Possession in fm 22

[warlock]

4 minutes ago, Sneaky Pete said:

For what it's worth I would be very interested to see how you are managing to avoid it

I'm not quite sure, to be honest. I think it's largely because I've never used anything like the gegenpress, or high pressing in general. I usually opt for a mid- or low-press - or a split block with just the 2 or 3 most advanced players pressing. One of my big takeaways from FM21 was that while gegenpressing was overpowered, it also led to a lot of complaints on the forum where human managers were generating huge numbers of low-quality shots but losing to the odd counter-attack or set-piece goal. One of the truths I hold to be self-evident in football is that you need time and space to create good shooting chances, but a lot of the tactics that are popular actually eliminate time and space in the final third. The kind of tactics with 4 or more players attacking narrow, CMs pushing up, WBs high, all pressing with 'prevent GK distribution', which pretty much force the AI to keep 8 players inside their own penalty area. Since the only out-ball is a hoof up to the lone striker on the halfway line, it doesn't surprise me that the AI resorts to short, low-risk, back-and-forth passing between CBs.

This is one of my most successful tactics from FM21, which has also worked well in FM22 when I've found a squad suitable for it:

Although it has higher LoE and more frequent pressing, counter-press is not selected.

And this is the system I was using with Forest Green Rovers:

Typically, both of these tactics - like most I use - will give me around 50-54% possession by default. If I see that figure dropping below around 48% I'll make changes like narrowing the width, reducing tempo, shortening passing length, which will usually push it back up towards 55%. I know some people actively seek 60-70% possession stats and - for me - that's fine as a technical goal, but it doesn't help me win football matches. My tactical goals are to win games and - because it does help - to keep possession somewhere between 52 and 55%. If by some chance I find myself with more than 60% I'm more likely to exchange possession for penetration, upping the tempo or pushing passing directness.

To be clear, I understand people who chase the Pep, Barcelona, tiki-taka domination but it's not for me. Pep's Barcelona - and the Spanish national team that followed it - produced some of the most tedious and downright boring football I've ever seen.

To go back to the point of dispute - whether passing among AI CBs is the problem - I now recognise that it is, but it seems to be more complicated than that. For one, I think the ME is generating far too many passes, and far too many completed passes, in general. And I think the secondary problem is that pressing is broken, probably as an unforeseen side effect of the new pressing triggers in the ME. And third, the tactics that were so popular in FM21 are making the problems worse, by denying the AI any opportunity to do anything other than short, safe passes in the defence.

Let's hope Tuesday's version solves at least some of the issues.

[Sneaky Pete]

Bizarre. Both of those formations are very close - both in terms of shape, mentality, and instructions - to the stuff I use with my teams. Perhaps this is again a function of the disastrous underdog behaviour that's caused problems before? Saints and FGR are hardly prospective league champions, so the opposition might consistently be more willing to take risks with the ball against you.

[yonko]

4 hours ago, Zemahh said:

I know it's been reported before, but would be great if you could make a new thread with those examples.

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2022-early-access-beta-bugs-forum/match-engine-ai-and-tactics/

Really hoping this one gets fixed for the full release, this is just bizarre.

If it's known issue and has been reported already then I don't see the point of making a new thread. Is my example so unique and extreme? They will probably ask me to upload a save or match or whatever and I can't be bothered with that stuff. If they know about it and manage to fix it, great. If not then oh well.....

4 hours ago, warlock said:

Yeah, even I have to admit that's indefensible. As well as being impossible to understand.

I probably owe @Sneaky Peteand @CARRERAan apology. I can only say I still haven't seen anything like it in any of my saves but I can't argue with those screenshots.

 

1 hour ago, Sneaky Pete said:

No apology needed - genuinely. I certainly could have been on better behaviour and very much respect that someone must play the role of Devil's Advocate lest the forum just become an echo chamber of ME moans.

For what it's worth I would be very interested to see how you are managing to avoid it, since the rest of us seem to experience it come Hell or high water. Perhaps seeing what you are doing differently - as I assume you must be - from the rest of us could help clue us (and the devs) on to what is going wrong in the ME when stuff like @yonko's screenshots happen.

At least I'm happy that my screenshot examples bring peace to whatever feud/argument was going on here. Now, if it was only this easy to find peace in the rest of the world. 

[warlock]

26 minutes ago, yonko said:

peace to whatever feud/argument was going on here

Blessed are the cheesemakers, as a great man once said . A long way from a feud, but passions run high around beta releases. In the end we all want the best possible FM.

[warlock]

Sorry, I missed your reply.

On 05/11/2021 at 02:11, Sneaky Pete said:

Saints and FGR are hardly prospective league champions

Well, I doubt Saints are, but FGR are candidates for automatic promotion and media prediction is 4th. When I stopped that save we were well clear at the top after the first 18 games of the season unbeaten. I don't know what we can read into that.

But it may well be something related to the ultra-cautious approach of a lot of AI teams. I'm certainly hoping for significant improvements in the ME on Tuesday.

[Englishhammer]

On 05/11/2021 at 02:43, warlock said:

Blessed are the cheesemakers, as a great man once said 

Shouldn’t that be “as a Grate man once said”……….

I’ll get my coat 

[Johan 14 Cruyff]

Anyone news if this will be sorted by the release of the full game ? 
 

[hawkgg]

Have anyone tested if this issue been fixed now that the game is fully released?  (Unable to play the game until tomorrow, so therefore im asking).

[SimonWig]

1 hour ago, hawkgg said:

Have anyone tested if this issue been fixed now that the game is fully released?  (Unable to play the game until tomorrow, so therefore im asking).

Doesn’t look like it, sadly 

[hawkgg]

25 minutes ago, SimonWig said:

Doesn’t look like it, sadly 

Thanks. Very disappointing if thats the case. Wont play the game until they have fixed it.

Edited November 8, 2021 by hawkgg

[CARRERA]

unfortunately not, neil brock said at the official feedback thread, that this is a well known issue they are looking into, but changes and testing need time to find a balance. So you properbly need to wait until patch 1 or 2 for it being fixed.

[Fragnat]

Well this sucks, gegenpress only it is

[Gee_Simpson]

Ahh so this is why it's difficult to get good possession numbers, I might hold off until this is fixed.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Gee_Simpson

[UI_Riven]

Il y a 10 heures, CARRERA a dit :

unfortunately not, neil brock said at the official feedback thread, that this is a well known issue they are looking into, but changes and testing need time to find a balance. So you properbly need to wait until patch 1 or 2 for it being fixed.

Do you know how often they usually release updates? Do you have an estimation?

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, UI_Riven said:

Do you know how often they usually release updates? Do you have an estimation?

If I remember correctly, there are usually 3 big updates until March with some hotfixes inbetween. 

one of those updates usually is a big ME update.

[UI_Riven]

Il y a 1 heure, CARRERA a dit :

If I remember correctly, there are usually 3 big updates until March with some hotfixes inbetween. 

one of those updates usually is a big ME update.

Great then. I just hope it'll be soon, within maybe a month... I just can't play the game with the ME as it is right now

[Diogo28]

Well, this didnt get any better.

 

Just had a 6-0 Barcelona - Levante and my possession was 29%

[Fragnat]

In their quest to make gegenpress worse they made it even better by ruining possession based playstyles

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Surprised to see so many comments about pressing still not working correctly since the official release. Based on my experience so far, it seems to be a big improvement.

Like many, during the BETA I struggled *big time* to get on the ball and even shut down the game in frustration after seeing each opposition centre back get 100+ passes, dominate possession whilst creating nothing whatsoever.

Since the official release, however, I have not struggled anywhere near as much.

Limited sample size, but these are my pre-season reports.

 

 

My game plan has been collective, possession-based football with high pressing and short passing. I've experimented with a couple of different shapes; mostly 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 3-4-2-1.

Only Dortmund and Monchengladbach were able to out-pass us. I think the first was just quality of players and the second we struggled structurally to get enough pressure on the 3-man opposition defence.

It seems to me like players just need to be much more 'belt and braces' in their pressing. By that, I mean setting your tactics correctly, but also opposition instructions, choosing the right players etc. Gone are the days of just saying 'close down more' and watching Mesut Ozil or Cristiano Ronaldo cover every blade of grass like N'golo Kante 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[crusadertsar]

18 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Surprised to see so many comments about pressing still not working correctly since the official release. Based on my experience so far, it seems to be a big improvement.

Like many, during the BETA I struggled *big time* to get on the ball and even shut down the game in frustration after seeing each opposition centre back get 100+ passes, dominate possession whilst creating nothing whatsoever.

Since the official release, however, I have not struggled anywhere near as much.

Limited sample size, but these are my pre-season reports.

 

 

My game plan has been collective, possession-based football with high pressing and short passing. I've experimented with a couple of different shapes; mostly 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 3-4-2-1.

Only Dortmund and Monchengladbach were able to out-pass us. I think the first was just quality of players and the second we struggled structurally to get enough pressure on the 3-man opposition defence.

It seems to me like players just need to be much more 'belt and braces' in their pressing. By that, I mean setting your tactics correctly, but also opposition instructions, choosing the right players etc. Gone are the days of just saying 'close down more' and watching Mesut Ozil or Cristiano Ronaldo cover every blade of grass like N'golo Kante 

Couldn't agree more Days of plug and win exploit tactics seem to be behind us

Edited November 10, 2021 by crusadertsar

[JoOSTAR]

36 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Surprised to see so many comments about pressing still not working correctly since the official release. Based on my experience so far, it seems to be a big improvement.

Like many, during the BETA I struggled *big time* to get on the ball and even shut down the game in frustration after seeing each opposition centre back get 100+ passes, dominate possession whilst creating nothing whatsoever.

Since the official release, however, I have not struggled anywhere near as much.

Limited sample size, but these are my pre-season reports.

 

 

My game plan has been collective, possession-based football with high pressing and short passing. I've experimented with a couple of different shapes; mostly 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 3-4-2-1.

Only Dortmund and Monchengladbach were able to out-pass us. I think the first was just quality of players and the second we struggled structurally to get enough pressure on the 3-man opposition defence.

It seems to me like players just need to be much more 'belt and braces' in their pressing. By that, I mean setting your tactics correctly, but also opposition instructions, choosing the right players etc. Gone are the days of just saying 'close down more' and watching Mesut Ozil or Cristiano Ronaldo cover every blade of grass like N'golo Kante 

Looking forward to your first (tactical) threads on this forum!

[Fragnat]

12 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Surprised to see so many comments about pressing still not working correctly since the official release. Based on my experience so far, it seems to be a big improvement.

Like many, during the BETA I struggled *big time* to get on the ball and even shut down the game in frustration after seeing each opposition centre back get 100+ passes, dominate possession whilst creating nothing whatsoever.

Since the official release, however, I have not struggled anywhere near as much.

Limited sample size, but these are my pre-season reports.

 

 

My game plan has been collective, possession-based football with high pressing and short passing. I've experimented with a couple of different shapes; mostly 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 3-4-2-1.

Only Dortmund and Monchengladbach were able to out-pass us. I think the first was just quality of players and the second we struggled structurally to get enough pressure on the 3-man opposition defence.

It seems to me like players just need to be much more 'belt and braces' in their pressing. By that, I mean setting your tactics correctly, but also opposition instructions, choosing the right players etc. Gone are the days of just saying 'close down more' and watching Mesut Ozil or Cristiano Ronaldo cover every blade of grass like N'golo Kante 

I find myself struggling to get possession especially vs lower level teams and overall dont create much chances with the shorter passes, how do you archive this?

[jandito]

This issue has completely ruined the game for me. There's just no immersion because when you watch the matches there's an invisible barrier on the pitch that your players won't go past. It's infuriating. No matter what your tactics are, you just have to sit there and watch average teams pass the ball between themselves at the back. I have a Roma save and am playing an aggressive high press tactic, however it just doesn't materialise so there's basically no point.

I can't believe this issue wasn't ironed out in development. How does defenders completing 95%-100% of their passes not ring any alarm bells? Pressing is one of the most important aspects of modern football and it's been rendered pretty much obsolete in FM22. 

Take a recent game where I played away at minnows Ternana. Their back four completed 331 passes in the match with an average completion rate of 97.7%.

I just can't play the game whilst the match engine is like this. The minor issues in previous games like too many goals from crosses I could look past but this is too much for me to turn a blind eye to.

 

 

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, jandito said:

This issue has completely ruined the game for me. There's just no immersion because when you watch the matches there's an invisible barrier on the pitch that your players won't go past. It's infuriating. No matter what your tactics are, you just have to sit there and watch average teams pass the ball between themselves at the back. I have a Roma save and am playing an aggressive high press tactic, however it just doesn't materialise so there's basically no point.

I can't believe this issue wasn't ironed out in development. How does defenders completing 95%-100% of their passes not ring any alarm bells? Pressing is one of the most important aspects of modern football and it's been rendered pretty much obsolete in FM22. 

Take a recent game where I played away at minnows Ternana. Their back four completed 331 passes in the match with an average completion rate of 97.7%.

I just can't play the game whilst the match engine is like this. The minor issues in previous games like too many goals from crosses I could look past but this is too much for me to turn a blind eye to.

 

 

That's really weird. Pressing high works well for me. Actually better than it did in FM21. Can we see your tactic with roles and instructions? 

Edited November 11, 2021 by crusadertsar

[(sic)]

12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

That's really weird. Pressing high works well for me. Actually better than it did in FM21. Can we see your tactic with roles and instructions? 

Are you sure it works?

This is what I usually see with maxed out pressing, LoE, even OIs and marking instructions for players.

See how fast the midfielder receiving the ball gets closed down? Yet the CB hold still with the ball for a few seconds, and nobody is running to close him down.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by (sic)

[CARRERA]

8 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

That's really weird. Pressing high works well for me. Actually better than it did in FM21. Can we see your tactic with roles and instructions? 

It’s acknowledged as a known issue by SI in the bug tracker and several SI staff members have stated there that the ME team is working on it for a fix to balance things out again.

its 100% not a tactical issue. it may just not occur for you as you properbly don’t  match the requirements for it to happen.

[jandito]

17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

That's really weird. Pressing high works well for me. Actually better than it did in FM21. Can we see your tactic with roles and instructions? 

Here it is. In possession instructions that don't fit into screenshot: short passing, play out of defence, work ball into box.

Genuinely happy to take feedback on the tactic and how I can get it to press better. I created it myself and I'm not really an expert like some are. 

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, jandito said:

Here it is. In possession instructions that don't fit into screenshot: short passing, play out of defence, work ball into box.

Genuinely happy to take feedback on the tactic and how I can get it to press better. I created it myself and I'm not really an expert like some are. 

How do you press wide areas? Usually ideal pressing formations are top heavy. Either with two strikers or shapes with striker and forwards in the AMC, AMR and AML positions. This way you can start pressing early with your players already positioned high. 

 

[bibird.]

16 minutes ago, (sic) said:

Are you sure it works?

This is what I usually see with maxed out pressing, LoE, even OIs and marking instructions for players.

See how fast the midfielder receiving the ball gets closed down? Yet the CB hold still with the ball for a few seconds, and nobody is running to close him down.

 

That looks normal to me. The CB is facing the play and has assorted open options to pass to. If the forward raced up to him then he'd just be dragging himself out of position, as #4 would have acres to move into. "Work smarter, not harder" springs to mind.

To me, it looks like a reasonable representation of how pressing traps play out IRL

Edited November 11, 2021 by bibird.
Typo

[crusadertsar]

Like this is the shape I use with Porto.

 

I play mostly against minnows in the league. So far about two months in and haven't had trouble breaking down ultra defensive sides.

I use split block on my top four players so our pressing is more focused. 

[jandito]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

How do you press wide areas? Usually ideal pressing formations are top heavy. Either with two strikers or shapes with striker and forwards in the AMC, AMR and AML positions. This way you can start pressing early with your players already positioned high. 

 

With my full backs. I have my defensive line as high as it will go and have set my full backs to press high. As you can see with the initial screenshots I posted though, it's not just pressing in wide areas that's an issue. In the Ternana game both centre backs completed 100% of their passes. Even though I have a pressing forward with 17 work rate and 2 narrow attackers behind him set to press too.

I'm not claiming my tactic is perfect but it's a definite issue and is taking away a lot of enjoyment from the game.

What sort of pass completion are opposition centre backs getting against you?

[(sic)]

14 minutes ago, bibird. said:

That looks normal to me. The CB is facing the play and has assorted open options to pass to. If the forward raced up to him then he'd just be dragging himself out of position, as #4 would have acres to move into. "Work smarter, not harder" springs to mind.

To me, it looks like a reasonable representation of how pressing traps play out IRL

But the problem is they can play out of the back, with GK passing to CBs and nobody will close them down. Pair that with weaker teams playing on defensive mentalities, and you get CBs passing between each other, having 95%+ pass completion and just adding to the possession stat of their team.

The team wont position itself to press in the opponents third at all, they wont cut out passing lanes or mark players in opposition third.

It's like a switch, once they enter the middle third all players start running and closing in like headless chicken, but do absolutely nothing in the opposition third.

Edited November 11, 2021 by (sic)

[crusadertsar]

38 minutes ago, jandito said:

With my full backs. I have my defensive line as high as it will go and have set my full backs to press high. As you can see with the initial screenshots I posted though, it's not just pressing in wide areas that's an issue. In the Ternana game both centre backs completed 100% of their passes. Even though I have a pressing forward with 17 work rate and 2 narrow attackers behind him set to press too.

I'm not claiming my tactic is perfect but it's a definite issue and is taking away a lot of enjoyment from the game.

What sort of pass completion are opposition centre backs getting against you?

I would have to check the specific stats later tonight but I'm sure it's high since it is a known issue. But it doesn't really matter to me. I don't care about the possession numbers because they mean nothing. My players are still able to get the ball away from the opponent. So if I win 3-0 against a side that has 55% possession, I don't care. The possession numbers will never be realistic in the game. And they never were before. Simply because possession is not calculated the same way it is in real life.

Edited November 11, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Jack722]

I remember in FM20, I tried to make a 4231 and I noticed that my CAM was always putting in terrible performances. I made a thread on these forums asking for advice, and I got loads of suggestions from people trying to help me... And while I appreciated it, I wish I had never wasted my time. I basically spent hours listening to every suggestion, slowly tweaking my tactics every game. The main advice was 'give your CAM more space', and so I eventually ended up with a ridiculous donut looking tactic with pure wingers, a poacher, and defensive DM's. Not only did these tweaks never actually work in the end, but my tactics became completely unsuited to the rest of my team because I was trying so damn hard just to get one player to give me at least average performances.

Then FM21 comes out, and without even spending 2 minutes or any thought, making the simplest tactic, I start seeing through balls and assists from my CAM.

There is clearly an issue with pressing in the ME. And yes, while your tactics can always be improved, if you spend too much time worrying and thinking about it, you're going to end up with some sort of stupid 424 with 4 Shane Longs as pressing forwards just to get 50% possession. My advice would be to just chill out a bit and carry on trying to make a realistic tactic the best you can. Try to ignore possession stats as much as possible, because they are broken for all teams anyway. If you can't ignore it then either stop playing until it's fixed or go back to FM21.

Not bashing FM22 btw, I really like the new pressing system overall (much more than 21), and with a few tweaks I think it will be close to perfect in terms of balancing how irl teams play and keeping the game simple.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Jack722

[(sic)]

47 minutes ago, (sic) said:

But the problem is they can play out of the back, with GK passing to CBs and nobody will close them down. Pair that with weaker teams playing on defensive mentalities, and you get CBs passing between each other, having 95%+ pass completion and just adding to the possession stat of their team.

The team wont position itself to press in the opponents third at all, they wont cut out passing lanes or mark players in opposition third.

It's like a switch, once they enter the middle third all players start running and closing in like headless chicken, but do absolutely nothing in the opposition third.

[miteymcgrath]

Have to say I havent experienced this. Been playing a Leamington save in a youth academy challenge (no transfers), 3rd season in playing tika taka and average 60-75% possession a game. Incredibly rare to see me cede possession to a team. 
 

My 1st choice dm and cms in a 433 both averaging way above 100 passes per game.

[Pattric_b]

I haven't been having any issues holding the ball and I'm playing as Barnsley with maybe the 12th best squad. As you can see we are also out-passing the rest of the league by about 2k+ passes in total. 

I agree with what O-zil said above, if you want to play a high pressing, possession based tactic you need the right players who compliment that style of play. It's never been more true than this year. Plug and play is fading off into the sunset and people need to start adapting!

[jandito]

4 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

I haven't been having any issues holding the ball and I'm playing as Barnsley with maybe the 12th best squad. As you can see we are also out-passing the rest of the league by about 2k+ passes in total. 

I agree with what O-zil said above, if you want to play a high pressing, possession based tactic you need the right players who compliment that style of play. It's never been more true than this year. Plug and play is fading off into the sunset and people need to start adapting!

That's impressive but I created the tactic myself so haven't really plugged anything in.. 

In terms of having the right players, my pressing forward is Tammy Abraham. This is his best role according to the game and he has a work rate of 17 yet I routinely watch him allow the centre backs pass the ball between each other. 

As others have said, it's a known issue with the game and the sooner it's fixed the better. 

Out of interest I went to the pass completion stat page for the whole of Serie A and every player in the top 20 was a centre back. 5 of them had a 99% pass completion by the midway point of the season. 

I've also checked other leagues. Looked at a random City game where they played Newcastle at home (winning 3-1). Newcastle had 56% possession and Lascelles and Fernandez had nearly 200 passes between them. Think they completed 560 passes to City's 420. So stupid.

[(sic)]

14 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

I haven't been having any issues holding the ball and I'm playing as Barnsley with maybe the 12th best squad. As you can see we are also out-passing the rest of the league by about 2k+ passes in total. 

I agree with what O-zil said above, if you want to play a high pressing, possession based tactic you need the right players who compliment that style of play. It's never been more true than this year. Plug and play is fading off into the sunset and people need to start adapting!

It's not that there's an issue with holding the ball, it's that when AI plays on defensive mentalities against stronger teams, they keep the ball for no reason, passing between CBs, which in turn boosts their possession numbers to be unrealistic sometimes. (And the issue here is the way possession is calculated as well)

In the past CBs had more direct passing when on low mentalities and shorter passing when on higher mentalities, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Edited November 11, 2021 by (sic)

[bibird.]

27 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

I agree with what O-zil said above, if you want to play a high pressing, possession based tactic you need the right players who compliment that style of play. It's never been more true than this year. Plug and play is fading off into the sunset and people need to start adapting!

This is quite an interesting point, it could be down to how the match engine is visually manifesting the changes in the pressing system. If your players are less capable of pressing (like Ozil and Ronaldo from the example above), it might be the case that the match engine displays it like some of the gifs that have been shown in this thread.

I know that I've used high pressing tactics in the past, lobbed Ozil in with his poor work rate and teamwork, yet (visually) he still presses like the rest of the team with higher attributes for WR and TW. It might look like he's pressing through the visual perception of the match engine, but it's not as successful if someone else was in the position.

[crusadertsar]

22 minutes ago, (sic) said:

In the past CBs had more direct passing when on low mentalities and shorter passing when on higher mentalities, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Im sorry but have to point this out as not true. Its still very much the case in FM22 that in order to play out of the back and have your centrebacks involved in the buildup, you need to play on positive or attacking mentality. I have noticed this in all the saves I have started in the beta. Sometimes even Positive is not enough.

In fact I found that Attacking team mentality is sweet spot when it comes to centreback behavior. On Balanced Team mentality they are just too conservative and boot the ball too often when pressed.

If you want more proof then you can also look at @04texag excellent thread about recreating Pep's style of play. He actually arrived at the same conclusion about team mentality and building up from the back as me.

Edited November 11, 2021 by crusadertsar

[(sic)]

11 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Im sorry but have to point this out as not true. Its still very much the case in FM22 that in order to play out of the back and have your centrebacks involved in the buildup, you need to play on positive or attacking mentality. I have noticed this in all the saves I have started in the beta. Sometimes even Positive is not enough.

In fact I found that Attacking team mentality is sweet spot when it comes to centreback behavior. On Balanced Team mentality they are just too conservative and boot the ball too often when pressed.

If you want more proof then you can also look at @04texag excellent thread about recreating Pep's style of play. He actually arrived at the same conclusion about team mentality and building up from the back as me.

I thought that was the case too, and I've seen both yours and his thread. But then what causes this behavior of CBs? If you looked at the gifs I posted above, they just hold the ball for long periods then pass to their teammate, rinse-repeat. Them holding onto the ball counts as possession%, so the longer they do so the bigger the possession numbers are (which, again, comes to how the game calculates possession).

It has to be a combination of mentality, pressing issues, and other ME issues that aren't obvious to us. But anyways, the problem does exist, as SI have acknowledged it, and they're working on a fix.

[crusadertsar]

22 minutes ago, (sic) said:

I thought that was the case too, and I've seen both yours and his thread. But then what causes this behavior of CBs? If you looked at the gifs I posted above, they just hold the ball for long periods then pass to their teammate, rinse-repeat. Them holding onto the ball counts as possession%, so the longer they do so the bigger the possession numbers are (which, again, comes to how the game calculates possession).

It has to be a combination of mentality, pressing issues, and other ME issues that aren't obvious to us. But anyways, the problem does exist, as SI have acknowledged it, and they're working on a fix.

The calculations are very complex. As it's not just mentality. It's a combination of instructions, player attributes, traits and the formation with the roles of players around them. Are you sure they even have someone close to pass to? 

It also highly dependent on what the other team is doing. Are they pressing you or marking your defenders? I find AI is much better at counterpressing and defending in general in FM22 than in previous versions.

Again I'm not saying that the game is perfect. But I find that there are ways to work around the ME to get the desired behavior you want. But of course it could be better.

Edited November 11, 2021 by crusadertsar

[fc.cadoni]

22 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Couldn't agree more Days of plug and win exploit tactics seem to be behind us

Don't say big words. :-P

[(sic)]

12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

The calculations are very complex. As it's not just mentality. It's a combination of instructions, player attributes, traits and the formation with the roles of players around them. Are you sure they even have someone close to pass to? 

It also highly dependent on what the other team is doing. Are they pressing you or marking your defenders? I find AI is much better at counterpressing and defending in general in FM22 than in previous versions.

Again I'm not saying that the game is perfect. But I find that there are ways to work around the ME to get the desired behavior you want. But of course it could be better.

In the gifs above, the opposition team is white. For the purposes of testing it out, I used your Cruyff replication tactic. (I used it for a few matches, just to get the tactical familiarity up)

Having pressing OIs on the defensive line, Much Higher LoE and Def. line, Prevent short GK distribution, more urgent pressing, nothing helped to make my players close those players down. I'm not sure how I can work around the ME anymore to get them to close down those players.

I myself don't have issues with my team having possession, I comfortably sit around 60% most of the time, but there's an issue when opposition CBs have the ball. I've explained when it is happening.

 

Here's another screenshot. Semi-professional side vs the best club in Norway. Playing a possession based system, based on Pep's City.

50-50 in terms of possession, 90%+ completed passes.

Here's another extreme example from the beta.

[Johnny Ace]

45 minutes ago, (sic) said:

I thought that was the case too, and I've seen both yours and his thread. But then what causes this behavior of CBs? If you looked at the gifs I posted above, they just hold the ball for long periods then pass to their teammate, rinse-repeat. Them holding onto the ball counts as possession%, so the longer they do so the bigger the possession numbers are (which, again, comes to how the game calculates possession).

It has to be a combination of mentality, pressing issues, and other ME issues that aren't obvious to us. But anyways, the problem does exist, as SI have acknowledged it, and they're working on a fix.

Player mentality & the low tempo defensive mentalities come with 

I found you can win the possession battle but you have to play like the AI does

Cautious mentality, play out from the back, work ball into box, shorter passing, low tempo all of that. Then limiting your "runner & risky pass" roles on top saw you beat the AI at the possession game, only problem was, creating enough chances to win the game. I did a trial with City & would up the tempo for 10 minute intervals to try & grab a couple of goals, then slow things back down to cling onto the ball.

It's possible, just not my style of play at all  

[bobbyb12345]

Not sure if people have picked up on this, but isn't part of the issue with pressing that you can only press the ball carrier in the game?  That's what causes this issue - you press a CB, they pass to the next free guy.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 hours ago, Fragnat said:

I find myself struggling to get possession especially vs lower level teams and overall dont create much chances with the shorter passes, how do you archive this?

To me, the important thing is to find a good balance between keeping the ball and winning the ball.

The issue with opposition defenders endlessly passing the ball between themselves and racking up 100+ passes whilst completely shutting the game down in the BETA led me to focus on pressing.

So far, my approach has been:

1. High defensive line, high line of engagement, high pressing triggers
2. OIs to close down and mark opposition central defenders and holding midfielders
3. Prioritise players with high work rate, stamina and team work
4. Adapt your team to the opposition
   • I am still really struggling with opponents playing a back 3
5. Press collectively

Hope this helps!

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

1. Adapt your team to the opposition
   • I am still really struggling with opponents playing a back 3

Teams like Brighton who play with three CB's are possession masters right now

It'll be a tough fix for SI but hopefully they can come up with something this version 

[04texag]

12 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

To me, the important thing is to find a good balance between keeping the ball and winning the ball.

The issue with opposition defenders endlessly passing the ball between themselves and racking up 100+ passes whilst completely shutting the game down in the BETA led me to focus on pressing.

So far, my approach has been:

1. High defensive line, high line of engagement, high pressing triggers
2. OIs to close down and mark opposition central defenders and holding midfielders
3. Prioritise players with high work rate, stamina and team work
4. Adapt your team to the opposition
   • I am still really struggling with opponents playing a back 3
5. Press collectively

Hope this helps!

I found similar settings helpful as well. Press them high and they will stop just sitting on the ball at the back. You can opt to do this in short 5-10 min cycles if you don't have a team ideally setup for it, and it can force them to switch up what they are doing tactically.