FM24 - Positional Play Explained with examples

[daveydelaat]

Can I download the tactics above here please? The Liverpool and Man City one I realy like and I'm looking for that a few days now!

[skybluedave]

Say a 4231 or 433, would an inverted wing back work with an inside forward or inverted winger ahead of him in AML/R? Or should it ideally be a winger in front?

[Generation-Next]

13 hours ago, daveydelaat said:

Can I download the tactics above here please? The Liverpool and Man City one I realy like and I'm looking for that a few days now!

Literally just copy the tactics. All the information is there you don’t need to download them. 

[jdubsnz]

@Rashidi what an awesome write-up, thank you!  any idea how you would get Arteta's Arsenal to play? probably last season? interested how you would get the Zinchenko role working. this is my attempt, haven't put it into action yet as just started the season and read your post. I have Zinchenko on more direct and risky passing, White running wide with the ball and staying wider and Saka cutting inside with the ball. Also figured a CM(a) / Mes (s) could work with a Havertz/Odegaard combo with Rice at DM (when he arrives!). Any feedback greatly received

Edited October 24, 2023 by jdubsnz
adding screenshot

[daveydelaat]

3 hours ago, Generation-Next said:

Literally just copy the tactics. All the information is there you don’t need to download them. 

Can’t see the player roles tho…

[klaasjan]

You might have a browser problem. I can also see every player role in OP post.

[daveydelaat]

3 hours ago, klaasjan said:

You might have a browser problem. I can also see every player role in OP post.

I mean player instructions, sorry

[Ivan787]

Il 17/9/2023 in 08:02 , Rashidi ha scritto:

POSITIONAL PLAY EXPLAINED FOR FM24

This is new to FM24, allowing you to build formations that morph into different ones during different phases. These changes to formation depend entirely on the roles you have chosen.

 

This is an absolutely amazing analysis.

I'd like to suggest you to analyze also the Inzaghi system at Inter. I think that his 3-5-2 system shows very enhanced rotation, in particular on the flanks, so it is an evolution of the Atalanta system you had described.

In my opinion is a very good example of positional play applied to a system 3-5-2 which wasn't born for this type of play.

The interaction between mezzala, wingbacks and strikers are very complicated and it should be interesting to see if the improvement in positional play make possible what was impossible in the previous editions.

What do you think?

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Ivan787

[Batigoal__]

Thank you @Rashidi for another great piece of work and for all that you have to say here and elsewhere.
It's interesting to see the halfback stall in the build-up phase on the left or right in a double-pivot system.
Can this positional movement be reproduced with another role solely in this build-up phase ?
In Olympique de Marseille's last Europa League match against AEK, Rongier and Kondogbia dropped back to set up 3 defenders, allowing Lodi and Ndiaye to make inside calls.

There were two sequences of this type around the 6th and 16th minutes, but not throughout the match.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Batigoal__

[Rashidi]

I did a halfback video on my channel where I explained the few ways a halfback can move in the game. If he is playing as part of a double dm system he will drop back and act like a wide centreback in build up play. With the right roles like a WM with sit narrow or an IW who will play narrower in midfield.  With the halfback dropping Deép a WM IW or a WP in the central midfield could all come inside.

[Batigoal__]

Thank you @Rashidi

Edited November 5, 2023 by Batigoal__

[newsuzanoebok]

what do i need to do to my IWB to really go to the middle and act like a defensive midfielder? cuz even if they get closer, i still cant figure out, or this is the maximum?

[HanziZoloman]

Am 19.10.2023 um 13:18 schrieb Rashidi:

Have fun playing football manager 24. My hope is that you understand the thought process that went behind creating these tactics, and if you didn't you can always find me and ask me here on the forums, or out there .... somewhere.

Thanks once more @Rashidi I have so much fun with the game following your input here and out there. 

Hope you’re well

[w_x]

20 hours ago, newsuzanoebok said:

what do i need to do to my IWB to really go to the middle and act like a defensive midfielder? cuz even if they get closer, i still cant figure out, or this is the maximum?

Is this overall average position?

[newsuzanoebok]

42 minutos atrás, w_x disse:

Is this overall average position?

with ball only

[luka_zg]

This is my system in defence and attack.

Other variation is to make IFB/D to FB/S or even CWB/S and make DLP/D. This will give me even more bite in attack. The main gola scoring threats are AF, Iw/A and SV/A, working very well mostly. Against big teams away not so much. Not sure why. Playing as ManUtd.

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Fantastic guiede as always  

Last night, I tried Libero role and I saw some lovely positional play from my Libero(sup). 

 

 

Yasin, who was our IFB(d), plays firts time with L(s), who was in space which created by MEZ(s). Then L(s) decided to dribble with ball and pass it to our left winger who was running behind the defence. 

 

 

For this movement, we have PF(a), Mez(s) and righ winger for occupying the opposition player. If there was no player positioning himself high of the pitch like mez(s), I guess opposition would press more aggressively to our L(s). Because of the presence of Mez(s), opposition had to decide what to do. Likewas PF(a)'s movement for our left winger. 

 

 

Then Ali Akman, who was playing on the left winger, meet the ball and he had space and time for a nice shoot. Lovely movement, nice goal from guys.

 

[rootcoors]

Fantastic read and information. Enjoyed it; thanks for taking the time to put it together @Rashidi

Edited November 4, 2023 by rootcoors

[DarJ]

On 01/11/2023 at 23:01, newsuzanoebok said:

with ball only

It's still an average. You need to watch the games instead to see what they do

[Jack Sarahs]

On 01/11/2023 at 01:58, newsuzanoebok said:

what do i need to do to my IWB to really go to the middle and act like a defensive midfielder? cuz even if they get closer, i still cant figure out, or this is the maximum?

Can you post a screenshot of your tactic?

[The3points]

14 hours ago, DarJ said:

It's still an average. You need to watch the games instead to see what they do

Yes, IWBs start wide in early buildup, and come in the centre later. There's also the fact that they might spend loads of time in the centre, but not be found on the ball and be bypassed, which is why I never really trust average position

[Batigoal__]

Le 29/10/2023 à 12:39, Rashidi a dit :

I did a halfback video on my channel where I explained the few ways a halfback can move in the game. If he is playing as part of a double dm system he will drop back and act like a wide centreback in build up play. With the right roles like a WM with sit narrow or an IW who will play narrower in midfield.  With the halfback dropping Deép a WM IW or a WP in the central midfield could all come inside.

 

Le 29/10/2023 à 18:36, Batigoal__ a dit :

Thank you @Rashidi

In addition, I had forgotten. I don't know if it's possible for Football Manager in the future, but it would be interesting to be able to "extract" the particular attributes of the roles that are coded by proposing them in the PIs to be activated.
For example, a Segundo Volante could very well remain eccentric during the construction phase by forming a line of 3 in defence by activating the attribute in the PIs that is originally associated with the halfback role. Segundo Volante's role would remain that of an explosive midfielder, but would have the special feature of being able to have a mechanism linked only to the halfback role, rather than all of it.
I don't know if that's clear.

[Mik_Fe]

Guys… but, the list of roles mentioned by Rashidi in the first post, like AP, Mezzala etc etc, he mean of both duty support and attack? Or not?

[Rashidi]

@Batigoal__Probably best raising that as a feature request. @Mik_FeApplies to the roles irrespective of the duty.

[Batigoal__]

Thanks for the suggestion @Rashidi, I've opened a thread here

[Mik_Fe]

1 ora fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

@Batigoal__Probably best raising that as a feature request. @Mik_FeApplies to the roles irrespective of the duty.

Thanks @Rashidi!

[ceefax the cat]

Looks like I'll have to wait for next year to be able to shuffle the midfield 4 across into a 3 when space is vacated by the WP or IW. Been trying to do that for years, in order to do Ancelotti-type 442--->433 or 442-->Xmas Tree. I like the idea of defending in a 4-4-2 no matter what, and just having different systems with the ball... Man City do it quite a lot... Barcelona did it a few years ago too, with Neymar dropping to the left wing and the midfield 3 shuffling across without the ball.

@Jack Sarahs Do you think these positional shifts might appear at some point?

I'm loving inverted fullback so far mind. Allows me to fit one more beastly, clogging centre half into a dour 4-4-2 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by ceefax the cat

[bababooey]

Has anyone tried using a halfback in front of a back 3?

My idea is to do something where one of the 3 center backs goes on an underlapping run, while the halfback drops in to cover for him and form a back 3 with the remaining two center backs. Then, we could have a CM who drops deep to form a 3-2 build up shape.  Is this nutso or solid ?

[JIPI1]

Try it out and see for yourself. It sounds like it can work as a mean of facilitating your buildup.

[04texag]

7 hours ago, bababooey said:

Has anyone tried using a halfback in front of a back 3?

My idea is to do something where one of the 3 center backs goes on an underlapping run, while the halfback drops in to cover for him and form a back 3 with the remaining two center backs. Then, we could have a CM who drops deep to form a 3-2 build up shape.  Is this nutso or solid ?

This definitely works. 

[gunnerfan]

@Rashidi - I've been using a 4-2-3-1 DM, with my AMR set to IF/S. But the player I use there has the skills to be an excellent RMD, so I'm going to try him in that role. My question is: I usually play a WB/S in the DR slot. But with an RMD up front on that side, would I be better off playing an IWB on that side?

[Rashidi]

U could I have found the RMDs can work well in both mid and high blocks this year. High blocks are challenging necessitating the use of work ball into box and you will  need either a Mez\WB comb or WB/W combo on the opposite flank.

[gunnerfan]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

U could I have found the RMDs can work well in both mid and high blocks this year. High blocks are challenging necessitating the use of work ball into box and you will  need either a Mez\WB comb or WB/W combo on the opposite flank.

I currently use a SV/IWB combo on the opposite (left) flank. I alternate between a W and IW in the AML slot.

[ceefax the cat]

I like playing defensively and I'm thinking the most defensive thing I could possibly do might be to make my fullbacks WCB's and my wingers wingbacks, with a halfback as my second central defender. So attack as a 4-4-2, defend as a 5-3-2. Could be fun. Or even pull one of the strikers out to the wing, or to SS, and defend as a 5-4-1

[ThomasHK1979]

In the Klopp 433 my DM is not involved at all and get horrible rating game after game. 

[Razor940]

Em 01/11/2023 em 01:58, newsuzanoebok disse:

what do i need to do to my IWB to really go to the middle and act like a defensive midfielder? cuz even if they get closer, i still cant figure out, or this is the maximum?

This is product of using 2 IWBs.

[Muja]

Il 17/9/2023 in 08:02 , Rashidi ha scritto:

Rotational Shifts in position/tier

Defenders

Inverted Fullback (From FB to CD)
Inverted Wingback (From FB & WB to DM). 
Libero (From CD to DM)

Midfielders

Halfback ( From DM to CD) Even an offset HB will cause the two central defenders to go wider.
Segundo Volante (From DM to AM)
Roaming Playmaker (From DM, CM, AM)
Box to Box Midfielder (From CM to AM)
Central Midfielder Attack (From CM to AM)
Advanced Playmaker (From CM to AM)
Mezzala (From CM to AM)

@Rashidi In the list you wrote, I only see players who move up positions. What can you tell us about players moving down?
I assume F9, DLF-su, and CF-su drop into the AM strata. Which others?

Il 20/10/2023 in 13:26 , Jack Sarahs ha scritto:

The roles listed above are the only roles that trigger rotations.

Oh never mind then, so there's no role coming deep, am I right?

Il 20/10/2023 in 04:29 , Rashidi ha scritto:

If you want him to drop very deep, you might have two choices. A trait like comes deeper which will only make it a tendency or the role of a Trequartista. Though I haven’t tried a TQ yet, that would be an assumption.

As a matter of fact, I don't see the TQ doing that. 
So I guess the only way to make a role come deep is to have the "comes deeper" trait, but that won't trigger a rotation anyway, correct?

[Jack Sarahs]

15 hours ago, Muja said:

@Rashidi In the list you wrote, I only see players who move up positions. What can you tell us about players moving down?
I assume F9, DLF-su, and CF-su drop into the AM strata. Which others?

Oh never mind then, so there's no role coming deep, am I right?

As a matter of fact, I don't see the TQ doing that. 
So I guess the only way to make a role come deep is to have the "comes deeper" trait, but that won't trigger a rotation anyway, correct?

The HB is the only role that will rotate backwards in the positional play rotations feature.

 

This isn’t to say players or other roles don’t come deep to get the ball generally however. For example any playmaking role will seek to get on the ball and be more willing to search for it. 

[Muja]

31 minuti fa, Jack Sarahs ha scritto:

The HB is the only role that will rotate backwards in the positional play rotations feature.

 

This isn’t to say players or other roles don’t come deep to get the ball generally however. For example any playmaking role will seek to get on the ball and be more willing to search for it. 

Thank you very much!

[avenger22]

On 16/12/2023 at 10:42, Jack Sarahs said:

The HB is the only role that will rotate backwards in the positional play rotations feature.

 

This isn’t to say players or other roles don’t come deep to get the ball generally however. For example any playmaking role will seek to get on the ball and be more willing to search for it. 

Maybe in the future would be cool to have a CM(d) coming as a holding mid with the ball for example defending in 5-3-2 and attacking with 3-4-2-1 so a cm drop and form a double pivot while a Mezz or cm attack form a 3 man striker partnership which isn't possible, also a problem is that 2 strikers do not recognize the positional movement of DM or CM and don't shift i think has been raised as a bug which is pretty evident that case.

[Bahnzo]

Thank you @Rashidi. Taking the time to read this really gave me a better insight into tactics. Which in turn will surely result in more fun. And, I feel like I better understand the how and why behind how teams in real life play as well. 

One thing I'd love to learn more about, would be the differences between IWB on defense, support and attack duties. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Bahnzo

[ThomasHK1979]

@RashidiThis maybe the best thread I’ve ever read on this forum. Could a Treq as AMC in 4231DM system work to create a 235 shape?

[ianscousemac]

@RashidiBrilliant explanation of this, thanks very much.

Edited December 22, 2023 by ianscousemac

[ibrahim.akbyk]

On 19.10.2023 at 14:18, Rashidi said:

So whenever I see a team sitting back and defending with a 5212 for example, I will push my defensive line up to maximum, reduce my width, setting pressing triggers to maximum, have my opposition instructions to trigger press the backline and hard tackling the backline on.

Hi rashidi, I was reading this fantastic thread again and I am kinda confuse here.

 

On 19.10.2023 at 14:18, Rashidi said:

- Increase width
- Add Work ball into box
- Play with a high block

Do you reduce or increase the width when opposition sit deep? You was saying reduce it first, then increase it. Or did I miss something?

 

Also, why did you chose fairly wide TI with counter-press in city replication? Isn’t it wide enough with control mentality? I mean, Isn’t it more difficult to counter-press with wider width on control mentality as you said in liverpool part.

[jo3er]

in 5221 no others squad instructions?

[NineCloudNine]

I’m finding that HB dropping between CBs and IFB moving into a back 3 when the CWB on the other side attacks are both working beautifully.

Less so IWB moving into DM, I suspect because there is a lot more movement involved. In my Liverpool save (which I started purely to use TA-A as an IWB) he seems to spend half the game running back and forth between FB and DM. I’ve had more success playing him as either a CWB or as a DLP-S. Maybe there’s a lesson in there! 

[CapitalismReimagined]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I’m finding that HB dropping between CBs and IFB moving into a back 3 when the CWB on the other side attacks are both working beautifully.

Less so IWB moving into DM, I suspect because there is a lot more movement involved. In my Liverpool save (which I started purely to use TA-A as an IWB) he seems to spend half the game running back and forth between FB and DM. I’ve had more success playing him as either a CWB or as a DLP-S. Maybe there’s a lesson in there! 

Could you share your formation and your insights about TAA's movement as an IWB vs a CWB? My understanding is that the CWB can go both side and sit narrow depending on where the DM and Wide Midfielder is at. Isn't that more movement than an IWB which is just sitting narrow all the time? 

[NineCloudNine]

19 minutes ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

Could you share your formation and your insights about TAA's movement as an IWB vs a CWB? My understanding is that the CWB can go both side and sit narrow depending on where the DM and Wide Midfielder is at. Isn't that more movement than an IWB which is just sitting narrow all the time? 

I play a 4-3-3 with a IFB on the left, two BPDs, TAA on the right and a DLP-D. I usually have a W on the left side and an IF or IW on TAA’s side. AP and B2B in the middle.

If I make TAA an IWB, in possession he moves into DM strata and the DLP shunts over. This works as expected, the problem being that it’s quite a long way between those positions so he does a lot of running back and forth.

If I make him a CWB he bombs up and down the wing. He is still sometimes caught out of position when possession is lost and he’s upfield, but the DLP and the three defenders seem to cope better with the transition.

The other issue is that when possession is won when TAA is positioned at DR it takes a few moments for him to sprint into DM, when in fact I want him on the ball right away. I often see him arriving at his DM station just in time to see the DLP or the CMs play a killer ball to the forward line. As a CWB he’s ready to participate in the attack immediately, wherever he happens to be.

These are impressions from watching extended highlights, not full games and not studying data. I do win more with him as CWB, partly I suspect because crossing is powerful in the ME and he’s very good at that.

Edited January 8 by NineCloudNine

[avenger22]

On 08/01/2024 at 11:53, CapitalismReimagined said:

Could you share your formation and your insights about TAA's movement as an IWB vs a CWB? My understanding is that the CWB can go both side and sit narrow depending on where the DM and Wide Midfielder is at. Isn't that more movement than an IWB which is just sitting narrow all the time? 

No he never does it should do it but ME doesn't support it, CWB is very identictal to WB but has more creative freedom with the ball so can play more risky things, but movement wise is same, never seen him attack the box or play like IWB he stays wide that's it

[avenger22]

On 08/01/2024 at 12:13, NineCloudNine said:

I play a 4-3-3 with a IFB on the left, two BPDs, TAA on the right and a DLP-D. I usually have a W on the left side and an IF or IW on TAA’s side. AP and B2B in the middle.

If I make TAA an IWB, in possession he moves into DM strata and the DLP shunts over. This works as expected, the problem being that it’s quite a long way between those positions so he does a lot of running back and forth.

If I make him a CWB he bombs up and down the wing. He is still sometimes caught out of position when possession is lost and he’s upfield, but the DLP and the three defenders seem to cope better with the transition.

The other issue is that when possession is won when TAA is positioned at DR it takes a few moments for him to sprint into DM, when in fact I want him on the ball right away. I often see him arriving at his DM station just in time to see the DLP or the CMs play a killer ball to the forward line. As a CWB he’s ready to participate in the attack immediately, wherever he happens to be.

These are impressions from watching extended highlights, not full games and not studying data. I do win more with him as CWB, partly I suspect because crossing is powerful in the ME and he’s very good at that.

Crossing is very very very strong low ones especially, WB is very strong this year, IWB is good but not in the level of WB