30 time reload, but you can't win

[backpackant]

I am very happy with this. The author is certain he is not doing anything wrong. Why? Because he playes two games, one to learn the tactics and then another "pure" one. How is that different from starting one game and reloading whenever one wants, to realise what went wrong?

In this religious forums, the only one without a sin is someone who buys the game, opens it, installs it, starts a new game and plays until the next version is out, reaching the year of 2432.

1. Because it's a game, not real life. We know how football works in real life but with FM it's a simulation, so it takes time to understand how its workings relate to the game. The much-maligned slider system is fairly logical when you break it down a little, but takes some getting used to. For me, the early testing is understanding the logic and mechanics of the game in order to apply that to future saves - often the demo is sufficient for this, but the FM09 demo was so flawed, the game was very different when it came out. In FM09, after all, no tactic is flawless - the AI will beat you after a while. I find myself tweaking tactics on a regular basis and on no save has a single tactic lasted more than a couple of seasons.

2. I think you need to relax a bit with the religious stuff. No one is a fanatic here. But when folk come on the forums to say "look, I won all these trophies" but it turns out they reload whenever they lose to a "lesser" team or use FMRTE to give them £100million to spend, it's not an achievement of any merit, it's just someone saying they've enjoyed altering their game in order to appear to be good at it, and it gets people's backs up because sometimes (but not always) they start by lying about how they did it. Again, if that's what you want, just use a pen and paper. If changing the game like that gives you pleasure, I don't judge or care - it's your game, enjoy it (and no, I know the OP didn't brag, but he did reload a key match because he wanted to win it).

3. A "pure" game is all how you view it. As I said a number of times, it's up to the user how they want to play. Once I'm bored with a regular game I'll invent rules for myself (eg, only sign players under 21 or only British players), or edit a new league, or download a "legends" database, or give Leeds a Man City-style takeover, or maybe give every prem club £2billion in the bank and the same rep and same transfer budget, see what happens.

Apologies for going off topic. This was meant to be a brief reply but got carried away a bit.

Not trying to start an arguement, just trying to say there are no absolutes when it comes to playing the game. It's in the eye of the beholder, but reloading a match IS cheating, however you justify it.

[dafuge]

Jimbo

Can you upload your winning tactics and details players used.

I put mine up here:

Attempt 2 - I switched for a narrower default tactic which I thought suited the team better with this lineup. The rest was kept the same.

The tactic was the standard '4-4-2 diamond attacking' one, with no alterations.

I've tried to replicate it, although I couldn't quite remember the further team talks I gave.

This was my result

[tak]

1. Because it's a game, not real life. We know how football works in real life but with FM it's a simulation, so it takes time to understand how its workings relate to the game. The much-maligned slider system is fairly logical when you break it down a little, but takes some getting used to. For me, the early testing is understanding the logic and mechanics of the game in order to apply that to future saves - often the demo is sufficient for this, but the FM09 demo was so flawed, the game was very different when it came out. In FM09, after all, no tactic is flawless - the AI will beat you after a while. I find myself tweaking tactics on a regular basis and on no save has a single tactic lasted more than a couple of seasons.

2. I think you need to relax a bit with the religious stuff. No one is a fanatic here. But when folk come on the forums to say "look, I won all these trophies" but it turns out they reload whenever they lose to a "lesser" team or use FMRTE to give them £100million to spend, it's not an achievement of any merit, it's just someone saying they've enjoyed altering their game in order to appear to be good at it, and it gets people's backs up because sometimes (but not always) they start by lying about how they did it. Again, if that's what you want, just use a pen and paper. If changing the game like that gives you pleasure, I don't judge or care - it's your game, enjoy it (and no, I know the OP didn't brag, but he did reload a key match because he wanted to win it).

Exactly. We know how football works in real life but in FM we have to adapt. Some people adapt during a save (reloading games for learning purposes) while others do not want to break the religious purity of their main save, so they develop parallel saves to learn and be prepared. Which of the two is cheating? Is there a chaplain or cardinal who can answer this for us? It is a very important question.

Let us go to the second important question for tonight. Someone brags about his trophies but in fact he has used fmrte. Another one brags about his trophies but in fact he has spend endless hours of reloading and tweaking to find a set of unbeatable tactics. Who has actually lied to us about their achievements? Carefull, it is not an easy answer.

[DivineOne]

You always seem to forget about most people, like me. That learn to make tactics, not by reloading, not by splitting saves.

But just by sometimes not living up to expectations and try again NEXT SEASON.

[tak]

I didn't forget people like you Divine. In fact I am saying somewhere above that people like you deserve to be called the real saints, who are abive this argument.

[tottenhamfmo7]

lol, ensar you're the one cheating!

[Nomis07]

lol, ensar you're the one cheating!

Guess who only read the OP.

[tottenhamfmo7]

Guess who only read the OP.

Can you explain what else has happened in the thread? please.

[Gilles Domoraud]

It does not need explaining to you surley Shirly.

[Nomis07]

Can you explain what else has happened in the thread? please.

Certainly. A few people called him a cheat, a few other people defended him, common sense prevailed and a somewhat sensible discussion was had, experiments were done, conslusions were made, you came in and decided to tell the OP he was cheating even though that had been discussed and everyone had moved on.

[dafuge]

Exactly. We know how football works in real life but in FM we have to adapt. Some people adapt during a save (reloading games for learning purposes) while others do not want to break the religious purity of their main save, so they develop parallel saves to learn and be prepared. Which of the two is cheating? Is there a chaplain or cardinal who can answer this for us? It is a very important question.

Let us go to the second important question for tonight. Someone brags about his trophies but in fact he has used fmrte. Another one brags about his trophies but in fact he has spend endless hours of reloading and tweaking to find a set of unbeatable tactics. Who has actually lied to us about their achievements? Carefull, it is not an easy answer.

I use the demo to design my tactic and often reload games several times when doing this to try specific things. I use the demo as a true 'test' of features and tactics and do things and manage teams I wouldn't usually. Once the main game is released though I start posting about my games so won't reload matches, even when tweaking tactics. Once I've started my proper game any tactical tweaking will be game to game, rather than the same game tests I may run with the demo.

[tak]

I use the demo to design my tactic and often reload games several times when doing this to try specific things. I use the demo as a true 'test' of features and tactics and do things and manage teams I wouldn't usually. Once the main game is released though I start posting about my games so won't reload matches, even when tweaking tactics. Once I've started my proper game any tactical tweaking will be game to game, rather than the same game tests I may run with the demo.

In this case my friend dafuge you are in no way different to someone who never plays the demo but does all the reloading you do beforehand, during his game. Both you and him use reloading extensively (it does not really matter at which point in time). I am glad we are getting somewhere here. I hope soon all this prejudice will seize to exist.

[Ceching You Out]

In this case my friend dafuge you are in no way different to someone who never plays the demo but does all the reloading you do beforehand, during his game. Both you and him use reloading extensively (it does not really matter at which point in time). I am glad we are getting somewhere here. I hope soon all this prejudice will seize to exist.

I can only assume you were stating your deepest desire that prejudice will seize our very existence. Preach on brother, we've let existence run free for far too long.

[fdawsoniv]

Jimbo,

In consecutive posts, you claimed a conservative mentality and a home tactic that is attacking, so now I'm confused.

I downloaded what was supposed to be a successful defensive tactic that was terrible for me and see nothing but Attack Attack tactics everywhere else. I know I should figure it out myself, but I'm way too new at this (both the video game and the real game) to try that yet. I do know that if I translate my favorite strategy from the sport I know best into soccer, then I would like to have a controlling, conservative tactic. My reading of the forums would indicate this doesn't work in game. Hence, my interest was piqued when you mentioned your approach.

I understand, though, how you said you didn't want to share. That's fine. You'd probably get frustrated trying to explain it to a numbskull like me, anyway.

[Neji]

In this case my friend dafuge you are in no way different to someone who never plays the demo but does all the reloading you do beforehand, during his game. Both you and him use reloading extensively (it does not really matter at which point in time). I am glad we are getting somewhere here. I hope soon all this prejudice will seize to exist.

Reloading to test a tactic and reloading because you lost are two different things.

If person A (tactic-creator) reloads constantly on their proper game, then sure that is cheating. However, if they reload in a test game, then how can it be cheating when creating a great tactic is the purpose of that game?

I have no problem with anyone who cheats, unless they come on here bragging about how good they are but have done it by cheating, or cheat in multi player games.

No matter what way you look at it, reloading because you lost is cheating, and again, I don't have a problem with anyone that does that.

[ahasver]

greetings to you all and please let me be proud of the fact that my first post on this forum is going to be something as trivial as a reference to a movie.

a movie a lot of people really enjoyed watching, and maybe even watched more than once.

all the ways we walk will take us somewehre in the end

and if you really try hard, it's "groundhog day"

[tak]

Reloading to test a tactic and reloading because you lost are two different things.

If person A (tactic-creator) reloads constantly on their proper game, then sure that is cheating. However, if they reload in a test game, then how can it be cheating when creating a great tactic is the purpose of that game?

I have no problem with anyone who cheats, unless they come on here bragging about how good they are but have done it by cheating, or cheat in multi player games.

No matter what way you look at it, reloading because you lost is cheating, and again, I don't have a problem with anyone that does that.

On the contrary my friend, the mere fact that someone has a "test" game and a "proper" game is cheating. I don't think the purpose of this game is to create a great tactic. I do not have any problem though, with anyone that is cheating with multiple save to achieve a great tactic. It is their choice.

In real life though you would not be able to start your career and live in two parallel universes, just to get hints about tactics. Nor you would be able to start in 2008, play until 2009 to perfect a tactic and then travel back in time to start again.

Unless you know something we don't...

[TheMister]

I downloaded what was supposed to be a successful defensive tactic that was terrible for me and see nothing but Attack Attack tactics everywhere else. I know I should figure it out myself, but I'm way too new at this (both the video game and the real game) to try that yet. I do know that if I translate my favorite strategy from the sport I know best into soccer, then I would like to have a controlling, conservative tactic. My reading of the forums would indicate this doesn't work in game.

You won't win any less league championships by playing with a measured approach, rather than attacking - you'll just win them with less goals scored.

You will however, be far more successful by playing with a measured approach in European competitions.

That's been my experience in FM.

The reason you'll see more attacking tactics on here is most people on here want to win the EPL or BBVA with over 100 goals scored - there is though, more to success than that.

[Neji]

In real life though you would not be able to start your career and live in two parallel universes, just to get hints about tactics. Nor you would be able to start in 2008, play until 2009 to perfect a tactic and then travel back in time to start again.

It's a fair point you raise. As the player of a game, you have to decide what is cheating and what isn't - or decide what level of cheating you're comfortable with.

[wwfan]

I am very happy with this. The author is certain he is not doing anything wrong. Why? Because he playes two games, one to learn the tactics and then another "pure" one. How is that different from starting one game and reloading whenever one wants, to realise what went wrong?

In this religious forums, the only one without a sin is someone who buys the game, opens it, installs it, starts a new game and plays until the next version is out, reaching the year of 2432.

EVERYONE else is gulity. Both our friend the OP and the tactical magicians you see in the relevant section. If I may say so, the tactical magicians are even worse that the OP because they do all their reloads while developing their theories, and then they play their pure and inoccent games, which they present to us as great conquers of the human mind against the machine.

Those games pretend to be pure, but they do come as a result of preparation filled with illegal reloads. They are, therefore, not pure at all, but carry dirt and hypocricy. When one uses information one obtained from playing a learning save first, he is cheating because he is not approaching his "proper" save in an honest way.

I prefer the honest players who reload games at will and edit Aguero into their Monaco team as soon as the game starts and two years later they modify a transfer of Thiery Henry and grab him as well (as I did). It is not "cheating". It is immitation of a real life situation that the game cannot reproduce. Aguero went to monaco very young to watch the Grand Prix and always wanted to stay there and Henry decided to end his career in his beloved team.

Why you have a bee in your bonnet about cheating totally eludes me. Barely anybody has mentioned it, certainly none of the more regular posters. It's been a kneejerk reaction from some 'let's read the first post and troll' posters, but it has not been a major theme in the slightest.

The only issue people are having is that the OP has obviously reloaded time and time again to get a 38 win season. When he finally plays a game he can't win through multiple reloads, he cries foul and claims the ME is broken. That is not a helpful position, as the test parameters are hugely flawed. Making the statement public in a forum filled with those who are passionate about the game is bound to bring a strong response, especially as the methods become clear. If you play like this and make big claims, you will be shot down.

Personally, I think the OP has been treated very respectfully throughout. In contrast, you are coming close to abusing, however midly, an awful lot of forum members. I'd be very careful how far you want to push this religious zealot theme, as it all seems to be coming from you.

[Svenc]

I wish that some of the effects of the slider settings would be confirmed. Officially. Now and forever. The manual doesn't suffice in any way.

[

Slider 3 is passing style and is basically the length of passing that you will ask your team to use most often. If you ask them to play a short passing game then it doesn't mean that they won;t ever make long passes. It just means that your preferred passes will be short, (so you should expect them to play short passes most of the time.

That's not my understanding of the passing slider at all - rather, it's that the further your crank it to the right, the further down the pitch a player may "look" to determine where to move his pass. So that, if cranked to the right it doesn't necessarily mean that he'll prefer long balls. It just means that long balls start becoming a serious option, depending on mentality, decisions, creative freedom , etc. Case in point a Barcelona vs some random lower league team save I made: You can move the passing slider of the centre backs and full backs all the way to like 19, and still rarely see them playing long balls - at all.

Slider 4 is tempo which basically means the speed with which the ball is passed. W

In your tactic, you had both the passing style and the tempo sliders up past half-way. I have deleted the save no so I don't have it to view, but off the top of my head your passing style was about 60% and the passing tempo was about 70%. SO that means that you were asking them to play longer than average balls at quite a quick tempo. Now to me as someone that plays football it seems to make sense that if you want to play a high tempo game then it will work better with a shorter distance of passing. You are asking you players to make harder passes, so give them just a litte more time on the ball. If you ae adamant that you want them to play at a high tempo, (and you might be), then think about reducing the distance over which you are asking your players to pass the ball over. To give you an idea, the most effective way to make use of a 100% tempo slider is to accompany it with a 0% passing style slider. So really fast goes well with really short.

I think you're contradicting the game's manual here, which basically says that it'd be entirelly possible to play a quick short-passing game, but if you'd increase the speed of something, mistakes are more likely to happen. In general, for a sufficient forward-moving short passing game that isn't just meant to keep the ball to hold on a narrow 1-0 lead, you'd need players that can comfortably keep and outplay the opposition with their passing skills. The higher the speed, the higher the chance of a pass gone wrong, and your attacks coming to a screaching halt long before you even get the ball to the outskirts of the opponent's box. Therefore, for a fast tempo short passing game in particular to be any kind of sufficient, you'd need reasonably good players upfront.

That doesn't mean that high tempo and short passing would contradict each other - I'm sure there's plenty teams in the game that can pull this off. And obviously playing a quicker direct game isn't meant to keep possession, likely to be employed by a team sitting back and trying to hit the opposition off-guard. Quick tempo in general means more risk of losing the ball, that's it in a nutshell. Employing a quicker tempo isn't something that's this linked to passing style, you could argue it's more of a mentality thing: Asking your team to play a quicker game is a means for attack - asking your team to play a slower style is a means of defense, more precisely to keep possession whilst losing out on attacking force. A quick short passing game can outplay opposition if you've got the players, long balls played at fast speed can catch the opponent out of position. A slow short passing game is likely to grant you plenty of possession if your players are any half-way decent with the ball, and a slow tempo direct game means you're less likely be able to catch the opponent out of position in favor of playing less hurried Hollywood balls, thus balancing the more riskier direct play and possession. Plus it could well be I'm totally wrong on this, really.

Still I'm praying for an official word on this - there must be a reason why even web guides are contradicting themselves on so many things it's not even funny. Anyway, sorry for the OT post.

[Jimbokav1971]

Svenc

I'm no expert, but I have dug out the FM2009 guide just to try and clarify this.

Passing style.

Passing style is fairly simple - this dictates the range of passing that your team will adopt. The slider ranges from Short to Long and the notches in between will gradually ask your team to ask your team to play a more expansive passing game. When deciding on the style of passing you want your team to use, you'll need to consider how everything else will affect it, both in terms of tactics and personnel. Have your players got the required attributes to keep the ball confortably over short distances? Does your passing style suit the tempo and mentality of your team? If you are looking to play a direct game with an attacking mentality, your players may be launching longer passes from position from positionos further up the pitch, which may prove wasteful.

Now considering that I was initially talking about the OP's tactics where he had quite an attacking mentality, lots of creative freedom, was playing a direct style, and was also asking for quite a high temp, let's see what we can gleam from that little paragraph.

1. Passing style is fairly simple - this dictates the range of passing that your team will adopt. The slider ranges from Short to Long and the notches in between will gradually ask your team to ask your team to play a more expansive passing game.

Come on guys. That is really it in a nutshell. Surely there can be no confusion here.

2. When deciding on the style of passing you want your team to use, you'll need to consider how everything else will affect it, both in terms of tactics and personnel.

Well I think that was the gist of just about every individual point that I was trying to make. My issue with the original tactics is that they were contradictary and one part of tactic would lessen the positive influence of another aspect of the tactic.

3. Does your passing style suit the tempo and mentality of your team?If you are looking to play a direct game with an attacking mentality, your players may be launching longer passes from position from positionos further up the pitch, which may prove wasteful.

Would you believe they actualy list the very instance that you are querying? Can this be any clearer? The OP is trying to play as high a defensive line as is physically possible, which limits the effectiveness of a direct style of play. He is also playing quite an attacking mentality, which also limits the effectiveness of a direct style of play. He is also playing a high temp style, which also limits the effectiveness of a direct style of play.

In a nutshell, he was contradicting himself at every turn. I know fine well that he is not alone in this and I am also aware that tactics ae not as easy in FM09 as they wer with the CM's of a few years ago. It really isn't brain surgery though. I'm not a frequenter of the T&TGF but I promise you, you really do not need to be. SI have tried to engineer the ME so that it immitates, (as best they can), real life football. So my advice, when thinking of tactics, is to try and think of what would work in real life. Look, SI aren't perfect game-making Gods, (although some would disagree), but you have to remember that what they are trying to replicate here is a real life game played with a leather/plastic ball and on a green(ish) pitch were blokes/girls run about and try and score goals against eachother. If you go back to basics and you think in terms of real life tactics, then although there are no guarantees, I would suggest that you might see an improvement.

I have a slightly different outlook with regards to tactics than many I think.

Let me explain.

If we take the passing mentality of DC's as an example, most succesful tactics, (I think) will have the passing mentality set at quite high. I completely understand the reason for this. The DC's are probably the poorest passers and poorest technical ability players in your team, so rather than have them fanny about with the ball at the back you would ask them to HOOF the bal up the pitch and get rid of it, (if HOOF is 100% then maybe 50% might be giving it a firm old dig up t half-way). SO anyway, you get my points and I'm sure many would agree.

I on the other hand, (while I don't disagree completely), have another style of play in mind. Well think about it. The DC's are the poorest passers of the ball on the pitch. SO with tha in mind, why are you asking them to hit long passes, (the hardest pass in the game), which they will have the lowest % chance of completing succesfully? Why are you not making an allowance for their useless ability in passing the ball and giving them the ption of the easiest pass available, (the short pass), which they will have the highest % chance of cmpleting succesfully.

Now I am not saying that 1 tactic is right and 1 tactic is wrong. They are just different.

You also suggested that my understanding of the "Tempo" slider was wrong.

Tempo.

tempo dictstes the speed and urgency your teams play with The slider ranges from Slow to Quick and the further right you move the bar, your team will play a more up-tempo game and look to make things happen quickly and sharply. The tempo employed by your team can affect the success of your passing - it is enturely possible to play a quick, short passing game but when you increase the speed of something mistakes can become more likely.

Surely there can be no misunderstanding.:confused:

[Jimbokav1971]

Jimbo,

In consecutive posts, you claimed a conservative mentality and a home tactic that is attacking, so now I'm confused.

I downloaded what was supposed to be a successful defensive tactic that was terrible for me and see nothing but Attack Attack tactics everywhere else. I know I should figure it out myself, but I'm way too new at this (both the video game and the real game) to try that yet. I do know that if I translate my favorite strategy from the sport I know best into soccer, then I would like to have a controlling, conservative tactic. My reading of the forums would indicate this doesn't work in game. Hence, my interest was piqued when you mentioned your approach.

I understand, though, how you said you didn't want to share. That's fine. You'd probably get frustrated trying to explain it to a numbskull like me, anyway.

fdawsoniv

Would you mind quoting the bits of my posts that seem to contradict eachother, (because someone else has said that and I can't see it). I will then try to explain in more detail what I mean so that it is clear.

I don't have a problem explaining myself. I just have no desire to upload a tactic that I have worked long and hard over so that someone can simply copy it.

[tak]

Why you have a bee in your bonnet about cheating totally eludes me. Barely anybody has mentioned it, certainly none of the more regular posters. It's been a kneejerk reaction from some 'let's read the first post and troll' posters, but it has not been a major theme in the slightest.

The only issue people are having is that the OP has obviously reloaded time and time again to get a 38 win season. When he finally plays a game he can't win through multiple reloads, he cries foul and claims the ME is broken. That is not a helpful position, as the test parameters are hugely flawed. Making the statement public in a forum filled with those who are passionate about the game is bound to bring a strong response, especially as the methods become clear. If you play like this and make big claims, you will be shot down.

Personally, I think the OP has been treated very respectfully throughout. In contrast, you are coming close to abusing, however midly, an awful lot of forum members. I'd be very careful how far you want to push this religious zealot theme, as it all seems to be coming from you.

For centuries the word reload was enough to raise condemnt and excommunication. When I showed clearly than reloading is no different than playing "test" saves, I was threatened to "be very careful". Should I be careful? No, I should be very careful.

Neji said that the player himself decides what is cheating and what not. That is a beautiful way to put it and is indeed the only way forward.

Let us reflect on that a bit. I already talked about playing in parallel universes or going back in summer 2008 and starting again. These practices are the same as reloading, so they are all legal or all cheating.

But I want to ask something that I asked before. Let us imagine two players playing a very small club of an obscure division, taking all the way to the european championship. One of those players achieves that by testing (meaning reloading). The other achieves it by creating an alternative virtual world through the fmrte. Whose achievement is more significant?

[TheMister]

But I want to ask something that I asked before. Let us imagine two players playing a very small club of an obscure division, taking all the way to the european championship. One of those players achieves that by testing (meaning reloading). The other achieves it by creating an alternative virtual world through the fmrte. Whose achievement is more significant?

For most people, including myself, there is a huge difference between reloading 1-5 different types of matches before a save is played, to look at tactics, and someone reloading matches throughout a save until a win is achieved in each/or the desired ones.

It's quite simple, or maybe I'm too elemental.

[chopper99]

For centuries the word reload was enough to raise condemnt and excommunication. When I showed clearly than reloading is no different than playing "test" saves, I was threatened to "be very careful". Should I be careful? No, I should be very careful.

You really are a bit of a weirdo aren't you?

[Jimbokav1971]

Originally Posted by tak

But I want to ask something that I asked before. Let us imagine two players playing a very small club of an obscure division, taking all the way to the european championship. One of those players achieves that by testing (meaning reloading). The other achieves it by creating an alternative virtual world through the fmrte. Whose achievement is more significant?

tak

Why are you using only those comparisons?:confused:

I prefer this comparison.

Let us imagine three players playing a very small club of an obscure division, taking all the way to the european championship. One of those players achieves that by testing (meaning reloading). The second achieves it by creating an alternative virtual world through the fmrte. The 3rd just plays the game as is. He doesn't EVER reload a game, he doesn't use the editor or an editing tool, he also doesn't use a scouting tool. Neither does he visit the T&TGF and he also refuses to download pre-prepared tactics and training schedules. Whose achievement is more significant?Now I would qualify that statement by saying that this game isn;t about "significance", it is purely about "enjoyment", and as far as I'm concerned everyone is free to play the game in any way they see fit, (including use of editors, scouting tools or whatever they want). I really couldn't give a monkeys.

My point is, if you are going to change the balance of the game through the editor, or use a scouting toool so that you can see who you should sign and who you shouldn't sign, or simply reload and reload and reload, (whether that be in the demo or any game at any time), then to my mind it you are altering the balance of the game. There is the FOW feature in the game. It is there for a reason. The scouts are there for a reason too. If the game was designed so that you could automatically know how good a player will become, then that feature would already be in the game.

Is it cheating? Who cares because we are not competing against eachother, We are competing against the game. The only time when this is not the case is where an online or hotseat game are involved.

It's not the way that I like to play, (but I am all too aware that it is something that I did do in my younger days when I first started to play CM/FM). Rather than call it cheating now, I would prefer to say that the reason I stopped doing this was that I FELT THAT I WAS CHEATING. It wasn't for me so I simply don't do it anymore.

I wish everyone would stop trying to tell everyone else how to play their game. The reality is that as a general rule of thumb, players of CM/FM will get far more enjoyment from a game in which they have not "cheated/or whatever you want to call it".

My only issue is when players are not open and honest about what they have done and demand to be treated as if their achievements are as "significant" as others who are playing with far harsher restrictions. This might just be the "corner exploit" but also might include use of "feeder clubs", or some of the other "techniques" that i have mentioned above.

It's just a glorified version of "my daddy is bigger than your daddy".

I think I was partially responsible for this in this thread, because I ridiculed the OP for playing as 4 different managers, (at least), within 1 save so that he could transfer players easily between clubs for cheap/expensive transfer deals as aoppropriate, yet he was the one who indignantly felt that the AI was cheating him!

I don't have an issue with anything that he has done, (although it's certanly not for me), but I do have an issue that he is using his position as a human manager to influence the game in a way that the AI cannot do, Then he has the cheek to come on here and complain that the AI is doing the same, (even though I think everyone but the most blinkered of blinkered readers will agree that I have proved that this is not the case).

At least the OP has had the honesty to admit what he has done, and as a result of him I have been happy to try and exlain the basics of how some of the tactical instructions work. had he not been open and honest I would have just not bothered to respond to his questions.

The only person now being ridiculed in this thread now is YOU, for your constant antagonistic responses to anything that is offered as a potential solution to the OP's problems.

[Elrithral]

But I want to ask something that I asked before. Let us imagine two players playing a very small club of an obscure division, taking all the way to the european championship. One of those players achieves that by testing (meaning reloading). The other achieves it by creating an alternative virtual world through the fmrte. Whose achievement is more significant?

Neither.

Seems you're the only one putting such emphasis on what constitutes cheating and what doesn't. I dare say the majority would agree that that neither achievement is more significant because very few people care about other peoples games.

You win the CL how you like, hoop de doo for you, I don't care and never will. If you use FMRTE, so be it, if you reload, knock yourself out. I'll continue to play my game the way I play it and sleep well at night. However, I think it's very telling that you have such a bee in your bonnet about cheating and all the possibilities, it seems your the one who holds a grudge while the majority ignore the trivial.

[TheMister]

Jimbo, you're either very determined or just plain stubborn LOL. I don't know where you're getting the willpower from to keep going.

[wwfan]

The issue has never been about how the OP plays the game. It's about the claims he makes after playing that way. Because he reloads until he wins, he has absolutely no concept of what makes a good and solid tactical approach (as beautifully described above) and thus cannot make claims of a cheating AI. If you play that way and make such grandiose claims, be prepared to be shot down in flames. What defines cheating has nothing to do with it.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Be prepared to be shot down in flames? Does that include being called a weirdo? Are you as a mod saying that is acceptable?

[chopper99]

Be prepared to be shot down in flames? Does that include being called a weirdo? Are you as a mod saying that is acceptable?

This coming from the guy who took offence at someone using the word 'nutter' in another thread. Grow up eh, and stop acting like a spoilt child simply because i disagreed with you in another thread.

And this from someone who criticised another user for being too liberal and then sent me a PM saying he always calls a spade a spade. Hypocritical much?

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Lol so you think nutter is acceptable too?

I am not acting like the child here, think you need to look in the mirror for that one, I would prefer it if no comments such as weirdo or nutter came up at all. I made a mistake in calling you a name and I have learned from that and won't do it again. I hope you will do the same.

[chopper99]

I'd rather not drag this into a debate about the forums, but if you're so hypersensitive that you don't want to hear words like nutter and weirdo being used light heartedly then you should probably lock yourself in the house for the forseeable future.

[wwfan]

Let's cut out any personal sniping, please.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

light heartedly? Sorry I must have missed your wink after you said it.....

I think words like this have no place on forums at all and are only there to antagonise. The word nutter, when used, clearly wasn't in a light hearted context. You seem quite intelligent, I thought you would have noticed that. I wasn't the only one that took offence to it either....

Edit: Written before I saw your post above...

[Elrithral]

De ja vu ?

[ensar13]

Sorry wwfan, but why are you attacking me now? Shot down in flames?

Are you a director here?

I came here to ask if this is ok, when I play Milan, my oponent is Inter, the chance are 50-50, I change 5 tactics, I reload the game 35 times, I can't get a single win? And some users here get me a good answer, defuge took it self to test it, and what are you doing: came here to attack me that I am a bad player, that I have no concept how to play FM, and to don't claim about the game

Sorry that I made a claim, that I wanted a answer on this, no problem. I will not more disturb for FM 10, so that you can do your job

[wwfan]

I'm just arguing that you cannot make a claim of 'AI cheating' if you reload all your games as you cannot possibly have worked out any tactical logic. I don't need to prove the match is winnable as others have already done so. All I'm doing is highlighting the danger of making extravagant claims about the ME and AI if you follow a reloading playing method all the time, because you will never have learnt how to play within the game parameters.

There is nothing personal in my statement at all. You can play FM any way you please as long as you have fun. However, I take issue with claims that the game is fixed from someone following that playing method. Such claims, if taken seriously, can negatively influence perceptions of FM, which is hardly the purpose of these forums.

[Svenc]

Svenc

I'm no expert, but I have dug out the FM2009 guide just to try and clarify this.

1. Passing style is fairly simple - this dictates the range of passing that your team will adopt. The slider ranges from Short to Long and the notches in between will gradually ask your team to ask your team to play a more expansive passing game.

Come on guys. That is really it in a nutshell. Surely there can be no confusion here.

Disagreed. It still doesn't explain how it really works, see my Barcelona save I made for testing a couple of things, where it seems that the slider acts as a gradual means of expanding a player's passing range, yes, but what it doesn't do is telling him to PREFER the kind of passing in any kind of way. This appears to be linked to the likes of tempo, mentality, creative freedom and the likes, and it should be told you so.

You also suggested that my understanding of the "Tempo" slider was wrong.[/i]

Absolutely, yes. Not your understanding of it, rather than the implications: You're trying to say that at least in theory keeping the passing slider to the far left whilst putting tempo to the far right would be the most effective thing to do. Playing a high-tempo short passing game is perhaps the most difficult thing to pull off in the entire game, as the manual would suggest. And as real-life football would suggest. With a high tempo short passing game you're asking your players to make many quick decisions at every turn during their moves to approach the opponent's goal, as you are asking them to utilize their technical prowess with the ball many a time before the ball even has a chance of showing up in front of the opponent's goal. It's the very opposite thing of just hoofing the ball up the pitch right to your strikers waiting in line.

You suggest tempo is more linked to passing style, whilst I suggest it has more got to do with your basic mentality and in this case players available - it is super fine to play a short slow-passing game for instance, as it is to play a high-tempo direct game: it just depends what you're actually trying to do. Playing for possession or playing for opening up space in the final third to get some (more) goals. A super high tempo, short passing game looks like a good thing to ask for trouble in case you're not being Barcelona. Or the likes of Spain at EURO 2008.

wwfan suggests slow passing is a means to play more defensive in his guide as is himself, whilst quick passing would be probably better suited for attacking teams. What high tempo would do then, is to lessen the chance of passing errors - as said, a side sitting back in its own half, and playing a more direct style of football would likely to do at a higher pace to have a bigger chance of catching the opponent off-guard. Sure, it's asking to give away lots of possession, and without doubt you have to adjust this based on the players available. But I fail to see how then on the opposing scale of this super fast, short passing ideal (0% here and 100% on this slider) a super slow tempo direct game would be the ideal thing for a direct game full stop. Doesn't mean there's no means to utilize such, just saying.

As for the op's save, yes, pushing all up and trying to play longer balls is obviously kind of contradicting. As for high tempo being a contradiction to direct play in general, I dunno. As you so beautifully put it, it probably more boils down to the likes of this:

Now I am not saying that 1 tactic is right and 1 tactic is wrong. They are just different.

[Elrithral]

The problem with any kind of experiment/complaint about the randomness of matches, is that it's almost impossible to prove. No matter how many steps you take to try and make it work, there will always be another random factor that contradicts it and influences it. Weather, injuries, morale, confidence, condition, opposition tactical chanegs, refereeing decisions etc etc.

You could start the game with a DC who has perfect confidence and morale, he plays a blinder. Start the game again and he makes a silly mistake in the first minute, for the remaining 89 minutes he is a totally different player to the one who played the first match, because his confidence has decreased.

Such experiments/complaints are always questionable tbh.

[TheMister]

Such claims, if taken seriously, can negatively influence perceptions of FM, which is hardly the purpose of these forums.

{gets on high horse}To play devils advocate for a moment, and while I understand and agree with your underlying point, if negative perceptions are accurate then they it should be the purpose of the forum to talk about them - not just keep quiet because these boards are for massaging Sis ego. {/steps down from high horse}

[chopper99]

{gets on high horse}To play devils advocate for a moment, and while I understand and agree with your underlying point, if negative perceptions are accurate then they it should be the purpose of the forum to talk about them - not just keep quiet because these boards are for massaging Sis ego. {/steps down from high horse}

But the really big point here is if they are accurate. In this, and pretty much every other AI cheats thread, they are not.

[TheMister]

But the really big point here is if they are accurate. In this, and pretty much every other AI cheats thread, they are not.

I agree Chopper. NOBODY will ever convince me (like you and others as well) that an AI 'cheats' - the idea is laughable and I can't believe a thread where that is suggested receives so many views and posts (yes I know I'm perpetuating it by posting myself! LOL).

I just didn't like the implication that we're not allowed to 'dis' SI here, even IF the points are accurate/legitimate.

[chopper99]

I agree Chopper. NOBODY will ever convince me (like you and others as well) that an AI 'cheats' - the idea is laughable and I can't believe a thread where that is suggested receives so many views and posts (yes I know I'm perpetuating it by posting myself! LOL).

I just didn't like the implication that we're not allowed to 'dis' SI here, even IF the points are accurate/legitimate.

Luckily SI will take constructive criticism on board, which is what makes these forums so good. People with valid criticisms and suggestions for improving the game will find that they get a good response. Although there will always be a minority that blindly defends the game, but they're are becoming less and less.

If someone can do a proper experiment and prove that the AI cheats I'll be all ears, but this has never happened and I doubt it will because the AI simply doesn't cheat.

[wwfan]

{gets on high horse}To play devils advocate for a moment, and while I understand and agree with your underlying point, if negative perceptions are accurate then they it should be the purpose of the forum to talk about them - not just keep quiet because these boards are for massaging Sis ego. {/steps down from high horse}

I'm all for any constructive criticism of the game as it furthers its development. However, the logic and method of this critique is not worth taking seriously. Show me an ME bug and I'll make sure the right people see it. Use a flawed method to 'prove' the game 'cheats' and I'll defend the game to the hilt.

Replaying the same game 30 times without winning only proves the user concerned doesn't know how to deal with a certain situation. That's all. Any other claims are pure hyperbole and should be taken as such.

[Svenc]

Replaying the same game 30 times without winning only proves the user concerned doesn't know how to deal with a certain situation. That's all. Any other claims are pure hyperbole and should be taken as such.

I think what people are up against is the implication that issues like these always must be the player's fault - and as such shouldn't even pop up here.

[chopper99]

I think what people are up against is the implication that issues like these always must be the player's fault - and as such shouldn't even pop up here.

I don't think anyone's saying that. As I said, if someone comes along with a proper experiment showing that the AI cheats then I'll be all ears. As of yet this has never happened. Every thread of this kind is usually started as a rant and is rarely constructive.

[Svenc]

I don't think anyone's saying that. As I said, if someone comes along with a proper experiment showing that the AI cheats then I'll be all ears. As of yet this has never happened. Every thread of this kind id usually started as a rant and is rarely constructive.

Well, that's another thing. Doesn't help that it takes days for anyone to load up a proper save, too, if ever. FM's a massively popular game, I think rants are just to be expected, be they justified or no. Sure, every once in a while people will make themselves look like three-headed monkeys, but it's not as if such rants would have an impact on FM's popularity or perception - and even then, I don't know why that should be a SERIOUS area of concern for anyone on these boards when considering to adress posts like that. There's obviously a lot of myths all over the place, but then FM's really being played by a load of people.

[wwfan]

I think what people are up against is the implication that issues like these always must be the player's fault - and as such shouldn't even pop up here.

There's no issue about finding the game hard, frustrating or buggy in places. All such complaints will receive a lot of help. However, any complaints that are based on flawed premises need to be broken down and disproved. As Chopper said, it might be that one of these complaints eventually has some merit, but we cannot know that unless we fully understand the method and results first. If the discussion illustrates that the actual playing/tactical method is pretty horrible and reloading common, it needs to be made explicit as it invalidates the claim.

I'm not saying don't make claims, but if you do, be sure you are playing within standard parameters, otherwise your conclusion is next to worthless.