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Developing my First Tactic- An Identity Crisis, a 4-1-4-1 and my process to create a successful tactic for the first time

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Posted (edited)

Pure quality. Amazing post. 

Edited by Gegenklaus

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Welcome to the forum, a great first post. Also great to see someone take elements from all the threads that myself and others use and adapt them into their own ideas and saves. It's rare that we see posts like this.

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3 hours ago, Y2Jones said:

Inspired by articles and threads, and really wanting to improve my understanding and skill at the game, I made the decision to stick to only making my own tactics and if they fail, they fail.

Probably the best thing I've read in a long time.

Great first post :thup:.

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We need more topics like these. Great read and very informative.

Would also love to see a post about the things that went wrong, how you spotted it and how you fixed it.

 

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This has to be the best post I’ve read for a long time. What I like is how you new how you wanted to play, stripped it back and started again. You took the time to read some very good posts to help implement your ideas instead of being on here asking questions. In my opinion,you’ve done what I think everyone should do who’s quite new to the game and that’s watch matches to see where issues lay. You made in game changes to your tactic which shows that you can’t just plug and play a tactic anymore. By detailing your dilemmas etc.. I really hope that a lot of people read your post and take everything onboard what you’ve done, I’m a believer that the only way you’re going to learn is to work it out and resolve issues yourself, that’s what you’ve done and I admire that.

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Great post, logic and results!

IMO nothing beats the versatility of the 4-1-4-1. Looking forward to your future post on the players you brought in to build your squad.

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21 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Nice opening thread for someone's first post. Welcome to the forums.

Thanks very much! I'm glad I finally got involved in the community after all these years!

21 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Pure quality. Amazing post. 

Big thank you brother!

21 hours ago, Cleon said:

Welcome to the forum, a great first post. Also great to see someone take elements from all the threads that myself and others use and adapt them into their own ideas and saves. It's rare that we see posts like this.

Thank you for the welcome and response to the post. I also appreciated the tweet you sent with my post linked, really inspired me to continue to write more in the future! It felt logical to take elements from different sources and I'm glad I was able to articulate that well. Thanks again! 

21 hours ago, ianscousemac said:

Very good post.  I'll certainly take some of that onboard.

Thank you very much my friend! I'm happy to hear that.

18 hours ago, herne79 said:

Probably the best thing I've read in a long time.

Great first post :thup:.

Thanks a lot man, really appreciate it! I'm glad I was able to receive such good feedback after just one post. Happy to see you enjoyed and can't wait to continue posting!

18 hours ago, Miek said:

We need more topics like these. Great read and very informative.

Would also love to see a post about the things that went wrong, how you spotted it and how you fixed it.

 

Cheers man, glad you enjoyed. That's definitely something I thought about including originally and I would be more than happy to write up about those things that went wrong and my solutions. Thanks again!

17 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Welcome to the forum.

Happy to finally get involved in the community!

7 hours ago, luton said:

This has to be the best post I’ve read for a long time. What I like is how you new how you wanted to play, stripped it back and started again. You took the time to read some very good posts to help implement your ideas instead of being on here asking questions. In my opinion,you’ve done what I think everyone should do who’s quite new to the game and that’s watch matches to see where issues lay. You made in game changes to your tactic which shows that you can’t just plug and play a tactic anymore. By detailing your dilemmas etc.. I really hope that a lot of people read your post and take everything onboard what you’ve done, I’m a believer that the only way you’re going to learn is to work it out and resolve issues yourself, that’s what you’ve done and I admire that.

Thank you for your excellent feedback, it really does mean a lot and inspires me to continue! That was one of my main intentions with this post, documenting how I managed to finally find accomplishment, in the hope that other people who might be in similar situations could take onboard things that might work for them. Thank you once again! 

3 hours ago, nugatti said:

Great post, logic and results!

IMO nothing beats the versatility of the 4-1-4-1. Looking forward to your future post on the players you brought in to build your squad.

Thanks man! I definitely agree, the formation allows so much versatility and dynamics in how a side can play, and can easily be played many different ways, even within the same match. I'm happy you enjoyed and that you are looking forward to future posts!

 

 

Hugely inspired from the great feedback I've received so far, it's been really surprising for me to see such great comments! I can't wait to continue posting and becoming more engaged with the community and continue to learn and improve, both in regards to the game and crafting threads and posts. 

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First of all: Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's a good example how a user can "learn" the tactical side of FM. 

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Amazing and great work. 

From my understanding, using Much Higher Line of Engagement with Higher Defensive Line will nullify the compact shape to effectively close down quickly. Just my thoughts. 

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On 12/03/2019 at 18:31, Y2Jones said:

know it's a long one and I may of bored a lot

Not at all. Excellent post

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Welcome to the (active) community!

I was kinda like you back in the day, never wanting to post and just reading, but once I did it I enjoyed it a lot so I think you definitely did the best you could. Be sure you'll have tons of fun engaging in conversation with the gents around here and it will allow you also to learn much more.

One thing you constantly repeat through your text explaining your approach is that you still feel that this tactic is not yours, that it is just a combination of other tactics, etc etc... Don't sell yourself so low man! How many real life managers build stuff off their brains without taking ideas from here and there, let alone FM players?

You definitely spent the proper time learning the game as real managers spent it learning the history of football and where this and that system work and don't, then applied what you considered right for your team and players. Don't think it can get any better, and the way you put it all together in the post, along with the use of images was superb, believe me.

No wonder you inspired me getting back to the game after a few months of hiatus. Hope to keep reading you around!

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22 hours ago, Y2Jones said:

Hugely inspired from the great feedback I've received so far, it's been really surprising for me to see such great comments! I can't wait to continue posting and becoming more engaged with the community and continue to learn and improve, both in regards to the game and crafting threads and posts. 

Looking forward to it :thup:.

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@Y2Jones a wonderful collection of useful information and a truly inspiring approach to the game, especially that you managed to make it about the players, which is something that I seem to completely avoid - I guess for the reason of not wanting to depend on them, but it definitely made me think about the issues my approach.

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On 14/03/2019 at 04:26, jyn1989 said:

Amazing and great work. 

From my understanding, using Much Higher Line of Engagement with Higher Defensive Line will nullify the compact shape to effectively close down quickly. Just my thoughts. 

He also writes that he changes around the line of engagement :)

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@Y2Jones Do you change the system if Bongiovanni is unavailable? If so, then how?

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5 hours ago, Luizinho said:

@Y2Jones Do you change the system if Bongiovanni is unavailable? If so, then how?

Currently crafting a post about my squad and how it informed my tactic, and this is apart of that. Short answer yes, but it would depend on who we were up against and who we had available to play. I’ll go into much more detail when it comes to my next post which will cover it!

On 14/03/2019 at 21:30, robot_skeleton said:

@Y2Jones a wonderful collection of useful information and a truly inspiring approach to the game, especially that you managed to make it about the players, which is something that I seem to completely avoid - I guess for the reason of not wanting to depend on them, but it definitely made me think about the issues my approach.

Thank you very much!👍🏻

On 14/03/2019 at 10:21, okereke said:

Welcome to the (active) community!

I was kinda like you back in the day, never wanting to post and just reading, but once I did it I enjoyed it a lot so I think you definitely did the best you could. Be sure you'll have tons of fun engaging in conversation with the gents around here and it will allow you also to learn much more.

One thing you constantly repeat through your text explaining your approach is that you still feel that this tactic is not yours, that it is just a combination of other tactics, etc etc... Don't sell yourself so low man! How many real life managers build stuff off their brains without taking ideas from here and there, let alone FM players?

You definitely spent the proper time learning the game as real managers spent it learning the history of football and where this and that system work and don't, then applied what you considered right for your team and players. Don't think it can get any better, and the way you put it all together in the post, along with the use of images was superb, believe me.

No wonder you inspired me getting back to the game after a few months of hiatus. Hope to keep reading you around!

Wow, thank you man! I’m glad I was able to do that.

 

On 13/03/2019 at 20:35, 53bast1an said:

First of all: Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's a good example how a user can "learn" the tactical side of FM. 

Thank you man!

On 14/03/2019 at 03:26, jyn1989 said:

Amazing and great work. 

From my understanding, using Much Higher Line of Engagement with Higher Defensive Line will nullify the compact shape to effectively close down quickly. Just my thoughts. 

Thanks brother! Our press usually becomes situational depending on in game circumstances, but always begins high. I can definitely see a big risk in maintaining those TIs for 90 minutes.

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 When I read the OP's post I was actually very happy, cos he is one of the few people I have heard off on the forum who treats pressing situationally. I believe that the secret to this game actually lies in how you manage your own defensive shape while retaining your attacking flair. There's something I want to add, people have asked me frequently about the need to sit back and defend deep. To be fair, the only real thing you should be worried about is whether your defenders are capable of sitting back. That does require them to be good at winning those balls dangerously close to goal. They have to deal with every cross. So when I am an underdog, I hate sit back soak strategies. I prefer taking the game to them, trying to dominate the game and keeping it away from them, and being high enough on the pitch so that when the opposition lose the ball in transition we are actually in a position to attack them.

Now just looking at your system, what you can do is spend some time thinking about how Team Mentality affects the 6 factors in the game.  Evaluate your players and your own weak spots. Then go look at your defensive line/LOE split.  Then think of how you can manage games effectively by using all the tools at your disposal. There is a lot possible in the game.

For one thing, prevent short gk distribution, have you seen which players in your team get affected by it? Do you really need it?  Play close attention to when the opposition keeper tries to play the ball from a goal kick, and you will hopefully see what I mean.

 

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On 12/03/2019 at 18:31, Y2Jones said:

I made the decision to stick to only making my own tactics and if they fail, they fail.

Farewell Plug and Play!

@Y2Jones this is such an admirable approach, one I've tried to apply myself recently. Applying aspects of others approaches is also something I've done for years, there's nothing wrong with taking ideas from those much more tactically aware than ourselves.

As Bruce Lee said, 'adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own'

Once again, great post, enjoyable read, and looking forward to future updates :applause:

 

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Posted (edited)

What if like me, you are hopeless tactically?

I'll admit, despite being a football fan all my life, I have only ever watched it for entertainment purposes. So I'm absolutely useless with tactics, I find it hard to spot things. Is there hope that I can learn as I go? This thread gives me hope! :D

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

When I read the OP's post I was actually very happy, cos he is one of the few people I have heard off on the forum who treats pressing situationally. I believe that the secret to this game actually lies in how you manage your own defensive shape while retaining your attacking flair.

I've thought this for a long while, always made sense to me in real football but was always difficult to implement in previous FM's. I think the new line of engagement has really allowed situational pressing to be accomplished and I'm glad I was able to use it effectively. Also glad to make you very happy haha!:lol: 

Also thank you for the advice, definitely now understand what you are telling me. 

12 minutes ago, TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos said:

Farewell Plug and Play!

@Y2Jones this is such an admirable approach, one I've tried to apply myself recently. Applying aspects of others approaches is also something I've done for years, there's nothing wrong with taking ideas from those much more tactically aware than ourselves.

As Bruce Lee said, 'adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own'

Once again, great post, enjoyable read, and looking forward to future updates :applause:

 

Great quote! Thank you man, can't wait to continue.

9 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

What if like me, you are hopeless tactically?

I'll admit, despite being a football fan all my life, I have only ever watched it for entertainment purposes. So I'm absolutely useless with tactics, I find it hard to spot things. Is there hope that I can learn as I go? This thread gives me hope! :D

That's amazing to hear:D, thank you very much my friend.

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5 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

So what I'm asking is, is it possible to learn as you go? Can you teach yourself how to start identifying problems without being tactically astute? @Cleon @Rashidi @Y2Jones

Yes the creating a tactic series I've been doing is exactly about this topic

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5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Yes the creating a tactic series I've been doing is exactly about this topic

Thanks.

I've only skimmed over it so far. I will read it in depth later tonight :thup:

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7 hours ago, Cleon said:

Yes the creating a tactic series I've been doing is exactly about this topic

That is a very interesting question. I actually had time to help someone who had never played a football game and never watched a football game understand this game using chess. 

You don’t need to be tactically astute, you just need to understand that ultimately it’s how one formation controls space. Then it’s only a question about how well you control it and what you do about the spaces you don’t control.

Over the course of many years this forum has become a treasure trove of information. There are plenty of well written guides. It’s usually the same stuff, rehashed. I wrote a KISS guide a few years back, it’s still relevant. Having a bench strategy is also good. You don’t need to be tactically astute. In fact some people who are usually end up struggling cos they want to translate the depth of their knowledge without understanding the game itself.

 

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5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

In fact some people who are usually end up struggling cos they want to translate the depth of their knowledge without understanding the game itself.

This is so like myself... :lol: Approaching it like real life instead of a video game. 

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17 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

What if like me, you are hopeless tactically?

I'll admit, despite being a football fan all my life, I have only ever watched it for entertainment purposes. So I'm absolutely useless with tactics, I find it hard to spot things. Is there hope that I can learn as I go? This thread gives me hope! :D

What helped me a lot approaching this same problem are these new tactical presets introduced in FM 19. Before it I had no idea where to start, because there are so much team instructions, and I also had no idea what works with what best. Now when you choose certain tactical preset, you get team instructions with it already active. Which is great because it at least gives you a starting point, then you can observe match, try turning something on or off and see how it affects overall action on the pitch.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Santa Claus said:

What helped me a lot approaching this same problem are these new tactical presets introduced in FM 19. Before it I had no idea where to start, because there are so much team instructions, and I also had no idea what works with what best. Now when you choose certain tactical preset, you get team instructions with it already active. Which is great because it at least gives you a starting point, then you can observe match, try turning something on or off and see how it affects overall action on the pitch.

Yeah that's good advice mate. I was excited when I heard that FM19 had tactical presets, it was one of the reasons why I bought it this year. Then though I develop this complex, that if I use the presets then I'm taking the easy route and copying things. I feel like then it wouldn't be my own tactic that has got me positive results, lol. 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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2 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Yeah that's good advice mate. I was excited when I heard that FM19 had tactical presets, it was one of the reasons why I bought it this year. Then though I develop this complex, that if I use the presets then I'm taking the easy route and copying things. I feel like then it wouldn't be my own tactic that has got me positive results, lol. 

I felt the same way, trust me. Because in previous FMs, when inevitably my tactic fails, I'd try downloaded plug-and-play one, which worked, but didn't bring me as near much enjoyment as when I made one myself. But this is different, really. No preset works perfectly, nothing is "carved-in-stone" so to speak. You need to adapt it based on players you have, strengths of your team, and opponent you are facing. Pick one style, load it, see what's happening. Take note of, for eg, how you lose possession - did your player lost the ball because his role tells him to dribble more? Or maybe he took a shot from distance? Maybe he didn't have viable option to pass to? Observe why his teammates weren't an option for pass - was their movement a problem or maybe simply their role and duty tells them to occupy different position on the pitch? Maybe passing range TI is problem - you have it set as short but there is no one near to receive the ball. Watch closely all those things, start a test save with random club, just to get feel for things. And remember, nothing works instantly, if you are feeling you are playing well and that system is good and it makes sense, stick with it, let players get used to it, results will come eventually. Best of luck :thup:

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3 hours ago, Santa Claus said:

I felt the same way, trust me. Because in previous FMs, when inevitably my tactic fails, I'd try downloaded plug-and-play one, which worked, but didn't bring me as near much enjoyment as when I made one myself. But this is different, really. No preset works perfectly, nothing is "carved-in-stone" so to speak. You need to adapt it based on players you have, strengths of your team, and opponent you are facing. Pick one style, load it, see what's happening. Take note of, for eg, how you lose possession - did your player lost the ball because his role tells him to dribble more? Or maybe he took a shot from distance? Maybe he didn't have viable option to pass to? Observe why his teammates weren't an option for pass - was their movement a problem or maybe simply their role and duty tells them to occupy different position on the pitch? Maybe passing range TI is problem - you have it set as short but there is no one near to receive the ball. Watch closely all those things, start a test save with random club, just to get feel for things. And remember, nothing works instantly, if you are feeling you are playing well and that system is good and it makes sense, stick with it, let players get used to it, results will come eventually. Best of luck :thup:

Yeah I suppose so, none of those presets exploit the match engine either. Thanks for the advice mate, hopefully I can get something working :)

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7 hours ago, Y2Jones said:

I have started the squad building post but work at Uni is piling up so that has to take priority

Ahh those days when I was still new to the game and I also thought FM was a secondary priority :kriss:.

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19 hours ago, herne79 said:

Ahh those days when I was still new to the game and I also thought FM was a secondary priority :kriss:.

Don't know if I should be excited or terrified for the future then :lol:

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Very inspiring thread, man. Are you still playing with Catania?

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Missed this post when it was first made and reading through it now was a joy :applause:

On 12/03/2019 at 18:31, Y2Jones said:

Like I said, this is not any revolutionary tactic and definitely took loads of inspiration from others. I'm not claiming it to be a fully self thought out tactic but it's my first one that I haven't directly taken from one source like for like, but added loads of ideas together to fit me and what I wanted to do, which started with a few basic ideas that I came up with, and as it moved on took inspiration from other ideas I had seen and wanted to try. It has been a real enjoyable learning process. I tried everything and kept aspects of things I liked, things that worked and things that fit my ideas.

You shouldn't worry about this, even the tactical mastermind that is Pep Guardiola has stated "Ideas belong to everyone and I have stolen as many as I could." learning from the likes of Cruijff, Bielsa and Juanma Lillo.

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On 18/03/2019 at 10:00, Y2Jones said:

Back to back to back league wins, the third being an invincible league win with only 2 draws. We didn't concede a league goal until January. The system improves as the players improve. We also remained invincible in all competitions.

results1.thumb.png.041362cdd6eeacb981e70dd0d366e5a6.png
results2.thumb.png.1168de61a4e0c2401d9c4039e8d13b8c.png
results3.thumb.png.10acd8e5733e5282f0ea7947a3545e57.png

champleagueback2back.thumb.png.a668bc9febca69fe644c3cecd6213d2d.png

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vsliverpoolclfinal.thumb.png.f4ea0f26be14474a3db3d103112582d3.png

Back to back Champions league wins, a treble last season and a quadruple the season just completed. I didn't anticipate just how successful this system would be.

These results feel a little too good to be true, especially for a club without an obvious talent advantage.

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I spend about a week writing down my tactical ideas and getting a good basis for how to achieve them....

 

And then i start to play matches and realise im as **** as i was 10 years ago.

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On 24/08/2019 at 19:30, Overmars said:

These results feel a little too good to be true, especially for a club without an obvious talent advantage.

 

On 25/08/2019 at 18:16, fthy said:

good job.how is squad?

Not sure what you want me to say or how it feels too good to be true considering unbeaten runs haven't been that uncommon on FM with the right tactic and players. I wouldn't say we have an obvious talent advantage but we definitely have talent. 2 or more very good players in each position minus a couple.

GKs
Gks.thumb.png.5d0d7ca094f4dc2f09c395feffbdec78.png

WBs
Wbs.thumb.png.425867facb3ffcfad385875002bac634.png

CBs
CBs.thumb.png.64a8c0d8688c6c850ca23ad6233fb5f7.png

DMs
Dms.thumb.png.edaa4e2cf34e69145a7dfa3bbe474bc3.png
CMs
Cms.thumb.png.ac9fe0120b76cee186956bd48df06d89.png
WMs
WMs.thumb.png.ad6119205607f136d7deb1702359f5ac.png
STs
STs.thumb.png.15a551cd1c952dadd5f8068afb88a200.png

 

Edited by Y2Jones
Wrong pic

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@Y2Jones are there plans to do any more analysis? This was a great read and very interesting. Great to read an in-depth read of a tactic. You learn so much. Have developed my own 352 but always happy to pick things up. 

Would love to understand your thought process in matches more. What is the thinking behind moving LOE? I move it up when applying pressure or trying to keep attacking opponent at bay but lower it if coming up against a brick wall to try and get them to come out. Never tend to move defensive line from higher unless lots of balls going over the top which isn’t very often. 

I see that you sometimes move to a 4411. What is the thinking behind that and how is it constructed? Are there other formations you move to in a match? I sometimes move my DLP from the 3 man midfield in my 352 to AM which can be effective. Also CWB up to the wings if really needing to attack. 

From your thread you mention swapping defensive midfielder from Anchor man/defensive midfielder/half back  what is the thought process? Also what effects  does the situational PIs have on the match for your tactic?

Any info on any of the above would help my learning and hopefully can transfer some tips to my own tactic  

Great thread  well done. Great to see well thought out threads. I would lap up any more info and hope the thread isn’t finished  

 

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On 27/09/2019 at 21:23, loisvale said:

@Y2Jones are there plans to do any more analysis? This was a great read and very interesting. Great to read an in-depth read of a tactic. You learn so much. Have developed my own 352 but always happy to pick things up. 

Would love to understand your thought process in matches more. What is the thinking behind moving LOE? I move it up when applying pressure or trying to keep attacking opponent at bay but lower it if coming up against a brick wall to try and get them to come out. Never tend to move defensive line from higher unless lots of balls going over the top which isn’t very often. 

I see that you sometimes move to a 4411. What is the thinking behind that and how is it constructed? Are there other formations you move to in a match? I sometimes move my DLP from the 3 man midfield in my 352 to AM which can be effective. Also CWB up to the wings if really needing to attack. 

From your thread you mention swapping defensive midfielder from Anchor man/defensive midfielder/half back  what is the thought process? Also what effects  does the situational PIs have on the match for your tactic?

Any info on any of the above would help my learning and hopefully can transfer some tips to my own tactic  

Great thread  well done. Great to see well thought out threads. I would lap up any more info and hope the thread isn’t finished  

 

Thanks so much for the great response and I'm sorry with the delayed reply, been a tough view months with uni etc. 

You pretty much got in terms of LOE and D-line as it's what has become efficient for me to change the way we control space. Depending on opposition and momentum I will shift around right after goals quite a lot. Also once I think a game is done I usually drop LOE right down. Moving the d-line for me just depends on opposition passing and pace of my back line and their attackers.

The reasoning for the switch to a 4411 was to allow a wonder kid to get in the team and it allowed us even more flexibility. Its essentially the same set up although the AP is pushed behind the striker whilst the DM becomes CM on defend. our IWB also becomes less about attack and more about filling the space behind the midfield. I played a very similar formation in a Swansea save based upon Rodger's tactics from his time there so I take some inspiration from there also. 

The defensive midfielder in my opinion is what can make or break a side, and knowing how to deploy the kind of player you have available in the role is so important. We'd usually start with a DM-Su, as through testing I found this to be the most fluid of the roles available in terms of contributing to defence and link up. Many of my goals come from key passes from this role. I would switch to defend if coming up against a strong side or if there was quality playing in the hole that I had to deal with. Switching to anchor man only happened when I was either chasing a goal to allow my fullbacks to go further up the pitch, or to see out games under pressure and it rarely ever failed me. I never really ended up using half back as anchor man did a good enough job for what I needed situation-ally. The PI's are just there for me to try and change our attacks, exploit opposition space or to close out games.

Hope this helps, sorry once again for the long awaited response! 

For you and anyone else interested, I will be testing this tactic out on the FM2020 beta with Lazio this Friday on twitch if you are interested to see how it carries over and updates it may receive. Don't want this to sound like an advertisement or something but I have no idea where else to put this so if you fancy hearing me shout at artificial intelligence in a welsh accent then pop in https://www.twitch.tv/giles15_

 

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Would love to listen in but off to York for some frothy ones. Are you recording it?

Edited by loisvale

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