I simulated to 2039 on FM23 - my observations

[LeoFM]

I chose one playable league (Sweden) and then let the game run over night and stopped the simulation this morning at January 1st 2039.

I chose a pretty large player pool at the beginning, about 120 000 players.

My observations:

1. The player pool is now 114 000 players, so the number of newgens generated seem to be fairly balanced.

2. Leading transfers: 

Spoiler

Thirteen €100m+ transfers by 2039. Interesting to see a club like KRC Genk receive €102M for a player.

3. Top players: 

8 out of the 12 top players are real players. 

Spoiler

The top 5 players in the world shown in the spoiler all have something thing in common: very high anticipation, composure and decisions (all five players had 20 decisions!). I also want to say that they are all a bit underwhelming in their technical attributes. Surely you would expect Endrick and Musiala to have more 16+ technicals?

4. Newgen fullbacks, crossing still an issue?

There are only 19 newgen fullbacks with 13 or higher crossing in the entire database. Only 2 newgens have 14 crossing. Not a single fullback have 15 or higher crossing.

5. Centre backs having high marking and low heading:

The four centre backs in the 'top players' list all had heading lower than 14 and marking higher than 16.

6. There are only 9 wonderkids.

This number seems pretty low for me, considering the game starts out with 34 wonderkids.

7. The number of players with elite/world class/legendary media description:

As I do not have access to an in game editor this is sort of a way of counting how many top players there are in the database.

At the start of the game, there was 68 elite, 20 world class and 8 legendary players (total of 96).

At 2039, there is 35 elite, 11 world class and 6 legendary players (total of 52).

So the number of 'top' players decreased by 46% in 17 years. 

Now I did only have one league loaded and I don't know what impact that had on the development of footballers around the world, but surely this is not balanced. It doesn't matter if the top leagues are not loaded or not, their players should develop. It could also be a case of just having players spawn with too low PA looking at the number of wonderkids, but also a player needs to reach a certain CA to be considered a wonderkid I think. All in all, I my observation is that player development seems to be too slow in FM23.

8. The only league I had loaded (Swedish Allsvenskan) rose to 8th place in the European league rankings.

This is not too surprising as it has been the case in previous FM editions that the game generally will make the loaded leagues stronger than the onloaded.

9. In the 2024/25 season, the Champions League changed to its new format. (which made me pretty sad)

Spoiler

10. Erling Haaland did not dominate world football.

He "only" won the Ballon d'Or four times.

Spoiler

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by LeoFM

[el_manayer]

Very nice work, thanks. I would be interested to see something similar with all top leagues loaded, to compare if the issues you mentioned are tied to only having one league loaded or not.

Edited October 21, 2022 by el_manayer

[LeoFM]

4 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

Very nice work, thanks. I would be interesting to do something similar with all top leagues loaded, to compare if the issues you mentioned are tied to only having one league loaded or not.

Definitely!

[Rashidi]

It’s still early days long term progression is one thing that SI will be focused on addressing in the next 2 weeks.

[Daveincid]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb el_manayer:

Very nice work, thanks. I would be interesting to do something similar with all top leagues loaded, to compare if the issues you mentioned are tied to only having one league loaded or not.

work in progress (but yeah, most likely it's down to only 1 loaded league)

Edited October 21, 2022 by Daveincid

[LeoFM]

I have gathered some data with respect to the attributes of outfield players with media description elite/world class/legendary in 2022 vs 2039.
I did observe that the technical development of players was very poor in 2039 in comparison to 2022.
I wanted to see just how big the difference was, so I exported all top outfield players attributes to excel and then took the average attribute value with both the 2022 set (89 players) and the 2039 set (52 players).

Here are my results:

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2022:

Physicals
Acceleration: 14.0
Agility: 13.8
Balance: 14.4
Jumping reach: 11.3
Natural fitness: 15.1
Pace: 14.1
Stamina: 14.5
Strength: 12.9

Mentals
Aggression: 12.4
Anticipation: 15.5
Bravery: 13.5
Composure: 15.1
Concentration: 13.6
Decisions: 14.5
Determination: 15.8
Flair: 14.3
Leadership: 12.4
Off the ball: 14.4
Positioning: 10.9
Teamwork: 14.5
Vision: 14.8
Work rate: 14.1

Technicals
Corners: 10.0
Crossing: 12.2
Dribbling: 14.2
Finishing: 12.7
First touch: 15.6
Free kicks: 11.4
Heading: 11.7
Long shots: 12.5
Long throws: 6.0
Marking: 9.2
Passing: 15.2
Penalties: 12.8
Tackling: 15.8

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2039:
Difference from 2022 in parentheses, any negative change more than 1 attribute point in red, any positive change more than 1 attribute point in green

Physicals
Acceleration: 12.4 (-1.6)
Agility: 13.4 (-0.4)
Balance: 14.3 (-0.1)
Jumping reach: 11.3 (±0)
Natural fitness: 13.4 (-1.7)
Pace: 13.0 (-1.1)
Stamina: 15.5 (+1.0)
Strength: 14.8 (+1.9)

Mentals
Aggression: 11.9 (+0.5)
Anticipation: 18.5 (+3.0)
Bravery: 12.9 (+0.6)
Composure: 16.6 (+1.5)
Concentration: 15.6 (+2.0)
Decisions: 17.5 (+3.0)
Determination: 15.3 (+0.5)
Flair: 11.0 (-3.3)
Leadership: 17.9 (+5.5) !
Off the ball: 12.1 (-2.3)
Positioning: 14.6 (+3.7)
Teamwork: 11.8 (-2.7)
Vision: 14.8 (±0)
Work rate: 12.0 (-2.1)

Technicals
Corners: 8.1 (-1.9)
Crossing: 6.2 (-6.0) !
Dribbling: 8.7 (-5.5) !
Finishing: 5.6 (-7.1) ! (jesus christ)
First touch: 11.4 (-4.2)
Free kicks: 8.7 (-2.7)
Heading: 8.9 (-2.8)
Long shots: 8.6 (-3.9)
Long throws: 6.9 (+0.9)
Marking: 12.6 (+3.4)
Passing: 11.2 (-4.0)
Penalties: 8.5 (-4.3)
Tackling: 9.8 (-6.0) !

The physical attributes are pretty balanced (maybe the quickness should be a bit higher for 2039).
Anticipation, decisions, leadership and positioning are the standout mentals in terms of being too high for the 2039 group, with flair, off the ball, teamwork and work rate being the opposite of that.
As for the technicals, this is where the extremes start.
Crossing, dribbling, finishing, first touch, passing, penalties and tackling all being on average more than 4 attributes points lower for the 2039 group than the 2022 group. Marking is the only attributes that was higher for the 2039 group by a significant margin.

My thoughts:
Obviously this is maybe not the perfect example and test as I am using the group of top players in 2022 as some kind of benchmark.
Future generations of top footballers will of course not have the exact same set of attributes as the current one, so in my opinion a difference of less than 1 attribute point is expected and realistic.
I hope this data can be helpful for SI in the process of making the long term player development in FM23 the best ever!

I also want to mention that only one league was loaded while simulating, which could have impacted the results. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, because player development should be realistic either way. But I will try this again with the top leagues loaded just to see if the results are different!

Edited October 21, 2022 by LeoFM

[dannyfc]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It’s still early days long term progression is one thing that SI will be focused on addressing in the next 2 weeks.

Is that official or just speculation?

Doesn't feel like the type of thing that can be easily rebalanced within two weeks imo, but would be pleasantly surprised if true. Not that it's especially poor at the moment, just that I wouldn't expect it to be massively different at release unless they've specifically stated this.  

[DarJ]

17 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

I have gathered some data with respect to the attributes of outfield players with media description elite/world class/legendary in 2022 vs 2039.
I did observe that the technical development of players was very poor in 2039 in comparison to 2022.
I wanted to see just how big the difference was, so I exported all top outfield players attributes to excel and then took the average attribute value with both the 2022 set (89 players) and the 2039 set (52 players).

Here are my results:

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2022:

Physicals
Acceleration: 14.0
Agility: 13.8
Balance: 14.4
Jumping reach: 11.3
Natural fitness: 15.1
Pace: 14.1
Stamina: 14.5
Strength: 12.9

Mentals
Aggression: 12.4
Anticipation: 15.5
Bravery: 13.5
Composure: 15.1
Concentration: 13.6
Decisions: 14.5
Determination: 15.8
Flair: 14.3
Leadership: 12.4
Off the ball: 14.4
Positioning: 10.9
Teamwork: 14.5
Vision: 14.8
Work rate: 14.1

Technicals
Corners: 10.0
Crossing: 12.2
Dribbling: 14.2
Finishing: 12.7
First touch: 15.6
Free kicks: 11.4
Heading: 11.7
Long shots: 12.5
Long throws: 6.0
Marking: 9.2
Passing: 15.2
Penalties: 12.8
Tackling: 15.8

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2039:
Difference from 2022 in parentheses, any negative change more than 1 attribute point in red, any positive change more than 1 attribute point in green

Physicals
Acceleration: 12.4 (-1.6)
Agility: 13.4 (-0.4)
Balance: 14.3 (-0.1)
Jumping reach: 11.3 (±0)
Natural fitness: 13.4 (-1.7)
Pace: 13.0 (-1.1)
Stamina: 15.5 (+1.0)
Strength: 14.8 (+1.9)

Mentals
Aggression: 11.9 (+0.5)
Anticipation: 18.5 (+3.0)
Bravery: 12.9 (+0.6)
Composure: 16.6 (+1.5)
Concentration: 15.6 (+2.0)
Decisions: 17.5 (+3.0)
Determination: 15.3 (+0.5)
Flair: 11.0 (-3.3)
Leadership: 17.9 (+5.5) !
Off the ball: 12.1 (-2.3)
Positioning: 14.6 (+3.7)
Teamwork: 11.8 (-2.7)
Vision: 14.8 (±0)
Work rate: 12.0 (-2.1)

Technicals
Corners: 8.1 (-1.9)
Crossing: 6.2 (-6.0) !
Dribbling: 8.7 (-5.5) !
Finishing: 5.6 (-7.1) ! (jesus christ)
First touch: 11.4 (-4.2)
Free kicks: 8.7 (-2.7)
Heading: 8.9 (-2.8)
Long shots: 8.6 (-3.9)
Long throws: 6.9 (+0.9)
Marking: 12.6 (+3.4)
Passing: 11.2 (-4.0)
Penalties: 8.5 (-4.3)
Tackling: 9.8 (-6.0) !

The physical attributes are pretty balanced (maybe the quickness should be a bit higher for 2039).
Anticipation, decisions, leadership and positioning are the standout mentals in terms of being too high for the 2039 group, with flair, off the ball, teamwork and work rate being the opposite of that.
As for the technicals, this is where the extremes start.
Crossing, dribbling, finishing, first touch, passing, penalties and tackling all being on average more than 4 attributes points lower for the 2039 group than the 2022 group. Marking is the only attributes that was higher for the 2039 group by a significant margin.

My thoughts:
Obviously this is maybe not the perfect example and test as I am using the group of top players in 2022 as some kind of benchmark.
Future generations of top footballers will of course not have the exact same set of attributes as the current one, so in my opinion a difference of less than 1 attribute point is expected and realistic.
I hope this data can be helpful for SI in the process of making the long term player development in FM23 the best ever!

I also want to mention that only one league was loaded while simulating, which could have impacted the results. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, because player development should be realistic either way. But I will try this again with the top leagues loaded just to see if the results are different!

I think it’s a known issue that technical attributes don’t go up as much

[abcdf]

24 minuti fa, LeoFM ha scritto:

I have gathered some data with respect to the attributes of outfield players with media description elite/world class/legendary in 2022 vs 2039.
I did observe that the technical development of players was very poor in 2039 in comparison to 2022.
I wanted to see just how big the difference was, so I exported all top outfield players attributes to excel and then took the average attribute value with both the 2022 set (89 players) and the 2039 set (52 players).

Here are my results:

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2022:

Physicals
Acceleration: 14.0
Agility: 13.8
Balance: 14.4
Jumping reach: 11.3
Natural fitness: 15.1
Pace: 14.1
Stamina: 14.5
Strength: 12.9

Mentals
Aggression: 12.4
Anticipation: 15.5
Bravery: 13.5
Composure: 15.1
Concentration: 13.6
Decisions: 14.5
Determination: 15.8
Flair: 14.3
Leadership: 12.4
Off the ball: 14.4
Positioning: 10.9
Teamwork: 14.5
Vision: 14.8
Work rate: 14.1

Technicals
Corners: 10.0
Crossing: 12.2
Dribbling: 14.2
Finishing: 12.7
First touch: 15.6
Free kicks: 11.4
Heading: 11.7
Long shots: 12.5
Long throws: 6.0
Marking: 9.2
Passing: 15.2
Penalties: 12.8
Tackling: 15.8

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2039:
Difference from 2022 in parentheses, any negative change more than 1 attribute point in red, any positive change more than 1 attribute point in green

Physicals
Acceleration: 12.4 (-1.6)
Agility: 13.4 (-0.4)
Balance: 14.3 (-0.1)
Jumping reach: 11.3 (±0)
Natural fitness: 13.4 (-1.7)
Pace: 13.0 (-1.1)
Stamina: 15.5 (+1.0)
Strength: 14.8 (+1.9)

Mentals
Aggression: 11.9 (+0.5)
Anticipation: 18.5 (+3.0)
Bravery: 12.9 (+0.6)
Composure: 16.6 (+1.5)
Concentration: 15.6 (+2.0)
Decisions: 17.5 (+3.0)
Determination: 15.3 (+0.5)
Flair: 11.0 (-3.3)
Leadership: 17.9 (+5.5) !
Off the ball: 12.1 (-2.3)
Positioning: 14.6 (+3.7)
Teamwork: 11.8 (-2.7)
Vision: 14.8 (±0)
Work rate: 12.0 (-2.1)

Technicals
Corners: 8.1 (-1.9)
Crossing: 6.2 (-6.0) !
Dribbling: 8.7 (-5.5) !
Finishing: 5.6 (-7.1) ! (jesus christ)
First touch: 11.4 (-4.2)
Free kicks: 8.7 (-2.7)
Heading: 8.9 (-2.8)
Long shots: 8.6 (-3.9)
Long throws: 6.9 (+0.9)
Marking: 12.6 (+3.4)
Passing: 11.2 (-4.0)
Penalties: 8.5 (-4.3)
Tackling: 9.8 (-6.0) !

The physical attributes are pretty balanced (maybe the quickness should be a bit higher for 2039).
Anticipation, decisions, leadership and positioning are the standout mentals in terms of being too high for the 2039 group, with flair, off the ball, teamwork and work rate being the opposite of that.
As for the technicals, this is where the extremes start.
Crossing, dribbling, finishing, first touch, passing, penalties and tackling all being on average more than 4 attributes points lower for the 2039 group than the 2022 group. Marking is the only attributes that was higher for the 2039 group by a significant margin.

My thoughts:
Obviously this is maybe not the perfect example and test as I am using the group of top players in 2022 as some kind of benchmark.
Future generations of top footballers will of course not have the exact same set of attributes as the current one, so in my opinion a difference of less than 1 attribute point is expected and realistic.
I hope this data can be helpful for SI in the process of making the long term player development in FM23 the best ever!

I also want to mention that only one league was loaded while simulating, which could have impacted the results. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, because player development should be realistic either way. But I will try this again with the top leagues loaded just to see if the results are different!

Players DO NOT develop technically!! Huge game breaking bug here. I attach some screenshots of the development of Endrick, one of the biggest wonderkids in the game, from 2022 to 2032 to prove my point.

Look at his stats. Technicals increased by max 1-2 points while mentals such as Composure, Decisions, Off the ball and Vision went trough the roof. Also the increase in physical is too big with respect to his technical attributes.

Please SI fix this!! It is completely unrealistic to have a database full of techically horrendous players.

 

 

[Johnny Ace]

Post your save and findings on the Bug Tracker @abcdf. Making the point here won't help the issue be resolved 

[abcdf]

2 minuti fa, Johnny Ace ha scritto:

Post your save and findings on the Bug Tracker @abcdf. Making the point here won't help the issue be resolved 

Can you suggest me the most approriate bug tracker section for this issue?

[abcdf]

38 minuti fa, LeoFM ha scritto:

I have gathered some data with respect to the attributes of outfield players with media description elite/world class/legendary in 2022 vs 2039.
I did observe that the technical development of players was very poor in 2039 in comparison to 2022.
I wanted to see just how big the difference was, so I exported all top outfield players attributes to excel and then took the average attribute value with both the 2022 set (89 players) and the 2039 set (52 players).

Here are my results:

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2022:

Physicals
Acceleration: 14.0
Agility: 13.8
Balance: 14.4
Jumping reach: 11.3
Natural fitness: 15.1
Pace: 14.1
Stamina: 14.5
Strength: 12.9

Mentals
Aggression: 12.4
Anticipation: 15.5
Bravery: 13.5
Composure: 15.1
Concentration: 13.6
Decisions: 14.5
Determination: 15.8
Flair: 14.3
Leadership: 12.4
Off the ball: 14.4
Positioning: 10.9
Teamwork: 14.5
Vision: 14.8
Work rate: 14.1

Technicals
Corners: 10.0
Crossing: 12.2
Dribbling: 14.2
Finishing: 12.7
First touch: 15.6
Free kicks: 11.4
Heading: 11.7
Long shots: 12.5
Long throws: 6.0
Marking: 9.2
Passing: 15.2
Penalties: 12.8
Tackling: 15.8

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2039:
Difference from 2022 in parentheses, any negative change more than 1 attribute point in red, any positive change more than 1 attribute point in green

Physicals
Acceleration: 12.4 (-1.6)
Agility: 13.4 (-0.4)
Balance: 14.3 (-0.1)
Jumping reach: 11.3 (±0)
Natural fitness: 13.4 (-1.7)
Pace: 13.0 (-1.1)
Stamina: 15.5 (+1.0)
Strength: 14.8 (+1.9)

Mentals
Aggression: 11.9 (+0.5)
Anticipation: 18.5 (+3.0)
Bravery: 12.9 (+0.6)
Composure: 16.6 (+1.5)
Concentration: 15.6 (+2.0)
Decisions: 17.5 (+3.0)
Determination: 15.3 (+0.5)
Flair: 11.0 (-3.3)
Leadership: 17.9 (+5.5) !
Off the ball: 12.1 (-2.3)
Positioning: 14.6 (+3.7)
Teamwork: 11.8 (-2.7)
Vision: 14.8 (±0)
Work rate: 12.0 (-2.1)

Technicals
Corners: 8.1 (-1.9)
Crossing: 6.2 (-6.0) !
Dribbling: 8.7 (-5.5) !
Finishing: 5.6 (-7.1) ! (jesus christ)
First touch: 11.4 (-4.2)
Free kicks: 8.7 (-2.7)
Heading: 8.9 (-2.8)
Long shots: 8.6 (-3.9)
Long throws: 6.9 (+0.9)
Marking: 12.6 (+3.4)
Passing: 11.2 (-4.0)
Penalties: 8.5 (-4.3)
Tackling: 9.8 (-6.0) !

The physical attributes are pretty balanced (maybe the quickness should be a bit higher for 2039).
Anticipation, decisions, leadership and positioning are the standout mentals in terms of being too high for the 2039 group, with flair, off the ball, teamwork and work rate being the opposite of that.
As for the technicals, this is where the extremes start.
Crossing, dribbling, finishing, first touch, passing, penalties and tackling all being on average more than 4 attributes points lower for the 2039 group than the 2022 group. Marking is the only attributes that was higher for the 2039 group by a significant margin.

My thoughts:
Obviously this is maybe not the perfect example and test as I am using the group of top players in 2022 as some kind of benchmark.
Future generations of top footballers will of course not have the exact same set of attributes as the current one, so in my opinion a difference of less than 1 attribute point is expected and realistic.
I hope this data can be helpful for SI in the process of making the long term player development in FM23 the best ever!

I also want to mention that only one league was loaded while simulating, which could have impacted the results. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, because player development should be realistic either way. But I will try this again with the top leagues loaded just to see if the results are different!

Could you post this on the bug tracker section if you did not already? It will help speeding up the process of fixing the issue. I will post my findings as well

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Can you suggest me the most approriate bug tracker section for this issue?

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-early-access-beta-bugs-tracker/759_all-other-issues/

 

That's probably the best place 

[LeoFM]

Yeah I'll bring this up on the bug tracker don't worry

[abcdf]

16 minuti fa, LeoFM ha scritto:

Yeah I'll bring this up on the bug tracker don't worry

Opened a post on the issue

 

[saihtam]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It’s still early days long term progression is one thing that SI will be focused on addressing in the next 2 weeks.

I mean. Fundamentals are done, no gaming company is able to make defined changes in 2 weeks to so complex process.

[JAwtunes]

@LeoFMgood work fella. This is the kind of feedback I'm sure any developer hopes to receive during a beta test play. The mentals Vs physicals Vs technicals makes for very interesting reading

[LeoFM]

"As always, we’ve done more work to improve newgen generation and balance the game world for those who, like me, enjoy playing with long-term saves." - Those are the words of Miles Jacobson three days ago in the FMFC blog post about new features and QOL changes.

Now I understand that we are still in the early beta phase and bugs are going to occur.
But I cannot understand how SI can publicly announce that the state of long-term game world in FM23 was balanced three days ago only for them to today consider it a known issue.

I mean, the only testing that was needed for this was to boot up a save and simulate a number of seasons. That's it. Do SI just not test their own game or what (jk)?
If you already know that it's not working as it should, do not announce it as balanced, at least say it's under development.
I don't want to come across as moaning, I fully respect the implications of developing a game like FM but I care too much about this game to just ignore this.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted the statement from Miles in the blog post, it's actually quite hard to decipher what is meant in that sentence, but I think this (newgen attributes being realistic and balanced in the future) is what he meant.

Edited October 21, 2022 by LeoFM

[CFuller]

32 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

"As always, we’ve done more work to improve newgen generation and balance the game world for those who, like me, enjoy playing with long-term saves." - Those are the words of Miles Jacobson three days ago in the FMFC blog post about new features and QOL changes.

Now I understand that we are still in the early beta phase and bugs are going to occur.
But I cannot understand how SI can publicly announce that the state of long-term game world in FM23 was balanced three days ago only for them to today consider it a known issue.

To be fair, saying "we've done more work to balance game worlds" is not exactly the same thing as saying "game worlds are now balanced". Perhaps they're still working on it (and if your results are anything to go by, there is still a lot of work to do).

But otherwise, good job on finding these issues nice and early in the beta. I was really put off starting a long-term FM22 save because game worlds were so unbalanced, and clubs/nations would keep playing older players instead of developing younger talent. If this is still happening on FM23, I'll be very disappointed.

The one thing I would suggest is looking at the world reputation of the players in the database. This was my biggest gripe on FM22 - that young players' reputations were not increasing fast enough relative to their abilities. I think this is a big reason why younger players kept getting overlooked, and why top clubs were often stacked with 30-somethings. I'm pretty sure that, in the FM22 feedback thread, I likened it to if Gareth Southgate had refused to call up Jude Bellingham for England until he turned 25 (six years from now) because he would rather pick a 35-year-old Jonjo Shelvey.

I'm also pretty sure (please correct me if I'm wrong) that a high world reputation plays a part in getting called a Wonderkid or an Elite/World-Class player. That could be another reason why you're not seeing a lot of these players in 2039.

Edited October 21, 2022 by CFuller

[Tjorven]

Extremely disappointing findings. 

Basically ruins the game for me when newgens attributes and player developement are so off. Once again. 

Fullback attributes for newgens for example have been off for I dont know how many years now...

[Harrymcintyre]

I wouldn’t be too worried, they must collect an absolute tonne of data during these 2 weeks to work with and it’s usually all very solid and polished up by actual release day. They do a great job. 

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

12 hours ago, Harrymcintyre said:

I wouldn’t be too worried, they must collect an absolute tonne of data during these 2 weeks to work with and it’s usually all very solid and polished up by actual release day. They do a great job. 

Polished up yes, but not fixed which is frustrating. Having played this game for 2 decades now I think this has always been an issue with long term saves. Has there been an FM edition that hasn't had the AI not promoting new talent problem?

[Andrew James]

Hi all, just wanted to confirm that the balancing with attribute progression is a known issue and under review. 

Future fixes will be save game compatible and will affect player progression from that point forward, rather than retrospectively alter any attributes. 

Player progression is a complex area and delicate balancing act with nearly every other part of the game feeding into it one way or another, so your patience is greatly appreciated while we iron out the issues. Results can also be impacted by save game and database setups, so thanks for the feedback so far and if you have any extreme examples or new info, a post on the bug tracker is always welcomed

Thanks! 

[LeoFM]

23 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi all, just wanted to confirm that the balancing with attribute progression is a known issue and under review. 

Future fixes will be save game compatible and will affect player progression from that point forward, rather than retrospectively alter any attributes. 

Player progression is a complex area and delicate balancing act with nearly every other part of the game feeding into it one way or another, so your patience is greatly appreciated while we iron out the issues. Results can also be impacted by save game and database setups, so thanks for the feedback so far and if you have any extreme examples or new info, a post on the bug tracker is always welcomed

Thanks! 

Thanks Andrew! Nice to hear that the team is working on this and that the fix will be save game compatible.

[LeoFM]

I am currently in the process of simulating to 2039 on a new save with a different database setup. I want to measure the impact loaded leagues potentially have on long term player development, compared to only having one league loaded as I did in my first simulation.

The database setup is shown in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

The thing is that my computer is pretty weak and this sim is progressing slowly for me, so I've only come as far as 2030 in 23 hours of simulation. 

So I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to help me reach the year 2039 faster. I.E, I will upload my save file, then someone with a beefier computer than me simulates to Jan 1st 2039 and then sends the save file to me?
Alternatively, maybe someone has already simulated to around 2035-40 with a similar database setup and would be willing to upload their save for the sake of the test? 

Edited October 22, 2022 by LeoFM

[molsen]

Has anybody heard if long term AI player development has been improved for FM23? In past games (FM22 included) when you get 5-6 years into the game, its only post-30 players dominating the game. Also reported by Rashidi.

[Yuko]

@LeoFM nice work.

 

Can you give show us the winners of the main competitions? 

World Cup, Euro, continental cups and big five leagues?

[LeoFM]

This is the best player in the world at 2035 in my new simulation, pretty much sums up the issue with player development. 

(Not saying there shouldn't be players with underdeveloped technicals compared to mentals/physicals as they do exist IRL but there is just too much of this in FM23)

Edited October 23, 2022 by LeoFM

[KeiranShikari]

I'm sure he didn't load a large database so the results are to be taken with a grain of salt but it seems the like the AI teams will fluctuate significantly more than in previous games.

[obasa_G]

1 hour ago, KeiranShikari said:

I'm sure he didn't load a large database so the results are to be taken with a grain of salt but it seems the like the AI teams will fluctuate significantly more than in previous games.

Downloaded the save. I think the reason for the strange results is that all leagues (English, French, Germany, Irish, Italian, Scottish and Spanish) apart from the Welsh JD Cymru league are view only.

[Sassafras]

A game breaking issue and I'm holding out on buying to see if it's fixed first. I've got a long term save on FM19, and although some attributes are too heavily represented, it's nothing like this. Big disappointment.

[LeoFM]

13 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

Downloaded the save. I think the reason for the strange results is that all leagues (English, French, Germany, Irish, Italian, Scottish and Spanish) apart from the Welsh JD Cymru league are view only.

Did he upload the save? I'm interested in having a look at it

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, KeiranShikari said:

I'm sure he didn't load a large database so the results are to be taken with a grain of salt but it seems the like the AI teams will fluctuate significantly more than in previous games.

These type of saves don’t provide anything unless all leagues are on playable.

[DMaster2]

6 ore fa, LeoFM ha scritto:

This is the best player in the world at 2035 in my new simulation, pretty much sums up the issue with player development. 

(Not saying there shouldn't be players with underdeveloped technicals compared to mentals/physicals as they do exist IRL but there is just too much of this in FM23)

As someone that enjoy developing youth and do build a nation this is a game breaking bug that i hope will get a proper fix by release.

[grasu]

I hate to be "that guy" but this harkens back to the days of FM 2014 (IIRC) when the new player interactions broke the transfer market and a pissed off, 27-year-old, Messi could be picked up for free or for 30 million. That issue was never fixed in that version of the game and I do remember that it took them several releases before they managed to iron that issue out from all leagues.  Sure, the major leagues, and the major offenders were quickly fixed, so no more Messi for under 30 million, but I would argue that the AI is still too passive in signing contract extension with their players and the amount of, high reputation, high value, players available on Bosmans is (still) not fixed. 

I'm hoping this bug won't have the same lifecycle...

[xkvicd]

21 hours ago, LeoFM said:

This is the best player in the world at 2035 in my new simulation, pretty much sums up the issue with player development. 

(Not saying there shouldn't be players with underdeveloped technicals compared to mentals/physicals as they do exist IRL but there is just too much of this in FM23)

How do the best goalies look like? Do they develop technicals?

[Mcfc1894]

What's the average age of squads is it still bloated with loads of 30+ year olds

[SupraFlush]

@LeoFMDo you want me to do a holiday save? I have a decent computer and no will to play until they fix the player development. Just tell me what to load and for how long to sim and I'll do it

[LeoFM]

47 minutes ago, SupraFlush said:

@LeoFMDo you want me to do a holiday save? I have a decent computer and no will to play until they fix the player development. Just tell me what to load and for how long to sim and I'll do it

Well currently my priority is getting a save with some of the top leagues loaded to January 1st 2039 to compare the results to my first sim with only one league loaded. Would really appreciate if you helped me get that save to 2039!

Download the save from the link below and holiday until Jan 1st 2039 (do not add/remove any leagues), then you can send me the save through mediafire or whatever file uploading tool you want.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/l47v013iiqc8nw2/FM23_Player_Development_Test_Top_Leagues_Loaded.zip/file

How long would it take you to holiday to 2039 with all leagues loaded? That would be my second priority since it would measure the affect of playable leagues to a greater degree of accuracy.
Tbh I don't know how much more testing there is needed to be done on this, since SI have already confirmed they are working on a fix. But I think it could be good to gather some more data so that the FM community gets to know exactly how much this bug affects long term saves is and if there is anything we can do to manage the impact of it. I'm of course expecting SI to put out a patch for this in the following week so would be nice to have some data to compare that to as well.

Thanks a lot for helping out!

Edited October 24, 2022 by LeoFM

[SupraFlush]

11 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

Well currently my priority is getting a save with some of the top leagues loaded to January 1st 2039 to compare the results to my first sim with only one league loaded. Would really appreciate if you helped me get that save to 2039!

Download the save from the link below and holiday until Jan 1st 2039 (do not add/remove any leagues), then you can send me the save through mediafire or whatever file uploading tool you want.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/l47v013iiqc8nw2/FM23_Player_Development_Test_Top_Leagues_Loaded.zip/file

How long would it take you to holiday to 2039 with all leagues loaded? That would be my second priority since it would measure the affect of playable leagues to a greater degree of accuracy.
Tbh I don't know how much more testing there is needed to be done on this, since SI have already confirmed they are working on a fix. But I think it could be good to gather some more data so that the FM community gets to know exactly how much this bug affects long term saves is and if there is anything we can do to manage the impact of it. I'm of course expecting SI to put out a patch for this in the following week so would be nice to have some data to compare that to as well.

Thanks a lot for helping out!

I'm not sure how long it will take, but I'll try to sim all leagues later tonight. I'll start with the one you uploaded and then we'll see how long that takes!

Do you want me to load ALL leagues or just the top league in every country? Also, do you want me to do a large database with nothing else loaded, or should I load all players from all continents as well? Sorry, haven't done many experiments with loading several leagues and holidaying lol.

Your save is holidaying now at least, I'll post the link here when I'm done!

[LeoFM]

10 minutes ago, SupraFlush said:

I'm not sure how long it will take, but I'll try to sim all leagues later tonight. I'll start with the one you uploaded and then we'll see how long that takes!

Do you want me to load ALL leagues or just the top league in every country? Also, do you want me to do a large database with nothing else loaded, or should I load all players from all continents as well? Sorry, haven't done many experiments with loading several leagues and holidaying lol.

Your save is holidaying now at least, I'll post the link here when I'm done!

All leagues fron every country, however if you notice the sim is too slow then do just the top flights (with maybe 2nd tier in the big five nations).

As for the player database, you can select (in the advanced section) every continent and tick all boxes except for "Players based in nation" and "Players of nationality". This is what I used for my previous simulation.

Thanks again, good work!

[SupraFlush]

2 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

All leagues fron every country, however if you notice the sim is too slow then do just the top flights (with maybe 2nd tier in the big five nations).

As for the player database, you can select (in the advanced section) every continent and tick all boxes except for "Players based in nation" and "Players of nationality". This is what I used for my previous simulation.

Thanks again, good work!

Perfect! Your save will definitely be done tonight, and after that I'll start on the big one and let that one run over the night. I'll update how it looks tomorrow after work.

[LeoFM]

3 hours ago, xkvicd said:

How do the best goalies look like? Do they develop technicals?

From what I've seen so far, they actually develop quite decent technicals:

Spoiler

Edited October 24, 2022 by LeoFM

[DMaster2]

Il 22/10/2022 in 18:27 , Andrew James ha scritto:

Hi all, just wanted to confirm that the balancing with attribute progression is a known issue and under review. 

Future fixes will be save game compatible and will affect player progression from that point forward, rather than retrospectively alter any attributes. 

Player progression is a complex area and delicate balancing act with nearly every other part of the game feeding into it one way or another, so your patience is greatly appreciated while we iron out the issues. Results can also be impacted by save game and database setups, so thanks for the feedback so far and if you have any extreme examples or new info, a post on the bug tracker is always welcomed

Thanks! 

When can we expect a proper fix? I really hope it's fixed with the official release and not after that...

[SupraFlush]

@LeoFM Here we go! I got some stuff that I needed to take care of, sorry for being a bit late with it, here's the link for you and everyone else that might be interested, Jan 1st 2039: https://www.mediafire.com/file/3nxdxj3kfe8plej/FM23_Player_Development_Test_Top_Leagues_Loaded.fm/file

I'm currently setting up the big database, 230 k players and 120+ leagues will be interesting to say the least!

[LeoFM]

@SupraFlush

Thank you very much! 

Will take a look at this after work tomorrow.

[jack.bookey]

So am I right in thinking we can get on with our main save and the fix will apply into it? 

[SupraFlush]

36 minutes ago, jack.bookey said:

So am I right in thinking we can get on with our main save and the fix will apply into it? 

They will fix it, but the players will remain the same if you play a season or so. They can't fix it retroactively so if you're concerned about the development of your players I'd hold off on playing for more than a season(or at all) unless you want to get great mental attributes but bad technical ones.

[jack.bookey]

17 minutes ago, SupraFlush said:

They will fix it, but the players will remain the same if you play a season or so. They can't fix it retroactively so if you're concerned about the development of your players I'd hold off on playing for more than a season(or at all) unless you want to get great mental attributes but bad technical ones.

Ah okay, thank you. 
 

So if I played one season, a player would only ‘miss’ one year of normal development or is that player permanently going to miss out on this patch? 

[SupraFlush]

7 minutes ago, jack.bookey said:

Ah okay, thank you. 
 

So if I played one season, a player would only ‘miss’ one year of normal development or is that player permanently going to miss out on this patch? 

Precisely, that's what SI have said in another thread. I played two seasons before I took a break, and it's definitely noticeable that the mental attributes are developing way more than the technical, and I currently can't continue without screwing up some of my exciting young players. So as long as you are aware of if you can play as much as you want or do some challenge, the match engine feels more alive with the ball bouncing a lot more than before and it feels more alive, even though there seems to be more long balls than it should be. So yeah it's up to you how important youth development is for you!