Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[KingCanary]

I'm assuming this is a bug and I'll raise a report but I just had a goal VAR reviewed reportedly for offside, directly from a corner. Obviously wasn't disallowed but I think it would be pretty much impossible to be offside straight from a corner?

Edited February 21 by KingCanary

[RDF Tactics]

Sorry to post this here - it's not totally self-promotion haha but you can count this as feedback too.

I remember being a part of tactical conversations here, talking about why people use aggressive tactics and how it is the only way to succeed in FM. I've always said FM is what you make it, sort of, when it comes to tactics. The option to use aggressive "OP" tactic is there but there is always another way to play if you're interested in being a reacted manager (react to the opponents, looking to expose their weaknesses and negate their strengths).

There was also a discussion about content creators only making said tactics. So, I did create this in-depth video about how to be reactive in the game and how you can approach the game in a more defensive-minded manner.

The feedback is that FM can be great with their analytical data from matches. You have very detailed information there for you (most opt to not use it). From being able to see what zone (left, centre or right) in the attacking third players receive passes to where players are dribbling when attacking (towards the flank or towards goal). Even with a decent eye, you can see certain roles teams are using simply by using the analytical data in matches. The video does showcase what you can do with this information to play well against your opponents (you won't win 100% of the time).

I hope you don't mind me posting this here - I do feel like it relates to some of the tactical feedback the game gets here. And it might be easier for some to digest with visual content.
 

 

[jc1]

Pre season and my AS wants me to play three 16 years old in the next friendly game, erm I have a 1st team squad of 24 and these guys are only starting their careers and are nowhere near 1st team ready, why???

[Davienene]

3 hours ago, lloyd1990 said:

Yeah this what I am struggling with. There is no differentiation of AI playing styles within the current FM24 ME - a manager who favours route one football (e.g Everton, Stoke) has more possession, completed passes, a higher pass completion rate than a manager who favours a more possession orientated playing style (Man City, Arsenal etc.). That for me kills any form of realism. Anyway:

FM24 Feedback

Positives

• Positional Play - Love seeing my IWB actually tuck into midfield to form a 3-2 with my DM to help create a box midfield. It doesn't seem complete as I would like my CM-A (Havertz) and F9 (Trossard) to rotate positions during play or IF (Martinelli) and PF-S (Jesus). I don't mean the swap positions option in player instructions. 
• IFB-D - Really love this role to create a 3 at the back. Again it doesn't feel complete as there should be a IFB-S role where he can overlap with forward runs but a fantastic addition 

Negatives

• Pressing - The lack of pressing in the final third allows AI teams to rack up an unrealistic high pass completion and possession regardless of player ability, especially in a 3 or 5 at the back system. I think this is the biggest issue with this game as this creates issues with playing style and data. In FM24 all AI teams will have an insane press 4-6 OPPDA. Not all teams press high in real life. Free kicks and goal kicks players don't man mark (even with team/player/opposition instructions set to prevent this). In real life FBs/WBs back up the press by stepping forward to man mark. Something is missing. Strikers don't press high. Frustrating as it's not realistic.
• AI Playing styles - Regardless of a manager's playing style there are only 2 active AI playing styles in FM24 tiki taka at the back when they want to keep the ball (and they will keep it) and gegenpressing when you have the ball.  
• Data - An offside shot should not count towards xG. No differentiation in OPPDA -  in my current game the OPPDA is between 4.35-5.45. Real life: In Arsenal's recent match 5-0 win away at Burnley - Arsenal had OPPDA 8.3 and Burnley had 17.2. Pass completion was 88% Arsenal and 76% Burnley. Possession Arsenal 60% and Burnley 40%. The data in FM24 for OPPDA and pass completion is really not good enough to create a realistic football gaming experience. 
• Set Piece Creator - I like the idea but I don't like the new design 
• AI Decision Making - It's non-existent. Elite teams not playing their best players for a cup final or big league games  The squad building is severely lacking after a couple of seasons.
• Press Conferences - This is beyond outdated and unrealistic. Would Arteta get asked about random players from different teams being transfer listed before a UCL final? No. 

Overall

Pressing > Playing Style > Data

Pressing is causing issues in the game in regards to playing style and data  I want to play against low block teams who have a OPPDA of 15+. Positional play is a game changing addition for me but it's not complete. Despite the upcoming final update, I will probably go back to FM23 because the ME felt more realistic compared to this edition. In future FMs, I would love to see a new role for the goalkeeper (Ball Playing Goalkeeper) to really help with build up and to break a high press to act as a +1 (Raya, Ederson etc.). Finally, SI please understand less is more - before adding new data metrics check to see the current ones are working correctly and are realistic. Feels like 1 step forward (positional play) and 2 steps back (ME, AI).  2.5 out 5. Disappointing.

On press conferences,,A lot of random questions nowadays IRL, wouldn't be surprised 

[tezcatlipoca665]

15 minutes ago, Davienene said:

On press conferences,,A lot of random questions nowadays IRL, wouldn't be surprised 

It's taken to extremes though. I was asked about having reported transfer interest in some random 16 year old player I'd never even heard of before. PA was around 115 or something too, so he wasn't even a wonderkid or whatever. It'd be great to have a 'who?' response option or something. Having 'we all know his ability' is a pretty hilarious option.

[zeza]

2 horas atrás, jc1 disse:

AS wants me to play three 16 years old in the next friendly game

Maybe because it's a friendly?

[Kane10]

Would be cool to have a release date for winter updates. I am planning to start a new career for a while but just waiting to have the updated rosters and player attributes. This update is a big part of the game, some even consider it as a second release. Yet there is no info about when it is coming. Honestly why not update the rosters and attributes more frequently? 

[jc1]

1 hour ago, zeza said:

Maybe because it's a friendly?

A friendly for 1st team squad, not for some young 16 yr olds from the U 18 squad . I have players valued in their millions who need match sharpness, young guys on £400 a week play their own pre season friendlies. 

[santy001]

6 hours ago, Kane10 said:

Honestly why not update the rosters and attributes more frequently? 

We give our time up freely as researchers for the rating of player attributes and changes that go into them, along with submitting transfer requests etc. When it then comes to testing data etc as well, I imagine this forms a couple of substantial reasons why there aren't more frequent attribute changes. 

[Mancunianets]

Hey everyone! I’m not sure I write in the right topic but… Is it possible to add Ukrainian language to the game? There is a big fan base of FM and we have started to translate the game by ourselves. It is already available for downloading in Workshop of Steam. It is not complete on 100% yet but we’re working on it.

[zeza]

15 horas atrás, jc1 disse:

friendly for 1st team squad, not for some young 16 yr olds from the U 18 squad

Are you filtering your Squad in the Tactics screen to only 1st team? If you have U21/U18 checked they are eligible to be picked to your team.

[jc1]

4 hours ago, zeza said:

Are you filtering your Squad in the Tactics screen to only 1st team? If you have U21/U18 checked they are eligible to be picked to your team.

My AM is suggesting we play these young lads in a pre season friendly and they are not part of the 1st team squad, I'm just curious why he's doing this as we have 24 1st team players registered but I'll have a look at what you are suggesting.
I've had a look and only my 1st team are ticked to play in either friendlies/games as I had thought, which makes it weird why he's suggesting players not in the squad for these games.

Edited February 22 by jc1

[wazzaflow10]

On 09/02/2024 at 14:08, santy001 said:

The biggest issue for me though is this only really stands out if you forget or don't know that the difference between 1 and 20 isn't that big for any given attribute.

Question about this - when doing research for Stoke are there guidelines (in a similar vein as jumping reach) for where attributes should fit in based on league level? Obviously some physical attributes would be unbounded.

Also along those lines though - it seems somewhat counterproductive for the difference between values to be so minuscule. I think this is where maybe some people feel that attributes don't matter.

I'd be curious if SI implements any sort of system where the jump from 1 to 2 is greater than the jump from 2 to 3 and 2 to 3 is greater than 3 to 4 etc. Then between say 5 to 15 the jumps are relatively small but noticeable enough that there is a difference between 5 and 15. Finally the jump from 19 to 20 is larger than the jump from 18 to 19 and so on down to 15. I think that would give you more of a sense of elite players are capable of elite things while still giving you a squishy interchangeable/replaceable middle class of players. If 20 isn't all that different to 1 then there's bound to be no difference between 20 and 15 when in reality having a world class attribute should be very distinctive even from the upper echelon of players. It doesn't have to be for every attribute. Some could be more linear like physicals while others could be more pronounced like technicals.

[Matej]

This topic is so one way street. It would be much better if SI can explain some things. Two heads are smarter then one. After all, its their game.

[makavali]

I just hate how easy this game becomes at some points. Accepted Real Madrid's offer in my somewhat of a journeyman save and it's just stupidly easy. 

Before I start getting the default replies - I'm using a medium-intensity tactic which I've created myself and I'm doing everything I can to not make my experience so dull. Yes, I know that I'm incredibly good at the game and it's my own fault for using Real Madrid. Yes, I know that you need to pick a team in the 33rd Scottish tier, play without attributes, watch full matches, drink an onion smoothie every morning before I load up the game, etc etc blablabla to make this game enjoyable for an experienced player. 

Even then, it's just stupid how easy you can dominate. It's stupid how often you see huge scorelines. It's stupid how often you see an early goal (before the 3rd min). It literally feels unplayable. Luckily, games on the road against strong teams are still tricky, but it just shows that there's no balance at all. 

Just look at my results once I got into gear. I don't care if you have MSN on steroids or a front three of Mbappe, prime R9 and Pep's era Messi, you don't win every game away in La Liga with a margin of 2-4 goals. It's just not possible. 



As a cherry on top of the cake, in this save, I won the treble (league, cup, conference) in my 3rd season with Cercle friggin Brugge. Make it make sense. 

Also, the more you play, the more you notice how bad the match engine is. You see like 5-7 of the same goals on repeat bar the odd banger or a MessiAgainstGetafe-esque solo run by your winger which, sadly, happens way too often. I mean it's still better than the stupid 5-5 goal fest we had with the 'great' match engine, but it's just so bleh. So, so, so disappointed in this year's game and I've never been disappointed before. 

Edited February 22 by makavali

[g1nh0]

36 minutes ago, makavali said:

I just hate how easy this game becomes at some points. Accepted Real Madrid's offer in my somewhat of a journeyman save and it's just stupidly easy. 

Before I start getting the default replies - I'm using a medium-intensity tactic which I've created myself and I'm doing everything I can to not make my experience so dull. Yes, I know that I'm incredibly good at the game and it's my own fault for using Real Madrid. Yes, I know that you need to pick a team in the 33rd Scottish tier, play without attributes, watch full matches, drink an onion smoothie every morning before I load up the game, etc etc blablabla to make this game enjoyable for an experienced player. 

Even then, it's just stupid how easy you can dominate. It's stupid how often you see huge scorelines. It's stupid how often you see an early goal (before the 3rd min). It literally feels unplayable. Luckily, games on the road against strong teams are still tricky, but it just shows that there's no balance at all. 

Just look at my results once I got into gear. I don't care if you have MSN on steroids or a front three of Mbappe, prime R9 and Pep's era Messi, you don't win every game away in La Liga with a margin of 2-4 goals. It's just not possible. 



As a cherry on top of the cake, in this save, I won the treble (league, cup, conference) in my 3rd season with Cercle friggin Brugge. Make it make sense. 

Also, the more you play, the more you notice how bad the match engine is. You see like 5-7 of the same goals on repeat bar the odd banger or a MessiAgainstGetafe-esque solo run by your winger which, sadly, happens way too often. I mean it's still better than the stupid 5-5 goal fest we had with the 'great' match engine, but it's just so bleh. So, so, so disappointed in this year's game and I've never been disappointed before. 

It really doesn't help the game is tactically so broken this year too, with a lot of unrealistic tactics miraculously working whilst anything with a degree of logic in comparison performs much weaker. 

There's no balance at all so far to the game this year. Hoping the patch can at least make it playable going forwards, but based on the circumstances of both the game and the year it has fallen within, sadly I don't hold much optimism, especially the fact there is so much wrong with the game it will be difficult to know what to end up prioritising.

It would be nice to actually know what SI have been working on for this last patch too, acknowledging the real problematic areas and what they are choosing to prioritise.

[Rodrigogc]

42 minutos atrás, makavali disse:

I just hate how easy this game becomes at some points. Accepted Real Madrid's offer in my somewhat of a journeyman save and it's just stupidly easy. 

Before I start getting the default replies - I'm using a medium-intensity tactic which I've created myself and I'm doing everything I can to not make my experience so dull. Yes, I know that I'm incredibly good at the game and it's my own fault for using Real Madrid. Yes, I know that you need to pick a team in the 33rd Scottish tier, play without attributes, watch full matches, drink an onion smoothie every morning before I load up the game, etc etc blablabla to make this game enjoyable for an experienced player. 
 

Just the fact that it is easy to manage Real Madrid is already something to raise concern. People say "If you want a hard game, play LLM", but why managing big clubs should be easy ? In my view it is harder to stay at the top than to get to the top. Tuchel managed Mainz just like Klopp and got to the top, but now look how hard he found managing Bayern. Xavi won La Liga and got sacked from Barcelona already. 

It's like in the business world. Managing a large corporation is easier than managing a small business ? I don't think so. Every level has its own challenges, unfortunately in FM if you want challenge you have to pick bad teams, which I don't like because I like managing good players who will execute what I expect from them. 

[janrzm]

This is the kind of thing that kills a save for me. Third season of my save, and I notice AI team Anderlecht have only registered 15 players in their squad. Despite being "Rich" and having an abundance of youth talent they could have promoted to the first team squad. "I was going to buy one of their players but I couldn't do it to them........" said no football manager ever. 

I've said it before, if AI teams can't squad build, if they can't rotate, if they can't improve players then your achievements in game are essentially meaningless. The entire game is built on the back of this, if your AI opponents are continuously regressing from the moment you start a game, it's got to be an issue.   

This just has to be better in FM25, I'm kind of at the stage where I just want the features that are already in the game to be optimised, to work as intended, to be polished. I don't want to have to turn a blind eye to things, or to be in a position where I have to "dumb down" my decision making because my human advantage is so great that you can out manoeuvre the games AI at every turn and all that does is expedite the end of a save. 

Frustrating, but it makes me more determined than ever to keep identifying bugs, flaws, weaknesses and areas of the game that need improvement.

Edited February 22 by janrzm

[chris72]

They gave us minor update but no major update?

 

hopefully the next game will be better

[Mobius]

4 hours ago, Matej said:

This topic is so one way street. It would be much better if SI can explain some things. Two heads are smarter then one. After all, its their game.

I didn't realise actually until recently, that you can see where the people who work on the game have posted directly via the Developers Posts button

https://community.sigames.com/discover/235/

So you can occasionally see them engage, or acknowledge bugs at least.

[santy001]

5 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Question about this - when doing research for Stoke are there guidelines (in a similar vein as jumping reach) for where attributes should fit in based on league level? Obviously some physical attributes would be unbounded.

Also along those lines though - it seems somewhat counterproductive for the difference between values to be so minuscule. I think this is where maybe some people feel that attributes don't matter.

There are no guidelines for individual attributes outside of jumping reach, because jumping reach is inclusive of a players height. There's a loose framework in the background for where overall teams would be expected to be in the hierarchy of football (if I submit my Stoke squad in a comparable position to a top PL side then clearly I've gone wrong somewhere) but we're free to make any submission we wish. These are then subjected to the scrutiny of our head researcher, if the head researcher has no objections then the QA team get to see that data and after that any additional testers. 

When it comes to actual attributes though, many people are perhaps guilty of thinking more along the lines of a Finishing of 1 = only get a shot on target <5% of the time and a Finishing of 20 would be like 80% of the time. Higher attributes help of course, but the overall spread is where things are more important and crucially how you set your team up. 

I often times create a role in my sides where there is a deep lying playmaker who has to do nothing other than distribute the ball usually the two CM's ahead will be the shield and have far less involvement in the attacking set up. In that specific role no one competes with Toni Kroos in that position. I've kept him ambling along in previous saves right until he calls it quits and often times face a serious struggle to replace him to the point I will usually change my tactical approach there (or sign Neymar and put him there for a couple more years if he's available as late career DLP Neymar is also a favourite of mine)

In a very specialised role those high scoring attributes can be the defining aspect, but outside of that it has far less impact. When the creativity and chance creation came from elsewhere in my team this was my first choice right back in my Stoke team that won the PL & CL:

Spoiler

[jc1]

1 hour ago, chris72 said:

They gave us minor update but no major update?

 

hopefully the next game will be better

Been saying that for the last 4 versions of this game,ME has been a mess for a long time, once you get a dominant tactic, the rest us easy and boring. 

[tezcatlipoca665]

2 hours ago, janrzm said:

This is the kind of thing that kills a save for me. Third season of my save, and I notice AI team Anderlecht have only registered 15 players in their squad. Despite being "Rich" and having an abundance of youth talent they could have promoted to the first team squad. "I was going to buy one of their players but I couldn't do it to them........" said no football manager ever. 

I've said it before, if AI teams can't squad build, if they can't rotate, if they can't improve players then your achievements in game are essentially meaningless. The entire game is built on the back of this, if your AI opponents are continuously regressing from the moment you start a game, it's got to be an issue.   

This just has to be better in FM25, I'm kind of at the stage where I just want the features that are already in the game to be optimised, to work as intended, to be polished. I don't want to have to turn a blind eye to things, or to be in a position where I have to "dumb down" my decision making because my human advantage is so great that you can out manoeuvre the games AI at every turn and all that does is expedite the end of a save. 

Frustrating, but it makes me more determined than ever to keep identifying bugs, flaws, weaknesses and areas of the game that need improvement.

In my current save game, Girona refused to register Savio at all. Not injured; not suspended - they just didn't bother registering him until December, despite being one of their better players. I'm using Davincids mod too and, while it does force the AI to rotate more, it can't make a difference to AI manager logic, and the AI managers will sometimes just make the weirdest decisions when it comes to squad selection, registration, and transfers/loans.

There's no reason for it to be better in FM25 so long as SI is claiming that AI squad building and rotation are currently working fine as is in FM24 and they're happy with both. There's no plan for it to be improved with the upcoming patch, last I was advised.

[wazzaflow10]

53 minutes ago, santy001 said:

There are no guidelines for individual attributes outside of jumping reach, because jumping reach is inclusive of a players height. There's a loose framework in the background for where overall teams would be expected to be in the hierarchy of football (if I submit my Stoke squad in a comparable position to a top PL side then clearly I've gone wrong somewhere) but we're free to make any submission we wish. These are then subjected to the scrutiny of our head researcher, if the head researcher has no objections then the QA team get to see that data and after that any additional testers.

Ok that's what I expected. Thanks.

54 minutes ago, santy001 said:

When it comes to actual attributes though, many people are perhaps guilty of thinking more along the lines of a Finishing of 1 = only get a shot on target <5% of the time and a Finishing of 20 would be like 80% of the time. Higher attributes help of course, but the overall spread is where things are more important and crucially how you set your team up. 

Right I've actually switched a lot of player comparison to the radar chart when deciding who the better player is or if they're a better fit for what I want to do. Its crude in the sense of understanding all aspects of a player but much easier than trying to figure it out attribute by attribute the style of player. To that end though the attributes that make a player world class or complete donkey in some aspect should stand out. Maybe I don't know enough of the real player attribute spread and the difference the game actually perceives between Leo Messi and Rory Delap (crude example). I don't think there's anything wrong with the game having the right spread of attributes overcome a lack of overall CA.

The overarching point I'm trying to make is I think its fine if attributes are relatively close between certain values in the game. That's pretty reflective of what is in real life. There's less of a difference between a League One Player and a Championship player than there is between a yo-yo PL club and Man City or Liverpool.

I don't think the game should allow your player to perform consistently at the same level as this guy. Not offensively anyway. I don't think you're claiming that. But the game should recognize there's replaceable players, serviceable players and then there's elite players and make much more of a distinction between the sets imo. The tactics absolutely matter. Getting more out of players than their attributes is part of the game and your duty as manager but that should only take you so far. You don't have to have world class players at every position but certainly players that meet the minimum threshold of what's considered league standard. Maybe what I expect the standard to be is too high. It's not that your guy is a bad player, just one I would expect to be exposed at a certain level.

Please tell me if I'm completely off base though. Its just a perception I have that the talent is too squished - there's a difference but not nearly enough that you can't overcome it with average players and a solid tactic at the highest level.

Spoiler

 

[Mitja]

8 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Just the fact that it is easy to manage Real Madrid is already something to raise concern. People say "If you want a hard game, play LLM", but why managing big clubs should be easy ? In my view it is harder to stay at the top than to get to the top. Tuchel managed Mainz just like Klopp and got to the top, but now look how hard he found managing Bayern. Xavi won La Liga and got sacked from Barcelona already. 

It's like in the business world. Managing a large corporation is easier than managing a small business ? I don't think so. Every level has its own challenges, unfortunately in FM if you want challenge you have to pick bad teams, which I don't like because I like managing good players who will execute what I expect from them. 

I don't understand the logic of LLM being tougher challenge than playing in top tier football even if it's Real. With all the advantages over AI in all areas of management it's like saying in formula one game it should be tougher to compete against normal cars than formula bolides. 

[El Payaso]

I am really worried about how the transfer windows work. The AI seems really passive this year and as more players seem to be willing to make sideway moves on their careers and AI willing to loan out even their first-team players. All these make squad building even easier than it has been before. 

Would really enjoy if strengthening your squad was actually difficult and even maintaining the same level would be tough. 

[whatsupdoc]

44 minutes ago, Litmanen 10 said:

I am really worried about how the transfer windows work. The AI seems really passive this year and as more players seem to be willing to make sideway moves on their careers and AI willing to loan out even their first-team players. All these make squad building even easier than it has been before. 

Would really enjoy if strengthening your squad was actually difficult and even maintaining the same level would be tough. 

Add it to the list of headline features we'd like to see fixed before similar new "features" are added.

How good would it be to see zero new features in FM one year. Just improve what's already there. 

If the marketing people are good at their job why not give them a challenge. 

I'll get them started with a tagline: "FM25, if the FM24 headline features don't work this time, we'll give you a refund!" 

Edited February 23 by whatsupdoc

[santy001]

7 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Getting more out of players than their attributes is part of the game and your duty as manager but that should only take you so far. You don't have to have world class players at every position but certainly players that meet the minimum threshold of what's considered league standard. Maybe what I expect the standard to be is too high. It's not that your guy is a bad player, just one I would expect to be exposed at a certain level.

Most people I expect wouldn't consider purchasing Tchamadeu for right back in the Championship. He starts at Stoke and was very effective so I saw no reason to replace him, he would average around a 7.00 for my side and would get 5-10 assists in all competitions. So he wasn't excelling but rather he was functional and in a team that just needs the right back to offer a safe passing option and provide some additional support on the wing without ever needing to be too involved in attacks. The aggression, anticipation, decisions, positioning and work rate of Tchamadeu and Arnold are within a couple of points of each other. Strength aside, their physicals are also within a couple of points of each other. 

How often are you asking a player in that position to do something actually difficult for a footballer? 

It does change though, I was having some struggles with the team elsewhere and @XaW was kind enough to share his formation with me which I took some heavy inspiration from. It didn't have an AMC so I needed to find a new creative role, I ended up settling on the RB as being my main creative force as I had a player who looked like he would become an absolute monster in that position. He gets on the end of crosses from the left and scores headers, poses a threat from set pieces while just getting an absolute hatful of assists (19 goals & 21 assists in 45 games):

Spoiler

There is no other player in my save that could do what this particular RB does I feel at this time. When he begins to decline it will necessitate an adjustment in tactics because even if I retrain other players to have the knock balls past opponents & crosses early PPM they can't do it to the same level. Perhaps counter-intuitively with my previous tactic this RB would have been a waste. He may have gotten a few more assists than Tchamadeu in a season, had some better performance indicators but it wouldn't have changed anything in the team overall because it wasn't a role designated to have substantial impact on the team. 

Sometimes the issue is you're just asking a world class player to fulfil a fairly basic and functional role in your team. So they don't seem particularly outstanding yet it creates a bias that you need such a good player to just attain that level of performance. Whereas actually it just needs a competent player to deliver that level of performance. 

When you task players with an actually difficult function within the team you then start to see the world class attributes and high scoring attributes make a difference.

[NineCloudNine]

12 hours ago, makavali said:

I just hate how easy this game becomes at some points. Accepted Real Madrid's offer in my somewhat of a journeyman save and it's just stupidly easy. 

Before I start getting the default replies - I'm using a medium-intensity tactic which I've created myself and I'm doing everything I can to not make my experience so dull. Yes, I know that I'm incredibly good at the game and it's my own fault for using Real Madrid. Yes, I know that you need to pick a team in the 33rd Scottish tier, play without attributes, watch full matches, drink an onion smoothie every morning before I load up the game, etc etc blablabla to make this game enjoyable for an experienced player. 

Even then, it's just stupid how easy you can dominate. It's stupid how often you see huge scorelines. It's stupid how often you see an early goal (before the 3rd min). It literally feels unplayable. Luckily, games on the road against strong teams are still tricky, but it just shows that there's no balance at all. 

Just look at my results once I got into gear. I don't care if you have MSN on steroids or a front three of Mbappe, prime R9 and Pep's era Messi, you don't win every game away in La Liga with a margin of 2-4 goals. It's just not possible. 



As a cherry on top of the cake, in this save, I won the treble (league, cup, conference) in my 3rd season with Cercle friggin Brugge. Make it make sense. 

Also, the more you play, the more you notice how bad the match engine is. You see like 5-7 of the same goals on repeat bar the odd banger or a MessiAgainstGetafe-esque solo run by your winger which, sadly, happens way too often. I mean it's still better than the stupid 5-5 goal fest we had with the 'great' match engine, but it's just so bleh. So, so, so disappointed in this year's game and I've never been disappointed before. 

Making the game challenging for experienced and “incredibly good” players would make it impossible for large numbers of casual players on whom the commercial viability of the game depends. FM is already a daunting learning curve for a new player. It is easy to get into a spiral where you are losing and nothing works and you get fired. The game will give you little to no clue as to why or what to do.

The difference is that you - the incredibly good player - have tools available to make your game more difficult. You snarkily dismiss these, but they exist. Attribute masking, not using player search, not making unrealistic transfers, not using tactics you know to be OP. The casual player faced with a daunting array of confusing and poorly explained game elements has nowhere to turn.

If difficulty levels were introduced then they would work the exact same way as other number-based games: artificially boosting AI numbers while nerfing yours, or vice-versa. Would this work for you?

[forameuss]

18 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

If difficulty levels were introduced then they would work the exact same way as other number-based games: artificially boosting AI numbers while nerfing yours, or vice-versa. Would this work for you?

Amusingly, a lot of the complaints of AI teams only needing one chance to score, or human teams constantly being punished would go from being flights of fancy to true by design.  What a treat.

[Mitja]

14 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

If difficulty levels were introduced then they would work the exact same way as other number-based games: artificially boosting AI numbers while nerfing yours, or vice-versa. Would this work for you?

Difficulty levels should be climbing up the quality of opposition managers and teams. Not the other way round. But then the game wouldn't sell that much. For faster more casual gameplay there's assistant manager, dof etc.

[RDF Tactics]

12 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

It really doesn't help the game is tactically so broken this year too, with a lot of unrealistic tactics miraculously working whilst anything with a degree of logic in comparison performs much weaker. 

There's no balance at all so far to the game this year. Hoping the patch can at least make it playable going forwards, but based on the circumstances of both the game and the year it has fallen within, sadly I don't hold much optimism, especially the fact there is so much wrong with the game it will be difficult to know what to end up prioritising.

It would be nice to actually know what SI have been working on for this last patch too, acknowledging the real problematic areas and what they are choosing to prioritise.

to play devil's advocate because again, it keeps coming up about unrealistic tactics working. PLEASE DO NOT USE UNREALISTIC TACTICS!!!!  

This complaint has to be one of the most frustrating things I come across. "my 4231 gegenpress is SO OP" *continues to use the op 4231*....Like, it doesn't make sense.

FM ever since, always had tactics that would overperform in game. This has always been the case (Football Manager is a game, lets not forget that part). Unrealistic tactics working in game has always been a thing. 4-3-3 with 3 strikers and 3 cms used to be a thing.

When it comes to tactics, there absolutely can be a balance. Some people just don't have the patience for it all. "defensive tactics don't work" because people rarely put the effort needed to make that defensive tactic work. You sort of mentioned it yourself, "unrealistic tactics miraculously working whilst anything with a degree of logic in comparison performs much weaker"...This is not completely the case. While generally, a certain aggressive tactic may work better universally, you can also create something very specific for your team and it perform just as well. But do these players have that patience? It seems not.

Edited February 23 by RDF Tactics

[forameuss]

19 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Difficulty levels should be climbing up the quality of opposition managers and teams. Not the other way round. But then the game wouldn't sell that much. For faster more casual gameplay there's assistant manager, dof etc.

So the minority that want a greater challenge get the game built for them, and the (probable) majority who don't have to actively jettison parts of the game so they can enjoy it?  Seems like a sound business strategy.

[RDF Tactics]

34 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Making the game challenging for experienced and “incredibly good” players would make it impossible for large numbers of casual players on whom the commercial viability of the game depends. FM is already a daunting learning curve for a new player. It is easy to get into a spiral where you are losing and nothing works and you get fired. The game will give you little to no clue as to why or what to do.

The difference is that you - the incredibly good player - have tools available to make your game more difficult. You snarkily dismiss these, but they exist. Attribute masking, not using player search, not making unrealistic transfers, not using tactics you know to be OP. The casual player faced with a daunting array of confusing and poorly explained game elements has nowhere to turn.

If difficulty levels were introduced then they would work the exact same way as other number-based games: artificially boosting AI numbers while nerfing yours, or vice-versa. Would this work for you?

I don't completely disagree with the "FM is too easy" claims. Not completely.

But you mentioned it and I mentioned it in my comment above with tactics. YOU (the manager) can make the game more challenging and more often or not, you don't. People love to bang on about "realism" and it being "too easy" and one way you can make FM harder is by removing all attributes. You can set yourself a transfer target. You as the manager have the ability to reject offers coming in for your player - if you feel a team is offering too much, you don't have to sell (admittedly, can play your immersion).

But the number of times I see people claim the game is too easy while using a tactic they know will overachieve (and the reason why they're using it in the first place lol) and continue to sign players like Roony Bardghji, Youssoufa Moukoko, Joao Nevers etc etc.
 

There are many challenges you can set yourself in game that many "the games too easy" users won't bother to attempt. I noticed a lot that people want Football Manager to be designed for them (I may be guilty).

[NineCloudNine]

23 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Difficulty levels should be climbing up the quality of opposition managers and teams. Not the other way round. But then the game wouldn't sell that much.

There is logic to this. Of course, unless you are Xavi, Zidane or De Rossi you have to work your way up to the big teams. Whereas in FM you go straight in to managing Real Madrid and buying Mbappe and 15 wonderkids in year one because that’s what people want to do. Thus LLM is harder than managing the best teams in the world, which is completely upside down.

Edited February 23 by NineCloudNine

[RDF Tactics]

2 minutes ago, forameuss said:

So the minority that want a greater challenge get the game built for them, and the (probable) majority who don't have to actively jettison parts of the game so they can enjoy it?  Seems like a sound business strategy.

crazy I just said the same haha people want Football Manager to be designed for them. While the game is already designed so you, as a player, can play the game in many many different ways. FM allows this.

Defending the game a little isn't then saying Football Manager is perfect just the way it is. We know it's not. But people's complaints I feel don't make a better game overall. Just a better game for them, Nerfing unrealistic tactics for example, that makes the game less fun for a large number of players. But you as a manager have the option to use various tactics.

[janrzm]

If AI managers could squad build, rotate, develop players and make effective tactical tweaks then that would go a long way towards addressing difficulty. 

I can’t think of any other game I play where I essentially have to “dumb down” my decision making in game.

[-Jef-]

 

 

And I have to agree with @RDF Tactics. Unrealistic tactics work because FM is still a game and it will never be perfect because players/users always find a way to create something even remotely broken. 4231 gegenpressing is OP, but Diablo from quite literally 20 years ago was game breaking so the game has become a lot better in that aspect.

 

I got relegated first season, had to sell few of my most important players and replace them with either loans or u17 youth intake players. So I've tried to create a tactic that would be solid defensively but also creative and fun going forward. Nothing extreme or crazy since I do use daveincid's mods and don't want to deal with 15 injuries come March.

I am also using Statman skin and generally try to use attributes as last crutch when making a decision. I use stars, scouting report, pros, cons, fbref stats to make a decision when buying a player and only as last check do I look at the attributes. Which is something that is closer to real life decision making. Also, when deciding on starting 11 I use last 5 match av rating and training rating above all. If a backup player performs one or two games better than first choice player I will have confidence in the backup and push him to play in starting 11 in the next match regardless of who the opponent is.

Even though I dominated the league (still 4 games to play) I had to fend off mighty Sesvete who put in a historic season for them in terms of performance.

 

You can see in the team overview stats that I was dominant in every facet except in most tackles won which is to be expected due to having 61% of the ball.

 

 

This is the tactic

 

 

tactic is pretty simple, honestly

 

fullbacks providing width despite narrow team instruction which has more to do with where I want to focus the play whilst not disregarding wide play. Case in point my first choice right back Sigur is top assist in the league with 9 and Šušnjar, left winger, has 18 g+a in 26 games/ 21 nineties.

Rigth back also has take fewer risks because wb-s is adventurous role  (Positive mentality) that takes relatively a lot of risks and KTC and Niko Sigur are not the best playmakers. Good crossing, bad traditional playmaking.

Left back is more of a traditional attacking fullback whose main role is to provide width, overlap and cross to far post to IF-A

Defensive mid is not a flashy role but with More direct passing he sort of becomes an incognito playmaker from the deep.

And this PI does exactly that. He has cautious mentality as DM-D so he will only try to unlock the defense with a through or over the top ball when the player deems it is sort of safe to do so. He still plays lots of short passes

Solid decisions, passing, okay-ish defensively and this was the perfect role for this player. And at 186cm he can win headers and be an outlet. Basically, I wanted to replicate Busquets as best as I could.

RPM is the star of the team, attracts the ball and is all over the pitch. Scoring, assisting, defending...RPM is probably the most demanding role in the game and I had the perfect player for it.

68 mpg because he is still 19 and don't want to ruin him by playing him too much.

But passing, chance creation is off the charts.

IF-A is basically my Mo Salah...except I don't have that type of player so I just use whoever but don't change he role because I want the type of movement and runs that IF-A provides.

F9 is a special role (move into channels, roam PIs) and will have a special place in my heart forever. And it is perfect for the team. I primarily chose it because I have 2 dribblers at the striker role who are not top tier, relatively speaking, at finishing chances attributes wise.

F9 presses defensive mids (which is perfect because I am playing mid block). I played AF here and was not happy defensively how AF acted.

He also drops deep connecting the team as a whole and opening the space for runners - IW-s, RPM and IF-A. But also F9 makes runs behind the oppo lines and this is why I adore this role

Two strikers I played in the role. The second striker is a newcomer and still has to settle in the team but has already been immense in the role I gave him.

Assman thinks second striker is 2.5* SILVER in F9. I am not kidding

I decided not to have high press with all 10 players

I made a mid block tactic that counter presses when the ball is lost because the area of play in opponents 3rd is compressed both vertically and horizontally and it is easier to make 3-5 second concerted effort after losing the ball to regain it than to have 90 min full pitch pressing.

Drop off more is used because I conceded goals in my penalty area which has since stopped/reduced to bare minimum when I introduced that TI.

Sorry for the long rant by RDFs post in tactics forum and the discussion here about OP tactics has prompted me to make this post that you can make a dominant tactic on both sides of the play without exploiting the game engine. As he has also shown in his latest vid with the 4222 box setup.

 

[RDF Tactics]

6 minutes ago, janrzm said:

If AI managers could squad build, rotate, develop players and make effective tactical tweaks then that would go a long way towards addressing difficulty. 

I can’t think of any other game I play where I essentially have to “dumb down” my decision making in game.

Squad rotation and developing players certainly can help. I feel these are very weak areas for AI. I left out tactical tweaks because that can be redundant if the manager can't build their squad effectively.

This year, I am 100% certain one of the new features would be that AI managers will sign players for their style of play? This for me has to be more obvious/exaggerated. I don't feel when I'm selling players or when teams are offering for my players, their style of play is being considered. One reason why when I sell players, they can't get into their new teams squad. I feel it's partly down to their CA but also, just doesn't suit the managers system. For example, the manager plays 4-3-3 but buys my AM who's only natural position is AM. It's interesting to see how they've implemented that style of play stuff in the game.

But AI squad management is something that will improve FM without a doubt. Seeing some managers become progressive too. Klopp doesn't have to use a 4-3-3 everywhere he goes. He should be able to use his great in-game attributes to create something suited to a squad if he leaves LFC. 

[forameuss]

11 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

crazy I just said the same haha people want Football Manager to be designed for them. While the game is already designed so you, as a player, can play the game in many many different ways. FM allows this.

Defending the game a little isn't then saying Football Manager is perfect just the way it is. We know it's not. But people's complaints I feel don't make a better game overall. Just a better game for them, Nerfing unrealistic tactics for example, that makes the game less fun for a large number of players. But you as a manager have the option to use various tactics.

I can already sense a lot of ears pricking up, but there's a general sense of entitlement.  Not really an FM thing, more a modern world thing.  At the very least, a distinct lack of imagination.  The game is just not set up - and likely never will be - to function without the user needing to fill in the blanks, so to speak.  But the benefit is, despite the game world often being incredibly sterile and lacking in a lot of areas, it's still an absolutely enormous sandbox for you to do largely whatever you want in.  Obviously you should be able to use ANY means of playing and have no issues, but...well, that's just not realistic, sad to say.  So I'll never understand the insistence of using an overpowered or broken means of playing, when the tools are there to do it differently.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

 

 

And I have to agree with @RDF Tactics. Unrealistic tactics work because FM is still a game and it will never be perfect because players/users always find a way to create something even remotely broken. 4231 gegenpressing is OP, but Diablo from quite literally 20 years ago was game breaking so the game has become a lot better in that aspect.

 

This doesn't get spoken about enough.  For those that are old enough to remember (sad face) Diablo was a true game-breaker.  There hasn't been anything remotely close to the level of Diablo in a long time, and that should show how far the engine has come.  Obviously still a way to go, but still.

[janrzm]

5 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Squad rotation and developing players certainly can help. I feel these are very weak areas for AI. I left out tactical tweaks because that can be redundant if the manager can't build their squad effectively.

This year, I am 100% certain one of the new features would be that AI managers will sign players for their style of play? This for me has to be more obvious/exaggerated. I don't feel when I'm selling players or when teams are offering for my players, their style of play is being considered. One reason why when I sell players, they can't get into their new teams squad. I feel it's partly down to their CA but also, just doesn't suit the managers system. For example, the manager plays 4-3-3 but buys my AM who's only natural position is AM. It's interesting to see how they've implemented that style of play stuff in the game.

But AI squad management is something that will improve FM without a doubt. Seeing some managers become progressive too. Klopp doesn't have to use a 4-3-3 everywhere he goes. He should be able to use his great in-game attributes to create something suited to a squad if he leaves LFC. 

Yep, or seeing a newly appointed AI manager noticeably and logically transforming their squad over several transfer windows to suit their preferred style of play. 

[Mitja]

49 minutes ago, forameuss said:

So the minority that want a greater challenge get the game built for them, and the (probable) majority who don't have to actively jettison parts of the game so they can enjoy it?  Seems like a sound business strategy.

Why than advertise it as the most realistic football simulation? But yeah I agree there's huge difference in playing style between those who want to bring their pub team to CL in few seasons and minority who want tactical battles. There would almost have to be two different versions. That's why I said a properly working AM (especially on tactical side) and similar would help with faster gameplay. Both sides would be pleased without introducing difficulty levels. 

[forameuss]

12 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Why than advertise it as the most realistic football simulation? But yeah I agree there's huge difference in playing style between those who want to bring their pub team to CL in few seasons and minority who want tactical battles. There would almost have to be two different versions. That's why I said a properly working AM (especially on tactical side) and similar would help with faster gameplay. Both sides would be pleased without introducing difficulty levels. 

Name a more realistic football simulation.  It's marketing speak.  It is the most realistic football simulation, even if it isn't always particularly realistic.

My point was flippant, but it shows the problem SI have.  There are hundreds - probably thousands - of people who have completely different ideas about the direction the game should go in.  SI have to pick the best fit, which is pretty much impossible.

Edited February 23 by forameuss

[mp_87]

Obviously on some of these issues things need improving, and I've had my say on the topics over the years, but at the end of the day you do have to remember it is a game and SI simply have to make it entertaining and attractive (i.e. promote and build around "attacking football") in order for it to be commercially viable.

I would say though there are some things to consider:

Now look I am an anomaly, I watch full matches, even for my youth teams, but 99.9% of users - whether that's casual players, through to the expert tactics guys - play matches on reduced highlights. Tactics/AI therefore simply have to be more forgiving. Plus lets be honest, the vast, vast, vast majority of a football match is boring, nothing really happening and the key/decisive/exciting moments a sporadic and tiny percentage of the whole game. If real life was enacted this would mean a handful of key highlights at most, and user complaints. So to give them plenty of highlights and bits of the match to watch, it has to be geared towards the unrealistic(ally attacking) to give the user his moneys worth and to feel involved.

Mentality is a fundamental problem in tactics in my opinion. It is not well used by the system/AI, it is even less well used by the average user. In real life if you watch a standard match across any league and you'll see the same thing. The top sides, being the attacking/possession team, would play in an FM equivalent of balanced, at the highest, and probably more akin to something like cautious (with certain select players then given more freedom, eg. passing or forward runs). If you want realistic football and outcomes/stats then you need to be prepared for the big chunks of games where possession is just recycled, teams go nowhere, and nothing happens. That isn't done by clicking Positive, which is what most AI or human systems just default to in FM. Needs a complete revamp, and better user understanding.

I also saw it summed up once, whether that's accurate or inaccurate, fair or unfair, that for the all the adding on to it with certain roles or things like positional play, FM was built with 80/90's English football influence and does reflect that. Which brings me to my last talking point, and favourite topic over the years - wideplay and behaviour. This is the biggest cause of the problems and why attacking is considered overpowered and unrealistic. Basically all wide behaviour, roles, duties are too direct and completely OTT compared to modern 2020's football - before you even get to any instructions added by the user. If you wanted to pick one aspect in the game to take a wrecking ball to, it would be this.

[g1nh0]

1 hour ago, RDF Tactics said:

to play devil's advocate because again, it keeps coming up about unrealistic tactics working. PLEASE DO NOT USE UNREALISTIC TACTICS!!!!  

 

Go and tell that to every player that plays FM online that abuses the same broken tactic  

[Eoin Maguire]

Am I the only one that thinks that SIs communication policy is terrible and works in ways other dev teams just don't? 

It's the 23rd of February and there has not been a single word on the Winter Update, what they want to change, when will it be out (approx). The last update (only a minor one) was the beginning of December, this game has a 12 month cycle...  It really baffles me to how two FMs ago the Winter Update was already out by now and two years later it's the same time and nothing, not even communication.

It just seems to get worse every year at this stage. For the life of me I can't understand why a dev team don't communicate directly to their consumer, it's just "here it is, we did this, see you in 7 months". If anybody can tell me another dev team that works like that then I will be surprised...

[makavali]

2 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Making the game challenging for experienced and “incredibly good” players would make it impossible for large numbers of casual players on whom the commercial viability of the game depends. FM is already a daunting learning curve for a new player. It is easy to get into a spiral where you are losing and nothing works and you get fired. The game will give you little to no clue as to why or what to do.

The difference is that you - the incredibly good player - have tools available to make your game more difficult. You snarkily dismiss these, but they exist. Attribute masking, not using player search, not making unrealistic transfers, not using tactics you know to be OP. The casual player faced with a daunting array of confusing and poorly explained game elements has nowhere to turn.

If difficulty levels were introduced then they would work the exact same way as other number-based games: artificially boosting AI numbers while nerfing yours, or vice-versa. Would this work for you?

No, I simply want the difficulty of FM23 to return. My issue is not that the game is easy, my issue is that this game is way easier than the previous ones. 

Edited February 23 by makavali

[g1nh0]

Why it would be nice to know what the intentions were with the improvements on this last patch. If they aren't going to make any improvements to the difficulty and brokenness of this year's game which is extreme, I'd revert back to FM 23 now and be done with 24.

[Rodrigogc]

15 minutos atrás, g1nh0 disse:

Why it would be nice to know what the intentions were with the improvements on this last patch. If they aren't going to make any improvements to the difficulty and brokenness of this year's game which is extreme, I'd revert back to FM 23 now and be done with 24.

Same here. I had a St Paulli save in FM23 that I was willing to keep playing in FM24 but got completely disappointed once I won Bayern without them even creating good scoring chances. I'm very happy with the whole positional play thing though, I think it is interesting but the state of the game now makes it uncalled for.