30 time reload, but you can't win

[Jack Rudd]

I came here to ask if this is ok, when I play Milan, my oponent is Inter, the chance are 50-50, I change 5 tactics, I reload the game 35 times, I can't get a single win?

But you had fouled up your pre-match press conference, you were using sub-optimal tactics, and your players had worse morale and condition than your opponents'. Therefore the actual winning chances were probably not 50-50, but rather more in Inter's favour.

[backpackant]

Exactly. We know how football works in real life but in FM we have to adapt. Some people adapt during a save (reloading games for learning purposes) while others do not want to break the religious purity of their main save, so they develop parallel saves to learn and be prepared. Which of the two is cheating? Is there a chaplain or cardinal who can answer this for us? It is a very important question.

Let us go to the second important question for tonight. Someone brags about his trophies but in fact he has used fmrte. Another one brags about his trophies but in fact he has spend endless hours of reloading and tweaking to find a set of unbeatable tactics. Who has actually lied to us about their achievements? Carefull, it is not an easy answer.

Ha ha! Maybe that should be the ultimate member status - First teamer, International, Superstar, then Chaplain.

But on to your second question, it is actually pretty simple IMO. I have found no 100% unbeatable tactics in FM09. If they are there I don't know about them. My experimenting is simply to understand what happens when you do "X" to a slider. Before the lengthy TT&F even came out, I worked out that "Attacking" mentality was different to "Often" forward runs. In FM08, you frequently found match engine-exploiting tactics that meant an unbeaten season was pretty simple once you signed teh best players.

And on the subject of signing players, perhaps this is a bigger exploit than tweaking tactics via reloads etc. I now know who the best players on the game are. I know if I sign Saivet I'll have a superstar in a few years, so how about that for a complicated question? If I sign Kakuta and Saivet in year one, knowing they'll be stars in 5-6 years, am I cheating then?

An experimental save to understand the Match Engine is one thing - nothing in that guarantees success, and could even be viewed as "training" the manager, much like getting the Uefa coaching badge. But KNOWING who the best players in the game are? Arsenal wouldn't have bought Jeffers, Middlesbrough wouldn't have bought Ricketts... but then you have the success stories of Ronaldo and Rooney...

I'll have to ponder that for a while. Definitely not a pure game, tho.

[ensar13]

If AI cheats?

Made it so: Inter - Milan

You saw the save and knows how inter play. I let Milan play with Kaka going forward.

A good killing pass from Kaka for VL he get the ball, shoot, and it's 0:1 min. 17'

Second chance, Pato strikers the Cesar has the ball. min. 31' Cambiasso gets a RED CARD.

Now, you get 3-4 chances to the break, but they don't want to go in.

Half-time

What would you do?

[DivineOne]

Congratulate Si on making an sentient program.

[chopper99]

If AI cheats?

Made it so: Inter - Milan

You saw the save and knows how inter play. I let Milan play with Kaka going forward.

A good killing pass from Kaka for VL he get the ball, shoot, and it's 0:1 min. 17'

Second chance, Pato strikers the Cesar has the ball. min. 31' Cambiasso gets a RED CARD.

Now, you get 3-4 chances to the break, but they don't want to go in.

Half-time

What would you do?

Honestly? I would put it down to bad luck and move on.

But as has been said, each to their own. Everyone can play their own game however they want.

[Jimbokav1971]

Svenc

Absolutely, yes. Not your understanding of it, rather than the implications: You're trying to say that at least in theory keeping the passing slider to the far left whilst putting tempo to the far right would be the most effective thing to do.

No that's not what I was saying or implying at all. I hadn't got as far as saying what was the most effective thing to do at all. I was simply trying to give the poor OP some sort of basic grasp of how it works.

Using the extremes as an example is always a hard thing to do, but as I was trying to cmpare it to real life, it was easier to explaing it in that way. Also, because the OP seemed intent on using extremes of slider use in his tactic, I needed to expand on that.

My own tactic very rarely uses the extremes of tempo or passinig style, but if I had try to explain that to the OP then I think he would have been lost after 1 line. I'm am positive that I do not understand the "notches" as effectively as wwfan or others might and am certainly no expert.

By explaining it in the manner I did, I think you would agree that I gave him a "basic grounding" in how some of the sliders work. Of course if you are a more experienced player, then you will know that there are more effective settings on each slider, (towards the middle and away from both extremes), but that isn't as easily explained in laymans terms. Remember that I am not trying to create a super-effective tactic for him. I am trying to explain why his existing tactic was not working and rying to suggest a starting point for him to start working from.

I would also point out that in only playing as Barcelona, and the World class players in that squad, you are hindering many of your "experiments". I usually play as a lower league team with a shocking level of technical ability and it is with that experience, (together with playing at the top level), that I can back up my suggestions. You have only experience with players of a significant level of technical/mental ability to draw conclusions from. I would suggest that had you also experimented with players who do not have these abilities then you would agree with me.

In any case feel free to dissagree, (as I'm sure many do). My intention wasn;'t to give him a good tactic, but to give him information that would make him more able to design his own tactic.

Rather than wasting your time claiming I am wrong though, (which may or may not be the case), why don't you take ensar13 under your wing and give him the benefit of your knowledge and experience with Barca. As far as I can see, I am the only poster who has posted to any great degree in a positive manner with regard to tactical advice for him.

[ensar13]

What I have done?

I let play the same tactic TEAM 104

told them encourage, mentality was play good and play with confidence.

5 shoots an no one on goal. Ok, it is min. 60'

I took 4-4-2 rebel

---------VL--Pato

l l l

Srna--Flamini--Kaka--Gattuso

l

Kala---Nesta---Tiago--Zambro

mentality: Norm +3

freedom: Norm -3

passing: mixed

time wasting mixed

defensive line: Norm +2

So i just want to close the game. I have 11, they 10 players.

In the min. 75 i will take the wasting between norm and max and after the 83' it will be max.

So, why do I get a penalty in 72'?

They made 1 or 2 chances, 2 long shoots, and that's it. And now, Stankovic comes from right, no one attacks him, they just run with him, and when he is in the box near the corner, Kala went on the ball, both are standing, and the refree wistle a penalty. OK, it is a penalty. But why? I made so much chances, and after the red card just 2 shoots went on goal, every other went up, right, left. I take the game, and the AI gets a penalty. Why?

This is something that I can't understand in the game.

You would say that's normal, but it happened on the same way 8 times in reloads. Not that like, but I have the lead, they have red or injuried player, I can't score more, so I close the game, (because 3 times I let it so play, and they equalise with Ibra or Cambiasso with a long shoot) and they get penalty, corner goal or a free kick on the edge of the area.

My point is, sometimes, even if you have the best tactic, the best mentality, everything the best, AI get the equaliser. I find this ok. But not in this match, where the AI gets these equaliser a more times that the normaly rate

[wwfan]

If AI cheats?

Made it so: Inter - Milan

You saw the save and knows how inter play. I let Milan play with Kaka going forward.

A good killing pass from Kaka for VL he get the ball, shoot, and it's 0:1 min. 17'

Second chance, Pato strikers the Cesar has the ball. min. 31' Cambiasso gets a RED CARD.

Now, you get 3-4 chances to the break, but they don't want to go in.

Half-time

What would you do?

Big match, 1-0 up against ten men at half-time?

I'd play a possession-focused game for the opening half an hour of the second half and probe for a second. If I went 2-0 up I'd play keep ball. If I were still only 1-0 up with 15 mins left, I'd sit back, play keep ball and try to hit them on the counter, taking advantage of the extra man as they were forced to push forward.

However, I know my tactical structure is sound so I have many such options. From others' observations, it seems like you have major structural issues, which means you can't really do that.

[ensar13]

I understand you Fan, but why am I not so lucky in this match to get a equaliser after min. 80'?

Why do I have to make the whole job, and AI just gets a goal as a gift?

p.s. ok, i admit that I got 4-5 times a gifted goal, and 2 times a win after min. 86'

But why can't I get this in this match?

Not that I want this, but when the AI get's it so often, why can't I too? It's making me sick, but I still play the game

[Jimbokav1971]

ensar. It's very hard for us to give advice because we do not know the individual instructions you have given to players and we also do not know the set-up/formation that Inter are playing.

You do have to understand though that this is not a typical game in that (1) it is a highly charged local derby and (2) it is early on in the season so fitness is an issue for both teams, (more so for your team if I remember correctly).

I mentioned earlier that one of my 4 tactics is a "close out" tactic which is designed for just this eventuality.

It involved removing a SC and replacing him with a 2nd DM, (but then remember that you have to give this player different instructions that you originally had set for the SC.

Mt particular tactic also involves 1 of my SC's playing with only 50% mentality, and this is the player I remove. I then prefer to defend slightly deeper to draw the opposition onto me and then look to hit them on the counter with a longer ball to my speedy TM, (who ideally is running into the corners). He is set to hold ball up and cross never, so ideally he will pass the ball back and we will find ourselves retaining posession in the opposition half, At the same time, our increased posession will be tyring out the opposition as they attemt to chase the ball and close us down while a man short.

Also, remember what i said about the individual instructions of your DL and DR, (both were very attacking). There is no point changing your overall team instructions if you keep the individual instructions at forward runs often. The idea after all is that you sit back, draw them onto you, and then look to hit on the break.

The key to closing the gae out is retaining posession and this is best done with many "layers" of players, (not sure if anyone else agrees with me on that though).

What I mean by a layer is a "line" on the formation screen.

GK is line 1

SW is line 2

DL, DR & Dc are line 3

DM WBL & WBR are line 4

MC, MR, & ML are line 5

AML, AMR, AMc are line 6

SC is line 7.

Probably more important that what your own formation though is the formation of the oppositions formation.

Look at where they are playing and look to explaot the gaps that they will surely leave.

[Elrithral]

Because your tactical frailties have handed them that gift.

In the lead with 10 to go, did you change your tactics, did the AI change their tactics?

[Svenc]

Rather than wasting your time claiming I am wrong though, (which may or may not be the case), why don't you take ensar13 under your wing and give him the benefit of your knowledge and experience with Barca.

I won't for the simple reason that I'm no expert myself. It was a bit off for a relative newcomer like me trying to engage in a discussion with somebody that has been obviously playing the game for years in this very thread, but most recently some of those things really caused my brain to ache. And in this state of mind reading through some of this thread yesterday night caused my head to royally explode. It's a pity that SI themselves want to keep it all a bit of a puzzle themselves. To come to this conclusion you don't need to look any further than the game's manual - or all those guides contradicting themselves.

Anyway, carry on.

[fdawsoniv]

I have a mentality which means that I would prefer 5 wins and 5 draws, (so that's 20 points gained from a possible 30), to 7 wins and 3 losses, (21 points gained from a possible 30).

I tend to play with 4 tactics.

1. Attacking (home)

Jimbo,

I took the first post to be confirmation that you employed a defensive tactic. However, reading it again, I think I received the wrong message. My apologies.

I don't want to copy your tactic. Twice I have taken someone else's tactic so I could see a finished product to try and learn from, but I don't think it's really helped my tactical understanding. If you are willing to share any insights or instructions on how to implement a controlling style of play, I would be glad to listen.

When you said you would rather W5 D5 than W7 L3, I couldn't agree more. I don't get too excited about goals scored, unless it's a late winner or something like that. What gets me more 'into' the game is conceding. I simply hate it. Most people take on the mantra, "If you can't score, you can't win." I prefer to follow the words of the great American football coach Paul "Bear" Bryant, "If your opponents can't score, you can't lose."

Strangely enough, even though I'm currently using a borrowed tactic that is supposedly very attacking, I'm getting mostly 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 type results. I think it would be interesting to compare your thoughts on controlling play with this guy's setup. To be fair, though, I would bet the lack of dominance has more to do with new manager, new tactic, new players, and language barrier for many than the tactic itself. Then again, we're about 20 games in, shouldn't this be getting better?

[Indi75]

Still waiting for the upload. After which several of us are gonna put this to bed for good by winning the game by 2 or 3 clear goals.

[Elrithral]

fdawsoniv, I would be happy to share my "control", 3 DM tactic with you and give you some pointers. Currently top of Serie A, 11 wins and 3 draws, 4 conceded.

Not prolific, the odd big win, but mostly 1 or 2 nils.

Still waiting for the upload. After which several of us are gonna put this to bed for good by winning the game by 2 or 3 clear goals.

What upload? The OP's save? He's already uploaded it and a few posters have already won games.

[Jimbokav1971]

Svenc.

I do agree with you. lol Honestly I do.

Upon the release of FM08, it took me about 2 months just to work out how to close down effectively with my full-backs, (only for SI to then admit that there was an issue with closing down that they tried to rectify in a subsequent patch, (making all the work spent finding an in game solution completely worthless).

I can't speak for the guides, (because I don't read them), but I do know that some people who give advice know what they are taling about, (Chopper, dafuge and wwfan to name just 3 in this thread). A guide is only as good as the person writing it.

The problem with SI and any guide/manual that they might want to create, is that they want to keep it a bit of a secret, (many people like me prefer the hard game we have now when we compare it with the easy goal-fest that we had in the days of CM03/04). As it is, it is possible to be succesfull to such a ridiculous degree that it would really blow your mind to see some of the things that have been achieved in the challenge forum or records thread.

SI have gone part of the way towards satisfying the pick up and play generation by catering for them via FMH.

FML is also more geared towads these people from what I understand.

So that leaves us with the hardcore if you like. The "proper" football managers who demand a more in depth game. I am guessing that the direction in which the 3 different games have gone is as a result of feedback that SI have received. They have 3 very seperate games all based upon a single theme but all trying to attract a very different market. I have a 12 year old son who plays FM and until recently he has eally struggled with the tactical side of the game, and it is only after quite long and drawn out and in depth explanations from me that the penny has droped. From Ensars 13 at the end of his name I am guessing that he might be of a similar age and encountering similar problems. That's part of the reason why I am interested in helping him.

My own personal opinion is that FM9 is now not really suitable for the 3+ market that it advertises, although I think the understanding it gives to youngsters about positional awareness and tactics, (before they encounter them in real life), is quite simpl astonishing. When I used to watch my son play football I was amazed that while technically not as gifted as some of the better players in his group, his ability to find space and see a pass was FAR more apparrant than some of the others.

Anyway, I'm saying that while I agree with you that it is hard, I am afraid that I must also say that I love that the game is as challenging as it is. For those that are struggling I also know that there ae in depth step by step guides in the T&TGF which go into stuff in minute detail. (I know this only because I have been told). Although I do not play that way, I would suggest to any youngster to read up on these things again and again.

[Jimbokav1971]

Still waiting for the upload. After which several of us are gonna put this to bed for good by winning the game by 2 or 3 clear goals.

I won 2-0 twice, and 1-0 3 times.

[Svenc]

Anyway, I'm saying that while I agree with you that it is hard, I am afraid that I must also say that I love that the game is as challenging as it is. For those that are struggling I also know that there ae in depth step by step guides in the T&TGF which go into stuff in minute detail. (I know this only because I have been told). Although I do not play that way, I would suggest to any youngster to read up on these things again and again.

Jimbo, I LOVE a challenge, and, by the way, I'm getting trophies and promotions spots despite being some super tactics expert - I did well in my very first save ever back then. On the one hand, I don't want to go through a topic that has been discussed to death already. On the other I wanted to say that there's no reason to keep something as "simple" as the exact effect of some slider a secret or merely a hint - unless that's where all the perceived difficulty or complexity of the game is coming from. I just looked something up, and this post just made me chuckle again. And cry. So here you've got long-terms players of the game, carrying as many forum posts under their belt as league games - and they're still not quite so sure about the most common of things in the game.

Hey, are you? Am I? Is anybody?

[Jimbokav1971]

fsawsoniv.

Yeah, that's right. Although I have 4 usual tactics, even my main Attacking (h) is not actually that attacking. It's a 41212 with my left hand SC given quite DEF instructions, (for a SC), and my AMC not being very attacking either, (playing more as a pivot, that's a rugby term sorry). It is tweaked the whole time anyway to fit the opposition.

The game that I played the Inter - Milan games with was actually my counter-attacking (A) tactic, We weren't at home so I had no intention of playing my home tactic. We were also looking inferior to the opposition in terms of fitness/match practice so again I was reluctant to play an expansive game.

The other thing which I would say to Ensar is about the use of his subs. I use my subs to stop my players getting sent off and to replace injured players. I ALWAYS use the full complimant of subs. If a player gets boked in the 1st half then 99% of the time he is eplaced at the bea nbo matter who he is. The key is having the players on the bench who can cover every eventuality.

In my experinec, (watching my son play the game), the key thing with regards to tactical instructions isn;t to have a good tactic or a super tactic or even a decent tactic. The key is to understand why your tactic either does or doesn't work. Sometimes it takes ages to work this out but sometimes it's clear straight away.

[Jimbokav1971]

Jimbo, I LOVE a challenge, and, by the way, I'm getting trophies and promotions spots despite being some super tactics expert - I did well in my very first save ever back then. On the one hand, I don't want to go through a topic that has been discussed to death already. On the other I wanted to say that there's no reason to keep something as "simple" as the exact effect of some slider a secret or merely a hint - unless that's where all the perceived difficulty or complexity of the game is coming from. I just looked something up, and this post just made me chuckle again. And cry. So here you've got long-terms players of the game, carrying as many forum posts under their belt as league games - and they're still not quite so sure on the most common of things in the game.

If Cleon say it, it must be true. lol

[ensar13]

I am 26 and the 13 is my lucky number after 7. I carried 7 in my first team, and when I was 17, I got 13 on my back

And now to tactic. I played the hour with same tactic. After that, I changed complete tactic. Every player got's his new instruction, the position, and passing. So, I just wanted to close the game. Inter let play 4-2-2-1 with Ibra in front and the AML and AMR. And they got me.

But it's ok, I don't care any more. I am now at 28th oktober, and I changed the tactic a little and now it works very fine

[fdawsoniv]

I feel as though I can never figure out why thing do or do not work, though, given I started at a tactical knowledge base of 0 and face numerous possible causes.

I'm hoping this match analyzer in FM10 helps me in this regard.

[dafuge]

In this case my friend dafuge you are in no way different to someone who never plays the demo but does all the reloading you do beforehand, during his game. Both you and him use reloading extensively (it does not really matter at which point in time). I am glad we are getting somewhere here. I hope soon all this prejudice will seize to exist.

My reloading with the demo is just to get used to new features in the game, such as the changes to the ME and how my tactics will respond to them. I also use the demo to try out the new features, often doing things I wouldn't ever dream of doing in my real game. I also tend to manage teams like Chelsea and Man Utd, something I'd never do with the full game.

I think there's a very big difference in reloading to test the game out and reloading to get results. I wouldn't reload to get wins, I would reload regardless of the result just to try things out.

[knap]

dafuge

Do you do a guide to LLM such as when to change from semi, as only ever tried BSP so far.

I agree with Backpackant in that test games are just a coaching badge for FM.

With Everton scouting on FM database anything goes re player signing unless using LLM rules.

[backpackant]

Just to say I'm bowing out of any discussion on cheating. People have their views, and ultimately I don't think my opinion matters to them, so hey, hope you enjoy your game. No judgement, no sarcasm. I'm back on topic.

My first go at this save:

http://img188.imageshack.us/i/ac1g.jpg/

Team played:

http://img188.imageshack.us/i/ac2i.jpg/

http://img188.imageshack.us/i/ac3jc.jpg/

Admittedly the sending off was a little helpful, but I also handicapped by neglecting to notice Ronaldinho was starting at 76%. Before the sending off I was dominating anyway.

IMO this and all the other wins in the thread prove beyond any doubt there is no "cheating" or even a some sort of tweaking to make things harder for the human user. It's just that the OP doesn't really understand the game's tactics. Some tactics have wingers and/or strikers set to try "through balls often" which is something that just doesn't work - when you set something to "often" the player will seek to do it as often as possible, so whenever there is any opportunity to do so he'll try. Sure they shouldn't "never" try this, but a "mixed" setting if far more appropriate to wide players, and also strikers. This is just one example.

In other words:

Yeah...

... it's your tactics.

(sorry)

[knap]

backpackant

If you take a look at OMG tactics you will find TTB often for all 11 players, also uses HUB on all players, slow tempo (1) and short passing (1).

[SCIAG]

I find that TTB often for strikers sees them kick the ball forward at random sometimes. It can be the same for wingers in some situations too. If they don't see any other option, they'll hit a random ball forwards with nobody nearby and won't try to get it. I find myself agreeing with backpackant there.

[knap]

SCIAG

I'm just saying there are no hard and fast rules, if you take tempo and passing

Sexy football is fast direct

Tyler fast short

OMG slow short

I use usually use TTBs Often on MCs and 1 striker only, a halfway house.

The proof is only when someone uploads their winning tactic for ensar to use and win the game.

[dafuge]

The proof is only when someone uploads their winning tactic for ensar to use and win the game.

I did it with one of the default tactics, he could give that a go.

[dafuge]

dafuge

Do you do a guide to LLM such as when to change from semi, as only ever tried BSP so far.

I've never written any guides for the game, unlike a loot f the other mods. I just tend to play it a lot and tell everyone about my experiences.

[knap]

dafuge

How do you approach changing from a semi basis to pro?

[tak]

My reloading with the demo is just to get used to new features in the game, such as the changes to the ME and how my tactics will respond to them. I also use the demo to try out the new features, often doing things I wouldn't ever dream of doing in my real game. I also tend to manage teams like Chelsea and Man Utd, something I'd never do with the full game.

I think there's a very big difference in reloading to test the game out and reloading to get results. I wouldn't reload to get wins, I would reload regardless of the result just to try things out.

Playing the demo is like reloading matches. Playing the demo before your "real" game helps you to get results. You learn the tricks, you learn the stars of tomorrow etc. Then you go back in time and apply your knowledge. Same as what the re-loader does. He also goes back in time to apply his knowledge.

[dafuge]

Playing the demo is like reloading matches. Playing the demo before your "real" game helps you to get results. You learn the tricks, you learn the stars of tomorrow etc. Then you go back in time and apply your knowledge. Same as what the re-loader does. He also goes back in time to apply his knowledge.

I'd agree that playing the demo gives you an advantage when it comes to the full game in terms of familiarity but I can't see how managing Chelsea for 6 months will give me that much direct knowledge to use with a club like FC United or Dartford when I play the full game. That is why I always manage a big club with the demo, I don't want to play the same way as when I start with the full game.

I also think it is pretty obvious from the results and the 'identical matches' that the OP experienced that he did not use the reloading exercise as a 'trial and improvement' method to get results. He clearly kept everything the same and just kept reloading in the hope of a win.

[dafuge]

dafuge

How do you approach changing from a semi basis to pro?

In England it will happen automatically when you reach League 2. There is a possibility that it can happen earlier but only if the club has an unusually large bank balance and reputation. Promotion is pretty much the only thing you can do to help the club turn pro, signing players on full time contracts makes no difference to it happening.

[tak]

I'd agree that playing the demo gives you an advantage when it comes to the full game in terms of familiarity but I can't see how managing Chelsea for 6 months will give me that much direct knowledge to use with a club like FC United or Dartford when I play the full game. That is why I always manage a big club with the demo, I don't want to play the same way as when I start with the full game.

I also think it is pretty obvious from the results and the 'identical matches' that the OP experienced that he did not use the reloading exercise as a 'trial and improvement' method to get results. He clearly kept everything the same and just kept reloading in the hope of a win.

Everyone who reloads, or plays a game for six months and then goes back in time, or looks at genie scout does it in the hope of a win. How is our friend different?

[Sethivict]

More experimentation needed

[dafuge]

Everyone who reloads, or plays a game for six months and then goes back in time, or looks at genie scout does it in the hope of a win. How is our friend different?

He wasn't reloading to learn anything.

[hilton210916]

The OP is clearly living in the matrix.

[Giarc Ronyag]

The OP is clearly living in the matrix.

lol, that did make me laugh