30 time reload, but you can't win

[Jimbokav1971]

Ok. Rather than just changing the tactics and changing the team selection and doing my own Ass Man team-talks, I will try and replicate what the OP experienced and then slowly change things one at a time so that we can see what might impact on this and what might not.

Before I get to the experiment though, I must tell you that I find it hilarious that someone who is complaining that the AI is cheating is managing 4 different teams in 1 save. Let me guess. They are all just family/friends and you are playing a hotseat game. lol

Might I also use this opportunity to point out that contrary to the OP's claims, only 4 of his starting XI had superb morale at the beginning of the game.

I thought I would have a look to see if there was a "next opposition" scouting report for this game and there was. In fact from none other than Mr Maldini Snr.

Inter are likely to field a 442 formation. The pitch at Sade Louis II is long which will favour teams playing a direct style. If defenders push up there will be a lot of space to exploit in behind them for the quicker players to take advantage of. Mr Maldini believes that the skill of Ibrahimovic may necessitate playing an anchorman in midfield to help our defence.

Anyway, first of all I will go on holiday and let the Ass Man play the game 10 times.

The Ass Man is Tassotti by the way who prefers a 343 formation. Now before we start, as we have been advised to play a holding midfielder in front of the back 4 and are acually with one of the existing defenders I would suggest that a 343 formation will not go well.

Inter 0 AC Milan 2

Kaka (MIL) with goals in the 7th and 40th minutes and Cambiasso (INT) sent off 77.

Inter 1 AC Milan 0

Palumbo (INT) with a 9th minute goal and Nesta (MIL) seeing red in the 69th minute.

Inter 0 AC Milan 1.

V-L(MIL) got the goal in the 58th minute but Thiago Silva (MIL) made kept up the 100% red card record in injury time

Inter 3 AC Milan 1.

V-L (MIL) opened the scoring after only 3 minutes before Ibrahimovic got a pen at 9 and then his 2nd on 30 and Maicon wrapped things up in the 38th minute.

Inter 3 AC Milan 0.

Palumbo and Maxwell with first half goals before both Gattusso and Kaladze (both MIL) are sent off and Ibrahimovic adds a 3rd.

Inter 2 AC Milan 3.

A hat-trick from V-L (saw off a couple off a Maxwell goals and an OG but it did need extra-time. Palombo made sure that the quoto of red cards in this fixture did not drop.

Inter 2 AC Milan 0.

Ibrahimovic got both, (1 pen)

Inter 0 AC MIlan 1.

Srna (MIL) with the goal from a direct free-kick).

Inter 3 AC Milan 0.

Cambiasso, Chivu (Pen) and Maxwell got the goals. Gattusso getting his 2nd yellow card in the 71st minute with the score at 2-0 just to finish things early.

Inter 0 AC Milan 2.

V-L and Sjrna with early goals finished the game off as early as the 20th minute.

So with the Ass Man in charge while I went on holiday, Inter won 5 games and AC Milan won 5 games with 1 games requiring extra-time to provide a winner.

[Jimbokav1971]

So now I will do the same thing again.

Only this time when going on holiday I will instruct the Ass Man to "use current match tactics" and "use current team selection where possible".

Inter 1 AC Milan 3.

Pato, V-L & Kaka (pen) with 1st half goals for Milan before Ibrahimovic got a 72nd minute consolation and then Samuel was sent off (79)

Inter 1 AC Milan 4.

Walter Samuel giften Milan an early OG and then Thisgo Silva helped himslef to a hat-trick before Cambiasso got a consolation and then Samuel got his marching orders for a 2nd yellow late on.

Inter 2 AC Milan 1.

Cambiasso with an early goal and then a winner in injury time. Pato hitting back for Milan.

Inter 1 AC Milan 0.

Palombo with the only goal just before the break.

I didn't really look at the other games other than for scorers or red cards but I looked at this one. Posession was shared equally but Inter had 14 shots, (7 on target), to Milans 1 shot, (not on target). Inter also made 18 key passes to Milans 5. This was a complete drubbing of a 1-0 if ever I saw one.

Inter 0 AC Milan 1.

Thisgo Silva with a goal after 20 before Veloso (MIL) was sent off just after the hour.

Inter 2 AC Milan 0

Ibrahimovic and Chivu with injury time goals but to be honest it would have been an outrage if they had lost. It was Inter all the way.

Inter 4 AC Milan 1.

Absolute one-sided dominance from Inter. Milan were lucky to get o never mind about 1.

Inter 1 AC Milan 2.

Mancini with the opener on 22 for Inter but a quick reply in 24 from Pato and then a winner Velose game Milan quite a deserved win.

Inter 1 AC Milan 0.

Ibrahimovic got the goal as early as the 2nd minute and it was all over bar the show-boating as Inter passed Milan to death.

Inter 1 AC Milan 0.

Palumbo with a goal after 8 minutes followed by complete dominance from Inter until Criscito got sent off in injury time. Akinfeev got MOM as Milan were absolutely hammered.

So Milan won 6 of these games with the OP's own tactics and Milan won the other 4.

[SCIAG]

Pretty conclusive Jimbo

[Jimbokav1971]

Stage 3 of this experiment was to follow the advice given by Mr Maldini and play a deep defensive line with DM sitting in front with lodw closineg down, (sow that he woulod not be draggeld outl of poosition). I also followed his advice firther in that I instructed the players to play with a slower tempo and a more direct style, and also added in counter-attackin, TM, run onto ball and set the overall mentality dont to 50%

I am ending the experiment here because halfway through stage 3 I have won 5/5 scoring 8 goals and conceding none.

To the original poster I would say that your tactics are part of the reason, (you are simply not listening to the advice that your scouts are giving you), and if you dont then why are you bothering asking them to scout next opposition, (and pitch).

I woudl also suggest that you seriously need to look at your use of the team-talks as I think you are seriously underachieving there. If in doubt just get the Ass Man to give you his opinion.

So can we finally put to bed now any ridiculous claim that you were cheated in any way. You need to learn from yours mistakes and not look to blame the AI at every opportunity.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

So all this and the bloody user was just useless, what a disappointment!

[DivineOne]

Nah, it would have been a disappointment if what he was claiming was the truth.

[matt_132]

it was clearly his computer

[tak]

Yes I managed to play 36 games in a row. Let us see what the results were:

- 26 times a Milan player saw a red card, while Milan was 1-0 up.

- Of those 26 times, 26 Inter equalised very quickly despite securing my defence and then won either in normal or extra time.

- 10 times I conceded in the first ten minutes, lost a million chances and then the game ended.

Note that I did not change the tactics at all. But 26 out of 36 times the exact sequence of things occured. This, in statistics, in medicine, in engineering is called pre-determination. Strange how this machine works. I will look at it deeper and I will give you my conclusions.

[Giarc Ronyag]

it's something most likely to do with your tactics, lack of quality, lack of mangerial ability in general.... reloading the game is boring, where is the challenge? well actually, you seem to be finding even that challenging....

[dafuge]

http://rapidshare.com/files/274681997/28_august.fm.html

I missed out due to a download limit of ten

Is anyone who got it able to put it up for download?

[Neji]

I missed out due to a download limit of ten

Is anyone who got it able to put it up for download?

I'm not on my own computer atm but once I get back, I will try and get it uploaded for you

Anyone know anywhere decent to upload to? ie no limits

[tak]

.... reloading the game is boring, where is the challenge? ....

There where about 100,000 users in this thread tearing their clothes apart asking for the save so that they can try it as many times it took them to win. And you question is "where is the challenge?"

[Giarc Ronyag]

im talking about the original comment, depends how you want to play the game but reloading i think is pointless.

[knap]

Jimbokav

Could you upload the tactic you used.

I will post a game link once uploaded.

[earmack]

I used to reload fm 05 all the time, some games were definetely games I couldnt effect the result of*.

* some games a reload and no tactical changes = different result, some game half a dozen reloads = same result every time (regardless of different tactical instructions/pre match comments ore team talks). One memorable game was my Portugal World Cup semi final against USA, I lost the game on penalties TWELVE times (reloads) after dominating every time, on the THIRTIENTH go we won on penalties after being dominated all game. This prompted me to delete the game from my hard drive.

[DivineOne]

As I said earlier:

I think it's safe to say that this has been done now.

LMAO Chopper. You honestly think there won't be anyone else saying the AI cheats? Some people need/cling onto that justification to reload/use FMRTE

I used to reload fm 05 all the time, some games were definetely games I couldnt effect the result of*.

* some games a reload and no tactical changes = different result, some game half a dozen reloads = same result every time (regardless of different tactical instructions/pre match comments ore team talks). One memorable game was my Portugal World Cup semi final against USA, I lost the game on penalties TWELVE times (reloads) after dominating every time, on the THIRTIENTH go we won on penalties after being dominated all game. This prompted me to delete the game from my hard drive.

And there it is ...

[earmack]

And there it is ...

Allow me to retort: I never said the game cheats, it cant its a computer. Cheating implies caring, computers dont.

What I said is EXACTLY what happened. Call losing 12 times on penalties after dominating what you want, I call it poor game design. Thankfully 06, 07, 08 and 09 have slowly whittled this nonsense down to acceptable levels. I dont reload the game now (maybe to overhaul a mistake I make like playing goalkeeper unfront due to my own idiocy or a bug effecting the game result) but I also dont see so many nonsense results and infact 09 seems to have made the problem all but dissapear (ive yet to play a game and lose 3-0 to 3 off target shots while the oppositions under-18 keeper with 15 for reflexes makes a dozen{roughly} 'fantastic'-'brilliant' saves*).

*this thing happened on 08 yesterday

[SCIAG]

I'm not on my own computer atm but once I get back, I will try and get it uploaded for you

Anyone know anywhere decent to upload to? ie no limits

Jez's place?

[Neji]

Jez's place?

Good thinking

Won't let me register though, I'll collar Jez to help

[knap]

Game link

http://www.filefront.com/14451813/28_august.fm

[dafuge]

Yes I managed to play 36 games in a row. Let us see what the results were:

- 26 times a Milan player saw a red card, while Milan was 1-0 up.

- Of those 26 times, 26 Inter equalised very quickly despite securing my defence and then won either in normal or extra time.

- 10 times I conceded in the first ten minutes, lost a million chances and then the game ended.

Note that I did not change the tactics at all. But 26 out of 36 times the exact sequence of things occured. This, in statistics, in medicine, in engineering is called pre-determination. Strange how this machine works. I will look at it deeper and I will give you my conclusions.

If you were to design a machine that could flip a coin with repeated perfect precision under perfectly identical conditions, do you think it would roughly give a 50/50 split? I hope not, in this case the coin is not biased but the conditions surrounding it are.

Have a look at the quotes earlier on in this thread, they explain why a match played under identical conditions is likely to give a similar or identical result. This is what you are seeing.

Try it again, but this time make a major change at half time, be that a different team talk, substitution or a tactical change, but make sure it is different each time. See what results you get then.

[dafuge]

Game link

http://www.filefront.com/14451813/28_august.fm

Cheers

[Wee Aja]

Well this thread has taken off. I can't play the game as I deleted FM09 from my system yesterday, which is a shame because I really wanted to give it a go. I'll just keep a close eye on this thread now that 'the lads' have got their hands on it

[tak]

The fact that a reload has become the devil itself in the eyes of our religious zealot friends is indeed the single funniest thing in these forums. And indeed shows how every form of fanaticism is so easy to spread amongst men.

However, we are faced with an oxymoron, a Catch-22 as Doc Daneeka would tell to Yossarian. Those faithfull, fanatic players are exactly the ones who have performed more reloads than those who are relaxed and cool. Here is the catch: to become such a master tactician, so elevated as to fly over the common mortals that shamelessly reload the game, one has to reload the game thousands upon thousands of times.

Do you think all those who practise the FT&F bibles and all those endless instructions about the numbers of clicks of sliders are not reloading the game? On the contrary, they are exaclty the ones that have done myriads of reloads. Or do you think they became masters and comprehented a bible that does not make sense by playing a single game extending to 2320?

Please, let's get real here lads. All those geniuses of tactics that are now scornfull against reloading have played a single game hundreds of times, tweaking and clicking.

They are like those middle aged men that forbid the young people having sex and then they visit the most pervert streets of the red light district, secretly and wearing a disguise.

I can see Jimbo, closing down the blinds and turning off the lights. He wears a mustache and shades as he repeatedly reloads a game that will teach him how many clicks to the left should the AMc be passing. Dirty, rotten scoundrel.

[Neji]

I don't see why you're discussing whether it's right to reload or not? As far as I can see, this thread is about the ME - not the rights and wrongs of reloading.

[SCIAG]

Okay, whose alias are you? No, wait, I'd know if you were an alias.

And that wouldn't teach you much about tactics tbh. You need to tweak to suit the opponent etc.

[earmack]

The fact that a reload has become the devil itself in the eyes of our religious zealot friends is indeed the single funniest thing in these forums. And indeed shows how every form of fanaticism is so easy to spread amongst men.

However, we are faced with an oxymoron, a Catch-22 as Doc Daneeka would tell to Yossarian. Those faithfull, fanatic players are exactly the ones who have performed more reloads than those who are relaxed and cool. Here is the catch: to become such a master tactician, so elevated as to fly over the common mortals that shamelessly reload the game, one has to reload the game thousands upon thousands of times.

Do you think all those who practise the FT&F bibles and all those endless instructions about the numbers of clicks of sliders are not reloading the game? On the contrary, they are exaclty the ones that have done myriads of reloads. Or do you think they became masters and comprehented a bible that does not make sense by playing a single game extending to 2320?

Please, let's get real here lads. All those geniuses of tactics that are now scornfull against reloading have played a single game hundreds of times, tweaking and clicking.

They are like those middle aged men that forbid the young people having sex and then they visit the most pervert streets of the red light district, secretly and wearing a disguise.

I can see Jimbo, closing down the blinds and turning off the lights. He wears a mustache and shades as he repeatedly reloads a game that will teach him how many clicks to the left should the AMc be passing. Dirty, rotten scoundrel.

I agree that (hilariously) reloading the game has become stigmatised (on these forums) but its not really whats being discussed here.

The most disheartening part of the thread is people bashing the hell out of the OP after some well know forum members got the save game and wrote some results down that proved his issue was tactical. That sort of stuff (the bashing as opposed to the proving of points) lowers the tone of the forums more than people ranting about the game.

[Ceching You Out]

The most disheartening part of the thread is people bashing the hell out of the OP after some well know forum members got the save game and wrote some results down that proved his issue was tactical. That sort of stuff (the bashing as opposed to the proving of points) lowers the tone of the forums more than people ranting about the game.

Haven't really seen the OP bashed tbh. He claimed quite strongly that no matter what he did the AI was pre-determined to win the game. When in short order it's more or less proved that his mistakes were causing the defeats, it's only fair to point that out.

It's not as if the OP neutrally stated the situation, provided examples, and asked for general opinion. Instead he automatically made the irrational leap that he played no role in his repeated losses. The majority of the opposing posters have avoided being derogatory in victory, if not exactly delicate.

[ensar13]

Hi,

so Jimbo, I am not managing 4 teams. I took Milan. This is the club I LOVE. At december Wolfsburg were 17-th in the table. And I am bosnian, so I like Dzeko and Misimovic, so I took Wolfsburg to. In summer Sunderland were in the middle of the table, so I took them to buy Keirrison and Yussuf and let them play in one Europa League. At 01.09. I let Sunderland do their work with the new manager, Brown from Hull. And the fourth manager, now it's the tirth is only there, to have a look which team is in problem with the trainer. Because, I don't want to be the whole life in Milan and Italy. So I need a good club which has problem with the manager, to ask them for job.

And now, I used this advice from you, to listen the Maldini and Tassoti. And guess what: 5 attempt: First: 3:0 (2:0). Second: 1:0 (1:0). Tirth: 2:2 (0:1) e.t. 4:2. Fourth: 3:1 (1:0) and fifth 1:1 (0:1) penalty 4:3

So I stoped the test because I had 5/5 losses, 1 on extra-time and 1 on penalty

[dafuge]

I'm going to approach this match using my usual methods, to see what happens.

Before I start though, just a bit of background information:

• Match odds - Inter 6-4(fav) AC Milan 13-8
  
• Milan have slightly better morale overall, 10 superb to Inter's 5.
  
• League media predictions - Milan 2nd, Inter 1st.
  
• Inter have better fitness - 4 'in superb condition' 2 'severely lacking match fitness' Milan have no 'superb' and 9 'severely lacking match fitness'. This could be because Inter played 7 pre season games, Milan just 4.
  
• Neither team has injury worries although Inter are missing new signing Lucho Gonzalez.
  
• Both managers have continental reputation.
  
• Inter have worldwide reputation, Milan have continental.
  
• Last season Milan won 38/38 games , Inter finished 3rd.
  
• The press conference had already been taken by the manager and I would have gone with a lot of those, but certainly not this one.
  

Attempt 1 - I used my own tried and tested tactic and chose this lineup. I took the team talk myself instead of letting the assistant take it and gave the team talk 'for the fans'. No opposition instructions were given.

Result 1

We did pretty well but my tactic really didn't suit this team. It relies on good wingers and strikers who are good in the air, Milan just don't have that.

Attempt 2 - I switched for a narrower default tactic which I thought suited the team better with this lineup. The rest was kept the same.

Result 2

It wasn't convincing and the sending off may have helped us but we made much better use of our chances with this tactic.

[Wee Aja]

I can see Jimbo, closing down the blinds and turning off the lights. He wears a mustache and shades as he repeatedly reloads a game that will teach him how many clicks to the left should the AMc be passing. Dirty, rotten scoundrel.

tak is my new favourite poster by a country mile.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Last season Milan won 38/38 games? Hmmmm something a little dodgy there I think!

[outlander]

Last season Milan won 38/38 games? Hmmmm something a little dodgy there I think!

The original poster has way, way, way too much free time

[Jimbokav1971]

I can see Jimbo, closing down the blinds and turning off the lights. He wears a mustache and shades as he repeatedly reloads a game that will teach him how many clicks to the left should the AMc be passing. Dirty, rotten scoundrel.

tak is my new favourite poster by a country mile.

Now THAT was funny.

Can I just point out that anyone who knows me from posting in these forums over the years knows that I don NOT frequent the T&TGF, (never have and never will), and as a result am not great at the game. What I am though is quite attentive. I tend to play 1 career game managing 1 single club for ages, (or until I get sacked), so that I can slowly and surely build a tactic and a squad that suits a tactic. Then as players leave/join, I can slowly tweak the tactic to suit the new squad.

This season of FM was a bit different though in that I got bored with my own game but luckily really enjoyed my season with the Monkeys/Softies and actually decided to continue that save on, (therefore giving me significant time managing a dominant club in the Premiership, something that does not usually happen to me in my games). As a result I have created a tactic which is designed to not conceded goals, (1 Premiership loss in 18 months), and just eke out wins relying largely on set-pieces, (no I do not use the corner exploit).

I am nowhere near as clued up on tactics as the likes of wwfan and dafuge, but I do know the basics of what works, (and more importantly why), and I would say that I have an especially good idea of what makes a good player at each level in bothe defense and GK. (It is my suggestion that a great many players who think that they know what they are doing actually are ALMOST as poor as the AI when it comes to selecting who is the bestp player in a particular position, (especially defenders & GK). My philosophy is simply that if I don;t conceded goals then I cannot lose.

Certainly I have taken it to extremes, but loved it all the same.

Now let's open these curtains and get some natural ligh in here, (I think I will therefore keep the shades on). I need to buy some new moustache wax for my tash, (it's soooo unkempt), and as for reloading a game........

[backpackant]

The fact that a reload has become the devil itself in the eyes of our religious zealot friends is indeed the single funniest thing in these forums. And indeed shows how every form of fanaticism is so easy to spread amongst men.

However, we are faced with an oxymoron, a Catch-22 as Doc Daneeka would tell to Yossarian. Those faithfull, fanatic players are exactly the ones who have performed more reloads than those who are relaxed and cool. Here is the catch: to become such a master tactician, so elevated as to fly over the common mortals that shamelessly reload the game, one has to reload the game thousands upon thousands of times.

Do you think all those who practise the FT&F bibles and all those endless instructions about the numbers of clicks of sliders are not reloading the game? On the contrary, they are exaclty the ones that have done myriads of reloads. Or do you think they became masters and comprehented a bible that does not make sense by playing a single game extending to 2320?

Please, let's get real here lads. All those geniuses of tactics that are now scornfull against reloading have played a single game hundreds of times, tweaking and clicking.

They are like those middle aged men that forbid the young people having sex and then they visit the most pervert streets of the red light district, secretly and wearing a disguise.

I can see Jimbo, closing down the blinds and turning off the lights. He wears a mustache and shades as he repeatedly reloads a game that will teach him how many clicks to the left should the AMc be passing. Dirty, rotten scoundrel.

Heh heh, overreact much?

On reloading: Fact is, the OP reloaded the first time because he lost and wanted to win. His game, his rules. Personally, that 36th game would have a tinge of regret about it, a sullied victory because I had to cheat. I feel that if I'm going to reload until I get the result I think I deserve I may as well take a sheet of paper and write the results out that I want and save myself £30. But like I say, you pays the money you plays the game how you like. I'm not judging, it's just how I play my game. (unless I accidentally put a GK in for a CB and lose based on that - but I don't think anyone can complain about that one).

On learning tactics: when I get a new FM I usually take a rich team I don't really care about (Chelsea/Man City et al) and just play the game. I tweak, I lose, I tweak, I lose, I tweak, I lose, I tweak, I win, tweak, win, lose, sacked. Load a new game and start again. Why don't I reload to learn tactics? It just takes too long. A week between matches is not a big deal. Do I NEVER use the reload to experiment with tactics or formations? No, but very rarely, and only to really focus on something that maybe I missed, like "why did my DMC keep getting pulled out of position? Was it because I told the team to "always" close down their AMC?" which can't be recreated in the next game because, well, it's a different team. I can't see a problem with this. I never complete those seasons anyway, and when I start a "proper" game I come over all pure and innocent.

On topic: Looking forward to trying this match out. It's been proven by at least three posters that the AI does not cheat the user, and it's the user's tactics or other applications that are flawed, but hey, just be nice to try someone else's game. Like borrowing their socks.

On pre-determination: Don't think it has been explained yet how "predetermination" works in FM. Briefly:

1. You set up your tactics

2. You give your teamtalks (affecting morale, focus, determination of your players)

3. You make opposition instructions

4. Start match. The ME then looks at what you have done and what the AI has done, and CANNOT TELL WHO IS WHO, and determines what the result will be if both teams maintain the exact same tactic at that point in time, calculating how determined your players are, their skill, the effectiveness of the tactic, the weather, etc, etc. There will always be tiny variations in this as SOME calculations have to be random.

5. As soon as you or the AI alter tactics even slightly the match engine recalculates all the variables and result is changed accordingly, so that if both teams stayed the same from THIS point, the result wouldn't alter.

6. And so on, until the final whistle.

This is a very simplified version and done from memory of how someone explained it last year, but you get the idea. The calculations are based on what you tell the ME you are going to do, and any tweaks affect the outcome, and CHANGE the result. Therefore, it is not even POSSIBLE for the game to cheat, not without the AI and ME getting all cosy.

[knap]

Jimbo

Can you upload your winning tactics and details players used.

[Jimbokav1971]

Jimbo

Can you upload your winning tactics and details players used.

You must be joking.

If you want to get a good tactic, then make your own or go to the T&TGF.

As for which players played, Tassotti picked the team, I have no idea, (remember I never watched the matches).

[tak]

On learning tactics: when I get a new FM I usually take a rich team I don't really care about (Chelsea/Man City et al) and just play the game. I tweak, I lose, I tweak, I lose, I tweak, I lose, I tweak, I win, tweak, win, lose, sacked. Load a new game and start again. Why don't I reload to learn tactics? It just takes too long. A week between matches is not a big deal. Do I NEVER use the reload to experiment with tactics or formations? No, but very rarely, and only to really focus on something that maybe I missed, like "why did my DMC keep getting pulled out of position? Was it because I told the team to "always" close down their AMC?" which can't be recreated in the next game because, well, it's a different team. I can't see a problem with this. I never complete those seasons anyway, and when I start a "proper" game I come over all pure and innocent.

I am very happy with this. The author is certain he is not doing anything wrong. Why? Because he playes two games, one to learn the tactics and then another "pure" one. How is that different from starting one game and reloading whenever one wants, to realise what went wrong?

In this religious forums, the only one without a sin is someone who buys the game, opens it, installs it, starts a new game and plays until the next version is out, reaching the year of 2432.

EVERYONE else is gulity. Both our friend the OP and the tactical magicians you see in the relevant section. If I may say so, the tactical magicians are even worse that the OP because they do all their reloads while developing their theories, and then they play their pure and inoccent games, which they present to us as great conquers of the human mind against the machine.

Those games pretend to be pure, but they do come as a result of preparation filled with illegal reloads. They are, therefore, not pure at all, but carry dirt and hypocricy. When one uses information one obtained from playing a learning save first, he is cheating because he is not approaching his "proper" save in an honest way.

I prefer the honest players who reload games at will and edit Aguero into their Monaco team as soon as the game starts and two years later they modify a transfer of Thiery Henry and grab him as well (as I did). It is not "cheating". It is immitation of a real life situation that the game cannot reproduce. Aguero went to monaco very young to watch the Grand Prix and always wanted to stay there and Henry decided to end his career in his beloved team.

[Elrithral]

I prefer the honest players who reload games at will and edit Aguero into their Monaco team as soon as the game starts and two years later they modify a transfer of Thiery Henry and grab him as well (as I did). It is not "cheating". It is immitation of a real life situation that the game cannot reproduce. Aguero went to monaco very young to watch the Grand Prix and always wanted to stay there and Henry decided to end his career in his beloved team.

Genius. That brightened up my day

I couldn't care less how someone plays their game, all power to them if they enjoy it. However, I don't think it's acceptable to do unrealistic things and then level it as a criticism of the game or SI. That doesn't make sense.

[chopper99]

In this religious forums, the only one without a sin is someone who buys the game, opens it, installs it, starts a new game and plays until the next version is out, reaching the year of 2432.

You really couldn't be more wrong.

It's been the norm for a long time now on here that people are allowed to play the game in whatever way they want, most people not only accept this but encourage it.

What is not blindly accepted is someone claiming that the AI cheats without any real proof, especially when another user can quite easily disprove their theory as os the case here.

[ensar13]

Yes, but I still have just one winning.

I tried the way of Jimbo, and got 5 losses. I don't know why it is so, but I don't care anymore.

And somebody told that, you make your decision, AI make his, and FM calculate all this and give you a match? Hmmm, AI and FM are the same "person", I mean software. So, why it is not possibel that FM give the information to AI which tactic to put, to get a win? Or, why it is not possibel that AI get from FM the best tactic to outcome my tactic, and win the match? Or, why it is not possibel that FM help AI by sending one of my player out or injuring him, or give him a penalty?

I say this, because FM helped me too. The AI was to strong, they had about 20 shoots on my goal, my Benaglio saved everything, and from no where, in the 92' Dzeko shoots, the ball past the GK, hit the post, the GK stand up and by doing this he move the ball in the goal. an away win of 2:3 hehe

When I can get something like this, why does AI can't get it too? Of cours he can, but in this match he get a lot of "lucky help" from FM

And I agree with Tak, the honesty player is that one, how start the game, play it and play it until year 2413 when FM 2010 comes out.

[tak]

But, my dear chopper, the OP was accused as a cheat just because he played 4 teams. How is it allowed then for people to do whatever they want? I think you couldn't be more wrong. The inquisition is still active and very very fanatic, let me assure you. Just look at all those posts where people admit they have reloaded the game. They always confess carefully and humbly, making sure that they say it has only been done very rarely and always give their reasons for doing so just to avoid any accusations and court marshal.

[chopper99]

The only people who made such comments were newer users to be honest, not the people who actually make a decent input to the forum. In fact, skimming through, I can only see around 4 posts in a 3 page thread that mention that he is the one cheating. That's certainly different to the picture you are trying to paint.

[Jimbokav1971]

But, my dear chopper, the OP was accused as a cheat just because he played 4 teams. How is it allowed then for people to do whatever they want? I think you couldn't be more wrong. The inquisition is still active and very very fanatic, let me assure you. Just look at all those posts where people admit they have reloaded the game. They always confess carefully and humbly, making sure that they say it has only been done very rarely and always give their reasons for doing so just to avoid any accusations and court marshal.

Tak

With respect, it was me that made the comment about him managing 4 teams, and at no point did I call him, (or anyone else), a cheat.

What I actually said was this.

Before I get to the experiment though, I must tell you that I find it hilarious that someone who is complaining that the AI is cheating is managing 4 different teams in 1 save. Let me guess. They are all just family/friends and you are playing a hotseat game. lol

As far as I'm concerned, people are free to do whatever they want with their own game.

My only problem is when they are not honest.

ensar.

I can completely undersand that you lost while trying to follow the directions of the scout, and I will try to explain why, (although this will involve me giving you soe basic tactical instruction). If I sound rude or harsh I am realy not trying to be. I am just trying to explain to you some of the basics.

First of all, you have to think how your tactics work in conjunction with other tactical insructions.

A good example of this are the 3rd and 4th sliders, (which are closely linked).

Slider 3 is passing style and is basically the length of passing that you will ask your team to use most often. If you ask them to play a short passing game then it doesn't mean that they won;t ever make long passes. It just means that your preferred passes will be short, (so you should expect them to play short passes most of the time.

Slider 4 is tempo which basically means the speed with which the ball is passed. With a high tempo the ball will be played quickly with a first touch or maybe after just 1 touch to control. With a slow tempo the player may keep the ball and have a good look around before opting what to do next. Of course, (as with passing style), although you might be asking for a slow tempo, that does not mean that your players will never play first time balls or one-twos.

Now I am guessing that you know all of the above and I am sounding particularly pompous at the moment. You are probably right but here is where it gets interesting, (and I know frm looking at yor tactic that you have not grasped this yet). Different areas of one slider impact greatly on different areas of other sliders. Let me explain.

In your tactic, you had both the passing style and the tempo sliders up past half-way. I have deleted the save no so I don't have it to view, but off the top of my head your passing style was about 60% and the passing tempo was about 70%. SO that means that you were asking them to play longer than average balls at quite a quick tempo. Now to me as someone that plays football it seems to make sense that if you want to play a high tempo game then it will work better with a shorter distance of passing. You are asking you players to make harder passes, so give them just a litte more time on the ball. If you ae adamant that you want them to play at a high tempo, (and you might be), then think about reducing the distance over which you are asking your players to pass the ball over. To give you an idea, the most effective way to make use of a 100% tempo slider is to accompany it with a 0% passing style slider. So really fast goes well with really short.

We can also go the other way of course. If you want to play a really direct game, then giving your players time to pick out and play the corect ball to the correct player in the correct position is the way forward.

Now of course as soon as you start taling about the extremes of the sliders in 0% or 100% then you leave yourself open to counter-tactics from the AI, (low closing down against a high temp passing or high closing down down against a low tempo opposition as an examle).

It goes further than that though.

I also remember that despite advice from your scout, your tactic included your defensive line slider at 100%. This basically means that you are asking your defenders to push all the way up to half-way a every opportunity. To anyone that has played the game, this is obviously very risky as it leaves oceans of space for anyone to run into and receive a simple pop over the top.

This is the reason why were being shown so many red cards in your games by the way. (The reason that the Ass Man was encountering the same things in my games was that stupidly he had opted for only 3 at the back rather than keeping with 4 and inriducing a DM).

On the other hand, defending with a defensive line slider at 0% means that you are asking them to defend deep in your penalty area, on top of your GK and this will allow midfielders to get higher up the pitch and offer more opportunities with long shots. You need to find a balance that wors for you. Defending deep might be good, but you also have to think about how that works with the instructions you are giving your full-backs. You had given yours quite attacking instructions I remember, and you probably did with the new tactics.

Things have to go together for a tactic to work.

If you are playing a high tempo game then yo also cannot ask the players to play long balls effectively.

If you are playing a deep defensive line then you must expect to offer the opposition overload opportunities if you are telling your full backs to bomb on at every opportunity.

From looking at your tactic, what struck me was that you do not understand the link between different ares of the team instructions, and that you also did not undestad how these need to relate to individual player instructions.

Your Ass man encountered red cards because he left just 3 at athe back.

You encountered red cards becase although you had 4 at the back, 2 of these were asked to get forward at every opportunity, and the other 2 were asked to eep such a high defensive line that even........ [tries to think of a really crap midfield player]....... Geoff Thomas (now there is a blast from the past and shame on you Graham Taylor for ever picking him for England), could play a pass that would leave an onrushing forward 1v1 with the GK.

Look. I am really no expert, and I'm not that good at creating tactics so I'm maybe not the ebst person to give yo advice, but I really do think you would benefit from creating your own actic from scratch just once.

many people download a succesful tactic, (you might have done), but as soon as you start to tweak it, or mess with the individual player instructions), or even sign different tyes of players, the you will come unstuck. It's an important part of the game and something you really need to put more thought into.

I didin;t look past the individual instructions of your full-bacs so I'm afraid that I can't cmment further on different ares of your team.

Sorry, (and no offence meant I promise, except towards Geoff Thomas).

[fdawsoniv]

You mean you have a defensive tactic that has actually worked? I think that does warrant a share, as the only successful ltactics I've read about are all attacking.

[Elrithral]

You mean you have a defensive tactic that has actually worked? I think that does warrant a share, as the only successful ltactics I've read about are all attacking.

I have a defensive tactic that produces clean sheets like no tomorrow. Think I went 11 without conceding, but from time to time I do struggle for goals, agaisnt teams who park the bus.

[ensar13]

Thanks Jimbo. I saved that what you said, I will look later on my team. I am now in 7.10. And the national are playing, so I will look to make a friendly match to test this.

What do you think what would be the best? I take long passes because I have a lot of players which can make a long cross and a good passing. And this is a good point to let VL and Pato dribble until Kaka and Veloso came to help them. But I want a fast game. They are good players, and they should be able to play it. I am not talking about Rimini, Pescara, Cotbus, Malaga, SUnderland,... This is Milan, and players are top payed players who know their work. So I expect they are able to play quick but to take more long passes. I like one-two game, but it use to much middfield players, and I want to over-jump the opposit middfield

I think I understoud what you say, and I will look to change it. passing is now between short and half, and tempo step above normal. and FB don't go so long upstairs. They stop 10-15 meter after the middle. Let's call it as back-up for missing MCs and AMLRs which are in front to attack.

One more time, thanks and I will take a close look to my tactic.

[Jimbokav1971]

You mean you have a defensive tactic that has actually worked? I think that does warrant a share, as the only successful ltactics I've read about are all attacking.

I have a mentality which means that I would prefer 5 wins and 5 draws, (so that's 20 points gained from a possible 30), to 7 wins and 3 losses, (21 points gained from a possible 30).

Some/many would say that my tactic is not successful at all, and my performance at FM09 would probably make me agree with them.

Still, that's the way that I like to play.

[Jimbokav1971]

ensar. Good, I'm glad it made sense.

Remember though that what works for 1 game against 1 opposition may not work against everyone.

I tend to play with 4 tactics.

1. Attacking (home).

2. Counter-attacking (away).

3. Close out game, (for when I am ahead).

4. Chase the game for when I am behind.

I try to play as often as I can with just 1 & 2, but I also regularly use 3 when I think there is danger of me losing a lead.

Within each of these tactics, I have to make adjustments to EVERY SINGLE game.

This is dependant on what strengths the opposition have and what sort of pitch we are playing on.

At home I play on the biggest pitch possible and I look to attack down the flanks.

When I am playing away, I use a more direct style and whether I counter through the middle or down the flanks depends on the pitch we are playing on. On a small/narrow pitch the wide players will have less influence so I will use the middle. On the big pitch I will use the flanks, (as I do at home).

When I am away, I prefer to play with a deeper defensive line, (it is hard to counter if you are pushed up), so bring them onto you and hit them when they are exposed.

The other thing you might want to consider is the effect the elements have on your playing style.

I know from experience that it is hard to play a short passing game on a crap pitch or one that is waterlogged. I also have experienced how hard it can be to play a direct style when a gale is blowing.

If I was to give you one last bit of advice it would be moderation in all things, (including moderation).

Rather than starting from 1 extreme of a slider and moving from there, think about starting from a more central position and move from there.

Also look at the opposition instructions and see how this can affect things.

[Brian Shanahan]

Last season Milan won 38/38 games? Hmmmm something a little dodgy there I think!

Look at his transfers from last year Seedorf, Kalac and Ambrosini to Sevilla for £20m and Capel, Emerson on loan to Portsmouth for £5m (when you'll be lucky to sell him for £500k).

If you look at Sevilla the staff changes last year are very fishy, an unknown manager Galeote there until almost December, and no mention of Manolo Jiminez.