Mikal Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Ahh yes you're right. I've never noticed it before because FM seems to think this information is not needed and cuts it off when in windowed mode. When I restore the screen it's then visible (even though I can't see the bottom 3 options). But I am 5 coaches over the 8 advised (for "coaches") but under on the rest so I'll do a bit of re-shuffling. Is this a new feature then because presumably they would have cancelled more of my coaches before had it not been? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Yeah not really a new feature but changed it to make it more realistic. As I like many used to just hire 10 generic coaches and it was easy to obtain amazing coaching ratings. Now you need to think a little and it's harder to obtain the amazing coaching stars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 anyone else having trouble now with team talks? is this, as it is with the scouting, because your rep means you have to work hard and achieve to win people over??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 That is exactly it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 That is exactly it. unless, of course, you edit some fan loyalty, temperament, patience in the editor, plus club morale, plus chairman patience and ambition;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 When I go onto transfer history to check former players say youth teamers when I go back from their profile it always goes back to 'All Transfers' instead of 'Youth Intake' which is a bit of annoyance if you want to go and look at how a couple of them are doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Jamie King Posted December 23, 2011 SI Staff Share Posted December 23, 2011 When I go onto transfer history to check former players say youth teamers when I go back from their profile it always goes back to 'All Transfers' instead of 'Youth Intake' which is a bit of annoyance if you want to go and look at how a couple of them are doing. Hey Matt, it's an issue that has been raised and is being looked into. Thanks for bringing it up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezzler Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 In regards to the teamtalks i found this posted on the general section of the forum. I have used it in five games and i am suprised to say that it is working fine, could this just be some kind of bug? The reason being is i am playing as Wycombe who have just got promoted to the championship, i have a small wage and transfer budget compared to the other teams,but find myself in 2nd place and beating teams who are on paper much better than me Hi guys, in the last FM11 game i finally did the team talks myself and worked out a system based on scoreline of which talk to give and got positive results back everytime so i was wandering to myself how would i go with the new tone system in team talks and i have worked out you only need to use 3 tones during the match. Pre game team talk : choose the "ASSERTIVE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback mostly green if not all by players. Half-time talk: this is based on how the score is if you are drawing or behind you give "AGGRESIVE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players. if we are winning you give "PASSIONATE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players. Full time: once again based on scoreline if Drawn or behind you give "AGGRESIVE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players, if we win you give "PASSIONATE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players. with these team talks my players morale improves and they all are revved up for the whole year and my performances are great by the team morale is always in the green if not superb for most of the side. have tested with a wide range of teams and currently using my system for Rotherham and i am leading the league by 1 pt halfway through the season even though i am 1.4million in debt and can only get free players to sign as no transfer money, currently in Npower league 1 at the moment. hope these work for you guys if you decide to have a go with them. cheers, mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick B Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Too many people on here moan about the morale changes in 12.1.0 without actually playing the game for a while. They just like to be able to pick a team, click continue and win. Whats the point in that? The game has to be challenging or its pointless playing. If you want the game to be easy..just give yourself a higher reputation. Thats the purpose of the patch..to make the game realistic! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 In regards to the teamtalks i found this posted on the general section of the forum. I have used it in five games and i am suprised to say that it is working fine, could this just be some kind of bug? The reason being is i am playing as Wycombe who have just got promoted to the championship, i have a small wage and transfer budget compared to the other teams,but find myself in 2nd place and beating teams who are on paper much better than me Hi guys, in the last FM11 game i finally did the team talks myself and worked out a system based on scoreline of which talk to give and got positive results back everytime so i was wandering to myself how would i go with the new tone system in team talks and i have worked out you only need to use 3 tones during the match. Pre game team talk : choose the "ASSERTIVE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback mostly green if not all by players. Half-time talk: this is based on how the score is if you are drawing or behind you give "AGGRESIVE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players. if we are winning you give "PASSIONATE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players. Full time: once again based on scoreline if Drawn or behind you give "AGGRESIVE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players, if we win you give "PASSIONATE" tone and choose the last option always get positive feedback from players mostly green if not all by players. with these team talks my players morale improves and they all are revved up for the whole year and my performances are great by the team morale is always in the green if not superb for most of the side. have tested with a wide range of teams and currently using my system for Rotherham and i am leading the league by 1 pt halfway through the season even though i am 1.4million in debt and can only get free players to sign as no transfer money, currently in Npower league 1 at the moment. hope these work for you guys if you decide to have a go with them. cheers, mike If you speak with an aggressive tone to players who don't respect you, they will ignore you at best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 too many people on here moan about the morale changes in 12.1.0 without actually playing the game for a while. They just like to be able to pick a team, click continue and win. Whats the point in that? The game has to be challenging or its pointless playing. If you want the game to be easy..just give yourself a higher reputation. Thats the purpose of the patch..to make the game realistic! totally agree. I *want* a low rep because that's what i'd have irl. I want to challenge myself with regards scouting, teamtalks etc and not have it easy! Want to prove the doubters that i can build a cohesive team and tactics! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorsmen Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 My only gripe with the patch is it's crashing all the time when i click on my coaches, i thought 12.1.1 was supposed to fix that :s other then that i'm loving the game, just want the crashes to stop otherwise i'm going to lose all my coaches, again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuSS Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Has the opposition instructions bug been brought up in this thread - it's hugely annoying. Posted in the bug forum: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/292754-12.1.1-OI-s-being-applied-automatically-by-the-game?p=7429288#post7429288 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenw Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Great patch. Just want to say thanks to SI for finding a way to fix the Belgium work permit bug. The only problem is that it resets the count if the players were in belgium in the seasons before the patch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vurogj Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I don't know if it's a new feature, but it's something I've only spotted recently. My assistant's Squad Depth page is showing his opinion of my squad INCLUDING confirmed future transfers. This is an extremely clever little thing that impresses me, and makes finding the weaknesses in next season's squad a little easier. Thank you SI for this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFu@kula Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 How do i download it? My steam doesn't do anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt ex SEGA Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 The patch, or the game? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyki Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 no matter what team talk i use i will get either no body language specific or a few player get switch off. so far i have even get a single green outcome on a player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFu@kula Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 The patch, or the game? I've the game installed its just that patch. I only bought it in the last few days so havent the other ones either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted December 25, 2011 Author Administrators Share Posted December 25, 2011 Check in your in-game preferences for the version number, there's no new database so when you start a game it'll be 12.0. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mihoci Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I can't believe it...how wrong you do your job. How can you put update with team talk bug??? I won in away game 2-1 and i said to my boys that i am happy, but 2 players seemed witched off, the rest non reaction... WTF?????????? Please explain how this can be possible????????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vurogj Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Their personalities, your reputation, the pre-game expectations, many other factors... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigman Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 not enjoying the game with the new patch, i have less time to play and don't enjoy having no effect on player morale or the coach limit effecting my training i play this game for fun, not for frustration yet again si pandering to the boastful idiots on here saying the game is 'too easy' when i felt the balance was reasonable before, now it is no fun to me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 not enjoying the game with the new patch, i have less time to play and don't enjoy having no effect on player morale or the coach limit effecting my trainingi play this game for fun, not for frustration yet again si pandering to the boastful idiots on here saying the game is 'too easy' when i felt the balance was reasonable before, now it is no fun to me Correct they have taken all the fun out of it, I was happy that they fixed most of the bugs but then we have the morale bug it's a total joke. I am a world class manager cleaned up domestically for last 5 years I have a team of superstars was on a 52 game unbeaten run and since the patch I can't win to save myself getten beat by crap to ME the game is unplayable as it takes the enjoyment out of it thanks again SI great job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMan Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Correct they have taken all the fun out of it, I was happy that they fixed most of the bugs but then we have the morale bug it's a total joke. I am a world class manager cleaned up domestically for last 5 years I have a team of superstars was on a 52 game unbeaten run and since the patch I can't win to save myself getten beat by crap to ME the game is unplayable as it takes the enjoyment out of it thanks again SI great job. And you dont think a 52 match unbeaten run could have been aided by a bug with morale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFu@kula Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Correct they have taken all the fun out of it, I was happy that they fixed most of the bugs but then we have the morale bug it's a total joke. I am a world class manager cleaned up domestically for last 5 years I have a team of superstars was on a 52 game unbeaten run and since the patch I can't win to save myself getten beat by crap to ME the game is unplayable as it takes the enjoyment out of it thanks again SI great job. Oh Really? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Oh Really? What you mean oh really?? I am world class in the game or you making a smart ass comment?? Also for someone who doesn't know if a patch is downloaded and has just purchased the game and doesn't know what it was like before the patch I have no interest in your opinion thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 And you dont think a 52 match unbeaten run could have been aided by a bug with morale Of course your right I'm wrong isn't that how it goes on here? And no there was nothing wring with the morale in the first place and they changed it to make ot harder didnt they not or am I missing something here do you know it was a bug in the first place? If so please tell me where SI have said it was a bug? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Of course your right I'm wrong isn't that how it goes on here? And no there was nothing wring with the morale in the first place and they changed it to make ot harder didnt they not or am I missing something here do you know it was a bug in the first place? If so please tell me where SI have said it was a bug? http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/283877-FM2012-difficulty. all in here, it was discussed for about 6 weeks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/283877-FM2012-difficulty.all in here, it was discussed for about 6 weeks Means nothing to me because a few folk say its too easy plenty more people have said it was just about right it wasn't a bug and ot was wrong to make ot harder by changing morale I don't care anyway the enjoyment I had in the game has gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Means nothing to me because a few folk say its too easy plenty more people have said it was just about right it wasn't a bug and ot was wrong to make ot harder by changing morale I don't care anyway the enjoyment I had in the game has gone. I didnt side with them but it was a lot more than a few folk, and the evidence they actually submitted was pretty hard to ignore. Given the speed you replied at i assume you didnt read through the thread. Shame really, it would have given you a much better insight into why the changes were made Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFu@kula Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 They shouldnt listen to idiots on the INTERNET. You go on to any game site and its full of ''OMG this game sucks you ruined it OMG'' I mean alot of things in this patch where put in off the back of people complaining. Football genius's like me will always master it. Forget the whining noobs. If they are going to be listening to them they will be releasing a patch every day. Just release as intended fix bugs and update transfers. The special ones will be special and the craps ones will be crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aim_Less Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Assist managers need to get fixed they are useless on team talks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jascko Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Assist managers need to get fixed they are useless on team talks Totaly agree. They are useless in general, not only in relation to the team talks. I never employ AssMan, is totaly waste of many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowglee1 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Not being able to adjust your wage/transfer budget freely can render the game unplayable at points. Ridiculous. The coach allocation changes feel arbitrary and artificial. Surely, imposing a cost in performance on coaches when they train both youth and senior players would have made more sense. The whole backroom staff recruitment system ought to be overhauled. It makes no sense that a first team coach will never be interested in another coaching role irrespective of the club stature and salary, in addition to the fact that staff can never be demoted, which is just silly. Motivating and player interactions ought to be simplified perhaps in the model of a game like LA Noire, where you essentially have three clear options to choose from to respond to the situation presented, rather than about 50 vague ones. This is a football match, not a police investigation. Contract negotiation is a complete drag. Whoever designed it forgot this is meant to be a game, not a test of anal retentiveness. Attributes for non-playing staff ought to be highlighted as they are among playing staff, there's no point being cryptic about it just to conceal the fact that the best staff are easy to acquire. Why not focus on streamlining the game rather than focusing on superficial changes that restrict the game? For instance when selling or loaning player, after you decide to renegotiate an offer what is the point of receiving a new offer from the same club that has to be actioned, when it is identical to the terms you negotiated before? It's unneccessary padding that just slows the game down and makes the whole process a grind when you have to repeat it each transfer window. Additionally, often you have to send a group of players ought on loan. Why can't you request a specific loan length from the outset instead of being bogged down in about 50 individual negotiations once interested clubs make their offers. It's so aggravating switching about 50 loan offers from three month lengths to season-long, particularly when its been repeated for more than 5 installments of the game now! I'm starting to think this is a conspiracy to give me and fellow FM players carpal tunnel syndrome. Ridiculous! BTW SI, we have keyboards! Let us use them! Why can't we type in an amount in contract negotiations rather than incessantly tapping our mice to toggle unneccesarily slowly between amounts? And neither we nor our mice enjoy the process, so why does everything have to be a grind? Positional training ought to be improved. Its a joke that players like Milner can go from being wide players to being a natural central midfielders in between installments of the game, but the in-game process requires indefinite training season after season, that is unless you want the nasty surprise of seeing all that progress lost in spite of regularly fielding the player in that role. This latest patch feels like you guys at SI decided not to bother testing the game for yourselves, instead treating the players like guinea pigs with an automatic update, equivalent of remotely sabotaging my game. You changed things that weren't especially bothersome to begin with, in the process inventing new problems. The inability to adjust budgets in particular has to be fixed, the one thing I've always loved about Football Manager is the huge database of players that provide a myriad of possibilities when building a team, having to autistically clear one set of transfers at a time before being able to adjust your budget saps all the fun from playing the transfer market. At least give us the option of choosing between updates as in last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I didnt side with them but it was a lot more than a few folk, and the evidence they actually submitted was pretty hard to ignore. Given the speed you replied at i assume you didnt read through the thread. Shame really, it would have given you a much better insight into why the changes were made I couldn't be bothered reading thru I had more important things to do the day, it's pointless even reading thru it as some people have different opinions so not everyone will agree with eachother or it would be boring end of the day it's ruined my game experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugsgalore Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 They shouldnt listen to idiots on the INTERNET. You go on to any game site and its full of ''OMG this game sucks you ruined it OMG'' I mean alot of things in this patch where put in off the back of people complaining.Football genius's like me will always master it. Forget the whining noobs. If they are going to be listening to them they will be releasing a patch every day. Just release as intended fix bugs and update transfers. The special ones will be special and the craps ones will be crap. Lol I think you have a problem with that tiny brain of yours, are the idiots you say not allowed a opinion?? Will we just pay our money and just get on with it?? I have given my feed back and this is what this thead is for if you can't come up with constructive opinions instead of slagging people off don't reply to them but of course your the special one who doesn't know if a patch has been downloaded your the man keep it up :-) over and out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie Wooster Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Before patch: Ive got the best 3 strikers in the league, im the first 7 games of the season they get 23 between them. After patch: 2 Goals in 11 games. They have however scored 18 goals which were ruled offside, 7 goals which were ruled as fouls and hit the woodwork innumerable times. Ive never been this frustrated with a fm patch before. My central defenders are my top scorers. Ive been on this save for over 4 days but im so tempted to delete it and then uninstall FM. Absolutely terrible. Please please fix this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted December 25, 2011 Author Administrators Share Posted December 25, 2011 Morale changes occur both for you an AI mangers do you're all in the same boat. As has been explained elsewhere, some tactics rely heavily on very strong morale - the changes have made the game more realistic - rather than have one tactic and press continue for an entire season you have to make tactical changes, use opposition instructions and actually 'manage' the players with interaction/team meetings.Before once you got on a good run with supeb morale it was almost impossible to get knocked out of it. Likewise hit a losing streak and without a fair bit of luck you'll be out of a job before long. Now there's most certainly a more even balance and a 'good' morale is the norm as opposed to superb.Any manage who is struggling post 12.1.1 - what have you true to do to halt the bad run? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowglee1 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Morale changes occur both for you an AI mangers do you're all in the same boat. As has been explained elsewhere, some tactics rely heavily on very strong morale - the changes have made the game more realistic - rather than have one tactic and press continue for an entire season you have to make tactical changes, use opposition instructions and actually 'manage' the players with interaction/team meetings.Before once you got on a good run with supeb morale it was almost impossible to get knocked out of it. Likewise hit a losing streak and without a fair bit of luck you'll be out of a job before long. Now there's most certainly a more even balance and a 'good' morale is the norm as opposed to superb.Any manage who is struggling post 12.1.1 - what have you true to do to halt the bad run? That's all good and well Neil, but do you think the player interaction interface deserves the prominence into which you guys at SI have forced it? Have you guys at SI stopped and considered whether it is even a 'fun' component in the game? Btw The myriad of options in terms of comments and tone will not be mistaken for depth, rather it just seems a bit pretentious. Just look at the depth conveyed in games like LA Noire and you go through the game choosing between only 3 variations of tone. Please address the inflexibility that was introduced to adjusting the wage/transfer budget when deals are pending. For many like me, Football Manager's greatest charm is it's huge database and the fun of dabbling in the transfer market to build teams. Putting limitations on this by being essentially frozen out of transfer deals while deals are pending hides the games biggest asset (it's incredibly detailed catalogue of players) under a bushel. Many of the other changes brought about by this update I can take or leave, BUT the game desperately needs a bit of streamlining as I've mentioned in previous posts, there is way to much unnecessary padding that seems to only serve the purpose of slowing the game down. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityAndColour Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Why am I playing teams down in and near the relegation zone with 'very good' and 'superb' morale across the board? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lehteck Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Update my fm2012 for 12.1.1, but i still cant get those epl awards, such as player of the month, manager of the month. Any idea? Thanks for the help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragingsheep Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Have a save from before the latest patch. In it, Capello just retired after the 2014 WC in Brazil and I tried applying for the England manager's job. My achievements in game include 3 Premier League titles, 1 Champions League trophy, 2 FA Cups and 1 Carling Cup with World Class reputation but my application was quite literally laughed off by the FA. It might be because I have no English nationality but then again, they gave the job the Mancini so that's not it (he also has a worse reputation). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikaman Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Anyone else notice that the 'one-year' contract extension clause after a certain number of games has disappeared from the contract negotiations? I've seen the odd agent demand it in the contract (specially for older players), but as the manager I am not able to initiate it at all. Was this removed? (Sorry, I managed to slog through the first 4 pages of this thread, but just got tired and posted. Sorry if this has been answered before) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekker2 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Why am I playing teams down in and near the relegation zone with 'very good' and 'superb' morale across the board? It's not that implausible. Lots of relegation-bound teams have a good spirit about them, especially if they were never expected to do well anyway. Blackburn may be in the doldrums, but a team like Wigan are always liable to pull off an upset or two every season, because they all seem to really like their manager, and although they go through slumps, their heads never seem to drop for too long. Blackpool last season seemed to have a decent spirit about them even when the wins dried up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinlhk Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 surely made the game worse. you should consider undone the update. just stupid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted December 26, 2011 SI Staff Share Posted December 26, 2011 We feel it has made it better, as the morale was a bit bugged pre 12.1. It shouldn't be that hard to re-adjust things if your tactic was previously reliant on superb morale. Just a matter of using logic and patience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paganizer Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 First off - I'm not saying there wasn't a problem with morale before the recent patch. I did have a run of 30+ games scoring goals in every match. However something seems to be wrong now. I'm not even sure it has anything to do with morale... This is before the patch - as you can see I'm doing fine: This is after patch - can't score goals anymore: Now before you say this is because my team-morale must have gone to pathetic by now, then take a look at the morale of my squad... I haven't changed the way I play and I'm not playing with just one tactic. I use 3 different tactics to counter the opponent formations. All of them seem to be broken, or rather my players seem to be broken, cause they can't score anymore. It's a bit frustrating to say the least. Anyone able to shed some light on this problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
judicious Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 There is defo something wrong with morale, suddenly my morale has gone to very poor and I can't get a win anywhere! Load of crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Welsh Lad Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 The word form SI is that elements of morale was broken before the patch and now fixed tactics that were brilliant before might now need tweaking because they relied on Superb morale and now Superb morale is now harder to achieve. Before the update Superb was classed has the norm but now Good is the norm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.