ME loophole

[marris09]

Has the 3 striker loophole now been fixed?

[jere_d]

I don't think so. 

 

[gazza26]

whats the 3 striker loophole?

[marris09]

2 minutes ago, gazza26 said:

whats the 3 striker loophole?

Playing with a formation that has wingbacks and 3 strikers.match engine cant seem to handle a formation like that.literally so many prople using that formation.seen streamers take teams from the bottom of the football pyramid to the premier league in consecutive seasons with bang average players.so many people using it.my brother one of them,got a network save going but its litrally pointless,hes using this tactic and winning everything

[gazza26]

cheers, never heard of this before personally i like 4231 and fun of the game dont get why people need to exploit weakness in game surely cant enjoy it as much (unless your playing your brother online then get bragging rights lol)

[marris09]

12 minutes ago, gazza26 said:

cheers, never heard of this before personally i like 4231 and fun of the game dont get why people need to exploit weakness in game surely cant enjoy it as much (unless your playing your brother online then get bragging rights lol)

Im a fan of 4231 or 442 myself.for me it would take the fun out the game,we stopped playing the save,because i stood no chance,he now wants to carry the save on but refuses to go with another formation.lol so not happening.there was an exploit last year aswell but on fm17 it was playing a 5-2-3 with no strikers.ur 3 were positioned further back playing as "shadow strikers" lol

[jujigatame]

I think the fundamental problem is that defenders (particular CBs) are slow to react to long balls.  They backpedal for too long and then by the time they turn to run, the strikers have blown right by them.  I haven't tried a 3-striker formation but you see it a fair amount with 2 strikers as well.  A long ball gets pinged to one of them, by the time the defenders turn to sprint after it he's yards away from them, and then he squares to the other striker for a goal.  It's a common pattern in this ME.

[DiStru_]

Can someone post an example of that 4-3-3? What sort of roles are being used and how do you cope with such attacking approach as a weaker team? Surely bad sides would struggle down the flanks?

[DizzyNewHeights]

4 hours ago, marris09 said:

Has the 3 striker loophole now been fixed?

Shhhh

[eple]

17 minutes ago, DiStru_ said:

Can someone post an example of that 4-3-3? What sort of roles are being used and how do you cope with such attacking approach as a weaker team? Surely bad sides would struggle down the flanks?

It's not so much the 433, but variants of 343/523

 

 

 

As you can see with the set up strikers are doing crazy stuff. And this is not even top strikers in a top team. 

[91427]

57 minutes ago, eple said:

It's not so much the 433, but variants of 343/523

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

As you can see with the set up strikers are doing crazy stuff. And this is not even top strikers in a top team. 

Any formation that uses 3 strikers seems to be completely broken, even those that don't use 3 at the back. Quite depressing that a person can spend hour after hour working on f.e a 4-2-3-1 system but it will inevitably be outperformed by a 3 striker tactic made in no time at all. Goal after goal will come from the outside strikers receiving the ball in the channels and then crossing for the central striker to volley or half-volley home while it'll also somehow be remarkably defensively sound.

[Rashidi]

9 hours ago, jujigatame said:

I think the fundamental problem is that defenders (particular CBs) are slow to react to long balls.  They backpedal for too long and then by the time they turn to run, the strikers have blown right by them.  I haven't tried a 3-striker formation but you see it a fair amount with 2 strikers as well.  A long ball gets pinged to one of them, by the time the defenders turn to sprint after it he's yards away from them, and then he squares to the other striker for a goal.  It's a common pattern in this ME.

One candefend against a 523, I did an online head to head with someone else playing vs mode to test this out. The thing most people need to address is how to get your defenders to do their job without backpedalling. If you are a good team playing a 523, then its going to be fairly hard to defend against it. If you are poor team defending against it you need to make sure you are playing the right roles on the flanks with the right amount of individual closing down. 

Honestly if it's really broken then more people should use it, this would bring it even more attention and if sides can find the perfect mix of players and over perform all the time, then I am sure it will become an issue that SI will have to deal with.

[forameuss]

I found great success using a fairly basic 4-3-3 of my own making, switching to a 3-4-3 at times if I wanted to play wide midfielders instead of full-backs.  Was brilliant going forward, and could turn an opposition counter into a goal for me ludicrously quickly with the three forwards on fire.  It was, however, absolute dog toss at the back.  Games regularly ending 4-3 and the like.  The power going forward was well balanced with how dreadful we were at the other end.

As always though, if you distill it down to the base and have someone brute force it to the point of tedium, then you'll get out a tactic that people can download that can make the game cry uncle.  I'm not sure why people are so surprised - there's always one of these in every game, and probably always will be.   There was Diablo.  There was the near-post corner exploit.  There was the far-post corner exploit.  There was 4-1-2-3.  Now there's this one.  

[Rookie FM]

FM 2008 - Corner exploit

FM 2010 - 4-1-2-3  where You score loads of Goals !

FM 2012 - Pacey Striker will win you Most matches!

FM 2018 - Used 3 Strikers score and you will win Most Matches

I am not sure about FM 2009(Very Hard to win away from Home for me!), FM 2013 to 2017 thought.

 

 

[onionbag]

22 hours ago, 91427 said:

Quite depressing that a person can spend hour after hour working on f.e a 4-2-3-1 system but it will inevitably be outperformed by a 3 striker tactic made in no time at all.

If one is playing online, then I'd agree. But offline?

I'll make an analogy. Anyone here like to go fishing? Ever fish for trout?

You can fish for trout in a number of ways. I like to use artificial flies. But I could use bait and catch them more easily. Why do I choose to do this? Because bait takes the challenge out of it. It removes the sense of reward, or accomplishment.  It trivializes skill and knowledge. Literally, anyone can catch trout using bait, but some people couldn't even cast a fly, let alone catch anything with one.

The point is I think you should do what gives you the most sense of satisfaction. I've never downloaded a tactic. I could probably find one that wins all the time. But who cares? I look at that 3 striker tactic and I feel dirty just looking at it, let alone using it. I get the sense of satisfaction from doing this myself, using viable real-world tactics and formations. Others will play a formation like that and have a great time. Good for them. Why should it bother me? Or you?

I remember one version of FM had an exploit where you could put a strong, high jumping CB to Challenge Keeper. You could have a center back with 20 goals a season, as long as you chose the right corner delivery option. So I chose Mixed instead (and still do, even if a different one generates more goals). I still got some of those goals, maybe 6 a season. But I didn't feel compelled to use the exploit just because it would be more effective.

It's a common refrain on gaming boards. The game is broken because this gun or that perk or whatever makes me OP! You want to suggest that if they feel that way, perhaps they could use something else that doesn't 'break' the game, but you know there is no point.  Some enjoy the journey and some the destination, or something like that.

 

[RBKalle]

23 minuti fa, onionbag ha scritto:

It's a common refrain on gaming boards. The game is broken because this gun or that perk or whatever makes me OP! You want to suggest that if they feel that way, perhaps they could use something else that doesn't 'break' the game, but you know there is no point.  Some enjoy the journey and some the destination, or something like that.

But many who don't go online looking for tactics etc may have stumbled across the 3-strikers-exploit completely by accident and now think they're tactical geniuses! Possibly even spreading false information about the tactics and the game itself, fooled by their insane overachievemnts.

Not every gamer posts on message boards, and even fewer do so on this particular one. So for all we know, the majority of the non-English speaking FM community may as well be unaware of the bug and spam thier own boards with "unbelievable careers", tips and suggestions based on a game-breaking bug.

Whether people who know decide to use the 4-3-3/3-4-3 to win everything or just for the lulz is irrelevant. The relevant aspect is that yet another serious ME bug is in the game, and this time it's rather easy to reproduce.
The corner glitch and the "CB mark the keeper" ones required a specific setup, but the pacey striker in FM12 or the narrow formation in FM17 were things any casual player could replicate completely by accident.

Honestly, it's rather odd SI didn't put all the available resources to fix it, or at least to nerf it, for the 18.3 patch. It'll be surely fixed by FM19, but who knows which other bug the "fix" will cause...

[onionbag]

17 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But many who don't go online looking for tactics etc may have stumbled across the 3-strikers-exploit completely by accident and now think they're tactical geniuses! Possibly even spreading false information about the tactics and the game itself, fooled by their insane overachievemnts.

Not every gamer posts on message boards, and even fewer do so on this particular one. So for all we know, the majority of the non-English speaking FM community may as well be unaware of the bug and spam thier own boards with "unbelievable careers", tips and suggestions based on a game-breaking bug.

 

I won't argue with your points, they are good ones. I was replying more to the line of thinking that a player might be 'depressed' or somehow be wasting his time creating realistic tactics when all one needs to do is throw 3 strikers in the box.

As to the 'unbelievable careers' point, as long as there is an editor in FM, all claims must be regarded with a pinch of salt. And even if someone did stumble on to this and posts about it, it's down to the individual user whether that is something he wants to use.

I'm not saying these exploits or loopholes shouldn't be closed. They should, if it is not WAD (working as designed). I'm just arguing that their existence does not compel their use, nor does it diminish a more workmanlike approach, regardless of how easy it might be to use the loophole.

[RBKalle]

9 minuti fa, onionbag ha scritto:

 I was replying more to the line of thinking that a player might be 'depressed' or somehow be wasting his time creating realistic tactics when all one needs to do is throw 3 strikers in the box.

As to the 'unbelievable careers' point, as long as there is an editor in FM, all claims must be regarded with a pinch of salt. And even if someone did stumble on to this and posts about it, it's down to the individual user whether that is something he wants to use.

I agree...

Usually those who care enough about tactics will restrain themselves from using an exploit, so the frustration won't be an issue because to them it'd just be like editing their striker to 200CA...

 

9 minuti fa, onionbag ha scritto:

I'm just arguing that their existence does not compel their use, nor does it diminish a more workmanlike approach, regardless of how easy it might be to use the loophole.

Again, it's true, but only for those who KNOW about the bug.

If you're playing a RTS game and a specific, rather common, set of instructions is allowing you to mop the floor with your enemies, would you think "oh, I must have found a bug!" or "Wow, finally I'm really getting the hang of the game!"?

The easier the loophole, the easier it is to expoit it without even understanding.

4-3-3 is a cool formation, and it was even cooler back in the mid-90s, so think of how many of us grew up with it and tried to replicate it in FM18... So you can go from being sacked as Man City manager for losing the FA Cup 4th round to Runcorn FC to win the Champions League with Copenhagen in your second season, only courtesy of a seemingly inconsequent formation switch.

[onionbag]

2 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I agree...

Usually those who care enough about tactics will restrain themselves from using an exploit, so the frustration won't be an issue because to them it'd just be like editing their striker to 200CA...

Exactly. I see many posts about how this player has this PA or what his Professionalism attribute is, and I think to myself how this would have a big negative effect on my enjoyment. The sense of uncertainty is a huge factor in the enjoyment I get out of this game. The letdown I feel when my high hopes for a certain player don't pan out or how a player I viewed as an afterthought continues to grow in to a beast. If I already knew the numbers, where is the mystery? At that point, FM becomes like painting by numbers. In the end, the image looks great, but all the artistry and skill are removed.

WHat others do doesn't concern me a whole lot, other than to wish they would see the light!

[Smkx_Muldoon]

I've tried a couple of variations with a mixed bag of results. 2 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses. 

The 2 wins were both big, 5-1 and 4-1 respectively. 

However, I am Brackley in the National League and my players aren't fantastic. Lots of new players too so they aren't all gelled yet. 

[Heywood JaBlowme]

Has this already been submitted in the bugs forum?

[CaptainSa]

I don't see this loophole actually working in my saves. I can't get it to work. What has seemingly happened post-patch is that 4-4-2 is autowin for the AI, even against big teams. Bournemouth beating Crystal Palace 7-1 away and Man City 2-1 at home. Brighton beating Arsenal 3-1, Watford beating Liverpool 4-1. All these happened in the space of two matchdays.

[Smkx_Muldoon]

35 minutes ago, CaptainSa said:

I don't see this loophole actually working in my saves. I can't get it to work. What has seemingly happened post-patch is that 4-4-2 is autowin for the AI, even against big teams. Bournemouth beating Crystal Palace 7-1 away and Man City 2-1 at home. Brighton beating Arsenal 3-1, Watford beating Liverpool 4-1. All these happened in the space of two matchdays.

Is that just a run of the mill 4-4-2?

[CaptainSa]

1 minute ago, Smkx_Muldoon said:

Is that just a run of the mill 4-4-2?

From what I can gather, sort of yeah. I drew 1-1 with Bournemouth as United and I was second best for most of the game, until I too switched to a 4-4-2.

[Toonrock]

On 4/3/2018 at 19:16, marris09 said:

Im a fan of 4231 or 442 myself.for me it would take the fun out the game,we stopped playing the save,because i stood no chance,he now wants to carry the save on but refuses to go with another formation

Also a fan of 4-2-3-1 and also 3-5-2 

Been somewhat frustrated too throughout the years, when the friends I play online with always uses that years (in addition, most likely unrealistic) exploit-tactic.

This year, I actually came to terms with it after reading a thread regarding someone suggesting wanting a set of difficulty levels in FM.

I responded, that there actually is difficulty levels:

- If your brother is playing an exploit (as it is this year with 3 strikers), then you can tell him he´s playing the game at ´Easy´-level.

- If not using an exploit-tac;  Then you´re playing the game at ´Normal/Challenging´-level.

In my point of view, that´s what the game is designed for;  Not winning straight away neccesarily, not even with a good 2nd tier team.

I think that throughout the years of FM, people have simply been accostumed to achieving great things straight away, and wanting to must-win the championship and (ideally) CL first season.

I acknowledge, it´s always most fun winning - But it´s obviously always a question of how you want to win;  With "The hand of God" - or actually ´using your head´

[Solo171013]

It comes down to how you play.

Quick check in tactics forum. A lot of successful tactics have 3 strikers.

Its how you want to play. I prefer to build a tactic and whilst it takes time it's how i play.  Other want the quick win. Some may have unintentionally stumbled on the fix.

Each to their own. One day we'll have ME with no expolits and people will say it's too hard as they have always used or stumbled upon the hole.

Until then play the way you want and hope you don't come across another player or AI who loves 3 up front!

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, Toonrock said:

This year, I actually came to terms with it after reading a thread regarding someone suggesting wanting a set of difficulty levels in FM.

I responded, that there actually is difficulty levels:

- If your brother is playing an exploit (as it is this year with 3 strikers), then you can tell him he´s playing the game at ´Easy´-level.

- If not using an exploit-tac;  Then you´re playing the game at ´Normal/Challenging´-level.

Exploiting a game isn't playing a game in "easy mode", not in my book. To an extent it's not even playing the game. Upon doing such, nothing overly matters, except you sitting in front of your PC. As of FM, this extents further than tactics. Goals will be scored no matter what. Thus, wins will be had no matter what. You will never get a  feel of how things truly interact. Let alone how hard/easy the game actually truly is. You may play this for ten years+, and never once learn a single thing of how the game actually works. It's like playing a racing game and discovering a bug that gifts your car a sixth gear, whilst all the AI only has one gear to shift up into, but won't -- every time you fire it up. It's not a wrong or bad thing to do. But it is what it is.

The feedback you're going to get, the feedback you may give, won't be reliable anymore. Rushing through the leagues with insufficient players may lead to weird stuff on the transfer markets, as the AI may not gproperly react to low ability players competing on levels they would else never compete on. The entire reputation module may collapse likewise, as it may not be coded to deal with such rises. Every new release may play out exactly as that from five years ago, as the AI and world simulation SI may spend a significant time on coding and improving crumbles. As the exploit usually also isn't build around a sound base structure, random losses and point drops may happen at the worst moment of a save, like a CL final, and many more. What's more, it all typically relies on a major game flaw. A flaw can't be easy mode. A flaw is a flaw. It will be fixed at some point, as it affects everyone.

Personally I'd recommend anybody who wants this to be a super easy game to edit. And to let the assistant handle whatever he should handle for all of those reasons. It's officially supported. It won't break the game. It will lead to none of such stuff.  And you don't need to wait months until somebody may provide you the exploit. Or test for hours until you have found the most efficient one -- which can be a frustrating trial&error experience. I wouldn't waste time on the argument that this would be "cheating". SI provide you with all those tools, and you can only cheat yourself. An exploit drawing half of a game bust is at the bottom line the same thing. Actually, it's bigger than that, as argued: Upon exploiting, added goals will be scored no matter what -- the players, the opposition, anything except you pressing "continue" -- and I've tried various "super tactics" myself throughout the years.

[Rashidi]

10 hours ago, Toonrock said:

I acknowledge, it´s always most fun winning - But it´s obviously always a question of how you want to win;  With "The hand of God" - or actually ´using your head´

You can use your head to beat someone who is playing the game with 3 strikers, so I don't subscribe to your logic

[Toonrock]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You can use your head to beat someone who is playing the game with 3 strikers, so I don't subscribe to your logic

..Well, as long as one self uses this 3 striker-exploit in other matches (against AI also); It´s logically ´hand to ball´ in my opinion

[Toonrock]

7 hours ago, Solo171013 said:

Quick check in tactics forum. A lot of successful tactics have 3 strikers.

Its how you want to play.

I also think it´s a question of whether you want to play it as real-life football - or not;  Since those 3 striker formations have nothing to do with football... You´ll never see any team having 3 players across the middle, fishing - without at least one or two of them helping out (sufficient!) defensively.

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, Toonrock ha scritto:

I also think it´s a question of whether you want to play it as real-life football - or not;  Since those 3 striker formations have nothing to do with football... You´ll never see any team having 3 players across the middle, fishing - without at least one or two of them helping out (sufficient!) defensively.

 

Yeah, but how many people may set up their 4-3-3 thinking they'd get a realistic take of the formation (ie. with one or two strikers tracking back to help the midfield), and will instead get the game-breaking "fishing trio"?

As I've already questioned several times, it's not an exploit you have to go to great lengths to stumble across. You can literally just employ it by sheer chance and, unless you look for more infos on this or other boards, you'll be none the wiser and probably think you've finally mastered FM,,,

[juusal]

On 05/03/2018 at 06:53, Rashidi said:

One candefend against a 523, I did an online head to head with someone else playing vs mode to test this out. The thing most people need to address is how to get your defenders to do their job without backpedalling. If you are a good team playing a 523, then its going to be fairly hard to defend against it. If you are poor team defending against it you need to make sure you are playing the right roles on the flanks with the right amount of individual closing down. 

Honestly if it's really broken then more people should use it, this would bring it even more attention and if sides can find the perfect mix of players and over perform all the time, then I am sure it will become an issue that SI will have to deal with.

The thing is, you can set your team to defend against three strikers, just go deeper and make sure your fullbacks don't leave much space behind etc. But there are several problems regardless. First of all, if the defenders in FM had any awareness of a through ball flying on top of their heads, if they had any idea about proper body positioning, and if they knew how to turn and run and not jog backwards when the ball is clearly going to fly over their heads we wouldn't need to do massive adjustments just to counter three strikers. Secondly, fullbacks always play themselves out in these situations. They position themselves wide when the strikers are inside (hello!) and are too prone to close down advancing fullbacks, leaving a huge space behind them for the striker to attack. All this has huge tactical implications which make the game less enjoyable, simple as that.

Sure, the player can adjust, drop deeper and so on, and I generally speaking tend to not have any issues against three striker formations. However, AI does not know how to counter three strikers and as a consequence you see all these tactics in the forums where people score 100+ goals a season with average teams and all that ridiculousness. Playing three strikers is very common, even pretty common for the AI, especially considering that I cannot remember a team in real life football that would (or would have within the last years, a decade or so) play three narrow strikers similarly to FM. The current Liverpool team is the closest but the way their system plays out is still not that close to how three strikers act in football manager. There is a reason why real life teams don't play like that: it's pretty easy to defend as the attacking team is so narrow. The FM ME just cannot handle this.

edit. Even @Cleon called these three striker formations exploitative. I do not really mind people using those in their own saves, I mean, it doesn't make them a tactical genius but it's their own save after all. The thing that bothers me that it has such wide tactical implications, and this comes from someone who really enjoys the changing tactical aspects and adaptation in the game. 

[forameuss]

32 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

You can literally just employ it by sheer chance and, unless you look for more infos on this or other boards, you'll be none the wiser and probably think you've finally mastered FM,,,

And why is this necessarily a bad thing?  If they're completely unaware of it, and enjoy what they're doing with the game, then why does any of that matter?

[penza]

36 minutes ago, forameuss said:

And why is this necessarily a bad thing?  If they're completely unaware of it, and enjoy what they're doing with the game, then why does any of that matter?

Amen to this!!! 

[Svenc]

3 hours ago, forameuss said:

And why is this necessarily a bad thing?  If they're completely unaware of it, and enjoy what they're doing with the game, then why does any of that matter?

Because any short-term exploit is an either accidental or deliberate workaround around the game's core logics/AI. See also the rest of my post as to what kind of feedback you get -- and more importantly, SI, perhaps. There were completely forum meltdowns due to fixes / reworked code in the past, as players thought they actually had a decent grasp at playing the game -- when they didn't. The important bit here to recognize that that reworked code didn't happen to alienate anybdy. It happened because SI wanted to make the ME play out a bit more like a football match. If I'd be running any download sections on any place, I would make this a sticky, as they are dominated by this exact kind of tactic. Not to alienate. Not to lessen the work. But to point out the aforementioned. I personally think there would be many ways to introduce further difficulty levels, but it can't be this.

It's luckily very easy to estimate if you hit upon an exploit, though. That's been the same since CMish, and it's the same now.
- You consistently get below average sides competing for top spots without any kind of contribution / rapid back to back promotionss included
- You consistently get below average attackers competing for the top in the scoring charts, same.
- You consistently break the all-time scoring records in your league, in particular with any of the game's starting squads

[forameuss]

Just now, Svenc said:

Because any short-term exploit is an either accidental or deliberate workaround. See also the rest of the post as to what kind of feedback you get -- and more importantly, SI, perhaps. There were completely forum meltdowns due to fixes / reworked code in the past, as players thought they actually had a decent grasp at playing the game -- when they didn't. The important bit here to recognize that that reworked code didn't happen to alienate anybdy. It happened because SI wanted to make the ME play out a bit more like a football match. If I'd be running any download sections on any place, I would make this a sticky, as they are dominated by this exact kind of tactic. Not to alienate. Not to lessen the work. But to point out the aforementioned.

It's luckily very easy to estimate if you hit upon an exploit, though.
- You consistently get below average sides competing for top spots without any kind of contribution / rapid back to back promotionss included
- You consistently get below average attackers competing for the top in the scoring charts

But none of that matters.  The person I quoted specifically said there are people out there who don't visit the forums.  I don't think they particularly care about forum meltdowns, warranted or otherwise.  They just play the game they want to, have success, and probably enjoy it as a result.

I've never really understood people getting all worked up about how someone else plays a single player game.

[Svenc]

32 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I 've never really understood people getting all worked up about how someone else plays a single player game

Just imagine you being in that position where you were playing a game for years, dozens, perhaps hundreds of hours. You get bored of it, buy a new release, and all of a sudden it's playing like an entirelly new game, as nothing you did all those years works anymore. That's some of the worst bits. The others I've outlined above. This isn't about getting worked up. It's about empathy -- having experienced the frustrations, the seemingly random weird stuff happening not only through player feedback, but also from testing, first hand. Plus the plethora of FM myth that comes from all of such. Perhaps then you may understand that a little better. The flaw is none of the players, naturally! It's always within the game. It may always have a few -- but they may look very different, and exploiting them thus is no learning experience.

Anybody who's ever tried to give decent long-term advice has stood in direct competition with all of this. For the aforementioned kind of 3 striker tactics to not be as miraculously effective anymore, all SI had to do was to code how the AI tactical decision making worked -- or make forwards behave like in a match of football, where you rarely if ever see three players just parking at the half way line (naturally also a source of frustration if you may face an AI playing such). No structural reworking of the code to make it play out more like football required as such -- such as incorporating a truly collision model between players, and thus the more physical sides of defending which are still missing (but SI seem to be working on). Any of such has happened in the past. I know that various mods around here, such as @herne79 see this differently. However, he may not have been around long enough to truly understand the gist of this.

[RBKalle]

16 minuti fa, forameuss ha scritto:

But none of that matters.  The person I quoted specifically said there are people out there who don't visit the forums.  I don't think they particularly care about forum meltdowns, warranted or otherwise.  They just play the game they want to, have success, and probably enjoy it as a result.

I've never really understood people getting all worked up about how someone else plays a single player game.

You've completely misinterpreted my point...

I couldn't care less about how people play their game, and I'm not even one of the hardcore purists who never reload/replay a game either.

HOWEVER

The moment such a huge flaw can easily and unintentionally be exploited, the whole learning curve goes out of the window and you can have plenty of completely "inept" players winning  everything and thinking they're awesome, while in truth they've merely managed to randomly press all the right buttons... Kinda like a kid pulling off a complicated combo by smashing on his gamepad.

Sure, it doesn't affect anyone else, but, as Svenc pointed out, what about when the bug gets fixed and suddenly a random 4-3-3 doesn't guarantee insta-wins anymore and the same myriad of guys who were winning the 2018-19 Champions League with Sheriff Tiraspol now struggle to win the domestic cup first round against a bunch of amateurs?
They'll THEN probably join a forum to bitch about it, as "last year I was so awesome, SI really effed it up!" or will simply stop playing, possibly not even buying the full game if the demo is such a bloodbath.

And more than that, from a general standpoint, I can forgive a bug that requires a complicated setup, but not a fatal flaw in a rather basic function... Just imagine if in a driving game, setting the front and rear wing to 15° caused your car to have both extra speed and extra downforce... You'd think you're Ayrton Senna's second coming, while you just are getting an unfair advantage due to poor design.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

You've completely misinterpreted my point...

I couldn't care less about how people play their game, and I'm not even one of the hardcore purists who never reload/replay a game either.

HOWEVER

The moment such a huge flaw can easily and unintentionally be exploited, the whole learning curve goes out of the window and you can have plenty of completely "inept" players winning  everything and thinking they're awesome, while in truth they've merely managed to randomly press all the right buttons... Kinda like a kid pulling off a complicated combo by smashing on his gamepad.

Sure, it doesn't affect anyone else, but, as Svenc pointed out, what about when the bug gets fixed and suddenly a random 4-3-3 doesn't guarantee insta-wins anymore and the same myriad of guys who were winning the 2018-19 Champions League with Sheriff Tiraspol now struggle to win the domestic cup first round against a bunch of amateurs?
They'll THEN probably join a forum to bitch about it, as "last year I was so awesome, SI really effed it up!" or will simply stop playing, possibly not even buying the full game if the demo is such a bloodbath.

And more than that, from a general standpoint, I can forgive a bug that requires a complicated setup, but not a fatal flaw in a rather basic function... Just imagine if in a driving game, setting the front and rear wing to 15° caused your car to have both extra speed and extra downforce... You'd think you're Ayrton Senna's second coming, while you just are getting an unfair advantage due to poor design.

And you're going off on a rant about something completely different too.  

If someone is stumbling across an exploit, has never visited the forums, and just wants to settle down and have fun with a game on their own, then where is there any harm?  He or she is having fun with the game.  You can project ad say that that means they'll suddenly appear next year and start complaining, but that just happens to suit your argument.  He/she could just as easily do the complete opposite, or just find the next "loophole" in the next edition.  But again, none of that matters.  Any bugs should be fixed if it's possible without breaking other functions, but if someone is having fun in spite of it, that isn't a bad thing, no matter how many killjoys believe otherwise.

But how dare these filthy casuals enjoy a game...don't they know they have to do things properly?!

[Svenc]

15 minutes ago, forameuss said:

But how dare these filthy casuals enjoy a game...don't they know they have to do things properly?!

I agree that RBKalle comes off a bit "rantish". However, I think that's a complete misunderstanding of the point he tries to make. It seems similar to mine. However, you're right. It's a game, and ultimately, this should be, if at all, SI's concern. All of this has been happening ever since anyway in some form.

[gazza26]

i have played people online and they were using 433 and my 4231 beat them, so not sure about this exploit , i have also tried it against ai and got mixed results .

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, juusal said:

However, AI does not know how to counter three strikers and as a consequence you see all these tactics in the forums where people score 100+ goals a season with average teams and all that ridiculousness. Playing three strikers is very common, even pretty common for the AI, especially considering that I cannot remember a team in real life football that would (or would have within the last years, a decade or so) play three narrow strikers similarly to FM.

If it is a loophole then more people should use it, the last time SI felt they had to go in and fix/change/rewrite a match engine, was when Diablo and Scramjet made short work on the engine. So yes if it is an exploit then more people should use it till it becomes so big that SI have no other choice but to do a hotfix.

Having said that, from everything that I gather based on SI's engagement here is that they are happy with how it is simulating current stats in the game. They take a holistic view of the whole thing, and they may be happy, however to make them really unhappy, and I know I have done this before, is to bust the engine wide open with an obvious exploit.  You want someone to fix a hole in a wall? Make sure its a big hole. So go out there, play the game and bust it, post it up, publicise it, do holiday mode testing with the tactic, like what I did with my super tactics. There is nothing more annoying to the developers than a super tactic.  

Are 3 striker systems strong in the game, they have been since 03/04, they have ALWAYS been strong. The human mind has tactical permutations that are impossible for the current match engine to simulate, so as long as that is the case, I don't see the match engine ever being able to handle a human managers creativity, and when that happens, people will call that an exploit. That's just gaming reality.

[Rashidi]

53 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

The moment such a huge flaw can easily and unintentionally be exploited, the whole learning curve goes out of the window and you can have plenty of completely "inept" players winning  everything and thinking they're awesome, while in truth they've merely managed to randomly press all the right buttons... Kinda like a kid pulling off a complicated combo by smashing on his gamepad.

True but its actually quite fun to use a 442 and hammer that system and laugh to yourself, knowing the other player isn't tactically shrewd enough to know what to do :-). So yes it's a challenge.  And don't do online network games, do it on Versus Mode :-)

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

Anybody who's ever tried to give decent long-term advice has stood in direct competition with all of this. For the aforementioned kind of 3 striker tactics to not be as miraculously effective anymore, all SI had to do was to code how the AI tactical decision making worked -- or make forwards behave like in a match of football, where you rarely if ever see three players just parking at the half way line (naturally also a source of frustration if you may face an AI playing such). No structural reworking of the code to make it play out more like football required as such -- such as incorporating a truly collision model between players, and thus the more physical sides of defending which are still missing (but SI seem to be working on). Any of such has happened in the past. I know that various mods around here, such as @herne79 see this differently. However, he may not have been around long enough to truly understand the gist of this.

Huh?

I don't think we should have a true collision model or improve the ME / 3D engine / AI to better represent football?  Or are you just saying I think the ability to employ a 433 (or whatever "exploit" tactic is the current flavour) is ok?

If those first two, not sure where that's from.  If the latter, I've simply said before that imo having a flexible ME to play the game however we want to - to give us choice - is fine by me.  It might suck for sure if you play online and come up against someone who uses such a system and you don't know how to counter it, but sorry - welcome to online gaming.  Better stay away from Star Wars and it's loot boxes then.  Anyway, as you say above:

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

It's a game, and ultimately, this should be, if at all, SI's concern. All of this has been happening ever since anyway in some form

No idea why the 433 has suddenly become the "exploit" or "loophole" tactic of choice when it's been around for ever.  And why is it an "exploit" anyway?  Because people's own systems struggle to beat it?  I suppose their own systems which beat everyone else not using the 433 isn't an exploit.  Or because some streamer takes a small club to the top?  I've just done that with Monza using a 532 formation, have I found another exploit?

People like @Rashidi having been telling us how to beat such systems for ages but that doesn't seem to make much difference, let alone actually have someone create a thread in the Tactics forum asking for help.

Of course lots of things in the game can be improved, but taking away people's freedom of choice for me isn't one of them.  As forameuss says above:

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

If someone is stumbling across an exploit, has never visited the forums, and just wants to settle down and have fun with a game on their own, then where is there any harm?  He or she is having fun with the game.

 

[Rashidi]

Ultimately this is a GAME, SI can call it a football simulation as far I care, but that extends to its ability to play on its own against itself and thereby produce realistic stats. And while doing this gamers should have the chance to pit themselves against it. Humans will and always will have an advantage against a machine because we are creative creatures. We see something wrong on the pitch and we zoom in on it and we exploit it. If I were playing a match and some AI was leaving a flank vulnerable, should I just ignore it and play my tactic? No. I should be given the freedom to make a tactical change. 

You can defend against the 3 man attack, if the AI can't defend against my 3 man attack, that's not my problem. If you can't defend against my 3 man attack in an online one vs match that's your problem. That's the fundamental difference. We can defend against the 3 man attack. Is it brutal, on the counter yes. Do you see teams in the premiership telling Liverpool to hold Firmino, Salah and Mane back when they attack? Why are teams defensive when it comes to Liverpools and Manchester City's 3 man counters? They know that if they attack and leave their flanks open they will get ripped apart. Klopp even tells Salah, stay on the shoulder of the last man ALL THE TIME. Teams like Arsenal who in their infinite wisdom decided to leave their flanks open with a 3 man backline were rightfully destroyed by Liverpools 3 man attack. Last season Spurs lost 4-0 to Liverpool's ability to hit on the counter, because their 4231 had isolated itself so much it allowed Liverpools midfield to boss it. This season they made sure that same problem didn't happen. 

I am not saying that the game is not flawed, it is. I want the AI to have fun playing its 3 man attack. It then becomes a challenge for me to play against it.  In human vs human play, I do dislike it when people use downloaded tactics and then boast about their feats. Welcome to the online gaming world, that happens. 

[RBKalle]

4 ore fa, forameuss ha scritto:

But how dare these filthy casuals enjoy a game...don't they know they have to do things properly?!

And now you're making stuff up...

In other threads I've defended the "cheaters" in the past, meaning I don't care one bit if people reload the odd game (or edit their local club to be richer than PSG and City combined). So if they want to download one of the game-breaking 3-strikers formations, more power to them. (BTW, I've downloaded one as well out of curiosity).

My "rant" is only based on this laissez faire attitude about what likely is, the biggest and most exploitable bug since the Arrows...  Is it irrelevant to most players' enjoyment of the game? Sure it is. Is it acceptable that such an easy setup can literally suck the challenge out of the game? Sorry, but to me it's not acceptable. I don't blame whose who exploit it, willingly or unintentionally, but I do blame SI for the situation.

That's all I care to rant about

[Loversleaper]

Well, it's hard to take this thread too seriously when there isn't really any evidence presented in the thread that we are, in fact, facing a ME breaking tactic. You can build strong tactics with basically any formation as long as you have a good idea of not only how to build them, but how you use them as well. AI decision making has always been an issue, as others in the thread have pointed out, but to directly say that 3 strikers automatically give you the win is not entirely correct - at least from what I have seen and experienced. I did a zip around the web and from what I gather then there are some saying that it works while others say it doesn't work for them. I have looked at some of those tactics and, as others have pointed out, it still hasn't indicated that this actually breaks the ME and see a mixed bag of results.

 

If someone has a super tactic and can upload a game save where you play a good 10-15 games without saving (this is still a small sample though) then I am sure there are plenty of people who would like to take a look. As another user mentioned, if enough people (and some of the right people) try it out and it is a case - maybe something can be done about it. Right now, it just seems more like hear-say...  

[Toonrock]

3 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

Well, it's hard to take this thread too seriously when there isn't really any evidence presented in the thread that we are, in fact, facing a ME breaking tactic.

Completely agree;  It´s very difficult to take it serious, how people can keep on using an unrealistic 3 striker formation, that in addition isn´t a ME breaking tactic as stated... 

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

 If the latter, I've simply said before that imo having a flexible ME to play the game however we want to - to give us choice - is fine by me.

 

I am totally supportive of any way of playing --- what I don't support is a flaw that can be exploited, be that ME or AI, and this always is either one of those or both. One of them is likely always going to be in, in some shape. Abusing that for fantasy saves, is also mighty fine. I've tried it too to watch the fireworks. But depending on what forums you are moderating, you may one day find out what I meant with my general concerns, and why, when I am asked by someone how to make the game easier, I always point to the editor and assistants in the meantime.

[Loversleaper]

35 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I am totally supportive of any way of playing --- what I don't support is a flaw that can be exploited, be that ME or AI, and this always is either one of those or both. One of them is likely always going to be in, in some shape. Abusing that for fantasy saves, is also mighty fine. I've tried it too to get a laugh or two. But depending on what forums you are moderating, you may one day find out what I meant with my general concerns.

Svenc - quite an amazing screenshot and must admit I haven't really seen anything like that (especially if that happened only after 46 minutes of the game). What are the details/circumstances surrounding that game, if I may ask?