30 time reload, but you can't win

[SCIAG]

Nobody fought the dinosaurs

[Jimbokav1971]

I genuinely love this post.

And I'm not joking.

I couldn't be bothered to give him the bad news that prehistoric man was actually not the cause of the dinosaurs demise.

I might have even had the desire to tell him that man hadn't evolved into man at the time the donosaurs walked the earth but he would tell me I was wrong and ask me to prove it.

Instead I will simply have to agree, Yes. Man truly did kill all the donosaurs with a big club (called Diablo), and a cheating tactic where he backed them into a corner and then "challenged T-Rex".

[TheMister]

If the result is pre-determined, how can you win after 36 tries - surely you wouldn't be able to win at all? :confused: Did you hover your cursor over a special bit of the UI?

[Wee Aja]

I couldn't be bothered to give him the bad news that prehistoric man was actually not the cause of the dinosaurs demise.

I might have even had the desire to tell him that man hadn't evolved into man at the time the donosaurs walked the earth but he would tell me I was wrong and ask me to prove it.

Instead I will simply have to agree, Yes. Man truly did kill all the donosaurs with a big club (called Diablo), and a cheating tactic where he backed them into a corner and then "challenged T-Rex".

Out of all the posts that people make on here that could quite justifiably be derided, that one by tak would be at the bottom of the list simply for it's genius.

Actually, I'm convinced he meant it, and that his comedy timing is rival to Richard Prior.

[Ceching You Out]

Lads, you are really trying to hard. When the game cheats, I always cheat back. This is the most noble and fair thing a player can do. There is no way anyone will retain justice in this game, because there is no one else involved, but yourself. If those instances of gross injustice on behalf of the AI are left un-answered, if we stay passively to watch them, we have only ourselves to blame.

Now, I understand that some players have strict morals and they refuse to cheat when cheated, actually they don't even admit they were cheated but whisper phrases like: "that's life", "what can you do", "I will change my tactics" etc. There is no moral value that is stronger than justice though. And I salute whoever is serving justice by cheating back at the machine.

I don't think civilisation was created by people sitting and watching the dinosaurs eating them just because they were big. No. They stood up and fought. And guess what. The dinosaurs are dead.

I genuinely love this post.

And I'm not joking.

I have to say, well played. An interesting moral/philosophical argument that could serve as the basis for hours of debate punctuated by an intentionally absurd analogy. Again, well played!

[tak]

Thanks for your comments. I agree, the debate is no longer whether AI is biased towards some results or not. It is whether the player should answer to this blatancy or piously choose to become a martyr.

It is clear that I choose to answer by cheating immediately and with immense force when I am cheated. There is a catch though.

I have found myself many times tempted to cheat anyway (I wanted Henry in my team Monaco and I got him, I admit it. I forget my shame though when he touches the ball.). The protocol for proper cheating has not been set and this leads to anarchy. Let us start a creative discussion on correct and incorrect ways of cheating, meaning fair and unfair.

So, I would like to hear some opinions on the correct reply to certain AI cheats. Let us say, for example, that the game forbids you to win like our friend the OP. How would you fight back? Would you destroy Inter completely, by turning all players to useless fat drinkers? Would you just injure everyone but not actually ruin their careers? Would you just play the U-18s and keep the team healthy? How far can you go to avenge such a shambles?

[DivineOne]

So, I would like to hear some opinions on the correct reply to certain AI cheats. Let us say, for example, that the game forbids you to win like our friend the OP.

I would win the game with good tactics, because the AI is incapable of cheating. Get this: a computer is INCAPABLE of cheating, it just can't happen.

[fdawsoniv]

I ran into one of these situations against Torquay in my Oxford save just yesterday. Manager had tried to provoke me into mind games beforehand and it just seemed like they had it out for me for some reason. I dominated the game but they scored a couple fluke goals and stole it 3-1. Granted, my team's finishing has been terrible all year so I expect it to bite me sometimes. I am not one to reload just because I lost, but there was something about this game that made me want to try it again. This time around, they injured one of my guys and then played on a full 30 seconds (doesn't sound like much but it is) and scored a goal while he was lying there! I wanted very badly to reload, take over their team, and release all players on a free, thus leaving them with only grays and ruining them financially. Glad I didn't. I did replay until I won, though. Only took a few tries. It's not a terribly serious save, though part of me does feel guilty.

Then another part of me remembers that Tor-gay are dirty rotten cheaters and I don't feel so bad.

I don't like it, but sometimes my competitiveness gets the best of me.

[baker.simon]

I couldn't be bothered to give him the bad news that prehistoric man was actually not the cause of the dinosaurs demise.

I might have even had the desire to tell him that man hadn't evolved into man at the time the donosaurs walked the earth but he would tell me I was wrong and ask me to prove it.

Instead I will simply have to agree, Yes. Man truly did kill all the donosaurs with a big club (called Diablo), and a cheating tactic where he backed them into a corner and then "challenged T-Rex".

Whats a donosaur?

safety wink

[tak]

Look. Reloading a game is so soft, so small, so cuddly, that cannot even go near being called "cheating". Let us use some perspective here, lads. Reload a game? Please. I become the mighty force of destruction when I am cheating. I have reduced Rafa Benitez into the guy who owns the hot-dog canteen outside the stadium. Poor Olympique Lyonnais has gone from first league to some obscure local bingo championship.

Reloading the game. Jesus Christ! That is normal, day to day FM playing. Relax.

Edit: I just recalled another thing. Have you been in those situations when you have the best fantastic coaches and the promising youth won't improve very quick, whereas all the other promising youths in rival teams become legends at 20? Well, thanks to my friend the fmrte my promising youth fulfills the promise!

[Wee Aja]

Look. Reloading a game is so soft, so small, so cuddly, that cannot even go near being called "cheating". Let us use some perspective here, lads. Reload a game? Please. I become the mighty force of destruction when I am cheating. I have reduced Rafa Benitez into the guy who owns the hot-dog canteen outside the stadium. Poor Olympique Lyonnais has gone from first league to some obscure local bingo championship.

Reloading the game. Jesus Christ! That is normal, day to day FM playing. Relax.

Edit: I just recalled another thing. Have you been in those situations when you have the best fantastic coaches and the promising youth won't improve very quick, whereas all the other promising youths in rival teams become legends at 20? Well, thanks to my friend the fmrte my promising youth fulfills the promise!

I'll play Devil's Advocate here....

The way you're looking at it is: Reloading a match on FM until you win is no different to pressing "continue" to retry when you 'die' on a game like, say, Resident Evil 4. I doubt there are many gamers out there who, out of 'honesty', start every game right from the beginning as soon as they die, because retrying (ie 'reloading') is 'cheating'.

You do have a good point to be fair.

[DivineOne]

That's a wrong way of looking at it. In RE if you die the game ends. If you lose a match in fm the game doesn't end.

It's part of the game, like taking a bullet in RE.

On another note: if you have more fun by cheating, then by all means do. The point of the game in the first place is to have fun.

[backpackant]

Looking forward to getting this "impossible to win" game. Bet I can win it in less than 36 reloads. And I've never even read the tactics bible. The game is pretty logical, despite what some people think.

[Wee Aja]

Looking forward to getting this "impossible to win" game.

I don't think we are getting it.

[Brian Shanahan]

I like how you worked out the end odds and stated that Inter have a 1/1000 chance of doing this, good explanation. But why did you assume that it is acceptable to say Inter have an 80% chance of winning and then base your theory on this? It totally ruins your argument and makes it look bias towards the fact you favour the game is right in my opinion. Perhaps if you had worked on 50% chance it would be a more rational argument.

Actually what CutePirate did there as a statistician was to give the benefit of the doubt to the position of the game being biased unfairly in favour of the AI, which is waht is being discussed in this thread if 50% were used that would mean .5 to the power of 30 i.e. 0.000000000931322574615478515625 or less than a one in a billion chance of the result happening that way, i.e. statistically very improbable indeed or put another way 1million FMers playing the same game 30 times over repeatedly a thousand times (say a week to do given outside constraints and sheer number of games {30,000}) to get such a sequence.

P.S. sorry for esponding to a post aready responded to, but I felt I had to lay out the situation as layman of a term as I coud.

[B1G_D]

Look. Reloading a game is so soft, so small, so cuddly, that cannot even go near being called "cheating". Let us use some perspective here, lads. Reload a game? Please. I become the mighty force of destruction when I am cheating. I have reduced Rafa Benitez into the guy who owns the hot-dog canteen outside the stadium. Poor Olympique Lyonnais has gone from first league to some obscure local bingo championship.

Reloading the game. Jesus Christ! That is normal, day to day FM playing. Relax.

Edit: I just recalled another thing. Have you been in those situations when you have the best fantastic coaches and the promising youth won't improve very quick, whereas all the other promising youths in rival teams become legends at 20? Well, thanks to my friend the fmrte my promising youth fulfills the promise!

Ahhh FMRTE, the great leveler!!

No such feeling as watching your Wigglington Wanderers side decimate Chelski U18 in the FA Cup final!

AVE IT!

[Ely-matty]

how many times do you watch match of the day and hear the commentators say " team a hasnt won here since 1968.." or something similar ??? is that cheating?? no, thats football. it happens.

this is the best answer i ever heard!!! ;)

[Jimbokav1971]

just popped in to see if the game had been uploaded.

4 days since opening post yet still no save.

[baker.simon]

just popped in to see if the game had been uploaded.

4 days since opening post yet still no save.

He'll be too busy creating another thread about how another part of FM cheats him :thup:

Also, you didnt tell me what a donosaur was still

[Jimbokav1971]

He'll be too busy creating another thread about how another part of FM cheats him :thup:

Also, you didnt tell me what a donosaur was still

A donasaur?:confused:

Without looking back I am guessing that I have forgotted how to speel.

In this case the donosaur would be me. Old and losing my marbles.

[chopper99]

Ahh, this old superstition again

You can win any game that you go into. It has been proven time and time again on these forums.

Your main problem was saving the game just before the match, once the team talks, moral etc were already set. It would actually be more worrying if it was then easy for you to win that game after only a couple of re-loads. But that said I bet if enough people try that save someone will win that game first time, blowing any theory of the match being pre-determined right out of the water.

Although the OP hasn't uploaded his save, if anyone else has this situation I'd hope they would, just so that we can once again put this to bed and prove that it's all nonsense.

[chopper99]

In this case the donosaur would be me. Old and losing my marbles.

Finally, some truth in this thread

[TheMister]

Finally, some truth in this thread

It'll never, NEVER I say, catch on though

[grep]

If you had a save game that witnesses that, it would be a mega super cheat that represents an huge shame indeed.

[Wee Aja]

how many times do you watch match of the day and hear the commentators say " team a hasnt won here since 1968.." or something similar ??? is that cheating?? no, thats football. it happens.

this is the best answer i ever heard!!! ;)

Indeed, but these instances are normally heard when it's teams like Fulham playing AT Anfield, whereas the example in the OP is a one-off cup final against two teams who can quite easily be considered equals.

[RBKalle]

What's the point in realoading a game to prove the AI is cheating and then ALTERING the tactic/formation before playing the "replay"?

Fielding an unusual starting 11 with a brand new tactic can go either way, but for sure it won't mean much for the "AI cheats to win" argument.

The same game should be played under the EXACT SAME circumstances of the first loss. Then if you still manage to lose, possibly in different fashions (from the 0-1 penalty loss, to the 4-0 ass-kicking to the ridiculous 2nd half comeback from the dead), it kinda proves the AI has a bit of predetermination.

[Neji]

It is clear that I choose to answer by cheating immediately and with immense force when I am cheated.

I don't understand how you know the game is supposedly cheating? Or do you just reload on every loss and claim that you were cheated?

[wwfan]

What's the point in realoading a game to prove the AI is cheating and then ALTERING the tactic/formation before playing the "replay"?

Fielding an unusual starting 11 with a brand new tactic can go either way, but for sure it won't mean much for the "AI cheats to win" argument.

The same game should be played under the EXACT SAME circumstances of the first loss. Then if you still manage to lose, possibly in different fashions (from the 0-1 penalty loss, to the 4-0 ass-kicking to the ridiculous 2nd half comeback from the dead), it kinda proves the AI has a bit of predetermination.

And I thought logic was a dying art!

[Ainu]

The same game should be played under the EXACT SAME circumstances of the first loss. Then if you still manage to lose, possibly in different fashions (from the 0-1 penalty loss, to the 4-0 ass-kicking to the ridiculous 2nd half comeback from the dead), it kinda proves the AI has a bit of predetermination.

That doesn't make any sense. If your team lost the first time, possibly the result of the other team just being much better on the day, having superior tactics, moral etc, not changing any of the circumstances should see your team lose over and over again. The only reason I'd see your team win under the same circumstances is by being very lucky. The sort of luck that doesn't come around too often, which means you could easily go several tries without avoiding a loss.

[RBKalle]

That doesn't make any sense. If your team lost the first time, possibly the result of the other team just being much better on the day, having superior tactics, moral etc, not changing any of the circumstances should see your team lose over and over again. The only reason I'd see your team win under the same circumstances is by being very lucky. The sort of luck that doesn't come around too often, which means you could easily go several tries without avoiding a loss.

But the point here is to prove is:

The AI cheats on me in that match

Not: "in which way can I win a difficult/even game?"

As in the case at hands we're debating about a very evenly matched game (Inter Milan v AC Milan should be an even game, despite last saturday's outcome ), there shouldn't be a decisive losing streak as if it was Kettering Town taking on Real Madrid.

If the OP (or any other player) is half-convinced the AI has been cheating on him to win a game, the best and only way to back up his point is replaying the SAME GAME with the SAME FORMATION/TACTIC/EVERYTHING over and over and over.

THEN, with a good array of results he and we can see if the game is indeed biased or not.

Even in the most unfavourable turn of events, even with a weakened roster, even with a shabby tactic created by a newbie, 10 replays of the same AC Milan v Inter Milan should NEVER end up with a 0-10 record.

[chopper99]

I carried out the above experiment when FM09 was first released (there should still be a thread on it somewhere) and found that the spread of results was very acceptable, and that the so called 'luck factor' was about right.

[Elrithral]

Has anyone else tried this and got the same results? (Chopper answered)

Even in the most unfavourable turn of events, even with a weakened roster, even with a shabby tactic created by a newbie, 10 replays of the same AC Milan v Inter Milan should NEVER end up with a 0-10 record.

Well that's just wrong. If the tactic is rubbish, the tactic is rubbish and you're gonna lose, regardless of how often you play it. Unles someone else tries this, and gets exactly the same results, it must be considered a freak occurance and incredibly unlucky on the OP's part.

[chopper99]

In fact, here's the test that I did a while ago:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=92042

However, this is slightly different from the opening posters claim. I was trying to prove that, using the same tactics etc you would expect similar results without too much randomness.

The OP is claiming (wrongly) that no matter what he does he cannot win a certain game.

[Jimbokav1971]

Even in the most unfavourable turn of events, even with a weakened roster, even with a shabby tactic created by a newbie, 10 replays of the same AC Milan v Inter Milan should NEVER end up with a 0-10 record.

Excuse me but yes they should.

He has already admitted that he is starting players with a condition less than 95%.

If he was playing a deep defensive line and using closing down always then I would expsct his players to tire significantly and this to impact greatly on the result.

There are LOADS of other significant contributing factors that could make 1 team play 10 times without losing.

Can I also just point out that the 10-0 result as you call it, might only be a 5-5-0 result, (5 losses and 5 draws). You see the original poster has been very careful to give us only limited information and STILL hasn't uploaded the save 4 and a half days after originally posting.

If I am honest with you, I think what we will find is that he is playing short passing and a high tempp game with a high defensive line. I think we might also find that the AI is playing with an extra man in midfield and is so dominating posession. The OP's team are already more fatigued than is ideal and faced with chasing the ball and being forced to defend so high up the pitch it is a recipe for disaster.

You lot really make me laugh.

[Jack Rudd]

But the point here is to prove is:

Even in the most unfavourable turn of events, even with a weakened roster, even with a shabby tactic created by a newbie, 10 replays of the same AC Milan v Inter Milan should NEVER end up with a 0-10 record.

Why? If it is an even match, the probability of a 0-10 record in Inter's favour is 1/1024. Unlikely, but given how often FM gets played, barely notable.

Increase the base probability of an Inter victory, and this 10-0 record becomes noticeably more likely. At 0.55 it's 1/395, at 0.6 it's 1/165, at 0.65 it's 1/74, at 0.7 it's 1/35 (all rounded to the nearest integer).

[Serdar]

I think the OP have tried this couple of times instead of 30 since he is always giving examples of the same 2 attempts.. I believe if he or someone else tries Inter vs AC Milan game 30 times with reasonable squads, the side will worse morale and tactics will eventally win some games.

Most of us already know the the match is processed until end once we make a change and each time we change a tactic or make a new team talk same thing happens again. But in addition to it; they use random number generation for many things in between. And this random generation is the reason why an identical conditions may end up with different results. In a very odd case the random generation may use similar seed in two occasions and that will lead to ideantical games, this is actually how they play replays of the matches(at least I believe so) so they save starting conditions, user manager input and starting random number seed, given this information everything can be simulated in exact same way again and again.

[ensar13]

Hi, sorry for waiting. rapidshare is doing his job. 60% until now. So, I have 10 downloads, so could somebody when has download it, upload it that some other can have it?

When you download it, try to use my tactics, or try it with yours.

In it is my formation, and I change it later or after 15 minute to an other (...team104PTS moje)

and some other with defense formation. It is not about tired players, Inter sometimes win 3:0 2:0 4:1, but sometimes they get my result. But I never get their lead of 1:0 3 times I had it and never could equalise. On other side, the AI get it for 6 times a equaliser. I had a 0:2 on the first 25' and they scored a corner goal in 48' and in 78' 2:2 They won in extra-time (i had just a striker, formation: knap106)

But the most that make me angry are the penaltys, the free-kicks from no where, and stying defender, in the last 10 min of the game.

And yes, I used a tactic for 5 games in the row. 2 times inter had a RED card, once they got Ibra injuried, but they got the equaliser even with 10 man and a injuried Ibra

And my Pato and Vagner Love are simply shooting the camera-man behind the goal (in the next reload they are able to shoot on the goal)

So yess, the AI cheat on this way, letting my strikers not to shoot on goal, or injuring my player in the 78' when I have used my 3 change, or giving me a red card for my keeper for some foul (he hold the ball on the edge of the corner, he made a long shoot, and there it was, a straight RED card. In real football the refree would get for this mistake a 1 year ban because he sold the game to the opposition). So, I cheat back with a reload. I can't accept that I lose a match where I am better, and the AI use to win with injuring my players and giving free-kicks from nowhere and penaltys.

[ensar13]

http://rapidshare.com/files/274681997/28_august.fm.html

[chopper99]

Hi, sorry for waiting. rapidshare is doing his job. 60% until now. So, I have 10 downloads, so could somebody when has download it, upload it that some other can have it?

When you download it, try to use my tactics, or try it with yours.

In it is my formation, and I change it later or after 15 minute to an other (...team104PTS moje)

and some other with defense formation. It is not about tired players, Inter sometimes win 3:0 2:0 4:1, but sometimes they get my result. But I never get their lead of 1:0 3 times I had it and never could equalise. On other side, the AI get it for 6 times a equaliser. I had a 0:2 on the first 25' and they scored a corner goal in 48' and in 78' 2:2 They won in extra-time (i had just a striker, formation: knap106)

But the most that make me angry are the penaltys, the free-kicks from no where, and stying defender, in the last 10 min of the game.

And yes, I used a tactic for 5 games in the row. 2 times inter had a RED card, once they got Ibra injuried, but they got the equaliser even with 10 man and a injuried Ibra

And my Pato and Vagner Love are simply shooting the camera-man behind the goal (in the next reload they are able to shoot on the goal)

So yess, the AI cheat on this way, letting my strikers not to shoot on goal, or injuring my player in the 78' when I have used my 3 change, or giving me a red card for my keeper for some foul (he hold the ball on the edge of the corner, he made a long shoot, and there it was, a straight RED card. In real football the refree would get for this mistake a 1 year ban because he sold the game to the opposition). So, I cheat back with a reload. I can't accept that I lose a match where I am better, and the AI use to win with injuring my players and giving free-kicks from nowhere and penaltys.

All of this is just called bad luck I'm afraid. The game does not cheat you.

But thanks for uploading the save. I'm at work now so can't try it but hopefully some people will.

[Elrithral]

OP, can you post your full set of results and I will play this save 30 times tonight and compare tomorrow? Please, thanks.

[knap]

Changed to Ass Man teamtalks.

Happy to send game back

[Jimbokav1971]

All of this is just called bad luck I'm afraid. The game does not cheat you.

But thanks for uploading the save. I'm at work now so can't try it but hopefully some people will.

I will give it the "chopper treatment" and post my results.

[Elrithral]

I will give it the "chopper treatment"

That sounds quite threatening.

[ensar13]

hehe

congratulation.

[chopper99]

Well that was quicker than I expected Knap

[B1G_D]

To clarify Knap, all you changed was letting the assman do the teamtalks?

That result could just be because your AI is so used to losing against you!

[chopper99]

As I said earlier:

Although the OP hasn't uploaded his save, if anyone else has this situation I'd hope they would, just so that we can once again put this to bed and prove that it's all nonsense.

I think it's safe to say that this has been done now.

[TheMister]

I think it's safe to say that this has been done now.

LMAO Chopper. You honestly think there won't be anyone else saying the AI cheats? Some people need/cling onto that justification to reload/use FMRTE

[Elrithral]

That result could just be because your AI is so used to losing against you!

But it's not his AI it's the OP's AI, which would be used to beating him.

[Jimbokav1971]

I am looking at this and I already have the answers. I am just going into some depth so that some of the........ less well informed will understand exactly how I have come to these conclusions.

Unfortunately it takes me a while to run the game again and again and again, (while laughing sooooo hard).:D:D:D

Give me about 5 mins for 1st update.