Developing my First Tactic- An Identity Crisis, a 4-1-4-1 and my process to create a successful tactic for the first time

[Y2Jones]

Hi there, excited for my first post here on the forum! I'm afraid it might be awfully long and don't want to bore people, so feel free to skip a little introduction I give and focus upon my new approach to creating a successful tactic with my side predicted to finish bottom of Serie A. I hope you enjoy!

Before I get started I wanted to acknowledge that this is my first forum post here. I have dipped in and out of reading threads and articles over the years but I feel inspired to share my recent approach that I formed from reading, watching and trying out a lot of ideas to find something that worked for me. I'm not sure exactly where this will take me, but I've recently learned a lot about the game and have always struggled making my own successful tactics and system. I usually stumble upon a successful save by copying popular user tactics and just gathering a good squad. I felt the quality of the team was what was working, mixed with tactics created by other people, and not me being involved that much in a strange way. I felt as though I understood the game at an okay level, but I didn't feel as though I had really accomplished anything. Whenever I tried to create my own tactic it usually ended in disaster, with no aims, ideas or inspiration behind my systems, they almost always failed. 

I then decided to get back into FM19 after the winter update, previously having a fairly casual save with Doncaster that never went anywhere. This time I wanted to make my own tactics, and play like an actual manager, rather than sitting back and using someone else's work. I wanted a fairly challenging save, so I picked Catania in Serie C, to try and re-establish the club in Italy's top flight after a few years out. It wasn't until we reached our second season back in Serie A that I can say I fully implemented my ideas into the team and created my first tactic, but the results speak for themselves. I coasted through Serie C and Serie B, as my squad had enough quality, but again as I tried to give the club an identity, something would fail and I would throw everything out the window and try again. I started using an Atalanta influenced 343 system and wanted to utilise Alessandro Cortinovis in the Alejandro Gomez role, but it didn't work that well so I panicked and copied a tactic to coast through the rest of Serie C. I then wanted to use a Simeone influenced style, as he was a former manager of Catania and this saw us through Serie B fairly comfortably but again I didn't see the tactic as my own. 1st year in Serie A I changed again and decided I wanted to try a Total Football influenced game, which failed miserably. I then tried a possession tactic that saw us get some good results but I wasn't happy with certain games only creating 1 or 2 chances and not having a shot on target. This was again mostly taken from other user's tactics and I still didn't feel the work was fully my own and we had a moderately successful 1st season back in Serie A, finish 12th after being predicted 20th. I was reading and watching a lot of content but I couldn't translate what I thought I learned into the game. I then re-read everything with a different mindset. I thought I should give some sort of background but I digress and don't want to bore in my first post.

Cleon's thread regarding a step by step guide to creating a tactic gave me a lot of ideas and things to try. 

I also took a lot of inspiration and idea's from Herne's thread on his Tiki-Taka based system. 

• tLdR: Struggled finding an identity for the club and constantly changed ideas and direction when things went wrong, resorting to using community tactics, when I wanted to make my own.

However, the one thing that didn't change during my tactical identity crisis was my transfer policy and squad building. I had gathered a fairly decent side, focusing on attributes influenced by a post I read on total football, the attributes I targeted were:

• Good on the ball/Technical - (Technique, Passing and First Touch)
• Intelligent players - (Vision, Anticipation, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Off the Ball and Teamwork)
• Fit and hard working players - (Determination, Work Rate, Stamina, Natural Fitness)
• Specialised positional attributes - (e.g Jumping Reach for a defender, dribbling for a wide man, Flair for attackers etc.)

My inspiration for this policy was taken from Ozil to the Arsenal's Total Football series of threads. 

 

Over the seasons I gathered players (with very limited funds) who fit these attributes and only signed those with a majority of those attributes that I wanted, there were some exceptions but I have reasoning for choosing these players. I will go into more detail on each player I brought into the club maybe not in this post though depending on it's length. But I do think it's important to show the team I assembled which lead to decision making when it came to the tactic itself. I just wanted to state the consolidation over several years of my transfer policy which left me with players that could play a lot of different systems and tactics.

 

Inspired by articles and threads, and really wanting to improve my understanding and skill at the game, I made the decision to stick to only making my own tactics and if they fail, they fail. This was my process into creating my first successful tactic for my Catania side. I wanted to pick a few ideas on how I wanted to play and base the rest of the tactic off of that, keeping it as simple as I could.

 

Looking at my squad, it lacked depth and quality, as we used a lot of loans to make enough money to work in our second Serie A campaign. One of those loans was Adrien Bongiovanni, a young Belgian (how is that name not Italian???) winger and midfielder from Monaco. He played well for us and he was available to buy for a cheap £4.3mil so I decided I wanted to build the team around him. He was quick, had a great mind, excellent passing ability and worked hard. Deciding to build the side around Bongiovanni was my first step in creating my tactic.

 

• Aim One: Build the side around young Adrien Bongiovanni in the play-maker role.

 

With my first idea in place, I then came up with a second idea/target that I wanted to accomplish playing in Italy; Having the fewest goals conceded over a season. Known for it's defending, I took influence from the Italian league and wanted my side to be the meanest defence in the land. There were two ways I came up with to accomplish this:

-Play a very defensive style of football, which might limit creativity from the player I wanted to build the side around.
-Play a possession style of football to keep teams off the ball and away from my goal.

I went with the latter but I didn't want to stifle my final third with having too much useless possession and not doing anything with it. I would use it when I needed it, not going overkill and picking a couple of TI's to help us keep the ball away from our goal. but still having a threat in the final third. 

Reading about a possession philosophy, I was inspired to try a high press/block to keep the opposition pinned back and win the ball high up the pitch, thus seeing more possession of the ball but in better areas. This meant using a Much Higher Defensive Line and Line of Engagement,  counter-pressing and closing down like animals. So that was another thing already decided for me which became the second step in my creation. Just by setting myself an in game target, and the aim of building a team around a creative threat in midfield, things were decided for me and made logical sense. We obviously needed the players required to play such a risky high line who were always switched on and quick enough to react to fast striker/ ball over the top.

• Aim Two: Try to conceded the fewest goals in the Serie A by employing possession tactics with a high press.

With these elements in place the tactic began coming together like a puzzle, it was quite surprising to me. I finally understood how being simple and having a few ideas can make decisions for you in the tactical creator as things came together logically. For example, playing a high press game, it made sense to try a Pressing Forward. We already had Bongiovanni selected as an advanced play-maker, and to allow him to get up the pitch I needed a man to screen the back. This lead me to a Defensive Midfielder/Anchor Man/Half Back at DM. The role ended up changing depending on in game situations but usually started as a DM-Su. To be more solid at the back and to allow a DM, I opted for a 4-1-4-1 formation. Since I had a very high line, it made sense to add a Sweeper Keeper.  The inspiration to use a 4-1-4-1 came from reading posts from this thread:

 

I liked the idea of players making space for our to CM's to operate as it essentially fit will with my idea to get the most out of Bongiovanni and build the side around him, specifically this post with in the thread: (originally from the Pep Guardiola thread but was also quoted in this one.) 

 

This is what the tactic looked like at this point:`

PF(s)

WM(a)      CM(s)                AP(a)      WM(a)
DM(s)

                        FB(s)   CD(d)      CD(d)       FB(s)                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                SK(s)

Play out of Defence (for possession)
 Distribute to CB's, Counter-Press, Counter
Much Higher Defensive Line, Much Higher Line of Engagement, Extremely Urgent Closing Down, Use Tighter Marking (High Press)

 

I then began looking at the players I had that could fit into this system. I then had an epiphany about a player I had bought in January. Vlad Dragomir, a young Romanian Midfielder and Winger reminded me a lot of one of my favourite players of all time, Steven Gerrard. Dragomir had all good to great attributes that I wanted, but it was his traits that led me to the comparison. 

 

Il Drago

-Gets forward whenever possible
-Tries Killer Balls often
-Shoots from distance
-Places shots
-Likes to switch ball to other flank

He possessed great energy and work rate to get up and down the pitch, and had the ability to pull off a trademark long pass or long shot just like Gerrard. So I thought it would be interesting to add a Gerrard-esque role to my system, next to my play-maker. I didn't want to use a Box to Box Midfielder, as I had established I wanted to play far away from my goal line so why would he need to run up and down? (even though he could) I wanted something with more attacking flair, so I tried the Mezzala on support and it worked well. He would drift wide like Gerrard tended to do and burst through to the box to finish off moves, unlock a defence or blast a shot into the net. After this decision, I was afraid I could become exposed in the middle, so I added an Inverted Wing-Back on the left to in theory compensate for the two CM's to cause havoc. I also thought about changing the DM to Defend but I thought that it could be a change I would make in game.

• Aim 3: Create a Gerrard-influenced role for Vlad Dragomir.

The roles and duties now formed this:

PF(s)
WM(a) MEZ(s) AP(a) WM(a)
A(d)
IWB(s) CD(d) CD(d) FB(s)
SK(s)

Suddenly I had found that my roles and duties chose themselves logically, as my idea developed. It made sense to me that one thing influenced another decision and so on. I was left with the two WM roles and the RB to decide on. I kept it fairly simple and took influence from Guardiola's use of wide men staying wide, with players either playing with their strong foot towards the touch-line or the middle. This would change based on opposition and game plan, but usually defaulted at a right footed player on the right, and a left footed player on the left. I looked at my wide-men's attributes and found one of them lacked good enough work rate, which is why I didn't choose the winger or inverted winger roles. I was afraid that they wouldn't put the work in that the role of a Wide Midfielder would. The WM also allowed me to click stay wider, and depending on personnel, run wide or cut inside with the ball. I then decided to switch the DM to an anchor man, to compensate for some fairly aggressive roles in-front of him and to his sides. I still wanted him to support attacks though and be an option in build up but it was something that I could tweak depending on the game. I had this inspiration from reading the Pep Guardiola thread - 

 

• Aim 4: Use the idea of Guardiola's wingers staying wide

 

• tLdR; I came up with four aims/ideas of how I wanted my side to play; 1-Build around Bongiovanni, 2-Concede the fewest goals in the Serie A, 3-Use a Gerrard-esque role in midfield & 4-Use idea of Guardiola's wingers staying wide.

 

It now became an almost complete system and I had a good idea on how it would work in theory, but in practice is another story. This is essentially what I wanted/expected from each position. (Changed depending on game-plan and opposition.)

GK- Mop up behind our defensive line if a long ball comes over or our offside trap is broken. Become a passing option in possession with the ability to start attacking moves. If we were getting pressed high up the pitch I asked him to kick the ball wide to our WM's.
RB)- Work hard to support attacking moves and in transition to keep our defensive shape at the back. He could support a wide player by being a deeper option to deliver a cross or overlap when playing with a left-footer at RM. Good positional awareness and concentration required to play our high defensive line. Would sometimes add get further forward PI in certain situations. eg. to overlap RM or to add further support to be an extra man in attack.
CBs- Very basic and standard. No PIs but players who are quick enough and smart enough to play a High Line and offside trap were needed. Ability to jump is also important to nullify aerial threats and keep our sheets clean.
LB- A player to in theory take up the position of the MCL who has more attacking freedom. Would be in line with the DM in possession but I was afraid we could be taken advantage of on our left flank. He should recycle possession and be an extra man available for a pass. 
DM- Very good positional awareness needed here. To be able to cover holes left by our midfield and LB, whilst being solid defensively and being another passing option in midfield.  
MCR- Our key player and the initial muse for our system. He would start attacks with his excellent passing, or could dribble through the middle, drawing markers and unleashing a runner into space. Should contribute a lot of goals and assists. Work hard in our high press to win the ball high up the pitch.
MCL- Gerrard inspired role. Be able to carry the ball through the middle and half spaces, switch the play and hit accurate passes to advance us up the pitch.Link with the ML to create overloads on the left wing and arrive in the box to finish off attacks. Utilise hard working player in the high press to hassle opponents high up the pitch. Be a threat from long shots.
MR/L- Players that should stay wide and offer a switch of play to stretch a side to allow our CM's to play. Possess enough dribbling and flair to cause trouble in a 1v1 and be on the end of crosses from the opposite wing. Work hard in our high press and drop into a 4 when defending. PI's are Stay Wider and depending on the foot, run wide or cut inside.
ST- Hassle defenders and lead our press. Work hard for the team and link up play between midfielders, whilst being a goal threat himself. Score, create, press. I added roam from position to allow him to easily receive the ball and pull around markers, making space for the midfield to attack. 

 

Sounds and looks good in theory, I tested it out in pre-season and the first three games of the season, watching in 10 minute intervals to see what was happening. This was the first time I had ever done some on field analysis so I'm not sure on all the things to look out for but here are some examples of my ideas being translated onto the pitch. Please give feedback on how to be more informative with this, as sometimes it's hard to see what is happening or choose good examples of what I want to show.

 

On The Ball-

 

 

Here is an image of one of the first games of the season vs our rivals Palermo. They set up in a 4-4-2 and this is early in the game. I am pausing the game at random points to see if what I want to happen is happening. Not an amazing example but this was my first attempt.
You can see my CD Demiral on the ball after receiving it from a goal kick. This is where I want to see us build from the back. Demiral has 3 passing options, being 1 which is our IWB, 2 our DM and 3 our MEZ. 2 would be a safe option if he got closed down, allowing an easy pass into our AP in the middle of the pitch, although he is marked he has some space to receive the ball. A pass to our MEZ(3) might be risky as the striker is cutting off the lane, but he is facing square so could play a great pass to 4 our WM who has a lot of space to his left and behind him. The final option is number 1, our IWB. This is a risk free pass as he is completely unmarked, and the easiest option for Demiral, but notice the amount of space our IWB has to move into if he receives the ball. Yes he could be closed down by the RM, but a quick ball to number 4 and we are behind their midfield with a pacey winger carrying the ball forward. Either of these options is a good one, but he opts for 1, who ends up being closed down and we recycle around the back.

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

This is the same move but further advanced, our WB started at the red dot and played a ball into Castrovilli. I switched the WM's so Castrovilli was cutting inside, and our LB acted more like a WB rather than an IWB. Castrovilli plays an easy ball into Dragomir who is on the ball. We managed to move Palermo around, bringing their RB high and their CM across which allowed a one touch pass into our AP in the centre circle followed by another one touch pass into the space where our WB is making a run. We are in behind their RB and essentially have a 3v3 on their back line with our WB, ST and MR vs 2 CB's and LB. Patient play leading to an opening which we exploited. The move continued and ended with a blocked cross from our WB. We swapped wings later again turning LB back to IWB.

I was a bit worried here, after popping the ball around the back I noticed how close my IWB was to my MEZ. They are practically holding hands. A bit too deep for my liking here but Palermo's strikers were pressing us high. I wasn't sure how to separate the IWB and MEZ here, however a long ball over the top from Owusu on the ball led to our ST being clean through and winning a penalty to put us 1-0. Not my preferred way to goal but having the ability to do this is nice. 

 

 

Here is a more advanced move. We played our way nicely into midfield and found Owusu in a great area after switching him to a DM on support. After thinking about changing the IWB role my thoughts were consolidated here. 1 is our IWB on support, very high in our attack and tucked in, being an extra man in midfield. We could easily give him the ball and recycle, or do what actually happens and play in 2. 

 

 

Dragomir receives the ball and draws 3 players toward him, opening up a great opportunity for our IWB to drive into the box or shoot. Ends up getting to him and he curls one in from range to put us 2-0 against our rivals. The IWB is acting more aggressive than intended, but he does have 'Gets further forward' so it might become a balancing act or a risk factor allowing him to travel far or asking him to stay deeper.

 

 

This image is from a 5-0 thrashing of Sassuolo away. This the build up to our second goal and let me know my plan to unleash Bongiovanni was working here. We moved the ball around nicely, dragging Sassuolo's midfield to the left, leaving acres of space for Bongiovanni to explode into and pick his pass. Another key pass from Owusu here, getting the initial ball into Bongiovanni, informing my decision to let him play with a support duty. As you can see 4 players numbered being our other four attacking players, 1 is our WM, 2 our PF, 3 our MEZ and 4 our other WM, all bursting into the area to get on the end of the pass. Bongiovanni dribbled forward before choosing our Striker as his pass and assisting our second goal with a perfect through ball. Our other goals came from a set piece, a great utilisation of the high press to catch a defender in possession leaving our ST 1on1 with the keeper, an own goal and a great shot from our DM outside the box.

 

This came from a big game at home vs Lazio. Bongiovanni again receives the ball from our DM and enough space has been opened for him to dribble through the middle toward the box. He chose to attack the space, and unleashed a shot outside the box scoring a huge goal in a 1-0 win. This is enough to show me he is operating exactly how I want.

 

Probably our best performance of the season was away at Roma. We absolutely dominated the heavy favourites at their own ground in a 3-0 win for Catania. This is our second goal. I noticed how narrow Roma were playing, again we used patient build up to move their midfield across. Our LM is on the ball a has a good amount of space in front to dribble and our RM is in so much space on the wide right. Our LM ends up dribbling and crossing the ball into our RM for an easy second goal.

Demolished in Rome- 3-0 and 3pts to Catania.

 

        

These are two screenshots of a game against Juventus at home. Bongiovanni receives the ball initially from our IWB(1) and begins his dribble into space and beginning to play-make. He passes to our MEZ who dwells on the ball before playing to our LM who is right footed cutting inside. Notice where our IWB starts and where he ends up when our LM Castrovilli gets the ball. The movement of our striker is key here, as he has opened the space for our IWB (1) and Bongiovanni (2) to attack. An excellent curled pass into our on-running IWB saw us score the opening goal against Juve. Some great team understanding here, I absolutely love this move as it began with Juve clearing the ball and us pinning them in their half. The move started with our IWB allowing our play-maker to dribble, linking up with our Mezzala who played an easy ball to our winger, whilst our Striker pulled away the CB's, we had two runners surging onto the through ball. An excellent team move here. 

 

Another top side dominated, as Juve never threatened us at all and their only goal came from a penalty. A 3-1 win for us at home with our two other goals being started by the high press, both ending in through balls to our surging midfielders. 

 

This comes from our final game of the season vs Juventus away. Bongiovanni had been moved upfront in the dying minutes as our striker wasn't effective. He ran onto a ball over the top from our centre back and controlled the ball here. This goal highlights how I wanted my Gerrard-role to work, as you can see him in the D bursting into the box. An easy cutback here and we score our second goal in the 90th minute to win 2-1 away at Juve. Beautiful!

 

 

I think I have provided some okay examples on how my CM's played, both scoring and creating in the manner I wanted them too. Bongiovanni being our play-maker and making daring runs and splitting open backlines, whilst our Gerrard role linked play up and got on the end of moves to smash them home. I could show many more examples of this but I would be here all night. The goal against Juventus at home is one of my favourite goals and highlights perfectly how the tactic can create space for our forward running midfielders to attack, and shows a great sense of teamwork as many parts were key in this move. 

So I managed to achieve (atleast I myself believe it) what I wanted from my midfielders, allowing to drive my side forward and be the prime suppliers and scorers. I also utilised possession when needed to move teams around and create space for our midfield to operate. One image also shows how we implemented the idea of Peps wide players staying wide, being able to allow more space inside and become narrower in the penalty area to get on the end of crosses or through balls. My LM ended up contributing 15 assists whilst scoring 5, and my RM scoring 8 and assisting 10. It let me know we had more than one route to goal and more than one player who could finish off a chance. But how did I do defensively? Did we reach our target of conceding the fewest goals in a season? 

 

22 goals conceded in 38 matches, with 24 clean sheets.

 

Extremely happy we managed to achieve this, especially with my very average side which lacked great quality in depth. Our high line and high press has been greatly effective, only occasionally falling asleep to a ball over the top. 

I felt a great sense of achievement, outperforming big European clubs with an average and very young squad. We were tipped for relegation and predicted to finish rock bottom of the table, so how did we do in the league?

 

 

A very successful overachieving campaign with a cup final defeat to Juventus on pens (We got our revenge in the end) and I finally felt like I have understood the game better from trying things from simple ideas I wanted to see play out, with help from other ideas that people had suggested in other threads and bringing together aspects to make it work for me. The knowledge I gained from reading threads and watching videos massively helped and it has really given me a good sense of accomplishment finally in this game that I had been looking for. Don't get me wrong, I still learned and recognised where to change things and make tweaks to counter teams or to get back into a game or close a game out, and I also acknowledge that this is definitely not a revolutionary tactic and is fairly similar to ones I took inspiration from, but this is more about my process getting there, trying different things and choosing things that fitted my idea and what I liked. Now finally it's time for the tactic. What I will present is more of a baseline that allows me to make changes when required, however with the chosen roles and duties, allows the team to play how I wanted them to play as outlined above and backed up by examples. A few things changed during the season so this was our final tactic going into face Juventus away to secure the title. The whole point of this post was to explain what I wanted to do, how I did it and the results with examples, but the initial idea for what I wanted to create could of been entirely different I would be here with a very different tactic for it. This post is aiming to present how I finally had a light-bulb moment and how I allowed myself to learn, adapt and understand the game better after years of stumbling around. 

 

Not too many changes, but the attack duties became support if we ever went positive/attacking. The changes I made most often were asking my wide-midfielders to either cut inside or run wide, alter mentality, tempo and passing range to the circumstances. I used be more expressive when faced with a hard defence to break down, which sometimes came with play wider. My DLine dropped to higher but often moved around as we gradually shifted pressing styles throughout the match.  My MEZ could also become a DLP and my AP could also become a CM(a). My DM also moved between an Anchor-Man, a Half-Back and a Defensive Midfielder. I chose balanced on this occasion as we were up against Juventus on the final day of the season, and I didn't want to be too cautious or too aggressive.
Shorter Passing and play out of defence is there too help with keeping the ball away from the other team, but our passing length and tempo was something I changed a lot depending on how the game was going. I picked pass into space as the tactic basically aims to make space by moving teams around, allowing space for my CM's to attack, so passing the ball into that space would help with that. It was also useful to hit balls over the top for my striker which usually led to goals. 

Distribute to CB was used to help build from the back, and whilst we start with Counter & Counter-Press these would often get switched on and off throughout games depending on the circumstances. 

Higher Defensive Line and Much Higher Line of Engagement, mixed with Extremely Urgent Closing Down and Tighter Marking was there for my high press, but again we weren't afraid to drop to mid or low blocks when we needed too. Offside Trap is there to help with our high line and use the intelligence of our back line effectively. 

Final PI's

• WM- Stay Wider and Run Wide with Ball or Cut Inside
• AP- Roam from Position
• PF- Roam from Position

Situational PI's -

 

• FB- Get Further Forward, Take Fewer Risks, Sit Narrower
• CD's- Take Fewer Risks
• IWB- Take Fewer Risks
• AP- Remove Roam from Position

Like I said, this is not any revolutionary tactic and definitely took loads of inspiration from others. I'm not claiming it to be a fully self thought out tactic but it's my first one that I haven't directly taken from one source like for like, but added loads of ideas together to fit me and what I wanted to do, which started with a few basic ideas that I came up with, and as it moved on took inspiration from other ideas I had seen and wanted to try. It has been a real enjoyable learning process. I tried everything and kept aspects of things I liked, things that worked and things that fit my ideas.
 

I would be very grateful for peoples feedback on how they view this tactic and how it can be improved, but I will add another post after this one highlighting my squad building process and picking certain players for certain scenarios, which informed my tactic heavily. 

Could this work with another team? Maybe, it's definitely one where you need to assess the game and make correct changes when necessary, and one that demands a certain type of player. 

 

I think my next post will explain how I built my squad, the reason for choosing those players and how they worked within the system. Alongside this would be how the players, especially the front 5, could all inter-change and offer something different to each role. 

I know it's a long one and I may of bored a lot, but showing my process is what this is all about. I felt the next logical step would be to get feedback from others and see how we can become better and adapt it. My target for next season is to concede the fewest goals again and also to remain unbeaten at home. I would also love feedback on the style and format of the post and how I can improve, considering this being my very first attempt.

Thanks for reading and I hope to see some discussion and feedback below! 

[Rashidi]

Nice opening thread for someone's first post. Welcome to the forums.

[Gegenklaus]

Pure quality. Amazing post. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[Cleon]

Welcome to the forum, a great first post. Also great to see someone take elements from all the threads that myself and others use and adapt them into their own ideas and saves. It's rare that we see posts like this.

[ianscousemac]

Very good post.  I'll certainly take some of that onboard.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Y2Jones said:

Inspired by articles and threads, and really wanting to improve my understanding and skill at the game, I made the decision to stick to only making my own tactics and if they fail, they fail.

Probably the best thing I've read in a long time.

Great first post .

[Miek]

We need more topics like these. Great read and very informative.

Would also love to see a post about the things that went wrong, how you spotted it and how you fixed it.

 

[Robson 07]

Welcome to the forum.

[luton]

This has to be the best post I’ve read for a long time. What I like is how you new how you wanted to play, stripped it back and started again. You took the time to read some very good posts to help implement your ideas instead of being on here asking questions. In my opinion,you’ve done what I think everyone should do who’s quite new to the game and that’s watch matches to see where issues lay. You made in game changes to your tactic which shows that you can’t just plug and play a tactic anymore. By detailing your dilemmas etc.. I really hope that a lot of people read your post and take everything onboard what you’ve done, I’m a believer that the only way you’re going to learn is to work it out and resolve issues yourself, that’s what you’ve done and I admire that.

[nugatti]

Great post, logic and results!

IMO nothing beats the versatility of the 4-1-4-1. Looking forward to your future post on the players you brought in to build your squad.

[Y2Jones]

21 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Nice opening thread for someone's first post. Welcome to the forums.

Thanks very much! I'm glad I finally got involved in the community after all these years!

21 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Pure quality. Amazing post. 

Big thank you brother!

21 hours ago, Cleon said:

Welcome to the forum, a great first post. Also great to see someone take elements from all the threads that myself and others use and adapt them into their own ideas and saves. It's rare that we see posts like this.

Thank you for the welcome and response to the post. I also appreciated the tweet you sent with my post linked, really inspired me to continue to write more in the future! It felt logical to take elements from different sources and I'm glad I was able to articulate that well. Thanks again! 

21 hours ago, ianscousemac said:

Very good post.  I'll certainly take some of that onboard.

Thank you very much my friend! I'm happy to hear that.

18 hours ago, herne79 said:

Probably the best thing I've read in a long time.

Great first post .

Thanks a lot man, really appreciate it! I'm glad I was able to receive such good feedback after just one post. Happy to see you enjoyed and can't wait to continue posting!

18 hours ago, Miek said:

We need more topics like these. Great read and very informative.

Would also love to see a post about the things that went wrong, how you spotted it and how you fixed it.

 

Cheers man, glad you enjoyed. That's definitely something I thought about including originally and I would be more than happy to write up about those things that went wrong and my solutions. Thanks again!

17 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Welcome to the forum.

Happy to finally get involved in the community!

7 hours ago, luton said:

This has to be the best post I’ve read for a long time. What I like is how you new how you wanted to play, stripped it back and started again. You took the time to read some very good posts to help implement your ideas instead of being on here asking questions. In my opinion,you’ve done what I think everyone should do who’s quite new to the game and that’s watch matches to see where issues lay. You made in game changes to your tactic which shows that you can’t just plug and play a tactic anymore. By detailing your dilemmas etc.. I really hope that a lot of people read your post and take everything onboard what you’ve done, I’m a believer that the only way you’re going to learn is to work it out and resolve issues yourself, that’s what you’ve done and I admire that.

Thank you for your excellent feedback, it really does mean a lot and inspires me to continue! That was one of my main intentions with this post, documenting how I managed to finally find accomplishment, in the hope that other people who might be in similar situations could take onboard things that might work for them. Thank you once again! 

3 hours ago, nugatti said:

Great post, logic and results!

IMO nothing beats the versatility of the 4-1-4-1. Looking forward to your future post on the players you brought in to build your squad.

Thanks man! I definitely agree, the formation allows so much versatility and dynamics in how a side can play, and can easily be played many different ways, even within the same match. I'm happy you enjoyed and that you are looking forward to future posts!

 

 

Hugely inspired from the great feedback I've received so far, it's been really surprising for me to see such great comments! I can't wait to continue posting and becoming more engaged with the community and continue to learn and improve, both in regards to the game and crafting threads and posts. 

[53bast1an]

First of all: Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's a good example how a user can "learn" the tactical side of FM. 

[jyn1989]

Amazing and great work. 

From my understanding, using Much Higher Line of Engagement with Higher Defensive Line will nullify the compact shape to effectively close down quickly. Just my thoughts. 

[djpdavey]

On 12/03/2019 at 18:31, Y2Jones said:

know it's a long one and I may of bored a lot

Not at all. Excellent post

[okereke]

Welcome to the (active) community!

I was kinda like you back in the day, never wanting to post and just reading, but once I did it I enjoyed it a lot so I think you definitely did the best you could. Be sure you'll have tons of fun engaging in conversation with the gents around here and it will allow you also to learn much more.

One thing you constantly repeat through your text explaining your approach is that you still feel that this tactic is not yours, that it is just a combination of other tactics, etc etc... Don't sell yourself so low man! How many real life managers build stuff off their brains without taking ideas from here and there, let alone FM players?

You definitely spent the proper time learning the game as real managers spent it learning the history of football and where this and that system work and don't, then applied what you considered right for your team and players. Don't think it can get any better, and the way you put it all together in the post, along with the use of images was superb, believe me.

No wonder you inspired me getting back to the game after a few months of hiatus. Hope to keep reading you around!

[herne79]

22 hours ago, Y2Jones said:

Hugely inspired from the great feedback I've received so far, it's been really surprising for me to see such great comments! I can't wait to continue posting and becoming more engaged with the community and continue to learn and improve, both in regards to the game and crafting threads and posts. 

Looking forward to it .

[robot_skeleton]

@Y2Jones a wonderful collection of useful information and a truly inspiring approach to the game, especially that you managed to make it about the players, which is something that I seem to completely avoid - I guess for the reason of not wanting to depend on them, but it definitely made me think about the issues my approach.

[nugatti]

On 14/03/2019 at 04:26, jyn1989 said:

Amazing and great work. 

From my understanding, using Much Higher Line of Engagement with Higher Defensive Line will nullify the compact shape to effectively close down quickly. Just my thoughts. 

He also writes that he changes around the line of engagement

[Luizinho]

@Y2Jones Do you change the system if Bongiovanni is unavailable? If so, then how?

[Y2Jones]

5 hours ago, Luizinho said:

@Y2Jones Do you change the system if Bongiovanni is unavailable? If so, then how?

Currently crafting a post about my squad and how it informed my tactic, and this is apart of that. Short answer yes, but it would depend on who we were up against and who we had available to play. I’ll go into much more detail when it comes to my next post which will cover it!

On 14/03/2019 at 21:30, robot_skeleton said:

@Y2Jones a wonderful collection of useful information and a truly inspiring approach to the game, especially that you managed to make it about the players, which is something that I seem to completely avoid - I guess for the reason of not wanting to depend on them, but it definitely made me think about the issues my approach.

Thank you very much!👍🏻

On 14/03/2019 at 10:21, okereke said:

Welcome to the (active) community!

I was kinda like you back in the day, never wanting to post and just reading, but once I did it I enjoyed it a lot so I think you definitely did the best you could. Be sure you'll have tons of fun engaging in conversation with the gents around here and it will allow you also to learn much more.

One thing you constantly repeat through your text explaining your approach is that you still feel that this tactic is not yours, that it is just a combination of other tactics, etc etc... Don't sell yourself so low man! How many real life managers build stuff off their brains without taking ideas from here and there, let alone FM players?

You definitely spent the proper time learning the game as real managers spent it learning the history of football and where this and that system work and don't, then applied what you considered right for your team and players. Don't think it can get any better, and the way you put it all together in the post, along with the use of images was superb, believe me.

No wonder you inspired me getting back to the game after a few months of hiatus. Hope to keep reading you around!

Wow, thank you man! I’m glad I was able to do that.

 

On 13/03/2019 at 20:35, 53bast1an said:

First of all: Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's a good example how a user can "learn" the tactical side of FM. 

Thank you man!

On 14/03/2019 at 03:26, jyn1989 said:

Amazing and great work. 

From my understanding, using Much Higher Line of Engagement with Higher Defensive Line will nullify the compact shape to effectively close down quickly. Just my thoughts. 

Thanks brother! Our press usually becomes situational depending on in game circumstances, but always begins high. I can definitely see a big risk in maintaining those TIs for 90 minutes.

[Rashidi]

 When I read the OP's post I was actually very happy, cos he is one of the few people I have heard off on the forum who treats pressing situationally. I believe that the secret to this game actually lies in how you manage your own defensive shape while retaining your attacking flair. There's something I want to add, people have asked me frequently about the need to sit back and defend deep. To be fair, the only real thing you should be worried about is whether your defenders are capable of sitting back. That does require them to be good at winning those balls dangerously close to goal. They have to deal with every cross. So when I am an underdog, I hate sit back soak strategies. I prefer taking the game to them, trying to dominate the game and keeping it away from them, and being high enough on the pitch so that when the opposition lose the ball in transition we are actually in a position to attack them.

Now just looking at your system, what you can do is spend some time thinking about how Team Mentality affects the 6 factors in the game.  Evaluate your players and your own weak spots. Then go look at your defensive line/LOE split.  Then think of how you can manage games effectively by using all the tools at your disposal. There is a lot possible in the game.

For one thing, prevent short gk distribution, have you seen which players in your team get affected by it? Do you really need it?  Play close attention to when the opposition keeper tries to play the ball from a goal kick, and you will hopefully see what I mean.

 

[TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos]

On 12/03/2019 at 18:31, Y2Jones said:

I made the decision to stick to only making my own tactics and if they fail, they fail.

Farewell Plug and Play!

@Y2Jones this is such an admirable approach, one I've tried to apply myself recently. Applying aspects of others approaches is also something I've done for years, there's nothing wrong with taking ideas from those much more tactically aware than ourselves.

As Bruce Lee said, 'adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own'

Once again, great post, enjoyable read, and looking forward to future updates 

 

[Gee_Simpson]

What if like me, you are hopeless tactically?

I'll admit, despite being a football fan all my life, I have only ever watched it for entertainment purposes. So I'm absolutely useless with tactics, I find it hard to spot things. Is there hope that I can learn as I go? This thread gives me hope!

Edited March 16, 2019 by Gee_Simpson

[Y2Jones]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

When I read the OP's post I was actually very happy, cos he is one of the few people I have heard off on the forum who treats pressing situationally. I believe that the secret to this game actually lies in how you manage your own defensive shape while retaining your attacking flair.

I've thought this for a long while, always made sense to me in real football but was always difficult to implement in previous FM's. I think the new line of engagement has really allowed situational pressing to be accomplished and I'm glad I was able to use it effectively. Also glad to make you very happy haha! 

Also thank you for the advice, definitely now understand what you are telling me. 

12 minutes ago, TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos said:

Farewell Plug and Play!

@Y2Jones this is such an admirable approach, one I've tried to apply myself recently. Applying aspects of others approaches is also something I've done for years, there's nothing wrong with taking ideas from those much more tactically aware than ourselves.

As Bruce Lee said, 'adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own'

Once again, great post, enjoyable read, and looking forward to future updates 

 

Great quote! Thank you man, can't wait to continue.

9 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

What if like me, you are hopeless tactically?

I'll admit, despite being a football fan all my life, I have only ever watched it for entertainment purposes. So I'm absolutely useless with tactics, I find it hard to spot things. Is there hope that I can learn as I go? This thread gives me hope!

That's amazing to hear, thank you very much my friend.

[Gee_Simpson]

So what I'm asking is, is it possible to learn as you go? Can you teach yourself how to start identifying problems without being tactically astute? @Cleon @Rashidi @Y2Jones

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

So what I'm asking is, is it possible to learn as you go? Can you teach yourself how to start identifying problems without being tactically astute? @Cleon @Rashidi @Y2Jones

Yes the creating a tactic series I've been doing is exactly about this topic

[Gee_Simpson]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Yes the creating a tactic series I've been doing is exactly about this topic

Thanks.

I've only skimmed over it so far. I will read it in depth later tonight 

[Rashidi]

7 hours ago, Cleon said:

Yes the creating a tactic series I've been doing is exactly about this topic

That is a very interesting question. I actually had time to help someone who had never played a football game and never watched a football game understand this game using chess. 

You don’t need to be tactically astute, you just need to understand that ultimately it’s how one formation controls space. Then it’s only a question about how well you control it and what you do about the spaces you don’t control.

Over the course of many years this forum has become a treasure trove of information. There are plenty of well written guides. It’s usually the same stuff, rehashed. I wrote a KISS guide a few years back, it’s still relevant. Having a bench strategy is also good. You don’t need to be tactically astute. In fact some people who are usually end up struggling cos they want to translate the depth of their knowledge without understanding the game itself.

 

[Brian]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

In fact some people who are usually end up struggling cos they want to translate the depth of their knowledge without understanding the game itself.

This is so like myself...  Approaching it like real life instead of a video game. 

[Santa Claus]

17 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

What if like me, you are hopeless tactically?

I'll admit, despite being a football fan all my life, I have only ever watched it for entertainment purposes. So I'm absolutely useless with tactics, I find it hard to spot things. Is there hope that I can learn as I go? This thread gives me hope!

What helped me a lot approaching this same problem are these new tactical presets introduced in FM 19. Before it I had no idea where to start, because there are so much team instructions, and I also had no idea what works with what best. Now when you choose certain tactical preset, you get team instructions with it already active. Which is great because it at least gives you a starting point, then you can observe match, try turning something on or off and see how it affects overall action on the pitch.

[Gee_Simpson]

5 hours ago, Santa Claus said:

What helped me a lot approaching this same problem are these new tactical presets introduced in FM 19. Before it I had no idea where to start, because there are so much team instructions, and I also had no idea what works with what best. Now when you choose certain tactical preset, you get team instructions with it already active. Which is great because it at least gives you a starting point, then you can observe match, try turning something on or off and see how it affects overall action on the pitch.

Yeah that's good advice mate. I was excited when I heard that FM19 had tactical presets, it was one of the reasons why I bought it this year. Then though I develop this complex, that if I use the presets then I'm taking the easy route and copying things. I feel like then it wouldn't be my own tactic that has got me positive results, lol. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Gee_Simpson

[Santa Claus]

2 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Yeah that's good advice mate. I was excited when I heard that FM19 had tactical presets, it was one of the reasons why I bought it this year. Then though I develop this complex, that if I use the presets then I'm taking the easy route and copying things. I feel like then it wouldn't be my own tactic that has got me positive results, lol. 

I felt the same way, trust me. Because in previous FMs, when inevitably my tactic fails, I'd try downloaded plug-and-play one, which worked, but didn't bring me as near much enjoyment as when I made one myself. But this is different, really. No preset works perfectly, nothing is "carved-in-stone" so to speak. You need to adapt it based on players you have, strengths of your team, and opponent you are facing. Pick one style, load it, see what's happening. Take note of, for eg, how you lose possession - did your player lost the ball because his role tells him to dribble more? Or maybe he took a shot from distance? Maybe he didn't have viable option to pass to? Observe why his teammates weren't an option for pass - was their movement a problem or maybe simply their role and duty tells them to occupy different position on the pitch? Maybe passing range TI is problem - you have it set as short but there is no one near to receive the ball. Watch closely all those things, start a test save with random club, just to get feel for things. And remember, nothing works instantly, if you are feeling you are playing well and that system is good and it makes sense, stick with it, let players get used to it, results will come eventually. Best of luck 

[Gee_Simpson]

3 hours ago, Santa Claus said:

I felt the same way, trust me. Because in previous FMs, when inevitably my tactic fails, I'd try downloaded plug-and-play one, which worked, but didn't bring me as near much enjoyment as when I made one myself. But this is different, really. No preset works perfectly, nothing is "carved-in-stone" so to speak. You need to adapt it based on players you have, strengths of your team, and opponent you are facing. Pick one style, load it, see what's happening. Take note of, for eg, how you lose possession - did your player lost the ball because his role tells him to dribble more? Or maybe he took a shot from distance? Maybe he didn't have viable option to pass to? Observe why his teammates weren't an option for pass - was their movement a problem or maybe simply their role and duty tells them to occupy different position on the pitch? Maybe passing range TI is problem - you have it set as short but there is no one near to receive the ball. Watch closely all those things, start a test save with random club, just to get feel for things. And remember, nothing works instantly, if you are feeling you are playing well and that system is good and it makes sense, stick with it, let players get used to it, results will come eventually. Best of luck 

Yeah I suppose so, none of those presets exploit the match engine either. Thanks for the advice mate, hopefully I can get something working

[Y2Jones]

Mini Update-

Would like to start by saying a huge thank you for all the feedback received on my first post, I feel very welcomed into the community. 

I have started the squad building post but work at Uni is piling up so that has to take priority, but it should be completed soon. I just wanted to give a tiny update on the continued success of the tactic, 2 seasons after I first created it.

Back to back to back league wins, the third being an invincible league win with only 2 draws. We didn't concede a league goal until January. The system improves as the players improve. We also remained invincible in all competitions.

Back to back Champions league wins, a treble last season and a quadruple the season just completed. I didn't anticipate just how successful this system would be.

The tactic itself is basically unchanged, but I do sometimes change during the match or for easier games to allow this boy to play.

The heir to Bongiovanni (hes probably already better than him) at 19 years old has been a revelation this year. Got him for £17.75 million from AC Milan. We would often switch to either a 4-4-1-1 with him behind the striker or play a 4-3-2-1 with him alongside Bongiovanni in attacking midfield. He also sometimes played out wide in the main system if we needed some ridiculous passing ability. 

 

Yeah it's gone fairly well. Once again I'l continue to work on the squad building post that will hopefully be completed soon, just wanted to show how successful the tactic has become over a three season period. 
Thanks for reading!

[Brian]

So.. there is still hope for me. 

[herne79]

7 hours ago, Y2Jones said:

I have started the squad building post but work at Uni is piling up so that has to take priority

Ahh those days when I was still new to the game and I also thought FM was a secondary priority .

[Y2Jones]

19 hours ago, herne79 said:

Ahh those days when I was still new to the game and I also thought FM was a secondary priority .

Don't know if I should be excited or terrified for the future then 

[Lira95]

Very inspiring thread, man. Are you still playing with Catania?

[wixxi]

Missed this post when it was first made and reading through it now was a joy

On 12/03/2019 at 18:31, Y2Jones said:

Like I said, this is not any revolutionary tactic and definitely took loads of inspiration from others. I'm not claiming it to be a fully self thought out tactic but it's my first one that I haven't directly taken from one source like for like, but added loads of ideas together to fit me and what I wanted to do, which started with a few basic ideas that I came up with, and as it moved on took inspiration from other ideas I had seen and wanted to try. It has been a real enjoyable learning process. I tried everything and kept aspects of things I liked, things that worked and things that fit my ideas.

You shouldn't worry about this, even the tactical mastermind that is Pep Guardiola has stated "Ideas belong to everyone and I have stolen as many as I could." learning from the likes of Cruijff, Bielsa and Juanma Lillo.

[Overmars]

On 18/03/2019 at 10:00, Y2Jones said:

Back to back to back league wins, the third being an invincible league win with only 2 draws. We didn't concede a league goal until January. The system improves as the players improve. We also remained invincible in all competitions.

Back to back Champions league wins, a treble last season and a quadruple the season just completed. I didn't anticipate just how successful this system would be.

These results feel a little too good to be true, especially for a club without an obvious talent advantage.

[fthy]

good job.how is squad?

[FMunderachiever]

I spend about a week writing down my tactical ideas and getting a good basis for how to achieve them....

 

And then i start to play matches and realise im as **** as i was 10 years ago.

[Y2Jones]

On 24/08/2019 at 19:30, Overmars said:

These results feel a little too good to be true, especially for a club without an obvious talent advantage.

 

On 25/08/2019 at 18:16, fthy said:

good job.how is squad?

Not sure what you want me to say or how it feels too good to be true considering unbeaten runs haven't been that uncommon on FM with the right tactic and players. I wouldn't say we have an obvious talent advantage but we definitely have talent. 2 or more very good players in each position minus a couple.

GKs

WBs


CBs

DMs

CMs

WMs

STs

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Y2Jones
Wrong pic

[loisvale]

@Y2Jones are there plans to do any more analysis? This was a great read and very interesting. Great to read an in-depth read of a tactic. You learn so much. Have developed my own 352 but always happy to pick things up. 

Would love to understand your thought process in matches more. What is the thinking behind moving LOE? I move it up when applying pressure or trying to keep attacking opponent at bay but lower it if coming up against a brick wall to try and get them to come out. Never tend to move defensive line from higher unless lots of balls going over the top which isn’t very often. 

I see that you sometimes move to a 4411. What is the thinking behind that and how is it constructed? Are there other formations you move to in a match? I sometimes move my DLP from the 3 man midfield in my 352 to AM which can be effective. Also CWB up to the wings if really needing to attack. 

From your thread you mention swapping defensive midfielder from Anchor man/defensive midfielder/half back  what is the thought process? Also what effects  does the situational PIs have on the match for your tactic?

Any info on any of the above would help my learning and hopefully can transfer some tips to my own tactic  

Great thread  well done. Great to see well thought out threads. I would lap up any more info and hope the thread isn’t finished  

 

[Y2Jones]

On 27/09/2019 at 21:23, loisvale said:

@Y2Jones are there plans to do any more analysis? This was a great read and very interesting. Great to read an in-depth read of a tactic. You learn so much. Have developed my own 352 but always happy to pick things up. 

Would love to understand your thought process in matches more. What is the thinking behind moving LOE? I move it up when applying pressure or trying to keep attacking opponent at bay but lower it if coming up against a brick wall to try and get them to come out. Never tend to move defensive line from higher unless lots of balls going over the top which isn’t very often. 

I see that you sometimes move to a 4411. What is the thinking behind that and how is it constructed? Are there other formations you move to in a match? I sometimes move my DLP from the 3 man midfield in my 352 to AM which can be effective. Also CWB up to the wings if really needing to attack. 

From your thread you mention swapping defensive midfielder from Anchor man/defensive midfielder/half back  what is the thought process? Also what effects  does the situational PIs have on the match for your tactic?

Any info on any of the above would help my learning and hopefully can transfer some tips to my own tactic  

Great thread  well done. Great to see well thought out threads. I would lap up any more info and hope the thread isn’t finished  

 

Thanks so much for the great response and I'm sorry with the delayed reply, been a tough view months with uni etc. 

You pretty much got in terms of LOE and D-line as it's what has become efficient for me to change the way we control space. Depending on opposition and momentum I will shift around right after goals quite a lot. Also once I think a game is done I usually drop LOE right down. Moving the d-line for me just depends on opposition passing and pace of my back line and their attackers.

The reasoning for the switch to a 4411 was to allow a wonder kid to get in the team and it allowed us even more flexibility. Its essentially the same set up although the AP is pushed behind the striker whilst the DM becomes CM on defend. our IWB also becomes less about attack and more about filling the space behind the midfield. I played a very similar formation in a Swansea save based upon Rodger's tactics from his time there so I take some inspiration from there also. 

The defensive midfielder in my opinion is what can make or break a side, and knowing how to deploy the kind of player you have available in the role is so important. We'd usually start with a DM-Su, as through testing I found this to be the most fluid of the roles available in terms of contributing to defence and link up. Many of my goals come from key passes from this role. I would switch to defend if coming up against a strong side or if there was quality playing in the hole that I had to deal with. Switching to anchor man only happened when I was either chasing a goal to allow my fullbacks to go further up the pitch, or to see out games under pressure and it rarely ever failed me. I never really ended up using half back as anchor man did a good enough job for what I needed situation-ally. The PI's are just there for me to try and change our attacks, exploit opposition space or to close out games.

Hope this helps, sorry once again for the long awaited response! 

For you and anyone else interested, I will be testing this tactic out on the FM2020 beta with Lazio this Friday on twitch if you are interested to see how it carries over and updates it may receive. Don't want this to sound like an advertisement or something but I have no idea where else to put this so if you fancy hearing me shout at artificial intelligence in a welsh accent then pop in https://www.twitch.tv/giles15_

 

[loisvale]

Would love to listen in but off to York for some frothy ones. Are you recording it?

Edited November 8, 2019 by loisvale

[loisvale]

Did you do your stream? How is your testing with Lazio going?

[loisvale]

Any news on how you are going with FM20?