FM24 - Positional Play Explained with examples

[HanziZoloman]

@Rashidi I’m again dwelling through the write up and because I have difficulties with a complete (400:1) underdog in the championship. It’s very difficult to shut the gates and prevent the opponents from scoring. Now I saw a silver lining with the De Zerbi set up with DM(D) and WB(D/S). 
how would you set up a complete underdog like my team, I‘m reading so much about Arsenal and Man City but this is also very relevant, many love to climb the leagues. 
a team that’s losing like 0:9 if not properly helped. 
thanks 

 

somehow (with things being said here and in other topics) I managed to find out myself. Some thoughts regarding the tactic would be nice anyway.

changes with content from here started with the Cardiff match for which I chose the 424 with two WB(D) and two DM(D) DeZerbi style. We won a lucky match but improved in defense. After I read here that lone Striker shapes are more rewarding and more easy to turn into well working tactics with enough goals and we were lacking penetration in the Cardiff game. I chose the 4231 over a 433 because the defense looked much better and I can keep it from the Cardiff match just tinkering with the offense. I put my best crossers on the wings and a fast and tall guy in the center, I imagined three main feeder, the Wingers and the DLP who is the best passer of the team and a solid defender. The AM(S) I was a bit worried about because I could not make shine anyhow. In the last match I faced Portsmouth who spanked me before with a 5:1. They play in a 3ATB and guess my lone Striker was idled. Then I changed the AM from (S) into (A) and the AF into a DLF(A) (which btw gave us positional play) and worked fantastic. The AM got a Match Rating of 8.0 and scored. Thanks guys.

matches:

Spoiler

 

Edited January 12 by HanziZoloman

[ThomasHK1979]

On 19/10/2023 at 13:18, Rashidi said:

OTHER FORMATIONS
Its interesting to see close we can get to replicating some formations from real life, what follows is my interpretation of how some teams play. Its important to realise that managers can react to different opposition by changing their formation. They can also adapt their system when an injury happens. As always please feel free to use them as they are meant to be, sharing what can be done.

 

ANGE POSTECOGLOU - SPURS

I daresay this may become one of the most popular tactics for FM24, simply because of its attacking bent. In real life Spurs play a 433 with two inverted wingbacks, and 2 free eights in midfield who depending on the buildup can come in narrow or go out wide. The manager expects his team to play out of defence all the time and their fowards are expected to work the channels or come in from wider positions. They have been very attacking this season and also play quite high up the pitch.

Buildup Phase

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In the midfield phase their free eights can go wide or narrow. I could provide defensive lines, heatmaps and key pass plots but that would make this an inordinately long post. I just want to be brief. 
 

This is how I see them play, with the IWBs coming inside, there may be a greater need to put the stay wider instruction on the inside forwards, this will encourage them to take up better positions from which to drag out opposing fullbacks. Maddisons heatmap typically places him on the left side of most attacks.

And I know he doesn't attack the box nearly as much as he would as a CM(A), if I wanted to be closer in my interpretation, i would probably turn one mid into a box to box and another into a mezzala, but in this case I wanted to see Maddison score a lot of goals, so this is the interpretation I am going for.

Klopp - Liverpool

Strengths and Weaknesses of a 433DM

Features

The 433Dm is a versatile system that is solid defensively. It is commonly used when a side has explosive wingers or inside forwards they can utilise. With 3 in attack, the system usually requires a role from central midfield attacking the halfspaces near the penalty area.

Top managers like Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola have used the system before, over time both managers have adapted it in different ways to show how versatile it can be.

In attack it has 2 wide attacking roles and a striker in the middle. Variations of this attacking pattern have included, wide playmakers who create overloads on one side of the pitch to release the inside forward diagonally on the opposite side. We’ve also had systems where the lone striker plays as a deeper creative role dropping deep to draw opposition teams out. Sides would then attack the channels or get behind the fullbacks.

In the last few years we’ve also seen variations of the 433DM that include using a ball playing central defender who pushes into central midfield areas to dictate play and seeing fullbacks inverting.

Ange Postecoglou uses a 433DM with two inverted wingbacks and two roaming central midfielders. 

Ultimately the 433 is one of the more commonly used systems in the world today because of its versatility.

Weaknesses

Perhaps its biggest weakness can be the lack of goals. If a 433DM is designed without considering how attack patterns can form centrally, then the system becomes a simple flank attacking formation, where the most common attack patterns involve crosses. When this develops, sides start running up low xG opportunities and since the fulbacks are surging up the pitch, it leaves the flanks vulnerable.

When this happens it can sometimes suffer from conceding cheap goals against the run of play. It requires very good technical players who can attack the wings and it needs a strong, smart central striker. In order to play the variations of the 433 it also requires fast fullbacks who can recover quickly if needed.

STYLE

The 433DM can be played with wingbacks or fullbacks. Its important to understand what each role brings:

Complete wingback - Aggressive, likely to dribble at defences, since it roams it can move centrally. It uses space very well.

Wingback - Mainly stays on the wing, unless you play someone on the flank opposite his preferred foot. May try to take on defences with a dribble and might lose the ball. Ideal in setups that do not feature any other players on the flank (eg 4312). 

Wingback Defend duty ; Underrated role, will hold position, does not try to be too adventurous and will go down the flanks when it makes sense to and isn’t too risky. It is a role that I would recommend  if someone only plans to get the wingback to cross from deep.

Fullback - A role that will pass inside and then run before waiting for the return pass. This is a very good role for pass and go tactics because he will not try and beat a player with a dribble.

Inverted Fullback - This role does play a bit like the wingback on defend duty, It will sit back in defence like a central defender. If the play shifts to his side of the pitch, he will go towards the flanks and if its not too risky he may try and go as far as the edge of the final third.  He however will not go towards the byeline, which makes him an excellent role for systems that want to attack exclusively with their wingers.

Inverted wingback - This role will move into the defensive midfield tier during buildup. If the player is a support duty he will also move slightly higher up the pitch during the midfield phase. It can now be used in dual defensive midfield scenarios, however they will be times when he just plays narrow like a wingback if there is no space for him to move into.

To play the LFC system I will require an IWB and a IFB in defence. Currently Andy Robertson plays the role of the IFB and Trent Alexander Arnold does the job of a IWB(S). 

Dominik Szoboszlai usually attacks through the half channel space on the right and can be seeing making final third entry runs near the edge of the penalty area.

Mac Allister may do the job of a 6 for his nation, but he hasn’t been too convincing as one for Liverpool. With injuries to Bajectic, Liverpool added Wataru Endo to the side. It is still early days for LFC so I have set up a midfield partnership that I thought would be the best for the side.

UNDERSTANDING COUNTERPRESSING AND THE PRESSING GAME

The best counterpressing sides have always attacked with narrow width. Bayern Munich and Liverpool in their prime both played narrow with counter-pressing.  When sides are playing defensive systems you have two options:

You can play your normal game and hope or try and draw them out. Electing to move the ball around and try and create goal scoring chances, or, you can try and push the game into their half put them under tremendous pressure and take advantage of any mistake they make. 

Counterpressing is about winning the ball back 12 seconds after you have lost it. This means they will avoid dropping back, but instead those players who lost the ball will attempt to win it back.  Here you want to take advantage of the fact that you already have your players in advanced positions.

To counter press well, sides like Bayern and LFC would always be a bit narrow in the attack so that the players would be closer together, their zonal marking areas would overlap, leading to wolfpack pressing.

When you increase width your are increasing the distance between players and increasing the chance that you might not win the ball back. So whenever I see a team sitting back and defending with a 5212 for example, I will push my defensive line up to maximum, reduce my width, setting pressing triggers to maximum, have my opposition instructions to trigger press the backline and hard tackling the backline on.

While Liverpool do not always ask their central defenders to dribble more with the ball, I do, especially against weaker sides that have set up to defend. 

In this tactic, there are several player instructions.

Since we want TAA to push out as an IWB, it could leave the 3 at the backline offset too much to the left. To counter this we get the BPD on the right to stay wider.

In attack we want the IF(A) to stay wider, close down more and mark tighter, we repeat the same with the other IF(A) on the left,. In attack we also ask the CF(A) to close down more and tackle harder.

The box to box midfielder has been told to dribble more, the mezzala is left alone along with the defensive midfielder.

Those are all the player instructions in use.

When we are playing against very defensive teams, I may elect to make these changes which I find useful.

If the opposition normally play with a deep defensive line ( information that can be found out from the data hub) I put our defensive line to maximum and change the role of the IF(A) on the right to a winger on attack with the same player instructions added.

- Increase width
- Add Work ball into box
- Play with a high block

Tactical Variations

If you add focus play through the middle and change the roles of the IF(A) to W(A) you make the Mezzala more explosive in the final third

PEP GUARDIOLA - CITY
In the absence of John Stones, City have had to adapt. They are playing slightly differently this season than they are now, but I will be using my interpretation of how they played last season to build this tactic. And it will feature John Stones as a Libero.
 

My City replication article is actually quite long so I will be brief here.

 

This is their buildup pattern this season notice how the backline is positioned. This season Kyle Walker looks as if he is being asked to play exclusively as a wingback.

Just before they enter their attacking phase, Rodri and Akanji can usually be seen around the opponent's box.


And when that happens the last man is almost always Gvardiol.  With Rodri in the middle and the two centre backs flanking its a 3-1 diamond shape.



I am after last season's system where John Stones was a libero, this system can easily be adapted to fit a wingback.

This version depends entirely on whom I want seeing scoring goals, the roles on the flanks are interchangeable. If i want to stretch defenses, its wingers, otherwise I can play with Inside forwards much like how they operate in real life.

De Zerbi - Brighton
Why stop at 3?
 

Brighton are playing an interesting system in real life. Two strikers who drop deep allowing their wider players to come inside and attack, a double pivot for control and a serious desire to play out from the back. It's a 424 in my eyes.

Some say they play a 4231 others say they play a 424. I say they try to have their cake and eat it too. This is a team that seeks to play a brand of football thats exciting to watch for an underdog. And to do that they like to draw teams in and slap them hard with goals. It doesn’t always work, but its definitely drawn some attention.

Not all sides are created equal, weaker sides sometimes sit back, soak and try and hit on the counter. However in top tier leagues like the premier league, this means sitting back and defending against top tier talent that do have the ability to create chances against a low block.

So what can some sides do, they can bait the press whilst sitting in a low block and then look to attack teams rapidly through the transition. When a team is sitting in a low block it will naturally create space behind the attacking team and between the lines.

Sitting in a low block and baiting the press is fairly difficult to do, because the amount of space a defending team can use is also reduced simply because there are now more players there.

How do you get from a low block into a counter transition.

A central defender could play balls into space, ie playing longer passes behind the opposition’s defensive line, but doing this will cause sides to potentially lose possession. Managers like Roberto De Zerbi, don’t seek to have their defenders play it long. He gets his defenders to transition the ball into the central areas of the pitch where they can generate more dangerous.

Build up play
In order to counter teams that might man mark or tight mark the defensive midfielders, Brighton’s side’s find ways to create a free man for the pass by drawing pressing players on to them. Brighton’s tempo at the back isn’t very fast, central defenders attract the press, the defensive midfielders drop into space so that they are available for the pass.

Brighton use a double pivot in midfield that move the ball up the pitch. So how can sides do this dismarking of the two pivots

1. Using a BPD to bring up the ball and draw the press
2. Using DMs that come deep to get the ball
3. Play out of defence

Brighton’s goal is to get the ball to central midfield from where their to strikers actually come deeper to draw defenders higher, this creates space for the wingers to attack. In central midfield, one of the or either defensive  midfielder needs to be able to spring the transition pass out wide.

This isn’t an attempt to replicate Brighton, but meant to be an explanation of it in FM terms, so how do I set this up on FM24, we can either use a 442 or 4231.  Either one can work.

First though let’s dive into some numbers from fbref.com to try and understand how the team plays in real life.

FORMATION or FORMATIONS?

Nearly everywhere you go its expressed notationally as a 4231. When watching the team play, to me at least, they resemble a 442 in defense and a 424 in attack, with both strikers sitting a lot deeper in the midfield phase with both wingers punching up.

De Zerbi looks to use the middle to release the wingers into space. They operate more as a midblock in most cases because they do not have the kind of players technically suited to breaking down stubborn sides in a low block.

If we go to fbref we can take any match report and dive into their numbers. This gives us some understanding of whats happening.

The numbers I normally seek are passing, progression, ball carries and defensive actions.

From the possession tab I can clearly see that Dahoud and Gross have most of their touches in the middle third, with Gross having more touches in the final third than Dahoud.  Under carries PrgC you will see that neither player dribbles with the ball more than 10 yards towards goal or into the final third.

When looking at the passing stats you will find that these two players do play quite a few passes into the final third with a good mix of passes that include short, long and medium passes.

n terms of defensive actions, nearly all their actions happen in the defensive and middle third areas of the pitch. 

Based on how Mitoma and March are set up by De Zerbi, they are always trying to attack the lines, whilst the two strikers frequently drop deeper to draw central defenders higher thereby creating even more space in the defensive third.

I would set the team up like this if I wanted to start with any attempt of setting this up on Football Manager 24
 

You could also set this up with 2 defensive midfielders in the middle and two wingbacks on defend duty. I don’t believe a formation should be a rigid interpretation of things, in fact depending on the situation you may want to ask your players to change the style of the system.

Double Volantes 
Risky - potentially has both players attacking the box
High chance that a lot of play could also go down the flanks
With technically capable players could dominate since the transition overloads the centre, but at the cost of leaving on flank space free

Defensive Midfielders
Orthodox - Predictable DMs will not flood the AM tier
Defensively more rigid

Wingbacks on defend
Provide protection down the flanks
More inclined to use the defensive midfielders as a passing option, thereby creating the potential for different attack patterns which could include balls through the middle

All the variations work, with wingbacks on defend you get more control, with wingbacks on support you could work ball into box and still trouble some teams. And with Volantes you end up flooding the third.

Away from home, I could play with wingbacks on defend duty and DMs utilising the box buildup created by the central defenders and the two defensive midfielders to control games. The attack pattern will see some attacks happen through the middle.

At home I can opt for any number of actions depending on the quality of the opposition.

In one of my games I decided to opt for this set up

The passmap it generated showed a lot of right sided focus involving Gross

When I compare this to Brighton’s passmap against Manchester United there aren’t a lot of dissimilarities, they almost look similar

Have fun playing football manager 24. My hope is that you understand the thought process that went behind creating these tactics, and if you didn't you can always find me and ask me here on the forums, or out there .... somewhere.

 

Questions to the Spurs formation. 

1) Overlap left and right with IWB. I can’t really see a difference on the pitch.?

2) It seems like you often prefer a DMs in the DM position in a 433DM system. Why? Could a BWM be as useful?

3) Could a PFa be as good as a AF ?

 

[Cloud9]

On 08/01/2024 at 03:13, NineCloudNine said:

I play a 4-3-3 with a IFB on the left, two BPDs, TAA on the right and a DLP-D. I usually have a W on the left side and an IF or IW on TAA’s side. AP and B2B in the middle.

If I make TAA an IWB, in possession he moves into DM strata and the DLP shunts over. This works as expected, the problem being that it’s quite a long way between those positions so he does a lot of running back and forth.

If I make him a CWB he bombs up and down the wing. He is still sometimes caught out of position when possession is lost and he’s upfield, but the DLP and the three defenders seem to cope better with the transition.

The other issue is that when possession is won when TAA is positioned at DR it takes a few moments for him to sprint into DM, when in fact I want him on the ball right away. I often see him arriving at his DM station just in time to see the DLP or the CMs play a killer ball to the forward line. As a CWB he’s ready to participate in the attack immediately, wherever he happens to be.

These are impressions from watching extended highlights, not full games and not studying data. I do win more with him as CWB, partly I suspect because crossing is powerful in the ME and he’s very good at that.

Your success with one role over the other will be due to your tactical setup. IWB is not an undervalued role in the ME by any means. 

Do you really want to pair a ball recycle with a IWB? I would suggest a simple DM(s) if you're struggling to get the IWB to work. A player providing width on the IWB's side could also help (CAR swap for BBM) and would provide some needed industry to your midfield. You could then play a BBM/CM(a)/MEZ in favor of the AP (another ball magnet) to keep some goal threat from the midfield. I am not a huge fan of an AP as an 8 in these setups, except as a tactical sub squad player.

As always, you may also find it helpful to lower the tempo, the IWB helps you to control the midfield and the game where as a traditional wingback excels in direct transitions. Tis like "counter" you can try removing as well. 

Edited January 20 by Cloud9

[dunk105]

On 19/10/2023 at 12:18, Rashidi said:

OTHER FORMATIONS
Its interesting to see close we can get to replicating some formations from real life, what follows is my interpretation of how some teams play. Its important to realise that managers can react to different opposition by changing their formation. They can also adapt their system when an injury happens. As always please feel free to use them as they are meant to be, sharing what can be done.

 

ANGE POSTECOGLOU - SPURS

I daresay this may become one of the most popular tactics for FM24, simply because of its attacking bent. In real life Spurs play a 433 with two inverted wingbacks, and 2 free eights in midfield who depending on the buildup can come in narrow or go out wide. The manager expects his team to play out of defence all the time and their fowards are expected to work the channels or come in from wider positions. They have been very attacking this season and also play quite high up the pitch.

Buildup Phase

|

In the midfield phase their free eights can go wide or narrow. I could provide defensive lines, heatmaps and key pass plots but that would make this an inordinately long post. I just want to be brief. 
 

 

 

Regarding this and the overlaps, does that mean you get to see the IWBs building up inside but then also able to go either way as we see with Porro and Udogie irl? Would be nice if SI allowed us as they did with Wingers to choose cut inside / go outside for IWBs so we get the build up phase narrow then they can go either way further up the pitch. Saying that did find that Wingers with cut inside really helps in recreating this setup rather than using IFs or IWs.

Tried similar but found I really struggle against 4231s and 5ATB formations, so settled on this (Madders has retired so liked the option to be flexible which side his role is). DM-D over BWM as I like the double-pivot formed with the IWB as the two mids go forward, and the W-U with cut inside is weighing in with not just assists but goals fed from the AP-A (AP-S is just too ineffective for me against teams with 2 DMs or 1 DM and an IWB):

It annoys me a little as its not pure Ange ball but find its more effective against a winder range of tactics, and would rather play a pressing forward but AF just works better.

Also a purists idea of Maddisons role, and BBM is set to sit wider but ended up like you using a CM-A, and Mezzala as even though the RPM was more solid defensively and I liked Maddison dropping deep as he sometimes does, as a whole in FM it doesnt quite work(did try changing the side of the BPD but that made no difference the RPM role just seems very hot or cold). BWM-S is great as feel that truly seems that postition playing in the way Bissouma did early on this season aggressively winning the ball and then breaking lines with dribbles.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18 by dunk105

[Tsuru]

Hi @Rashidi, I have been using your 4231 with two MCs in my Serbia YC and I really like the results and the way the team plays. I have been experimenting with a Poacher using "Drible Less" instead of a Target Forward, as my strikers here are almost all Poachers, and it seems to work very well.

However something is happening during the second half/end of the matches. Usually my team gets into a lead, we score and hold the lead until late in the match, and then the other team starts dominating us. On a game we opened 3-0 and won 3-2, on another one we opened 4-0 but were completely dominated, on a third one we suffered a very late goal at the end of the match and on a fourth one we scored 1-0, went to 1-1 and won due to a penalty.

I know that the team needs more time to become familiar with the tactic etc. but, speaking on a more generical way, which tactical changes would you suggest for us when we need to hold onto a lead? It seems that this is very important in FM 24, much more than it was on FM 23 for example.

Thank you!

[Rashidi]

@Tsuru When the match seems to turn away from you, do you spend any time looking at the roles and duties of the opposing team? I normally do and react.  Its important to recognise how a change in a role can impact your own system.  In all my systems now I never use "counter", at least I try not to. If I am the stronger side I normally elect to move teams around with "hold shape" and just use my tactics roles and duties to control the spaces so that in the event that we lose the ball in possession, we are suitably positioned to win it back.

The positional play feature on FM is very strong, in fact too strong imho for people who can spot how a role/duty change can impact the opposition. I will release a video and do a post on the forums within the next few days to explain this in a bit more detail.

[Tsuru]

2 horas atrás, Rashidi disse:

@Tsuru When the match seems to turn away from you, do you spend any time looking at the roles and duties of the opposing team? I normally do and react.  Its important to recognise how a change in a role can impact your own system.  In all my systems now I never use "counter", at least I try not to. If I am the stronger side I normally elect to move teams around with "hold shape" and just use my tactics roles and duties to control the spaces so that in the event that we lose the ball in possession, we are suitably positioned to win it back.

The positional play feature on FM is very strong, in fact too strong imho for people who can spot how a role/duty change can impact the opposition. I will release a video and do a post on the forums within the next few days to explain this in a bit more detail.

Thank you @Rashidi this will be very helpful. I will also try to experiment myself with some roles and duties change and the use of Hold Shape too and try to learn from experience. I have always played FM trying to find a perfect tactic that works in all situations, the perspective of being adaptative seems a new and fun way to play it.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Rashidi:

@Tsuru When the match seems to turn away from you, do you spend any time looking at the roles and duties of the opposing team? I normally do and react.  Its important to recognise how a change in a role can impact your own system.  In all my systems now I never use "counter", at least I try not to. If I am the stronger side I normally elect to move teams around with "hold shape" and just use my tactics roles and duties to control the spaces so that in the event that we lose the ball in possession, we are suitably positioned to win it back.

The positional play feature on FM is very strong, in fact too strong imho for people who can spot how a role/duty change can impact the opposition. I will release a video and do a post on the forums within the next few days to explain this in a bit more detail.

This would be of great help! Maybe you could also show how to use this with less capable teams as well as with stronger teams

[bababooey]

I feel like this topic needs to be stickied. The amount of excellent information in here is unparalleled for a single thread.

[batsy23]

Perfect talk but in the game it doesn't work. My experience unfortunately says you can't control anything, just press everywhere and run. That's it, that's fm24 unfortunately.

[HanziZoloman]

vor einer Stunde schrieb batsy23:

Perfect talk but in the game it doesn't work. My experience unfortunately says you can't control anything, just press everywhere and run. That's it, that's fm24 unfortunately.

At the moment it’s the same with me but the pros get it running. It’s just FM „fun“