ME and tactics, I have a solution: difficulty Levels in FM

[Delvi]

I am reading often criticism to ME, tactics and coaching. Honestly, I often agree with the opinions of people complaining about these aspects of the game. I think that the main problem is that we should have a game for both "experts" of FM and beginners. I played football many years, I was working as scout for an agent and I had the opportunity to talk with many managers (we call it "allenatore" in Italy, which means coach, since here the manager cares only about tactics and squad management, not about the transfer market, which is headed by the director of football). I am sure the guys at SI Games did the same, they had chats with managers, coaches, maybe they're developing the ME with the help from people with UEFA badges and experience in real football, so I think that the problem is not the scarcity of football knowledge.

I think that guys at SI Games don't want to develop a game which is too complex, because this would lead to loose a lot of costumers and potential long term "aficionados". On the other hand, the tactics and trainings are not satisfying the expert players and guys with deep knowledge of football.

I will not focus on the training now, I will only write about ME and tactics, since these are two aspects strictly related.

I think that SI Games took the right direction with the last editions:

1) it was introduced the 3D with related physics and this was a big step in the right direction;

2) arrows were eliminated, the movement of players are determined by role and duties, this is how it works IRL and it is was a good change;

3) things were ironed in order to achieve stats similar to stats IRL.

I think that this is a good starting point to develop and to take a step further:

1) introduce defensive and attacking formations (with different roles and duties), I know that this could lead to "tactics cheat" and exploits, but these things can be ironed and solved, it will take time but I am confident that people at SI are smart enough to achieve this.

Here is a tactical analysis of Guardiola's Man City, it is in Italian (sorry) but I'm sure you can find similar tactical analysis in English, it is clear that there are different formations when in possess and not in possess of ball: http://assoanalisti.it/analisi-tattica-barcellona-pep-guardiola/

2) detailed instructions about defensive line, movement of defenders in different situations, pressing (this can be a part of defensive formation instructions)

3) management of different situations, for instance it would be great to create systems like this, to be activated when there is a negative transisition: https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/10/07/counter-or-gegenpressing/

3) improvement of free kicks and corners

4) have the AI teams playing with different styles: a team managed by Guardiola or Sarri should lead to different playing style and statistics that a team managed by Simeone or Allegri.

I know that this will take a lot of time to be implemented and optimized, but I'm sure it would be a great step forward in the right direction.

However, I know this would be not be everyone's cup of tea, so I think it could be possible to have different "difficulty levels", i.e. from more basic tactics instruction (with standard positioning for non possesion, pressing, free kicks...) to the highest level, where the player has total control over tactical behaviour, possession, non possesion, transitions, free kicks etc.

I think this would be the best way to make happy everyone, from beginners to nerdy football addicted as I am.

I would really appreciate to know the opinion of other forumites and SI Games people.

 

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, Delvi said:

we should have a game for both "experts" of FM and beginners

Sorry, tl;dr.

We have such a thing.

 

a) Full fat Fm v Touch (never touched it myself, mind)

 

OR

 

b) Manage Man City/Barcelona with max managerial experience v non-league club with no money.

Or do what I do - non-league, no money, academy challenge - i.e. you can't buy or bring in any players other than the kids who come through your academy.

[KUBI]

There is also another way to add difficulty, if you start with a Sunday League Footballer reputation an managing a top club, or to make it easier, starting as former International player managing an amateur club.

[mrbrownsays]

The problem is that these ways of adding difficulty only work for a couple of seasons. If you get your non league team promoted your rep and their rep go up. If you get a cup run going then the finances sort themselves out (gradually admittedly). If you want a long term save every club sensibly managed seems destined to success. I absolutely agree we need an easier setting for those who groan about the game being too hard (there are lots outside our fm bubble), a medium setting (similar to how it is now) and a more difficult setting. I agree that banning yourself from transfers is a way to make the game much harder but obviously transfers and scouting are quite a fun part of the game and it seems a shame that to get a challenge we have to ban them.

There are lots of possible ways to make the game harder. One of the easiest ones would be to reduce the amount of control a manager actually has. Imagine you played the game where you had little control of finances with a DoF buying and selling your club into trouble every other season. Or where you were restricted to a certain formation. Or where the chairman insisted you played his favourites.

Another idea is to restrict manager knowledge. Why not make it impossible for us to know players attributes precisely, making an attributes best knowledge to be in a range of three or four. Same with their condition and anything else where a real manager doesn't have perfect knowledge.

Dynamics could be used here, perhaps you could give yourself a crap personality from the start of the game that makes managing dynamics harder.

The obvious one is making the AI significantly smarter at playing the game.

[craiigman]

I’d like to see “sliders” like in Fifa for example. Like if I wanted to, I could set the opposition to make more mistakes or turn their finishing or pace to 1/20 (as fm goes), without effecting them on the other games they play.

Maybe included with the in-game editor? 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

 

I don't see the point of difficult levels on the tactical side of things. But, I do think they're going in the right direction. FM18's analysis thing on the formation screen is really useful, in a round about way, highlighting strengths and weaknesses. I think, the next step - and some may argue this has already been done - is to provide the user with basic, balanced formations and roles. Perhaps the major formations should be covered first, and a set of questions presented to the player on the style of play he wishes to do, and the game then sets one up for him.

 

A better tutorial would go a long way to helping as well. And better assistance advice on the creation of a tactic.

 

3 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

) Full fat Fm v Touch (never touched it myself, mind)

Isn't this fundamentally incorrect? FMTouch is essentially the same game, just with the social features toned down/removed.

[mark1985]

As said above, playing as City/Barca etc vs playing non league/Andorra/Gibraltar etc is the closest  FM has to easy/normal/hard mode. And long may it continue. You can also make it as hard as you want for yourself such as relying on only homegrown players (even adds a layer of difficulty with the top clubs) or any kind of other challenge you would like. 

[Delvi]

I've expressed myself in a wrong way. I didn't mean level of challenge, like for instance could be begin career in low leagues without badges and reputation.

I meant level of complexity.

Something like that:

Easy: simplified tactic section

Normal: as it is now

Hard: you need to indicate the positions of players during possession, pressing, transitions etc.

[KUBI]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Delvi:

I've expressed myself in a wrong way. I didn't mean level of challenge, like for instance could be begin career in low leagues without badges and reputation.

I meant level of complexity.

Something like that:

Easy: simplified tactic section

Normal: as it is now

Hard: you need to indicate the positions of players during possession, pressing, transitions etc.

Did you ever try FM Touch?

[RBKalle]

On paper it could work, but if the game "under the hood" is still one and the same, all you do is removing some tools from the human players' toolbox.

 

As per the trite "just play FM Touch!" reply, the fundamental flaw in a stripped-down version of the game or of the User Interface or of the Tactical Creator is that you just have fewer options at your disposal to achieve the same results.

An actual "difficulty level" would probably require a default cut of the opposition players' CA, consistency or whatever... But from a tactical standpoint it's simply not feasible. If you give the P1 playing FM on Easy only 5 basic tactics and a handful of instructions (like in CM3 or something like that), that means AI managers must be restricted to use the same formations, which would ruin the game IMO.

 

[Delvi]

1 ora fa, KUBI ha scritto:

Did you ever try FM Touch?

Not, but as I understood is something similar to the "Easy" version, considering FM the "Normal" version.

What I'd like to have in the future, is the "Hard" version. A game more deep, with more control on tactics.

[craiigman]

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

Did you ever try FM Touch?

FM Touch uses the same engine..

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 hours ago, craiigman said:

I’d like to see “sliders” like in Fifa for example. Like if I wanted to, I could set the opposition to make more mistakes or turn their finishing or pace to 1/20 (as fm goes), without effecting them on the other games they play.

Maybe included with the in-game editor? 

No, no, and thrice no. The game ever implements nonsense like that, and I'm done with it. 

[sporadicsmiles]

9 hours ago, Delvi said:

1) introduce defensive and attacking formations (with different roles and duties), I know that this could lead to "tactics cheat" and exploits, but these things can be ironed and solved, it will take time but I am confident that people at SI are smart enough to achieve this.

Here is a tactical analysis of Guardiola's Man City, it is in Italian (sorry) but I'm sure you can find similar tactical analysis in English, it is clear that there are different formations when in possess and not in possess of ball: http://assoanalisti.it/analisi-tattica-barcellona-pep-guardiola/

2) detailed instructions about defensive line, movement of defenders in different situations, pressing (this can be a part of defensive formation instructions)

3) management of different situations, for instance it would be great to create systems like this, to be activated when there is a negative transisition: https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/10/07/counter-or-gegenpressing/

3) improvement of free kicks and corners

4) have the AI teams playing with different styles: a team managed by Guardiola or Sarri should lead to different playing style and statistics that a team managed by Simeone or Allegri.

It is your title that is misleading people here (myself included when I read it) since there has long been a debate for having an "easy", "medium" and "hard" AI that has different skill levels. I am absolutely against this, because as soon as the ME stops treating human and AI the same, then we have lost control over how we play, and how to know how to play better. I'll put my two cents into your points though, to stimulate further debate.

1). Defensive and attacking formations are kinda already in the game. The base tactic you pick determines your defensive formation. The roles and duties you pick determines your attacking formation. It is not set in stone as a separate screen, but you can easily see how this works in the game if you play with a flexible formation. The 451, for example, can be made to look like a 433, a 4231, a 4321, and quite a few others when you are in the attacking phases. I'd argue this is already more complex than having two screens designating your offensive and defensive formations, and I do not see how you could apply your idea to the current roles and duty as implemented.

2) This I would like to see a little better. However, you can sort things like pressing out using opposition instructions. These often get a bad rep (I remember reading someone on the tactics forums saying if you have to use them, you do not understand tactics). However, to be able to specify player behaviour towards specific positions is like telling players to do things in specific parts of the field. It could be improved for sure.

3) Again, anything that adds another level of being able to deal with unusual transitions, or to be able to better define how you play would always be welcome to me. I guess for new things like that, should they be implemented, it takes a huge amount of coding and testing. Not an easy task.

4) This I absolutely agree with. One of the biggest flaws with FM is that it is not always easy to tell different styles apart, and that managers are kinda very much the same. Again, I suspect this is a problem of the AI not being sophisticated enough, or perhaps of the user not really paying attention. 

To finish though, I would want these things included across the board, or not at all. There is no point trying to split the game into two. There are other ways to provide yourself with a challenge; not managing top sides, starting with low reputation, only buying youth, only using academy players. 

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

51 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

1). Defensive and attacking formations are kinda already in the game. The base tactic you pick determines your defensive formation. The roles and duties you pick determines your attacking formation. It is not set in stone as a separate screen, but you can easily see how this works in the game if you play with a flexible formation. The 451, for example, can be made to look like a 433, a 4231, a 4321, and quite a few others when you are in the attacking phases. I'd argue this is already more complex than having two screens designating your offensive and defensive formations, and I do not see how you could apply your idea to the current roles and duty as implemented.

I say, they should show an offensive/defensive screen side-by-side. Don't change the system/roles or anything like that. Just have the base formation on the left, and when you implement the roles, show the formation in 'attack' on the right. That might be extremely useful for a lot of people. (To clarify further: You can't change the right side-screen at all, you still have to do the roles etc, it would just present the attacking positioning.)

[penza]

I used to be able to edit AI tactics (AI default tactics) but they removed them .. thanks!

[Guest El Payaso]

@sporadicsmiles difficulty level doesn't mean that the engine treats the AI and human users differently. It would mean that different difficulty level AIs would be better or worse using the tools that we are given. And like said touch is just a stripped version of the full version without any changes to the AI. 

Also it is wrong to limit the difficulty level just to the match engine as for example training, player treatment and squad building play even bigger role in terms how challenging the AI and the game is. The AI is able to perform reasonably well in some of the matches that it manages but the biggest difference comes in long run. 

All these suggestions "pick this team" or "use this reputation" are mainly laughable suggestions and just intentional ways to nerf your own gaming and they don't make any changes to the rest of the gaming universe of FM and by that don't create more realistic gaming experience. Something like picking a lower league club will only increase the amount of continue clicks and hours you have to use. 

The difficulty level needs to come from the AI and the features that the game introduces for us. 

The entry level or easy access stuff, whatever you want to call it, is great for beginners and people who don't want to learn how to play the game but as it is the only option in the game it kills completely off such aspects as realistic simulation and challenge. I think that this was the original idea of the game where they have drifted quite far away now...

[Delvi]

43 minuti fa, isignedupfornorealreason ha scritto:

I say, they should show an offensive/defensive screen side-by-side. Don't change the system/roles or anything like that. Just have the base formation on the left, and when you implement the roles, show the formation in 'attack' on the right. That might be extremely useful for a lot of people. (To clarify further: You can't change the right side-screen at all, you still have to do the roles etc, it would just present the attacking positioning.)

This is a really good idea.

For instance, I was reading about the transition of Man City from 4-5-1 to 3-2-4-1, which happens in some moments of the match, where you have the defensive line Walker - Stones - Otamendi - Delph that switch to something like that:

We probably can do this with FM 2018, giving instruction to RB Walker and DC Stones to convert to center, DC Otamendi to go on the left and setting Delph as inverted wing back. Having a second screen showing what will actually happen giving different tasks to players, will be really helpful to visualize the results of our instructions.

[KUBI]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb El Payaso:

The difficulty level needs to come from the AI and the features that the game introduces for us. 

It would need adjusting various parts of the game and would also mean that they need to test different levels, which could become a nightmare, as one change might only cause issues in one level, while another affect the other one.

[craiigman]

11 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

No, no, and thrice no. The game ever implements nonsense like that, and I'm done with it. 

Why? You wouldn’t have to use them

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, craiigman ha scritto:

Why? You wouldn’t have to use them

I guess because, as already explained, it's not just about "on Easy, AI players get a -25% on all attributes"  (like it was the case on FIFA Manager, with negotiations and other aspects being easier or harder depending on the difficulty level of choice).

The OP's idea requires to have two or three different versions of FM for it to work properly. Which it'd be hell to implement and test. Unless, of course, it's merely a matter of stripping down some features to make the game look "easier", while under the hood it's still the same, complex, FM. And that'd be even worse because those playing on Easy won't have access to all the required tools to succeed.

It'd be like FIFA or PES only allowing Beginners to play with a 4-buttons control scheme. Sure, it'd be easier to pick it up, but if all the options you have are Pass, Lob, Shoot and Tackle, with no tricks, no advanced controls, no teammate controls etc, you'll still struggle to play a game that NEEDS (sort of) those extra features to be at its best.

[tacticsdude]

Simple and Advanced tactics
For the tactics UI, I'm with the OP's idea of having 2 interfaces, one simplified and one with more realistic complexity. For the record, I feel that the current UI is both too difficult on users that are learning it, and too simple to represent real life tactics once you finally understand it.

For instance, the way I see it, there could be a simplified version of the current system to act as the default tactics UI, and if you want you can switch to advanced view which gives you separate formations for attack and defense, and the player instructions have no locks on them. One way it could work is if I want to remove 'tackle hard' for a BWM, the game lets me do it and simply switches the role to 'custom' leaving me to tweak the player's instructions at will instead of being on rails for that particular role. (What I'm really thinking is more involved, but this could be a way to do it very easily with the existing system.)

 

RE: Difficulty
For me, starting further down the league and financial ladder is not making the game more difficult, just longer. I start in the second or third division, and that means I have about 4-5 seasons of actual game play before I'm too powerful for the AI to stand a chance. And I can only look the other way for so long, once I reach the first division it is painfully obvious that the game can't stay realistic, big clubs don't play like themselves, big players are not correctly represented, the AI is barely thinking, and everything is too easy (keeping the players happy, developing youth, playing a deep rotation, managing finances, countering the AI's tactics - everything is too easy).

In recap, while the tactics are a problem (for instance, the inability to separate the attacking and defensive formation by itself prevents this tactics UI from being serious), but a much larger priority in terms of realism are a stronger AI system and a much cleaner ME. It won't matter much if the tactics are spot on, if the AI can't break you down and the ME keeps leaving gaps and doing weird/buggy things.

[tacticsdude]

21 hours ago, craiigman said:

I’d like to see “sliders” like in Fifa for example.

I think it is time for SI to provide a modding platform so that fans like myself can make their own mods to customize the ME/AI. I don't think that FM is going to be more realistic anytime soon, but if they provide a way to access the logic behind the scenes, maybe the community can offer adaptations of the ME/AI designed by us as a mod without affecting the larger pool of players that don't mean to play 20 seasons at a time.

It doesn't have to be anything too fancy at first. Even a detailed INI file would go a long way. For instance, simple mods I would do immediately:
- prevent games ending with more than 2-3 injuries for any team
- tone up the passing creativity of midfielders in the final third
- forwards make more creative runs
- wingers can choose to go inside or wide (not just one way)
- fix the crazy CM spacing issues
- stronger momentum (like teams reacting to being 1 down)

This should be easy enough to do with INI files:
final_third__through_pass_attempt_choice = +20%
final_third__through_pass_attempt_success_chance= +10%
final_third__on_the_ball__turning_speed = +30%

That sounds like the CAMs will be passing more often and better thus creating more goals, but that effect gets countered by the CMs defending better (with better positioning). The result may be similar final scores on paper, but on the pitch it would look more realistic and result in more varied and interesting goals through the middle (like in real life).

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, tacticsdude said:

I think it is time for SI to provide a modding platform so that fans like myself can make their own mods to customize the ME/AI. I don't think that FM is going to be more realistic anytime soon, but if they provide a way to access the logic behind the scenes, maybe the community can offer adaptations of the ME/AI designed by us as a mod without affecting the larger pool of players that don't mean to play 20 seasons at a time.

It doesn't have to be anything too fancy at first. Even a detailed INI file would go a long way. For instance, simple mods I would do immediately:
- prevent games ending with more than 2-3 injuries for any team
- tone up the passing creativity of midfielders in the final third
- forwards make more creative runs
- wingers can choose to go inside or wide (not just one way)
- fix the crazy CM spacing issues
- stronger momentum (like teams reacting to being 1 down)

This should be easy enough to do with INI files:
final_third__through_pass_attempt_choice = +20%
final_third__through_pass_attempt_success_chance= +10%
final_third__on_the_ball__turning_speed = +30%

That sounds like the CAMs will be passing more often and better thus creating more goals, but that effect gets countered by the CMs defending better (with better positioning). The result may be similar final scores on paper, but on the pitch it would look more realistic and result in more varied and interesting goals through the middle (like in real life).

It wouldn't benefit SI in any way, so really can't see it happening.

[forameuss]

I'm sure they'd love to spend months and months rewriting the ME, not to make it better, but to open it up exponentially, and receive hundreds of bug reports of people complaining that changing one attribute doesn't work the way they expect it to.  That sounds like something they'll be well up for.

[tyro]

I don't really see how you can have difficulty in a simulation game. You can set your own difficulty by picking a stronger or weaker team? By setting up your manager profile and attributes?

As to having a "less complicated game" - there's FMT. It is not "easy" mode. In fact, it may even be harder than the regular game in some respects because you don't have 500 ways to pump up morale. FMT focuses on tactics and transfers. All the rest is reduced. Little team talks. Little press interaction. Simplified scouting and staff management. You set up your tactic and play. No familiarity, no training 3 tactics, no waiting for the bars to fill up. It is more focused and thus less complicated. You can focus on the essentials. But it is by no means easier. IT has the same match engine and you have to have your tactic thought out to work well. The only benefit is, you don't have the problem of waiting for familiarity. You will right away see if it doesn't work.

[kingjericho]

The level of difficuly is influenced by your choices even before starting the save. Your reputation + club you choose + how you plan to run the save (money spender, youth only, etc) - this is what makes the "difficuly level", just like in real life.

[forameuss]

Just now, kingjericho said:

The level of difficuly is influenced by your choices even before starting the save. Your reputation + club you choose + how you plan to run the save (money spender, youth only, etc) - this is what makes the "difficuly level", just like in real life.

And it's exactly how it should be.  Like tyro says, it's very difficult (no pun intended) to add what could be considered a difficulty level in a game like this, without just putting in a clunky and over-simplified "add/remove 10 from their attributes".  It's often championed by people that either find the game far too easy - either because they've mastered it, or they're using exploits - or far too hard.  Difficulty levels would be a pretty ham-fisted way of pleasing both of these groups.  Having a more logical AI, and making the game less of a black-box affair, would probably be the way to make it more accessible for everyone.  If it was more intuitive then people finding it difficult may be able to achieve more just by thinking logically.  It likely wouldn't help those that find it too easy, but there are ways of artificially adding challenge if they really want to.  

Long story short, difficulty levels are a terrible idea, and always have been.

[kingjericho]

30 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Long story short, difficulty levels are a terrible idea, and always have been.

Yes. Honestly I see a lot of suggestion that, even if I totally disagree with them, have some logic (like having women's football). But in this case I don't see how that would make the game any better, more realistic, or more enjoyable.

The game is supposed to be a simulator, therefore there should only be one difficuly level, which is the one who most resembles real life. And in my opinion the game does that well, of course limited by our technology. For sure it's one of the best simulator games, probably the best (in every categories).

If people find the game too hard (like I often do) it's because something is not being done very well from the user side, like tactics, squad selections, ignoring form, morale, etc.

[Delvi]

I think you read only the the title of the discussion (which is misleading, my fault). I just would like to see a deeper simulation with focus on tactics and training (an improved AI would also be great).

I was thinking to have beside a less complex version (like FMT) so that casual players will not be scared and SI Games will be happy with sales. 

[qDizzy]

yea i think i get what Delvi, means and i agree with it..

3 levels of sophistication and details.... its quite genius actually...

some people dont wanna get involved in all the little deatails - and others arent all that familar with tactics, like he said, FM beginners.. while others want more detail and very familar with tactics...

so having different level of difficulties and details would be cool...

think about chess - not alot of players starts playing vs chess bots of the highest level... but they start at a level they feel is just right, and sometimes u play a chess bot on easy for practice, if u wanna practice a new opening ( formation/tactics ) ... if a 14 year old kid plays this game he should be able to enjoy it and be able to play the game and find success in it... 

with that said ima offer like an examlple if what i think would be starting points...

3 levels of detail and sophistication - and 3 levels of difficulty... (remember guys, if a 14,16 year old gamer or some1 older new to soccer downloaded the demo or something, it would be cool if they can the game also on a easier level; while the pros play ona harder level)

levels of sophistication and details

light:  -- all that stuff of talking to the press is taken a notch down -- the transfers are made a little easier with less options in the bonus/clauses and stuff -- practice made a little easier, something like auto training where u pick the player and select the role and postion u want him to play and thats it, no addtional training option and stuff, and other thjngs simplified....

medium: pretty much FM as we know it

heavy: FM on steriods--- giving us options to select excalty what area to train specfically--- no roles we simply get to choose excalty what the player does and how high up or back he plays --- a 2nd screen for when a the team losses possesion the defensive shape u want your team to chamge to (for example 433 on offenses, 442 on defense, or whatever) --- scouting made even more realstic... 

and for dificulty levels..

easy: the ME can deduce 5 points in all attributes vs the team your playing...

meduim: FM as is

hard: FM as is, except the guys at FM would copy the tactics of each team's managef in RL and put it in the game... so when your playing manchester city ... u could be playing vs peps 433 , or his 3 4 3, or his 3 3 4... and it could switch up mid game you... futher more, the comp would try and "scout your team" and prepare something to slow your team down, like if u have messi, maybe the comp man marks messi...

just rough draft ideas guys like i said... some hypos just as examples 

 

i really like the idea and hope maybe the guys at FM give it a thout..

cheers Delvi, great idea!

[forameuss]

45 minutes ago, qDizzy said:

some people dont wanna get involved in all the little deatails - and others arent all that familar with tactics, like he said, FM beginners.. while others want more detail and very familar with tactics...

You're right, but that doesn't require any kind of extra coding.  I don't care about the media, I couldn't care any less about training than I already do, and a lot of the time I'm happy for my Director of Football to go out and do most of the leg-work with transfers.  Sometimes I can't even be bothered playing the smaller games depending on the save.  And every single one of those I can either delegate or work around.  There is no need for extra structures to be put in place.

[RBKalle]

12 ore fa, Delvi ha scritto:

I think you read only the the title of the discussion (which is misleading, my fault). I just would like to see a deeper simulation with focus on tactics and training (an improved AI would also be great).

I was thinking to have beside a less complex version (like FMT) so that casual players will not be scared and SI Games will be happy with sales. 

But as it's been explained, you can't really have a traditional and "fair" set of difficulty levels without either:

a) creating three separate games with slightly different coding and god knows how many potential bugs/exploits

b) tampering with the existing "one size fits all" code to strip down, nerf or boost some features. Again the consequences would be hard to predict, and the Easy game would still be the current FM, only with FEWER usable features and options. Stuff that, in a way or another, is still in the game and is still NEEDED, or at least useful, to play FM.

Something easier, like FMT, would only be easier at first glance, just like FMT... But if you get a Tactic Creator with only half of the options, that doesn't mean all the previous ones aren't there anymore. They are, but they're locked behind a wall you can't tear down. And at times you may need them.
So the outcome could as well be an "easier" game that's harder to play, because your toolbox is half-empty. Surely it's lighter to carry around, but it won't be as useful.

[forameuss]

5 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But as it's been explained, you can't really have a traditional and "fair" set of difficulty levels without either:

a) creating three separate games with slightly different coding and god knows how many potential bugs/exploits

b) tampering with the existing "one size fits all" code to strip down, nerf or boost some features. Again the consequences would be hard to predict, and the Easy game would still be the current FM, only with FEWER usable features and options. Stuff that, in a way or another, is still in the game and is still NEEDED, or at least useful, to play FM.

Something easier, like FMT, would only be easier at first glance, just like FMT... But if you get a Tactic Creator with only half of the options, that doesn't mean all the previous ones aren't there anymore. They are, but they're locked behind a wall you can't tear down. And at times you may need them.
So the outcome could as well be an "easier" game that's harder to play, because your toolbox is half-empty. Surely it's lighter to carry around, but it won't be as useful.

Absolutely spot on.  Difficulty levels sound like a great idea on the surface, but they don't stand up to scrutiny.  I imagine they've been pitched in SI production meetings, probably discussed at length, but it only takes a few "yeah, but..." comments to completely dismantle them, much like RBKalle has above.  

[tacticsdude]

I think the only difficulty option that is needed is 'easy mode' for new players. Something that prevents your team morale from dropping too low, and like @qDizzy said maybe take a few points off wholesale all opponents skill sattributes. This way new players can get immersed and enjoy the game while learning without getting pummeled.

I want my game to be harder, but not by cheating my team like PES and FIFA do it. I want it to be harder because the AI gives me a smart tactical game that is hard to beat.

[penza]

the thing is you can already create difficulty with the pre-game editor, thus there is nothing to change in the ME. In previous FM's I used to make the AI play a specific formation that suited the Match Engine, if you edit the AI managers 200-200 CA/PA and edit their preferences, you can give a boost of revenue to all your rivals, there are so many ways to make the game easier/harder.

In previous Fms there was a corner exploit so if people wanted to use it they could, many people enjoyed that (yes that corner exploit didnt come on purpose) but thats why most people love fm12 over any other version in most polls (in most french, italian, german forums) you could go in the data folder and edit all the formations so the AI would only play 1 if you found the game to be too difficult, you can mass edit the whole game so that no one gets injured and so on and so forth. 

But I agree, i stopped playing Fm18 since last patch due to free kicks still not being fixed and went back to FM17 (this issue is from the BETA version) but honestly the most fun I have had was Fm12.

In FM Touch, I did ask for a 'add-on' which effectively would reduce AI capabilities (reputation, CA, PA ect) for managers, staff ect or even increase that would be really easy as all you are doing is editing the database .... not the ME

[phnompenhandy]

2 hours ago, penza said:

the thing is you can already create difficulty with the pre-game editor

Well yes, I use the editor to make my challenge harder. However, I think we can assume that a player who's craving some kind of easy mode also has no idea what to do with the editor!

[Kingstontom88]

I think difficulty levels can be affected outside a match, for example signing players, player happiness, less injuries, quicker recovery, quicker tactical familiarity.etc - where it may all fall down is the tactical side of the game in matches. What FM does get right is it doesn't just reward you for going attacking or going defensive - the whole match engine system challenges you to create a system that does work against your opponent. I don't know how an 'easy' or 'difficult' setting could be transferred to the match engine/match days - they'd have to re-write the whole framework...

[RBKalle]

The goal of playing on "easy" is to learn the mechanics of the game in a simplified version of the gameworld. Weaker, fewer or slower enemies, higher HP, lower level enemies, higher rewards etc, depending on the genre.

In FM this can't be done because we're not actually playing the "game" itself (ie, the football match), but we're setting up the AI to play it for us. So all the possible ways to make a faux Easy level in FM are just shortcuts that don't change the core of the matter. Just like all the tricks to make it "harder" with the editor or with the choice of club, reputation and past experience.

If in this Easy level you nerf the AI's CA by 20%, or reduce the injury frequency, the unhappiness level and so on, a poorly set-up tactic will STILL suck... Or, eventually, you'll start to win just because your team's average CA is 50 points higher than the opposition's, so even the most incompetent and clueless human manager will think he has mastered the game... Only to find out he's completely lost in Normal FM.

Football simulations already have that problem where at Beginner level you can win games 10-0 only by virtue of running past AI defenders, and you don't really learn how to properly build up the play, which will come back to bite you in the butt when you start playing like that at Pro and suddenly you can't string two passes together and not even Bale can dribble past an average FB

[Rashidi]

7 hours ago, qDizzy said:

remember guys, if a 14,16 year old gamer or some1 older new to soccer downloaded the demo or something, it would be cool if they can the game also on a easier level; while the pros play ona harder leve

My son was 5 years old when he first played the game, he didn't have any trouble, had a simple way of playing and he did quite well.  I have another friend who struggled cos he thought every bell and whistle in the game is important, he quit. One is a natural gamer cos he kept things simple, the other thought he could simplify the game by understanding everything.  He took a tactic, scouted yellow stars, got an ass man. asked me who to hire, I recommended one to him. Went and set the match to holiday mode...and went to play with his toys. He came back and Liverpool finished second.  And all that effort I put in *hrrrumph*

[Fletty]

No game will ever compare to Soccer Manager 98. Now that was a proper game.

[Delvi]

8 ore fa, penza ha scritto:

the thing is you can already create difficulty with the pre-game editor, thus there is nothing to change in the ME. In previous FM's I used to make the AI play a specific formation that suited the Match Engine, if you edit the AI managers 200-200 CA/PA and edit their preferences, you can give a boost of revenue to all your rivals, there are so many ways to make the game easier/harder.

I've tried to do it many times: I would like to know how to edit properly Managers characteristics in order to have Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti etc. playing with their own style, I think there should be a serious discussion about it, about how to edit the different characteristics and preferences of AI managers in order to have them playing with styles similar to what they have in IRL.

[Svenc]

On 6.2.2018 at 16:26, Rashidi said:

My son was 5 years old when he first played the game, he didn't have any trouble, had a simple way of playing and he did quite well.  I have another friend who struggled cos he thought every bell and whistle in the game is important, he quit. One is a natural gamer cos he kept things simple, the other thought he could simplify the game by understanding everything.  He took a tactic, scouted yellow stars, got an ass man. asked me who to hire, I recommended one to him. Went and set the match to holiday mode...and went to play with his toys. He came back and Liverpool finished second.  And all that effort I put in *hrrrumph*

 

Yeah but tbf, he was likely born with those FM genes in his system. The more natural way to introduce difficulties as to FM has always been those assistants though. Their intelligence is directly tied to AI getting improved anyway, so it all goes two ways. There's still plenty room to expand them too... like optionally hiring proper tactical assistant managers, -- possibly even your own Peter Taylor magic eye for the bargains, the guy who once he's gone you wish you would never have let go.
 

 

[Toonrock]

There already exists difficulty levels in FM.

Want it easy;  Play the game with an exploit/broken tactic.

Want it normal/challenging/hard;  Play it with tactic(s) that actually exists IRL football