looking to use "dribble less" as this will encourage players to pass rather than run. Which means in principle you should give the ball away less.

In your tactic, what is the AMC actually supposed to be doing? He looks a little lost in this tactic, without an obvious job. What do you want him to be doing, ideally? Right now I imagine he is going to sit in midfield and not do very much.

I wanted three men diamond in the middle, so basically my AM - DLP - BWM passes ball between them and when passes diagonals to wing back when opportunity arrives or through ball to W/IF/ST. Shall i change AM to AP?

[sergivela]

I just managed to set up a very effective 4-2-3-1 with Dortmund in my current game. My tactic is very similar to yours, so I think you're really close to having a good tactic.

In terms of TI, my advice would be to set the defensive line and the LoE to Higher instead of Much Higher. These are much better options if you want to use Hummels and Akanji. The former is too slow, and neither are agressive enough to chase/win the ball up high. It is even worse with Zagadou. 

Reus is working great for me as SS, with Witsel/Weigl as DLPde paired with a BBM. I don't see Reus as an AMsu. Also, I don't see Witsel as BWM. Much better as a CMde or DLPde given his excellent tactical skills. As a minor comment: make sure you sign a good replacement for Reus, since he'll miss half of the season due to injuries.

Alcacer and Belotti (I also signed him) are doing well as Poachers or as PFat in away games when you're not favorite

I use Guerreiro as FBat and he's doing great. On the right side, having a WBsu might be too offensive, leaving only two players (ie the CD) ready for the defensive transition. I use a FBde

I'm not an expert in tactics so stick to the advices of others if they contradict me. 

[Johnny Ace]

That's quite a sound set-up, the only thing I'd change would be the striker or the attacking-midfielder 

By default, they've both very static roles, I'd want one of them to have a bit of movement, maybe try adding Roam from Position to the AM's PIs or use a another striker that has some movement like Move into Channels 

Most of the TIs have been covered but I'd strip back a few. No need for Run at Defense when you have wide runners anyway & it's not a great instruction for keeping possession (ie the more runners you have the more likely they are to get tackled & lose the ball). I'd maybe drop the LOE a touch just to give your players a little leeway, they'll all be on their backsides playing like that for 90 minutes week in week out. Pass into Space isn't needed either, a) there will be no space in the final third b) it puts you at more risk of turning over possession. Maybe just set the instruction to one or two players, the AM for sure, if you've instructed him to be a little more mobile  

Edited September 5, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, maxdavda2706 said:

I wanted three men diamond in the middle, so basically my AM - DLP - BWM passes ball between them and when passes diagonals to wing back when opportunity arrives or through ball to W/IF/ST. Shall i change AM to AP?

Not if he is doing what you want him to do within your tactic. I would just look for a more dynamic role for him. In the 4231 the player who really has freedom in midfield is the AMC since you want relatively static players in the two central slots to offer defensive cover (this is less true if you play with two DMCs). Either I would want him roaming around dragging defenders with him and creating space for others, or I would want him to be running into space created by others. I would say he is a bit static in your setup, and it could be easy for him to get lost in midfield and not really influence the game.

[Experienced Defender]

18 hours ago, maxdavda2706 said:

I would say that the needlessly high level of aggressiveness both in defense and attack is the main cause of your tactical issues. In attack, it seems that you are trying to do too many things at the same time, and some of them are mutually incompatible at that. For example, you want your players to pass into space, but at the same time you are restricting that space by extreme pressing and maximum LOE. Passing into space makes sense in two different cases:

- when you play a rather counter-attacking football that looks to take advantage of space left behind aggressive opposition

- when you play a basically patient possession-oriented game, camping in the opposition half and around their area/box but want to encourage a bit more through balls so that your possession style wouldn't be too sterile in the final third

In both cases you need relatively fast players up front (and in the latter case also tactically intelligent - anticipation, decisions, vision...), but what you also need is to create the space where these passes will potentially be played into (which your tactic is not doing at the moment).

On the other hand, your setup of roles and duties does not look bad in general. The roles and duties for the front 4 are set up pretty well IMHO. What I would look to avoid in a system such as 4231 though are the roles such as BWM and attack-duty wing-back. The BWM can be risky in a top-heavy system without a DM due to his aggressive manner of defending, whereas WB on attack duty can leave his flank exposed - again due in part to the lack of direct protection of the back-line in the form of a DM (position). So I would opt for a standard CM on defend duty instead of BWM and standard FB on attack instead of WB on attack.

[maxdavda2706]

Thank you all  I made few changes based on your suggestion and things look better however it is not consistent, I won 3 and lost 2. Below is my latest tactics, I also instructed AM to roam from position so he will be more mobile. I am still learning

 

[Mickybricks14]

19 hours ago, WojciechZed said:

On a side note, bit off topic, I see you are playing as a German team who are in the CL. Do you by chance use the 3D match engine? If so, could you let me know, here, or via DM, if you have an issue where the crowd is missing behind one of the goals during a home CL match.

Not sure if you got an answer to this but I have a reason for it.  IRL Bundesliga teams are allowed to have terraced standing areas for fans. These aren't allowed in European competition so German clubs usually have something called rail seats which allow for standing area for league games but a seated area for European games. I believe Celtic have them as well.

When it comes to FM it's probably easier to code the match engine to say: this area is seats or this area is standing terrace, rather than say: in situation A this is standing terrace, in situation B this is seats.

Hope that explanation is clear and apologies for the off topic post

[Experienced Defender]

49 minutes ago, maxdavda2706 said:

In terms of defensive instructions, you have now sort of gone to the opposite extreme. Lower LOE makes sense when you want to play on counter-attacks, but I doubt that was your idea (especially as you don't even use the Counter TI in transition). Higher DL paired with hard tackling (a.k.a. get stuck in) and extreme pressing is potentially very risky - just imagine what can happen when a fast opposition forward manages to get into the space behind your defense beating the offside trap. For what you want to achieve, I would recommend the following instructions:

- higher DL

- standard LOE 

- prevent short GK distribution (you can also opt to use the split press instead of / or even together with Prevent short GKD)

- offside trap

And leave both pressing and tackling on default.

[maxdavda2706]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of defensive instructions, you have now sort of gone to the opposite extreme. Lower LOE makes sense when you want to play on counter-attacks, but I doubt that was your idea (especially as you don't even use the Counter TI in transition). Higher DL paired with hard tackling (a.k.a. get stuck in) and extreme pressing is potentially very risky - just imagine what can happen when a fast opposition forward manages to get into the space behind your defense beating the offside trap. For what you want to achieve, I would recommend the following instructions:

- higher DL

- standard LOE 

- prevent short GK distribution (you can also opt to use the split press instead of / or even together with Prevent short GKD)

- offside trap

And leave both pressing and tackling on default.

Thank you so much, I have tweaked it further as per your suggestion and now its much better.  I have also change tempo to lower which is working like charm however still not consistent, May be it is still new. 

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, maxdavda2706 said:

I have also change tempo to lower which is working like charm however still not consistent

Not sure that you need lower tempo when you already use short passing, play out of defence and work ball into box. Lower tempo could make sense if you played on attacking mentality, but under positive I think standard tempo should be quite okay. At least my experience is such. 

Btw, I see that you are still using extremely urgent pressing, which means your defensive vulnerability is still pretty high. 

[Johnny Ace]

How do you mean by inconsistent? How are you conceding?

[maxdavda2706]

4 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

How do you mean by inconsistent? How are you conceding?

Not much but my team does not score many goals even though having 20-25 shots in a match, For example see below screenshot. I watch full highlights and we dominate from start to end yet we end up drawing most of the match. Also as per stats there are not many clear cut chances created by team.

 

[Johnny Ace]

7 hours ago, maxdavda2706 said:

Not much but my team does not score many goals even though having 20-25 shots in a match, For example see below screenshot. I watch full highlights and we dominate from start to end yet we end up drawing most of the match. Also as per stats there are not many clear cut chances created by team.

Okay, 0-0 at home to RB Leipzig isn't the end of the world but you do look a little blunt in attack, 18 shots with only 5 on target is a worry. Were a lot of the shots long shots? Free-kicks? In attacking build up did you have sufficient players in the box & in support? Were you camped outside their penalty box? It's hard to tell from a limited stat screen

I'm a little uneasy with the BBM, the idea of the two in CM in a 4-2-3-1 is they remain solid, they recycle, they support the front 4, in my experience, a BBM (a fantastic role) will get himself onto the edge of the box & look to break in. In that formation I see that job as the AM's

The way I see play building up the PF(A) will be in the box, the W(A) will be in the box on the right hand side, the IF(S) will be getting into the box over on the left, with the AM(S) & BBM(S) both looking to get into the box with the Wing-Backs high & wide. The only 3 players you'll have not looking to get onto the end of things will be the CBs & CM(D)

I'd say use a CM(S) instead of the BBM , maybe with an added Hold Position instruction if he's still getting to far forward but the problem may be something totally different  

[WojciechZed]

17 hours ago, Mickybricks14 said:

Not sure if you got an answer to this but I have a reason for it.  IRL Bundesliga teams are allowed to have terraced standing areas for fans. These aren't allowed in European competition so German clubs usually have something called rail seats which allow for standing area for league games but a seated area for European games. I believe Celtic have them as well.

When it comes to FM it's probably easier to code the match engine to say: this area is seats or this area is standing terrace, rather than say: in situation A this is standing terrace, in situation B this is seats.

Hope that explanation is clear and apologies for the off topic post

Yes a similar suggestion was made in the topic I started on this and it's looking like that might well be the reason, as I seem to have quite a bit less attendance for those CL home games, so it isn't that there is a glitch and it's recording the attendance wrong, as somebody from SI suggested originally.

Thanks for the explanation, it was very clear, and definitely something for SI, even though it might need some more coding work, to fix, as we can't just have one empty stand in the CL or EL when playing at home. So railed seats would be a good addition to FM. If you can have 2 different types of seats in FM, why not 3? Hopefully shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[summatsupeer]

Tactically I dont think wingbacks fit a possession style, i prefer IWB, FB or CWB roles on support or defend.  Why have patient possession style, then have a WB-At running at byline to put a cross into a packed box? 

W-At is similar, he wants to take risks compare to rest of the team except the WB-At and PF-At.  Whilst everyone else is being a bit patient to create a chance, the winger isn't and will be happy to put a cross in even if box is packed. 

Thats 2 of your 3 highest mentality players told to dribble and cross often, does that sound like a possession system? If it was a faster style that doesn't look to transition so safely then those roles+duties would fit better.

Player wise, does a patient possession style fit your players strengths? Off the top of my head i think there physical attributes are better than there intelligence which could be why they're not making many chances and a bit inconsistent. to get best from those type of players I think you want to transition and attack quicker before defences are back and organized. Unless I'm wrong about those players and they have great composure, decisions, off the ball etc.

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, maxdavda2706 said:

 

15 hours ago, maxdavda2706 said:

I watch full highlights and we dominate from start to end yet we end up drawing most of the match. Also as per stats there are not many clear cut chances created by team.

You are generally not likely to see many clear-cut chances when you are a top team that usually play against (very) defensive underdogs, so that's not much of an issue. Btw, the game (for some reason) sometimes (often?) does not count very good chances even as half-chances, let alone CCCs.

Apart from that, I think you are pretty close to creating a good tactic that should produce better results. Here are some ideas you may want to consider - but implement them gradually (one by one), not all at once:

1. add the "Be more expressive" instruction

2. try a trequartista in the AMC spot, but only if you have a player with the right attributes

3. remove the "Roll it out" and "Distribute to CBs" TIs and let the keeper decide (you are already playing out of defence, so there is no need to specifically tell the keeper where and how to distribute)

4. add the Counter TI in transition (you are playing in a top-heavy system and I assume you have some fast forwards, so why not take advantage of that?)

5. use the split block (it means telling your front 4 to close down more via their player instructions)

6. consider changing the RCM into a mezzala on support duty and RB into either an IWB on support or a standard FB on support

7. if you find that your left flank is a bit too exposed, change the LB from WB on attack to FB on attack or WB on support (both roles will naturally overlap the IF when an opportunity presents itself)

As I said, you may not need to make all these tweaks, so try them step by step.

Good luck 

[CARRERA]

On 06/09/2019 at 02:59, maxdavda2706 said:

Not much but my team does not score many goals even though having 20-25 shots in a match

remove shorter passing, add counter ti, make PF a Poacher. With shorter passing you will be very unlikely to ever score or create good chances from inside the box against a defensive side.

oh an btw, dont worry, your team will still be playing a short passing game just more direct towards the goal

Edited September 7, 2019 by CARRERA

[Johnny Ace]

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

2. try a trequartista in the AMC spot, but only if you have a player with the right attributes

 

Just a quick one on this point ED. I've often been tempted to try a Treq in the AMC position but I always thought it was a bad idea in a none counter tactic. How would you arrange the front 4 if you were to use the role? Change the striker to a Support duty or one of the wide men?

Edited September 7, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just a quick one on this point ED. I've often been tempted to try a Treq in the AMC position but I always thought it was a bad idea in a none counter tactic

You can use a TQ in the AMC spot in a 4231, regardless of your preferred playing style. But the problem is that there are not many players who can perform the role in a really good way. 

 

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

How would you arrange the front 4 if you were to use the role? Change the striker to a Support duty or one of the wide men?

No, I would not change the striker's duty to support. Even though TQ is on attack duty, it is a playmaker role, which means he does not behave as non-PM roles when on attack duty. TQ has complete freedom, both of creativity and movement, so he will look to support attacks wherever the play is focused at the moment (drop deeper, move wider, drive forward when needed). Therefore, my ideal setup of the front 4 with a TQ is exactly like the OP's, only TQ is there instead of the AM:

PO/PFat

IFsu           TQ           Wat

In FM18 I would have avoided having more than 2 attack duties among the front four in a 4231, but in FM19 a PM type of role as a third one on attack duty can work nicely (TQ in particular).

[Johnny Ace]

Interesting, I might try it out as a more offensive option. I've got this guy, Tobias "Foxy" Fox, he's more than capable of fulfilling the role, the only thing letting him down is his Finishing. I'll have to keep my eye on the Attack duty in the no. 10 position, ideally I want him tracking back but if I'm going for broke it won't matter much anyway  

 

Sorry for any derailment Max but I hope it's useful info  

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

 

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I've got this guy, Tobias "Foxy" Fox, he's more than capable of fulfilling the role, the only thing letting him down is his Finishing. I'll have to keep my eye on the Attack duty in the no. 10 position, ideally I want him tracking back but if I'm going for broke it won't matter much anyway

You absolutely can play this guy as a TQ. Don't know your other players and your tactic in general, but this guy clearly has what it takes to be a very good TQ. How good he will be will not depend solely on him though.

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

You absolutely can play this guy as a TQ. Don't know your other players and your tactic in general, but this guy clearly has what it takes to be a very good TQ. How good he will be will not depend solely on him though.

He's the sole reason I changed to a 4-2-3-1 a couple of seasons back, he destroyed me playing for Leverkusen. Don't worry, he has plenty of class playing around him  

[WojciechZed]

On 05/09/2019 at 17:15, Mickybricks14 said:

Not sure if you got an answer to this but I have a reason for it.  IRL Bundesliga teams are allowed to have terraced standing areas for fans. These aren't allowed in European competition so German clubs usually have something called rail seats which allow for standing area for league games but a seated area for European games. I believe Celtic have them as well.

When it comes to FM it's probably easier to code the match engine to say: this area is seats or this area is standing terrace, rather than say: in situation A this is standing terrace, in situation B this is seats.

Hope that explanation is clear and apologies for the off topic post

Ok a question to you, or anybody else that might be able to answer. Is this a rule for all European competitions, or just CL? Because my team have dropped into the EL and the 'no fans behind one goal problem' is gone. So this is either due to the 'no terraces' rule being a CL only rule, or it is some type of weird glitch in FM that only affects German clubs.

[afailed10]

Keep it simple. It's a top heavy formation and your players are good and talented so why not play with a bit more intensity? I'd try something like this:

Mentality: Attacking (or Positive if you're giving too much space)

In Possession: Low Crosses (fit your attackers better), Play from the back.

Transition: Counterpress, Counter, Distribute to Def.

Out of Possession: More Urgent, Higher Defensive line, Higher line of engagement (just one notch in all 3) and Use offside trap.

Roles:

GK :SK-S, SK-D or GK-D (depends on the keeper)

DR: FB-S or IWB-S

DCR: BPD-D (or CD-D if low composure/decisions/first touch)

DCL: BPD-D (or CD-D if low composure/decisions/first touch)

DL: CWB-s (If it's Guerreiro or another player with Off the ball/flair/vision)

MCR: CM-S (Shoot Less Often)

MCL: DLP-S

AMR: W-S (Get Further Forward)

AMC: SS-A

AML: IF-S 

CF: P-A (or PF-S, DLF-S, depending on the opposition, better to just watch the highlights)

 

Now this to be more effective you need to tweak it sometimes. Say, drop the IF and wingers to ML and MR stratas, for instance, when you feel the IF or Winger are dribbling way too soon and end up isolated, tweak them to WM so they dribble less.

Against stronger sides might be needed to reduce the risk of some roles, such as the CWB (and BPDs) into a WB or FB since they dribble less and you play it safer from the back.

When things aren't clicking you have to change things a bit. I like to bring a left footed player to the IF-S role and perhaps change it to a winger so he looks to play more direct and, if he has good vision and passing, will get many good balls for a fast striker to get on the channels.

There are more tweaks you can do but this is it on top of my head.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by afailed10

[BadAss88]

On 06/09/2019 at 19:11, Experienced Defender said:

 

You are generally not likely to see many clear-cut chances when you are a top team that usually play against (very) defensive underdogs, so that's not much of an issue. Btw, the game (for some reason) sometimes (often?) does not count very good chances even as half-chances, let alone CCCs.

Apart from that, I think you are pretty close to creating a good tactic that should produce better results. Here are some ideas you may want to consider - but implement them gradually (one by one), not all at once:

1. add the "Be more expressive" instruction

2. try a trequartista in the AMC spot, but only if you have a player with the right attributes

3. remove the "Roll it out" and "Distribute to CBs" TIs and let the keeper decide (you are already playing out of defence, so there is no need to specifically tell the keeper where and how to distribute)

4. add the Counter TI in transition (you are playing in a top-heavy system and I assume you have some fast forwards, so why not take advantage of that?)

5. use the split block (it means telling your front 4 to close down more via their player instructions)

6. consider changing the RCM into a mezzala on support duty and RB into either an IWB on support or a standard FB on support

7. if you find that your left flank is a bit too exposed, change the LB from WB on attack to FB on attack or WB on support (both roles will naturally overlap the IF when an opportunity presents itself)

As I said, you may not need to make all these tweaks, so try them step by step.

Good luck 

You can't tell a TQ to close down more..or do you say that to the mezzala than?

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

You can't tell a TQ to close down more..or do you say that to the mezzala than?

If you want to have 4 players closing down more, then the mezzala is the most logical choice to be that 4th guy (instead of the TQ). But bear in mind that in a 4231 it is more risky than in a 4123 (i.e. 4141dm wide) for example.

[tusina]

Hold position for AMC in a 4-2-3-1 seems to be something worth testing out. It stops them from dropping so deep in the defensive phase they're all but useless on the counter but they still press the opposing DM/holding midfielders. Roam from position seems to be the general wisdom for AMC, but the opposite has been a revelation for me, atleast with a slow AMC (Rogic, looking at you).

[LCFCEaves31]

It is interesting to read a lot of people on the forum have mentioned being too aggressive in the press, not allowing any space for your attackers to run into... I also used much higher line of engagement and much higher defensive line, to pin people in, but when you are also playing a possesion based tactic, this obviously doesnt make a lot of sense... what is the point in press press press, to then just pass the ball around and allow the opposition to get back into shape...

However, I would like to know what people recommened to use for possesion based tactics in terms of the press? Because surely as soon as you lose the ball, you try and win it back? Not retreat and win it deep in your own half (which surely suits counter attacking style more?). A possesion based team such as Barcelona press very high up the pitch do they not? And play a pretty high line I am sure... and they have been a possesion heavy/patient team. 

Is there ever a reason to use 'much higher' line of engagement? 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I would like to know what people recommened to use for possesion based tactics in terms of the press? Because surely as soon as you lose the ball, you try and win it back? Not retreat and win it deep in your own half (which surely suits counter attacking style more?). A possesion based team such as Barcelona press very high up the pitch do they not? And play a pretty high line I am sure... and they have been a possesion heavy/patient team. 

Is there ever a reason to use 'much higher' line of engagement? 

Your formation is also a factor to be considered, but the LOE should anyway be at least higher or even much higher. Counter-press is certainly an option when you want to play a possession-based style of football, but you need to be aware of its potential risks. Split-press is something I personally would always prefer over more (let alone extremely) urgent pressing on a team level, but top teams can afford to press with more urgency as an entire team. And of course - always keep in mind that the mentality automatically adjusts all other settings (either up or down).