Ageless question. Yes or no?

[darius9]

Downloading tactics is cheating or not? My whole life i've been creating some useless tactics and failing constantly in lower leagues of England, but when i download some tactics i feel i get some help i don't deserve. My conscience always wins above cheating and i end up deleting my save after season or two, cause i start to feel that it's not me who achieved back to back promotions, but some guy who created world beating tactics. On the other hand, it not fun to play in National conference north, stay there for 8 seasons and then get sacked because you didn't meet expectations. What your view? Please vote.

 

[Welshace]

How you play is up to you... you aren't affecting anyone else's enjoyment of the game.

 

If you feel bad using created tactics, I would suggest you stop doing so and learn to make your own...

 

Having a bunch of strangers vote to ease your guilt is probably the worst way of dealing with it...

[darius9]

8 minutes ago, Welshace said:

How you play is up to you... you aren't affecting anyone else's enjoyment of the game.

 

If you feel bad using created tactics, I would suggest you stop doing so and learn to make your own...

 

Having a bunch of strangers vote to ease your guilt is probably the worst way of dealing with it...

I think ill stick to creating my own, but just wanna know how everybody else deals with tactics

[Welshace]

I tend to do a bit of both depending on the situation ...

 

 if i'm trying something specific with my tactics, I will usually look into how others have achieved it and sometimes will download their tactic, and basically see how it works for myself and cater it for my own needs..

Essentially though, my feeling is that a tactic should be made to work specifically with your own team of players, and just downloading and not adjusting one seems counter productive.

[Garethjohn79]

As I like to play the game as realistically as possible then it is up to me to discover what tactic suits me best. I tend to carry on from my favourite tactic in the previous FM but as in real Football they evolve and can become redundant. I then work out what to do. My saves seem to follow a more natural development then most of the stories I see told here.  

My tactics tend to follow ones that I prefer. I am a student of Italian Football in the 90's and have never felt comfortable with attacking Football. Even if it's what succeeds in FM although, like real Football my FM tactics are hit and miss. They work well with some Clubs and fail horrendously with others. That is  Football isn't it?

I never visit the Tactic forum. If I fail, I fail that's Football.  To many want to storm to success and the majority of threads are by those who claim '' I played FM for years and this is the worst''. Translated as My tactics & squad building were brilliant and spot on before and now i'm losing the, games rubbish and it's not my fault. They've been found out the AI's better. In Football the Manager fails 90% of the time and gets sacked. If FM was true to the real world most would be out the door in the the first Six Months of a save.

My only visit's here are to see if there are any technical glitches with the game. And to have a laugh at the expense of those who take a Computer Game to seriously. I dread falling into a tactic thread by accident. It can ruin FM for me.

 

[Garethjohn79]

By downloading a Tactic you could in a way be playing another players game. Add copying squad building Is it then any longer your game?

If you get stuck on a game and then follow another way of getting through it, effectively that is them completing it for you.

If that's you Give me £30 I'll buy FM18 for myself and play it for you. 

[tinkerer]

How you play the game is up to you, you buy the game, you enjoy it the way you want. I don't really agree with 'cheating' but downloading tactic perhaps makes the game worthless. You are a football manager, you are supposed to manage the team. 

[wkdsoul]

Nah, i just assume my manager has gone to a FIFA conference and comeback with new ideas.

[Weston]

I never download tactics personally but I do pick up ideas from outside sources here and there and insert them into my own strategies just like any real life manager does. No man is an island impervious to the influence of what works (or doesn't) around them - Conte wasn't born in a vacuum - so I think there is a healthy balance to be struck. What that means to you is something only you can determine.

[RBKalle]

I honestly don't understand the "it's cheating" argument...

Unless you also download a shortlist and build a carbon-copy of the squad, it's even debatable a downloaded tactic is actually helpful... I mean, if you're managing in the Conference and download one of those "Barça supertactic" that require worldclass players in every position, is it gonna really work for you?

If using other people's tactics is "cheating", than even in real life, then 99.99% of football managers have based their careers on cheating

 

[Fer Fuchs Ake]

Personally, I would say yes. Each to their own and it's entirely up to you how you want to play so I wouldn't call someone out on it if they were using downloaded tactics.

It's certainly not as bad as using the editor to give all of your players 200PA or to give yourself a bottomless pit of money, however, you probably should design your own tactic if you are the manager.

The main reason I say that it is cheating is because some tactics that you can download are specifically designed to be exploit tactics which seek to take advantage of any weaknesses in the M.E. This just goes against the idea of going through the trial and error of developing a tactic in my opinion.

However, as I said earlier, it is predominantly a single player game and it won't affect anyone else whether you download a tactic, so if you feel that it is not cheating, then do it.

[Soninho]

4 hours ago, Weston said:

I never download tactics personally but I do pick up ideas from outside sources here and there and insert them into my own strategies just like any real life manager does. No man is an island impervious to the influence of what works (or doesn't) around them - Conte wasn't born in a vacuum - so I think there is a healthy balance to be struck. What that means to you is something only you can determine.

Agree 100% on everything!

Cheating to me is manipulating something in the game so you for example win every game or something like that..

Downloading a tactic is just timesaving imo.. I've never done it since I live micromanaging everything.

The editor is imo more "cheat" depending on how you use it.. But like other says: It's your game, go nuts!

[sipsi]

Do I download tactics? - No

Do I think it's cheating? - No

IRL I've seen many managers trying to convert their teams to specific gamestyles which was first used by other managers. 5-2-1-2 Brasil Perreira, Tiki Taka Guardiola, 4-3-3 Zeman...

So I wouldn't call this cheating in a simulation game.

On the other hand It's not fun to play downloaded tactics which would kill the gaming experience for me. It's much better to evolve your team and tactic by yourself experimenting and evolving.

[Guest]

It's not cheating, and that's a fact. Just check what the term "cheating" means. Using the editor to lower your opponents' stats would be cheating.

 

I don't and wouldn't download tactics. I don't see why anyone would do it: the point of the game is being or becoming a good manager, so it's up to you to come up with a good tactic. That's the whole point (or one of them) of the game. So, I think downloading tactics is just silly. But it's not cheating.

[Svenc]

Gonna be brief: I don't care an iota how you play the game and how you're calling that style unless you're trolling me with crap like this when you're playing online with me in the mix. When that happens: Bugger off, bitch. ;-)



Expect of that, more power to everyone! There is, however, a strong connection between downloading tactics and additionally frustration. It has been like that for years, which is why I don't know why SI at all officially support the Steam Workshops for this. Reasons of which:

- They can give the impression that the game were 100% about tactics, up to the point that you go all the way first season with Burnley (giving that impression that a difference in tactics would make the difference between a relegation struggle ..... and being Champions Of Engerland, with the same players), i.e. AI ME exploit tactics
- They can give the impression that there is little you could do to manage matches further, i.e. plug&play tactics, at which point you're on a completely different playing to field to any other manager (i.e. AI who is coded to firstly decide on an approach based on opposition, and then in-match also accordingly to the result, i.e. not pushing up like crazy when it's alread 2-0 up, etc.)
- They will lead to an increase of perceived randomness by definition as you haven't put it up yourself and can't say even in basic terms where to goals and assists may be coming from (actually some of the creators from my experience struggle with it, hence they often give bad advice on other areas on the game too, such as team talks, and more, and as some downloads are trial&error jobs, that's why you also see such much angst for game updates --- whilst the core rewarded by the game has been the same for ages, randomly pushing buttons may suffer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem )

Additionally, from my experience, few downloads are done by players who approach this from anything but a purely stats perspective. There is creative guy that actually watch the movement and space as it opens up. The majority doesn't. Expect to see matches where you have lots of possession and shots and drop points regularly, as to those guys it will never be apparent that giving the opposition the ball and not pressing like silly can and does actually open attacking space, visibly -- in the play, that is. This sounds mainly negative, but I'd much prefer it if SI would improve their feedback and stuff. The game tactically hardly is rocket science, unless you want to win stuff with Burnley first season. Impossibly without exploiting. If that's your thing, go for it (unless you're playing me online, see above). :-P

[Soninho]

This was actually brief for a post from you Svenc..! 😜

[Garethjohn79]

On 05/02/2017 at 11:47, sipsi said:

Do I download tactics? - No

Do I think it's cheating? - No

IRL I've seen many managers trying to convert their teams to specific gamestyles which was first used by other managers. 5-2-1-2 Brasil Perreira, Tiki Taka Guardiola, 4-3-3 Zeman...

So I wouldn't call this cheating in a simulation game.

On the other hand It's not fun to play downloaded tactics which would kill the gaming experience for me. It's much better to evolve your team and tactic by yourself experimenting and evolving.

 

If you just Download a tactic that is exploiting an FM weakness is that cheating?

If you just copy without having any understanding of what it is you are doing isn't that just using someone else's work to succeed?

Any manager IRL who succeeds with another Managers tactic still needs to understand it, translate it to his players and picture in his mind how it'll work. And not one Manager has exactly the same players in exactly the same condition as another.

 

[Garethjohn79]

7 hours ago, Svenc said:

Gonna be brief: I don't care an iota how you play the game and how you're calling that style unless you're trolling me with crap like this when you're playing online with me in the mix. When that happens: Bugger off, bitch. ;-)



Expect of that, more power to everyone! There is, however, a strong connection between downloading tactics and additionally frustration. It has been like that for years, which is why I don't know why SI at all officially support the Steam Workshops for this. Reasons of which:

- They can give the impression that the game were 100% about tactics, up to the point that you go all the way first season with Burnley (giving that impression that a difference in tactics would make the difference between a relegation struggle ..... and being Champions Of Engerland, with the same players), i.e. AI ME exploit tactics
- They can give the impression that there is little you could do to manage matches further, i.e. plug&play tactics, at which point you're on a completely different playing to field to any other manager (i.e. AI who is coded to firstly decide on an approach based on opposition, and then in-match also accordingly to the result, i.e. not pushing up like crazy when it's alread 2-0 up, etc.)
- They will lead to an increase of perceived randomness by definition as you haven't put it up yourself and can't say even in basic terms where to goals and assists may be coming from (actually some of the creators from my experience struggle with it, hence they often give bad advice on other areas on the game too, such as team talks, and more, and as some downloads are trial&error jobs, that's why you also see such much angst for game updates --- whilst the core rewarded by the game has been the same for ages, randomly pushing buttons may suffer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem )

Additionally, from my experience, few downloads are done by players who approach this from anything but a purely stats perspective. There is creative guy that actually watch the movement and space as it opens up. The majority doesn't. Expect to see matches where you have lots of possession and shots and drop points regularly, as to those guys it will never be apparent that giving the opposition the ball and not pressing like silly can and does actually open attacking space, visibly -- in the play, that is. This sounds mainly negative, but I'd much prefer it if SI would improve their feedback and stuff. The game tactically hardly is rocket science, unless you want to win stuff with Burnley first season. Impossibly without exploiting. If that's your thing, go for it (unless you're playing me online, see above). :-P

I wonder if we'll have and 18 Paragraph essay explaining the meaning of Brief?

[Gee_Simpson]

I voted 'yes' (hopefully a mod can remove my vote?) but on 2nd thoughts, I would say no it's not cheating, but it is pointless imo. I used to play that way but then I got bored and my wins didn't feel satisfying anymore. I felt as if my success wasn't down to me.

[westy8chimp]

downloading a tactic is a disadvantage as you have not grown with it organically to suit your team/players. You may have some initial success but when it goes wrong how can you possibly know why or what to change when you haven't yourself done the reasoning of why certain PI/TI work with the tactic. If you create and amend your own tactics over time you will find the sweet spot for your style and your players.

[Carninho]

i think some people need to go and take the time to read though the tactics forum before getting too judgemental

not everything is shared as a gamebreaker tactic, and people there put in a **** load of work to design tactics to simulate different managers and real life situations. 

[Cougar2010]

14 minutes ago, Carninho said:

i think some people need to go and take the time to read though the tactics forum before getting too judgemental

not everything is shared as a gamebreaker tactic, and people there put in a **** load of work to design tactics to simulate different managers and real life situations. 

Yes they do but they are still presenting a tactic as a black or white solution.

As I've said in other threads a "tactic" isn't a fixed, permanent set of options, its something which is flexible & adaptible that is changed & tweaked depending on the opposition, your players and the situation at that time.

[Garethjohn79]

17 minutes ago, Carninho said:

i think some people need to go and take the time to read though the tactics forum before getting too judgemental

not everything is shared as a gamebreaker tactic, and people there put in a **** load of work to design tactics to simulate different managers and real life situations. 

1

I consider that cheating too 

[Carninho]

20 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Yes they do but they are still presenting a tactic as a black or white solution.

As I've said in other threads a "tactic" isn't a fixed, permanent set of options, its something which is flexible & adaptible that is changed & tweaked depending on the opposition, your players and the situation at that time.

some do but not everyone, which is why i needed to say something

[Carninho]

16 minutes ago, Garethjohn79 said:

I consider that cheating too 

well then thats a shame for you to think that

 

 

[forameuss]

46 minutes ago, Carninho said:

i think some people need to go and take the time to get over themselves before getting too judgemental

Fixed that for you.

Anyone who gets het up about what someone else does in a single player game needs to get a grip.  similarly, anyone who does something in the game and worries what other people would think of it is in the same position.  Do what you like with your game, whatever gives you enjoyment.  If someone wants to edit so that every player they have has 200CA, go for it.  If they want to download a tactic that's essentially an instant win, go for it.  

[Carninho]

@forameuss 

[kempo]

Of course it is cheating. You would have not discovered these tactics otherwise, you gained it through information on the web.

[Soninho]

29 minutes ago, kempo said:

Of course it is cheating. You would have not discovered these tactics otherwise, you gained it through information on the web.

I hope you're joking..!

Is all the information on the web cheating in that case..?

[Cougar2010]

30 minutes ago, Soninho said:

I hope you're joking..!

Is all the information on the web cheating in that case..?

Depends on what info IMO.

Tactical theory and ideas I wouldn't class as cheating unless downloaded tactics exploit a specific weakness in the coding, which many have in the past.  Nowadays probably less so.

In terms of players, good players, hidden PAs, info directly relevant to FM then yes.  General info about real life players, less so but yes to a point.  Within a save you should make your judgements based on the information you have in the save.

[Carninho]

I AM A BIG CHEAT

I DOWNLOAD TACTICS

 shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame shame........

 

[forameuss]

I for one welcome our new CHEATING overlords given how much it seems to bother the joyless.

Imagine getting upset about how someone else plays their single player game 

[hm86]

I don't get to play it anywhere near as much as I'd love to, so I download a few tactics and see what works best with my team.

I'd love to have the time to mess about with it but when I do get time I just want to get on with the games and working out good signings etc.

[Garethjohn79]

If it's not cheating then it is certainly bone-idleness. ''You can't be bothered to work at something yourself'' So I will get someone else to do it for me!!

[Carninho]

4 minutes ago, Garethjohn79 said:

If it's not cheating then it is certainly bone-idleness. ''You can't be bothered to work at something yourself'' So I will get someone else to do it for me!!

bit personal, but then many of your posts on here are.

I hope they use your face on the FM18 box as you deserve to have your high moral code rewarded

[Halofon]

Everytime I download tactics when I am annoyed by losing. I win 2 - 3 matches, starting to feel wrong and undeserved.

After that I start with my own tactic and it is a fine feeling

[gibbo11]

I don't believe it is cheating because you still need the players with the correct attributes to make it work. Anyway, I've downloaded many a tactic which hasn't worked for me.

I do a mixture of both, I often download a tactic which is the idea of how I want to play, then tweak it to match my players' abilities or a certain aspect I would prefer to play than the style I downloaded. It's more of a kickstarter for me to find how I want to play, rather than plug in and play.

[Robsteren_DK]

1 hour ago, Garethjohn79 said:

If it's not cheating then it is certainly bone-idleness. ''You can't be bothered to work at something yourself'' So I will get someone else to do it for me!!

Hi Gartethjohn79,

I have been playing this game (CM/FM etc.) since 1994. As you can imagine my life has changed a bit since then, and I now have other obligations than my computer and FM.

Back in the day, I had time to create my own tactics, and I managed to put effort into it. Looking back too much perhaps.

Now a days, I have a family, so the time I can spend on the game is much more limited. I can average a few hours a week to enjoy the game. So I look at other tactics for inspiration and adapt my own style into them. 

So I can't actually be bothered to invent the wheel again, if someone has done it before me. Given the time I can spend on the game, I would much rather progress than start from scratch.

But I will not just download a plug and play tactic either. Or a ME exploit. As that is no fun.

So I wouldn't consider it cheating.

/Robsteren

[Soninho]

21 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Depends on what info IMO.

Tactical theory and ideas I wouldn't class as cheating unless downloaded tactics exploit a specific weakness in the coding, which many have in the past.  Nowadays probably less so.

In terms of players, good players, hidden PAs, info directly relevant to FM then yes.  General info about real life players, less so but yes to a point.  Within a save you should make your judgements based on the information you have in the save.

I understand what you are saying, but the casual player will probably not be as restricted as you describe.

I firmly believe real life managers use other than just their scouts to get information about players, tactics etc etc.. A real life manager might be using a tactic he learned at a coaching course or saw Dr Benjy use on youtube.... I'm also certain that I've read managers using FM as a scout tool, in that case is that cheating in real life..?

[Carninho]

37 minutes ago, Soninho said:

I understand what you are saying, but the casual player will probably not be as restricted as you describe.

I firmly believe real life managers use other than just their scouts to get information about players, tactics etc etc.. A real life manager might be using a tactic he learned at a coaching course or saw Dr Benjy use on youtube.... I'm also certain that I've read managers using FM as a scout tool, in that case is that cheating in real life..?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Ryan_(footballer) - Computer game Championship Manager played its part in Ryan's transfer. Utilising real-life statistical data, the game revealed to Ryan Molesworth, the son of Bristol Rovers scout Paul Molesworth, that Robbie Ryan's contract was expiring. Rovers then became interested in signing the player, which after negotiations, actually took place

[Soninho]

There you go! Thanks mate!

[Cougar2010]

1 hour ago, Soninho said:

I understand what you are saying, but the casual player will probably not be as restricted as you describe.

TBH I wouldn't class FM as a casual game and therefore it shouldn't really appeal to a casual player.

 

1 hour ago, Soninho said:

I firmly believe real life managers use other than just their scouts to get information about players, tactics etc etc.. A real life manager might be using a tactic he learned at a coaching course or saw Dr Benjy use on youtube.... I'm also certain that I've read managers using FM as a scout tool, in that case is that cheating in real life..?

FM is available in the real world therefore RL managers are using resources available to them.

Within a save you don't have the equivalent of "FM" and the tools available to you are scouts and the scouting options.

[louissiscool]

This is a simple one really, in real life unless you invent a new play style your tactic will have more or less been done so i see downloading tactics is probably similar.

If you consider this cheating is trying to play like peps barca or klopps dortmund cheating also? After all you didn't come up with those tactics yourself.

[Soninho]

10 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

TBH I wouldn't class FM as a casual game and therefore it shouldn't really appeal to a casual player.

 

FM is available in the real world therefore RL managers are using resources available to them.

Within a save you don't have the equivalent of "FM" and the tools available to you are scouts and the scouting options.

Well I see we have a slightly different view on FM but I consider it to be a simulation of real life management.. Therefore I use the T&T forum for tips and have in the past looked up great prospects etc on internet..

I have a couple of saves where I started in the lower leagues and relied on scouts and my staff but I believe the majority of players don't play the game this way..

As a comparisson to other games I look up certain stats on weapons in BF1 on websites and get tips of youtube how to get better. Other people do the same with other games and therefore I don't think it's a big deal in FM either, it's a game after all..

[Svenc]

Then again I don't think on BF1 you can have success without even doing anything yourself, barely spending a minute in front of the screen whilst the action rolls along.  Plus if you are past a certain age and reflexes and hand-eye coordination start diminishing, you might find you will never be up there anymore. Ditto the practice time fading that the mostly teenage/early twen boys playing such games have available. FM is the only game I have ever had in 30 years of computer gaming where you can give everything to assistants and be reasonably set, virtually holidaying. The game is as in-depth as you want it to be. Just because there is a tactics sub forum doesn't mean you need to analyze play hugely much. Just because you could scout virtually every competition in the world of football doesn't mean you need to. Personally I have never put much time into areas such as long-term youth development, tutoring and the like, in parts as my saves rarely go long-term...

 

23 hours ago, forameuss said:

I for one welcome our new CHEATING overlords given how much it seems to bother the joyless.

Imagine getting upset about how someone else plays their single player game 

 

Well said. Naturally, on FM Live this was a real problem. Imagine you were paying monthly fees and were getting rigged by guys that lol'ed all over your starlet side with poor sides, making a mockery of your efforts you had put in. Even if FM Live didn't have for instance "super tactics" (a few select guys  had proven you could counter all of them), the simple fact that things were perceived as such (and players had it experienced first-hand from previous releases)... or set piece exploits, huge issue. I think that was the first time SI realized how their games were played, and this time, unlike the offline thingie, it hurt. Let's be real though, in competitive multiplayer, it is a natural tendency to get any advantage over your peers as can... it wasn't the player's fault, it was the game's fault. One of the reasons why there likely won't be a similar project for some time to come. I wonder how that Korea MMO is doing!

 

[knap]

In view of the massive amount of interest in Korea and China in download tactics, it will probably be the battle of the downloads.

[shirajzl]

23 hours ago, forameuss said:

Imagine getting upset about how someone else plays their single player game 

Exactly. This is the epitome of what kind of a shi*hole the Internet can be. People telling others what's the "right", "proper" way to play their single player game is something that boggles my mind on a regular basis, i.e. whenever I spot such forum post, YT comment etc.

 

[Cougar2010]

4 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Exactly. This is the epitome of what kind of a shi*hole the Internet can be. People telling others what's the "right", "proper" way to play their single player game is something that boggles my mind on a regular basis, i.e. whenever I spot such forum post, YT comment etc.

 

The discussion has been done before and I'm pretty sure forameuss is aware of that.

While people keep banging the same drum that its a single player game its doesn't take away the fact that how some people play affects others either directly or indirectly even if its unintentional.

If you play and keep everything to yourself thats fine but as soon as information is shared it makes a difference and leads to misinformation, misunderstanding & gives a false impression of the game.  You just have to look at the leaderboards to see a very obvious example of that.

[shirajzl]

3 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

The discussion has been done before and I'm pretty sure forameuss is aware of that.

While people keep banging the same drum that its a single player game its doesn't take away the fact that how some people play affects others either directly or indirectly even if its unintentional.

If you play and keep everything to yourself thats fine but as soon as information is shared it makes a difference and leads to misinformation, misunderstanding & gives a false impression of the game.  You just have to look at the leaderboards to see a very obvious example of that.

I'd agree with you only in cases when someone is presenting himself as a super skillful FM players via blog/YT/social media while going out of his way to conceal the fact he's using a downloaded tactic.

Otherwise, if someone is, let's say writing a forum story about his FM save and is enjoying the process (and using a downloaded tactic), I see no harm because you can either enjoy the story, too, or not read it at all. We have a choice of consuming the content we (dis)like. 

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

The discussion has been done before and I'm pretty sure forameuss is aware of that.

While people keep banging the same drum that its a single player game its doesn't take away the fact that how some people play affects others either directly or indirectly even if its unintentional.

If you play and keep everything to yourself thats fine but as soon as information is shared it makes a difference and leads to misinformation, misunderstanding & gives a false impression of the game.  You just have to look at the leaderboards to see a very obvious example of that.

You're worrying about the leaderboards now?  The notoriously and obviously broken pit that most probably don't even know exists, let alone pay attention to?  

Again, not really sure how any of that affects you personally.  Just seem to be throwing up your knitting and getting all Helen Lovejoy at the thought of someone, somewhere looking at a version of the game that you believe is wrong.  Nice that you're white-knighting like that, but I think people can think for themselves without you worrying about how they're going to react.  I said if you're worrying about how other people are playing a single player game, you need to get a bit of perspective, but if you're now worrying about what other people think about how someone completely different is playing the game, then you're really taking it to another level.

Lighten up, honestly.