Official Football Manager 2015 Pre Release Beta Feedback Thread - Update 15.0.3

[Sky]

I am actually starting to get used to the tactics screen. I decided to give it a chance and use it as SI intended. I still don't think removing player info from the pitch area was a good idea, it did not 'improve' the visual aspect and took away information without offering anything back. I find it quite easy and convenient to change player roles in the new tactics screen. The drop down menus explain every aspect of the role very clearly although this probably could have been done just as well on the tactical pitch area. The drop down menus for picking players in the starting XI is quite convenient; by default, it sorts by role suitability followed by condition. Which are the two main things that I look for when choosing the lineup anyways. And for someone who picks the same team most of the time, it's actually faster than looking for the players one by one and right clicking them to select.

My biggest gripe is that the same drop down menu is used for picking subs as well. This doesn't work for me because I like to pick my subs in order of GK, defender, midfielder, forward, and although I know you can customize the dropdown menu sorting order, it uses the same order as picking your starting XI which I dont' want to mess up. So currently I use the tactics screen to pick my starters, then switch back to the squad screen where my players are sorted by position to pick my subs. I'm not sure if its possible to set the sort order differently for picking starting players and subs but it would be great for me.

[the_gaffa]

Does anyone actually pick their team from the tactics screen??? it's a nightmare.

I'm persevering with it but it's not an enjoyable experience! Lots of scrolling involved just to do simple things. Much preferred that why it was in FM14.

[akkm]

The signing on fees seem crazy high...just had depay demand 7m for a 24m deal and agent 5m ?!!

[ianscousemac]

The signing on fees seem crazy high...just had depay demand 7m for a 24m deal and agent 5m ?!!

Fully agree. Seem huge compared to fm 14

[matt9t]

I do wonder if a few of the changes are designed for people who've never played it before. The whole UI feels a bit dumbed down to me. Like having a strong focus on player roles in the tactics screen (do any of us 'veterans' need to be told what position a player is good in?) and the way that they've tucked a lot of the more nitty gritty player info away behind closed doors (or menu's)

[Glenn Wakeford]

Oh and does anyone know if you can get something similar to the old player season stats box back? down the bottom of player profile. I miss knowing how many assists my players have and how they do in cups, league, international etc

Go to a player profile and select 'Overview' -> 'Attributes'.

If you like you can set this page to the the default landing page for players - this option is found at 'FM' -> 'Preferences' -> 'Interface' -> Player Screen Landing Page -> Set to Attributes.

[Sky]

I won't argue against making the game more streamlined towards newcomers, and "modernizing" the UI to keep up with the times. I tried FMC for the first time last night and was horrified at the interface. I couldn't believe that I used to play the old CM/FM games and it looked like that, and with so many critical features omitted. Things like team talks and tactic familiarity have become necessities for me, I guess I just evolved with the times.

But with that said, even though I supported my club for decades I can't say for sure that i know every player's role familiarity. The tactic screen is designed so you dont have to click on a player and check his positions tab to see if he is suitable for a certain role. Same for the circles; in previous FMs i had to click on a player to check his condition and fitness, now i can just hover over the circles.

[matt9t]

I mean the box down the bottom that was similar to career stats in history only more detailed and broken down in to non-competitive, league, cup, international and had goals, assists, red cards, yellow cards, average rating etc I can't find anything akin to this yet and i feel really disconnected with my players, i'm just skating through not knowing what's going on

[RobertPage]

I have a slight concern over the amount of yellow cards being handed out. I play a high pressing closing down game with 'stay on feet' also selected and i'm finding my players are picking up a hell of a lot yellow cards. I expect the foul count to be pretty high as i'm pressing hard but with my players being asked to stand i feel the foul count and yellow card count may be a bit high.

Sakho - 14 apps, 10 yellow

Flannagan - 8(1) Apps, 5 yellow, 1 red

Enrique - 9(4) Apps, 5 yellow, 1 red

Lucas - 13(3) Apps, 5 yellow

Moreno -11(1) Apps, 4 yellow

Lovren - 10 Apps, 3 yellow

Skrtel - 13(1) Apps, 3 yellow

Johnson - 10 apps, 3 yellow

(more players who are on 2 or less yellows)

These are all basically defensive that you expect to pick up cards along the way, but although i haven't got anything to compare it with (which is why i haven't posted it as a bug). It just feels too much even though i am playing a pressing game.

[matt9t]

But with that said, even though I supported my club for decades I can't say for sure that i know every player's role familiarity. The tactic screen is designed so you dont have to click on a player and check his positions tab to see if he is suitable for a certain role. Same for the circles; in previous FMs i had to click on a player to check his condition and fitness, now i can just hover over the circles.

A lot of people seem to be saying that but I don;t get it, If a DMC has high tackling, positioning etc, and awful passing , chances are he's no Deep lying playmaker. If my striker is all pace, finishing and off the ball and nothing else...i know he's clearly a poacher? I join a team, look through my players and just remember what they're good at and what they're not, is that weird or something?

[aat91]

I don't mean to be so rude and negative but honestly, why change things that are not broken?

- Tactic board

- Searching for players

The Promise bar is a good idea, but its not working properly. Chris Smalling Asked that i accept a bid from chelsea, and asked to leave. Chelsea didn't submit a bid so i accepted another offer then he said he didn't want to leave so yeah i kept him, when i go to the promise tab there is a bar indicating that smalling is unhappy because i didn't allow him to leave. HE ASKED ME TO NOT LEAVE

[matt9t]

I then pick all my teams and make all my subs based on Condition and nothing else because I know what they're good at and what they're not but I can;t see condition at a glance, I just have some weird circle telling me what I already know

[Cruisey]

Playing FM 2015 Beta,

Well this must be a bug or terrible design. From the Reserve and u18 squad screens you can not see fixtures for that team. You have to click on schedule and then click on u21 fixtures? On FM 2010 which was the last proper FM I played you did not have to use an extra click or go away from the squad screen like this.

[matt9t]

I mean the box down the bottom that was similar to career stats in history only more detailed and broken down in to non-competitive, league, cup, international and had goals, assists, red cards, yellow cards, average rating etc I can't find anything akin to this yet and i feel really disconnected with my players, i'm just skating through not knowing what's going on

Ahh wait I found it!!! it's down the bottom when u click history! Shame it's an extra click away nowadays but oh well, at least I've found it

[cleaner475]

I then pick all my teams and make all my subs based on Condition and nothing else because I know what they're good at and what they're not but I can;t see condition at a glance, I just have some weird circle telling me what I already know

Why not just insert the 'Condition' column?

[matt9t]

Why not just insert the 'Condition' column?

I have condition column but i mean making changes, so I'll scroll down to bench, see i have a top player in good nick, then i have to scroll back up to see who i want to drop him in for. I wanna just drop him on the pitch, no scrolling about

[matt9t]

condition on the pitch would be much more useful. I could see the condition of my bench-squad at the same time as my picked 11

[Joethe147]

The amount of times a team change is made before a match, only for the game to reverse or forget my changes once I get to the match is infuriating. Anyone else having this issue? When I get to the match, I end up with the team lineup that was in place before I made changes. So, so irritating.

[matt9t]

The amount of times a team change is made before a match, only for the game to reverse or forget my changes once I get to the match is infuriating. Anyone else having this issue? When I get to the match, I end up with the team lineup that was in place before I made changes. So, so irritating.

that's weird, are you making changes to a tactic that's not actually selected? I dunno how that works, i just tend to set up one tactic "and let the opposition try to find a way to stop us"

[dsch]

I have condition column but i mean making changes, so I'll scroll down to bench, see i have a top player in good nick, then i have to scroll back up to see who i want to drop him in for. I wanna just drop him on the pitch, no scrolling about

But you can still do that, drag a player from the list to a position on the pitch. I just tried it.

Edit: Oh, nevermind. I see what you mean now.

[spiker311]

The fact that the entire team gets unhappy for almost anything makes the game quite unplayable. It's hard to know if you lose the games because your tactics doesn't work or if you lose the games because the players ignore your instructions because they hate you.

Interesting. I started a thread about this last week but it has since slipped out of sight. Seems like there are more severe issues with the game at the moment though. If someone could put together an objective experiment to test for this, I'm sure it'd be really interesting.

[False 9]

I don't know if this is the right place ot put it as I don't know if it is a bug but.... http://gyazo.com/f400450c43183e790f96a0b969cb72f2

[forameuss]

I don't know if this is the right place ot put it as I don't know if it is a bug but.... http://gyazo.com/f400450c43183e790f96a0b969cb72f2

It very well could be, but needs more context than that to work out what's wrong. Assuming you've had a pretty mental schedule to cause this to happen, but I thought the Champions League sat at the top of the tree in terms of priority of fixtures.

[HaroldHammond]

I don't really want to start a save until these are fixed but i'm absolutely desperate to get going!

Considering a mid level champions league side save, with the idea of conquering Europe in the future. Considering teams like Roma, Anderlecht, Basel, PSV.

Now i'm not sure about how the bad goalkeeping and defending ties in with these types of teams, i would imagine there would still be some hiccups but is it as bad that it effects the higher up teams now?

What would i miss out on if i started my long term save now, how drastic do you think the database changes will be on release day that i would miss out on?

Is it worth me starting now and just braving the ME faults and then on release day my save would just be improved? Hesitant at the moment to say the least.

[webeto]

I don't really want to start a save until these are fixed but i'm absolutely desperate to get going!

Considering a mid level champions league side save, with the idea of conquering Europe in the future. Considering teams like Roma, Anderlecht, Basel, PSV.

Now i'm not sure about how the bad goalkeeping and defending ties in with these types of teams, i would imagine there would still be some hiccups but is it as bad that it effects the higher up teams now?

What would i miss out on if i started my long term save now, how drastic do you think the database changes will be on release day that i would miss out on?

Is it worth me starting now and just braving the ME faults and then on release day my save would just be improved? Hesitant at the moment to say the least.

Yes it is present at all levels

I would say 4 out of every 5 games I play either has a terrible own goal or a terrible goalkeeping mistake, and I play a hotseat game as Man Utd and Genoa

[HaroldHammond]

Yes it is present at all levels

I would say 4 out of every 5 games I play either has a terrible own goal or a terrible goalkeeping mistake, and I play a hotseat game as Man Utd and Genoa

not worth me starting now then Web?

[forameuss]

Yes it is present at all levels

I would say 4 out of every 5 games I play either has a terrible own goal or a terrible goalkeeping mistake, and I play a hotseat game as Man Utd and Genoa

And yet not particularly present for me at any point so far in the save game.

not worth me starting now then Web?

You're not going to get a representative answer on here. I'd say start it, others say don't. It's personal preference, and no-one knows what bugs are going to be fixed and how those fixes are going to affect the game.

[dsch]

not worth me starting now then Web?

I would say go for it. If you're waiting for a perfectly bug- and annoyance- free match engine, you'd never play! It's enjoyable enough as it is.

[webeto]

I would say go for it. If you're waiting for a perfectly bug- and annoyance- free match engine, you'd never play! It's enjoyable enough as it is.

Yeah, I didn't say don't play it, I just answered his question

Hasn't stopped me playing it (I love the game), but it is making me cry almost every game

[Cruisey]

No Fixtures shown from Reserve and U18 squad Screen??

Playing FM 2015 Beta,

Well this must be a bug or terrible design. From the Reserve and u18 squad screens you can not see fixtures for that team. You have to click on schedule and then click on u21 fixtures? On FM 2010 which was the last proper FM I played you did not have to use an extra click or go away from the squad screen like this.

Can someone please answer this? its so frustrating to play with no fixtures list on your u21 and u18 squads. I like to help in pre season with them arranging friendlies etc and getting them organised and this really slows it down and makes it annoying. Surely this will be fixed for proper release?

[cleaner475]

No Fixtures shown from Reserve and U18 squad Screen??

Playing FM 2015 Beta,

Well this must be a bug or terrible design. From the Reserve and u18 squad screens you can not see fixtures for that team. You have to click on schedule and then click on u21 fixtures? On FM 2010 which was the last proper FM I played you did not have to use an extra click or go away from the squad screen like this.

Can someone please answer this? its so frustrating to play with no fixtures list on your u21 and u18 squads. I like to help in pre season with them arranging friendlies etc and getting them organised and this really slows it down and makes it annoying. Surely this will be fixed for proper release?

I already answered in your locked thread. It's not a bug it's just the way they designed it this year. Once you get used to it it's nothing more than a small inconvience, hopefully in next years game they can put it in both the Schedule and U21 and U18 menus.

[Jleadermaynard]

As this isn't a bug I've been instructed to repost this (section of a larger bugs post) here. I'm sure others have raised this before, but to re-emphasise it here:

I still have a concern, present in the last two editions of FM (it seemed less problematic in 2012, for some reason), that player development in the game is not being modelled realistically. It really seems like the FM player development model cannot capture, and would never produce players of the mould of (for example): Raheem Sterling (very rapid early career development), Rickie Lambert/Yaya Toure (late career development), or Nabil Bentaleb/Ryan Mason (development to a solid player purely through academy/U21s matches). The game places a huge weight, as far as I can tell, on first team appearances. Even there, development is often barely perceptible - I've been using 18 year old Emerson Hyndman, at Fulham, who has a 4*-5* potential ability rating at this level, in the first team for almost a whole season, and he hasn't had a single attribute increase by a point. This does not seem realistic - lots of high potential players increase really noticeably in the course of a season, let alone by one point in one attribute. But more importantly, without first team appearances progress is achingly slow. This is also not realistic - players like Bentaleb or Mason have improved to first team standard (albeit not amazing first team standard) through the academy/reserve teams, they haven't needed 20+ first team games a season to achieve this. And the game continues, as with previous editions of FM, to show basically all players of 25+ in age as having achieved their maximum potential. This is also not realistic, many players make marked improvements in their later careers. Loans used to rarely make much of an impact too on player development - though I haven't used enough of these under scrutiny to tell if this is an issue in 2015.

Maybe not all of this can be rectified in this edition, but the weighting of general progression vs. progression from first team appearances (or weighting a small number of first team appearances highly, beyond which the marginal value tails off) surely could be changed (and would be the easiest way to remedy the other problems to a degree). I don't know if something changed post FM2012, but in the recent editions of the game I have found player development very frustrating and unfulfilling and the burden placed on first team slots unfair. This is a shame, as buying high prospect youngsters, giving them a few initial chances in the first team, and seeing them develop (or not) felt a very enjoyable part of earlier FMs. Anything that can be done to make this a bit more dynamic, noticeable, and realistic would be a huge gain if it can be done.

[Cruisey]

As this isn't a bug I've been instructed to repost this (section of a larger bugs post) here. I'm sure others have raised this before, but to re-emphasise it here:

I still have a concern, present in the last two editions of FM (it seemed less problematic in 2012, for some reason), that player development in the game is not being modelled realistically. It really seems like the FM player development model cannot capture, and would never produce players of the mould of (for example): Raheem Sterling (very rapid early career development), Rickie Lambert/Yaya Toure (late career development), or Nabil Bentaleb/Ryan Mason (development to a solid player purely through academy/U21s matches). The game places a huge weight, as far as I can tell, on first team appearances. Even there, development is often barely perceptible - I've been using 18 year old Emerson Hyndman, at Fulham, who has a 4*-5* potential ability rating at this level, in the first team for almost a whole season, and he hasn't had a single attribute increase by a point. This does not seem realistic - lots of high potential players increase really noticeably in the course of a season, let alone by one point in one attribute. But more importantly, without first team appearances progress is achingly slow. This is also not realistic - players like Bentaleb or Mason have improved to first team standard (albeit not amazing first team standard) through the academy/reserve teams, they haven't needed 20+ first team games a season to achieve this. And the game continues, as with previous editions of FM, to show basically all players of 25+ in age as having achieved their maximum potential. This is also not realistic, many players make marked improvements in their later careers. Loans used to rarely make much of an impact too on player development - though I haven't used enough of these under scrutiny to tell if this is an issue in 2015.

Maybe not all of this can be rectified in this edition, but the weighting of general progression vs. progression from first team appearances (or weighting a small number of first team appearances highly, beyond which the marginal value tails off) surely could be changed (and would be the easiest way to remedy the other problems to a degree). I don't know if something changed post FM2012, but in the recent editions of the game I have found player development very frustrating and unfulfilling and the burden placed on first team slots unfair. This is a shame, as buying high prospect youngsters, giving them a few initial chances in the first team, and seeing them develop (or not) felt a very enjoyable part of earlier FMs. Anything that can be done to make this a bit more dynamic, noticeable, and realistic would be a huge gain if it can be done.

Think you posted this in wrong place again, this is my thread on fixtures not being shown in the relevant squad lists! And apparantly not a bug. Well I just paid 30 quid for a game which has this big inconvenience as I use the Reserve and youth teams a lot. And to be 2 clicks away from it is very annoying. Even in FM 2005 we had fixture lists for Reserve and youth teams. Now its only viewable from the 1st team squad??

[FootballTrainer]

I´m running the game on a massive laptop but still finding it hard to get the game speed faster. The issue when first watching player profiles is fixed, as I mentioned before. But the game processes game time just a little bit too slow and I read SI are going to fix this issue. I was just wondering how SI will fix this and when?

[Callum-atfc]

not worth me starting now then Web?

All personal preference, me personally I'm not playing until they sort the stupid scores out i had 4 4-4 draws in first 5 games I then went on to win 7-3 8-2 and lose 5-3 so unrealistic and can't enjoy it! But I know they will sort it and appreciate a lot of work goes into it

[cleaner475]

Think you posted this in wrong place again, this is my thread on fixtures not being shown in the relevant squad lists! And apparantly not a bug. Well I just paid 30 quid for a game which has this big inconvenience as I use the Reserve and youth teams a lot. And to be 2 clicks away from it is very annoying. Even in FM 2005 we had fixture lists for Reserve and youth teams. Now its only viewable from the 1st team squad??

This is the feedback thread, not your thread. It's not a big inconvenience at all. It just located on a different screen that's all, it's annoying sure, but hardly game breaking.

[Cruisey]

This is the feedback thread, not your thread. It's not a big inconvenience at all. It just located on a different screen that's all, it's annoying sure, but hardly game breaking.

Yeah just realised. And it is game breaking if you use it all the time.

[cleaner475]

Yeah just realised. And it is game breaking if you use it all the time.

Hardly. I also use it very regularly. I monitor my youth teams all the time, putting together strong sides and organizing reserve fixtures every couple of weeks to keep my first team fit. Like I said it's inconvenient, not game breaking.

Mountains out of molehills.

[bestbrother]

Team Selection Page View

Is awful, absolutely atrocious and not user friendly at all

The old one (being FM14 for example( I had all my players listed, I could then just select their position in a little box and be done with it

This one has drop downs and no players listed until I click the drop down, then im presented with a range of players who can play MC or SC etc... which isnt complete as even though I play AMC in MC, they are not shown in the MC drop down box...

So rather than seeing everyone who is available, im just having to either try to use a filter or custom view (which never saves or hardly ever works when asking to add a new column) OR its a real fiddle

There must be something im missing, but if its like this, its gone back a step for me.

[Cruisey]

Hardly. I also use it very regularly. I monitor my youth teams all the time, putting together strong sides and organizing reserve fixtures every couple of weeks to keep my first team fit. Like I said it's inconvenient, not game breaking.

Mountains out of molehills.

Rubbish. Thats your opinion. In my opinion its game breaking for me. It is such a simple thing to add to the game. And totally shocked its been taken away.

[Cruisey]

Team Selection Page View

Is awful, absolutely atrocious and not user friendly at all

The old one (being FM14 for example( I had all my players listed, I could then just select their position in a little box and be done with it

This one has drop downs and no players listed until I click the drop down, then im presented with a range of players who can play MC or SC etc... which isnt complete as even though I play AMC in MC, they are not shown in the MC drop down box...

So rather than seeing everyone who is available, im just having to either try to use a filter or custom view (which never saves or hardly ever works when asking to add a new column) OR its a real fiddle

There must be something im missing, but if its like this, its gone back a step for me.

I agree. I have not even started on all the things they have taken away form FM 14 for instance which I hardly played as been into my FM 10 so much and still play that one. No idea why the game has to get harder and more un friendly to play.

[cleaner475]

Rubbish. Thats your opinion. In my opinion its game breaking for me. It is such a simple thing to add to the game. And totally shocked its been taken away.

It's not been taken away. It's still there, just in a different place and its hardly difficult to find. Also I'd definitely advise you look up the definition of 'game-breaking'.

[Hit the upright]

Agree with this, solid finishers miss the target far too often.. they would at least hit the targets 8 times out of 10 in a 1 on1

I suspect the problem here is that players in FM find themselves one on one far more often than in real life. High scoring games are already an issue so more one on one chances being scored would make some very high scores indeed, I estimate that I see 3 or 4 per match and sometimes more.

[cleaner475]

Team Selection Page View

Is awful, absolutely atrocious and not user friendly at all

The old one (being FM14 for example( I had all my players listed, I could then just select their position in a little box and be done with it

This one has drop downs and no players listed until I click the drop down, then im presented with a range of players who can play MC or SC etc... which isnt complete as even though I play AMC in MC, they are not shown in the MC drop down box...

So rather than seeing everyone who is available, im just having to either try to use a filter or custom view (which never saves or hardly ever works when asking to add a new column) OR its a real fiddle

There must be something im missing, but if its like this, its gone back a step for me.

I agree with you and a lot of other people have raised this on the previous 32 pages. I can see why they thought they needed a change, afterall the whole UI has been updated, but I think they chose appearance over usability with the new tactics screen. I'm getting used to it already and it's not as frustrating to use as it was when I initially loaded up the Beta, but it's certainly not a change that I agree with.

[Cruisey]

I have just noticed that if you have employed someone to manage the teams you cant at anytime decide to take them over and control them yourself? The last game I properly played was FM 12. And I only play FM 10 now so this is all a bit new to me? I take it I have to sack them as managers and just have coaches in charge of the teams to decide to take over when I want to form time to time?

[cleaner475]

I have just noticed that if you have employed someone to manage the teams you can at anytime decide to take them over and control them yourself? The last game I properly played was FM 12. And I only play FM 10 now so this is all a bit new to me? I take it I have to sack them as managers and just have coaches in charge of the teams to decide to take over when I want to form time to time?

Yes that's correct

[Cruisey]

It's not been taken away. It's still there, just in a different place and its hardly difficult to find. Also I'd definitely advise you look up the definition of 'game-breaking'.

I dont need to look it up. I know it means you cant play the game! And Im in love with Fm 10 and FM 12. So yes this is game breaking to me as those other games are better and I enjoy them more. You understand now? I advise you to listen a bit more.

[HUNT3R]

I dont need to look it up. I know it means you cant play the game! And Im in love with Fm 10 and FM 12. So yes this is game breaking to me as those other games are better and I enjoy them more. You understand now? I advise you to listen a bit more.

The game works. You don't like the change and that's fine. That's what the feedback thread is for. Calling it game-breaking is hyperbolic and wrong though. Your opinion about it has been aired.

Now stop the bickering, both of you.

[BossPenguin]

I dont need to look it up. I know it means you cant play the game! And Im in love with Fm 10 and FM 12. So yes this is game breaking to me as those other games are better and I enjoy them more. You understand now? I advise you to listen a bit more.

I think the point is an extra clicks inconvenience does not stop the game from working, it's just less streamlined to your preferences. You prefer how it worked in the FM10 & FM12, that is fair enough, but their may be other changes that can compensate for that as you progress through the game.

It's also worth mentioning whilst it may seem like a simple thing to fix in a game like FM it may not be as simple as you think. In previous years I've seen simple changes in one area cause unforeseen bugs in other area's.

I'm sure your feedback will be taken on board, but I imagine the SI team are dealing with a lot of issues, and obviously the bigger more game breaking ones (and there are more serious ones than a clicks inconvenience) will have to take priority.

[Ben Delat]

So..As far as I'm concerned this game is a complete and utter regression on an already flawed FM14

What's Changed?

Strikers still miss too many easy chances to attempt to compensate for how many chances are created, in this it fails.

Defenders still can't defend crosses/set-pieces

Crossing is still bad, too many look like shots and fly over the bar.

Opposition still attacks the same way as ever, hyper fast, long balls and through balls that always split defense.

Goalkeepers still make far too many errors

Woodwork is still hit far too often

Defense still makes far too many mistakes, whether that's wayward passing or simply ignoring the ball.

Too many own goals.

These are some of the big ones in the match engine that I can think of right now.

All things that were issues with FM14 - so nothing has changed here.

SI has done a Fifa, they've gave us the same game, but with a new interface.

Except, the interface is worse. I like the shiny new search bar, I even like the drop down menu's and even the sidebar.

Not however, the tactics screen.

Why is there no info - why is adding subs so annoying..

It goes on and on.

tl;dr

This game is a Regression, that is all, there are very few meaningful ways outside of the superficial that improve upon this game, but far too many meaningful things that regress the game.

My two cents.

Really hope this is just a case of the Beta.