Match 21: England vs Scotland - 8pm (BST) ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY

[Tikka Mezzala]

4 hours ago, StevehFC said:

Shame he's not got the arms outstretched 

[EnterUsernameHere]

Love Scotland  

[EnterUsernameHere]

God I love the tartan army!

[Tikka Mezzala]

Seen the big Scotland chances yesterday in my dreams. Can't believe I'm regretting the fact we only managed a point! 

Watching those players give everything yesterday was an incredible feeling. When the ball was stuck in the six yard box towards the end, hearts were in mouths, and then big John McGinn comes in and kicks it to ****! Relief! But also appreciation for a guy who was everywhere at once yesterday. 

I know that the general view down south will be about how bad England were, and if only they'd played x, y, and z, but I don't think there's much any of those guys on the bench would have changed. Scotland were a goal away from perfection. It was an incredible effort from everyone, from the much criticised O'Donnell, to our Aussie bruiser Dykes. Not many teams would have gotten past us yesterday. It'll be so hard to keep those levels up, but we must if we wish to make the point gained count for something greater. 

 

[Citizen Sandman]

Luke Shaw the only player who fizzed it forward 

[VamPook]

 

[Peterj]

@Rob1981 is spot on in this thread. The group stages are always like this and the tournaments where England have done well have often seen poor performances at the start. If you think today was bad it has nothing on the 1-1 draw with Ireland in 1990, which is quite possibly the worst game of football I have ever seen. All that matters right now is getting through and teams with slow starts tend to grow in international tournaments. Quite honestly I will take another turgid draw against the Czech Republic if that sees us play the group E runner up , rather than the runner up from the much tougher group F, all day long.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Peterj

[Wiggins Top Boys]

The winner of group F will still be waiting for us in the quarter finals so what's the difference?

[VP.]

2 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

The winner of group F will still be waiting for us in the quarter finals so what's the difference?

Plus we stay at home in the next round and then possibly/probably play Spain in Rome for the quarter finals, makes zero sense finishing 2nd where we will have to travel to Denmark (Sweden/Slovakia/Poland) for the last 16 and then Russia for the quarters and get thrashed by France.

[skybluedave]

Boy what a night. Pub was full of Scottish fans and the atmosphere was crazy. Shame the game (from my limited memory) was turd.

I have the worst hangover. Fell asleep on train and woke up in deepest darkest Kent and had to get an uber home. My last real memory is stupidly trying to break up a fight outside Victoria station.

No comments on the game (I dont remember it, probably a good thing) but the Scottish fans down here were amazing. By the end we were hugging and loving each other. I met a Ross County fan ffs. 

[Tikka Mezzala]

Now for the hard part... the clean up.

[Carambau]

11 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

German fans still having PTSD flashbacks? 

Im not a fan of Germany...the times of being a fan of a country have long gone, since I´ve been in my early 20s I think when I still thought patriotism mattered somehow at all... However, I like Scotland and Russia because I like to see underdogs do well and maybe cause some upsets which would make the tournament more interesting.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Carambau

[EnterUsernameHere]

50 minutes ago, Peterj said:

@Rob1981 is spot on in this thread. The group stages are always like this and the tournaments where England have done well have often seen poor performances at the start. If you think today was bad it has nothing on the 1-1 draw with Ireland in 1990, which is quite possibly the worst game of football I have ever seen. All that matters right now is getting through and teams with slow starts tend to grow in international tournaments. Quite honestly I will take another turgid draw against the Czech Republic if that sees us play the group E runner up , rather than the runner up from the much tougher group F, all day long.

I'm nearly banging my head on the wall here...

You can't just disregard performances. Did you play well? No. Did you concede a lot of chances? Yes.

It's absolutely stunning that England think they can both stop whoever they get in the knockouts from having a chance* AND get enough changes to score themselves.

*Could ********* it.

[Rob1981]

Christ are we still going on this? International tournaments are littered with teams that have won it or got to the final with a couple of terrible performances along the way.

We were rubbish last night but that doesn’t mean we can’t still beat a top team on our day. Are we favourites ahead of France, Belgium, Italy? No, but we weren’t anyway. Are we still in that second tier of teams that could stumble through to the final with 1-2 standout performances and a kind draw? Obviously yes.

Don’t know why people are so desperate for an inquest when we are only two games in. Let’s not forget the Scotland boys have just turned in one of the results of their lives. We will have forgotten last night’s game in a weeks’ time, they will be talking about it for years. Let’s give them a bit of credit as well please.

[EnterUsernameHere]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Christ are we still going on this? International tournaments are littered with teams that have won it or got to the final with a couple of terrible performances along the way.

We were rubbish last night but that doesn’t mean we can’t still beat a top team on our day. Are we favourites ahead of France, Belgium, Italy? No, but we weren’t anyway. Are we still in that second tier of teams that could stumble through to the final with 1-2 standout performances and a kind draw? Obviously yes.

Don’t know why people are so desperate for an inquest when we are only two games in. Let’s not forget the Scotland boys have just turned in one of the results of their lives. We will have forgotten last night’s game in a weeks’ time, they will be talking about it for years. Let’s give them a bit of credit as well please.

Well you were though...somehow.

Give them a bit of credit? That's hilarious, you just had a stupid dig and used them to support your country in the same sentence.

Edited June 19, 2021 by EnterUsernameHere

[dafuge]

We've gone from 2nd favourites at 5/1 to 4th favourites at 7/1 (Belgium and Italy are the two that have jumped ahead).

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Give them a bit of credit? That's hilarious, you just had a stupid dig and used them to support your country in the same sentence.

It will be a famous result for them and they played really well. Not sure how else to say it.

[Confused Clarity]

Just saw this and wanted to share to see what others think.

Raph Honigstein laments Sancho not getting on yesterday and Matt Scott responded to him.

 

 

As a neutral, reading all that, I find myself thinking  "wtf is wrong with Matt Scott?" But would be interested if others view it in the same way or not.

 

[EnterUsernameHere]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

It will be a famous result for them and they played really well. Not sure how else to say it.

England fans have been giving it the big one, celebrating Gazza's goal all week. And you think Scotland find it a famous draw?

[Peterj]

17 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

I'm nearly banging my head on the wall here...

You can't just disregard performances. Did you play well? No. Did you concede a lot of chances? Yes.

It's absolutely stunning that England think they can both stop whoever they get in the knockouts from having a chance* AND get enough changes to score themselves.

*Could ********* it.

There’s way too much bed wetting from England fans over one mediocre performance (and we were hardly played off the park and had a couple of presentable chances ourselves). This is what tournament football is like and everyone here was good enough and organised enough to get results. Nobody is going to roll over and England is a second tier team lacking in world class creative talent. We have an outside chance and are advantaged by playing at home but we just aren’t a side capable of blowing teams away. It wasn’t the greatest performance and we were below par , but every tournament winner has games like this and throwing our hands up and despairing over one poor performance in a game we didn’t even lose is an over reaction.

[EnterUsernameHere]

3 minutes ago, Confused Clarity said:

Just saw this and wanted to share to see what others think.

Raph Honigstein laments Sancho not getting on yesterday and Matt Scott responded to him.

 

 

As a neutral, reading all that, I find myself thinking  "wtf is wrong with Matt Scott?" But would be interested if others view it in the same way or not.

 

Matt Scott has had a nightmare there. 

[Confused Clarity]

1 minute ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Matt Scott has had a nightmare there. 

Felt like he was one tweet short of saying "well, who won the war Raph?"

Edited June 19, 2021 by Confused Clarity

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

England fans have been giving it the big one, celebrating Gazza's goal all week. And you think Scotland find it a famous draw?

Deep down most Scotland fans expected to lose and probably would have gone out. Now they are in a decent position and have set themselves up to qualify if they win a home game at Hampden. And they did it at Wembley where they hadn’t won in 20-odd years. If that’s not a famous draw for them I don’t know what is.

[EnterUsernameHere]

1 minute ago, Peterj said:

There’s way too much bed wetting from England fans over one mediocre performance (and we were hardly played off the park and had a couple of presentable chances ourselves). This is what tournament football is like and everyone here was good enough and organised enough to get results. Nobody is going to roll over and England is a second tier team lacking in world class creative talent. We have an outside chance and are advantaged by playing at home but we just aren’t a side capable of blowing teams away. It wasn’t the greatest performance and we were below par , but every tournament winner has games like this and throwing our hands up and despairing over one poor performance in a game we didn’t even lose is an over reaction.

Tell me a team that has won it with such a poor defensive base or lack of tactical plan. I'll concede if you can. 

[Peterj]

btw Scotland completely matched England in 1996 as well and could consider themselves unlucky to lose. These games have always been difficult and cagey affairs.

[EnterUsernameHere]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

Deep down most Scotland fans expected to lose and probably would have gone out. Now they are in a decent position and have set themselves up to qualify if they win a home game at Hampden. And they did it at Wembley where they hadn’t won in 20-odd years. If that’s not a famous draw for them I don’t know what is.

It's a good result for them, although on balance a win wouldn't have been undeserved.

Pretty condescending all the same. Aren't you the guy who thinks England can decide whether they finish 1st or 2nd as if you have that much control in games?

[EnterUsernameHere]

26 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Christ are we still going on this? International tournaments are littered with teams that have won it or got to the final with a couple of terrible performances along the way.

We were rubbish last night but that doesn’t mean we can’t still beat a top team on our day. Are we favourites ahead of France, Belgium, Italy? No, but we weren’t anyway. Are we still in that second tier of teams that could stumble through to the final with 1-2 standout performances and a kind draw? Obviously yes.

Don’t know why people are so desperate for an inquest when we are only two games in. Let’s not forget the Scotland boys have just turned in one of the results of their lives. We will have forgotten last night’s game in a weeks’ time, they will be talking about it for years. Let’s give them a bit of credit as well please.

To add a bit more...

My word. No one is saying England can't win it. Theres a lot of justified criticism of two average to poor performances. 

If you think that's the best England can play then your pre-tournament arrogance is even more hilarious now. If you think you can do a lot better, then why are you taking issue with anyone who criticised your manager?

[Rob1981]

Just now, EnterUsernameHere said:

Aren't you the guy who thinks England can decide whether they finish 1st or 2nd as if you have that much control in games?

We can decide how hard we attack the Czechs and if that makes the difference between a win and a draw then it will see us either 1st or 2nd. And we know going into the game where we will finish whatever happens in the Scotland v Croatia game. In that respect last night’s results were great for us, performance notwithstanding.

Not sure why that’s such an outrageous observation, you are the one that wants us to have a tactical plan ffs.

[Peterj]

11 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Tell me a team that has won it with such a poor defensive base or lack of tactical plan. I'll concede if you can. 

We conceded 6 goals in 8 qualifying games and none so far in the tournament, it really isn’t that bad. Pickford and our centre halves are a mistake waiting to happen but our record isn’t actually that bad.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Peterj

[EnterUsernameHere]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

We can decide how hard we attack the Czechs and if that makes the difference between a win and a draw then it will see us either 1st or 2nd. And we know going into the game where we will finish whatever happens in the Scotland v Croatia game. In that respect last night’s results were great for us, performance notwithstanding.

Not sure why that’s such an outrageous observation, you are the one that wants us to have a tactical plan ffs.

Theres a lack of a tactical plan.

A tactical plan isn't just "ok we need win now", Or "its ok lads a draw is ok".

You realise you aren't good enough to dictate what other teams do, surely?

[EnterUsernameHere]

1 minute ago, Peterj said:

We conceded 6 goals in 8 qualifying games and none so far in the tournament, it really isn’t that bad. Pickford and our centre halves are a mistake waiting to happen but our record isn’t actually that bad.

Not a terrible record but it's not really that impressive either?

[Tikka Mezzala]

I was surprised not to see Sancho come on over the two games. I watch more of the Bundesliga than the Premier League, though, so maybe I am biased towards him over Grealish, Foden etc. Not seen much of Grealish at all. Wasn't impressed with him yesterday, but it wasn't easy circumstances to come into. Was expecting peak Messi the way some people were going on about him

[skybluedave]

Pickford been weirdly composed and solid so far. 

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Theres a lack of a tactical plan.

A tactical plan isn't just "ok we need win now", Or "its ok lads a draw is ok".

You realise you aren't good enough to dictate what other teams do, surely?

I’m talking about Tuesday’s game specifically. If we don’t take the game to the Czechs they won’t go very offensive to try and beat us. Why would they? If we conjure up a draw then they top the group and we finish second and between us we can make sure the other two sides finish 3rd and 4th whatever happens in the other match. There is no sense in them attacking us and forcing a more open game that they might then lose. 

[Wiggins Top Boys]

6 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Pickford been weirdly composed and solid so far. 

Always played well for England tbf

[EnterUsernameHere]

4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I’m talking about Tuesday’s game specifically. If we don’t take the game to the Czechs they won’t go very offensive to try and beat us. Why would they? If we conjure up a draw then they top the group and we finish second and between us we can make sure the other two sides finish 3rd and 4th whatever happens in the other match. There is no sense in them attacking us and forcing a more open game that they might then lose. 

Surely there's some sense in trying out your tactics for your knockout games? If you're that confident...

You have a weird disconnect of being so confident you'll go far but not seeing the need to adapting your tactics. It's not a light switch. You can't just turn on/off a set up.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by EnterUsernameHere

[av3ry]

I really want Spain to finish 2nd so Southgate's masterplan of finishing 2nd to get an "easier" last 16 opponent backfires on him.

[Rob1981]

3 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

You have a weird disconnect of being so confident you'll go far but not seeing the need to adapting your tactics.

I mean, I’ve not said either of these things. But sure, keep arguing if you want.

Literally all I’ve said is that a 0-0 draw in a group stage game isn’t a disaster. And that tournaments are full of teams that play badly a couple of times and can still win. Do we need to create more against better teams? Obviously yes.

[EnterUsernameHere]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I mean, I’ve not said either of these things. But sure, keep arguing if you want.

Literally all I’ve said is that a 0-0 draw in a group stage game isn’t a disaster. And that tournaments are full of teams that play badly a couple of times and can still win. Do we need to create more against better teams? Obviously yes.

So why do you get annoyed when people criticise England's performances? It was the same before/after Croatia.

Edited June 19, 2021 by EnterUsernameHere

[Rob1981]

10 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

So why do you get annoyed when people criticise England's performances? It was the same before/after Croatia.

I think Southgate is doing a brilliant job. But I’m judging him on how he’s brought young players through over the last 2-3 years, how he will be managing the squad rotation over 4-5 games, how he’s managing the media, how he’s created a club culture in camp where you can tell the players love being there.

I’m not judging him on whatever substitution he did or didn’t make late on in a group game that both sides were happy to draw.

He isn’t the best tactician but then we’ve had various master tacticians before that have got all the other stuff wrong. And none of them took as far in a tournament as Southgate did in 2018.

Maybe in the R16 we get pummelled 4-1 by a top team instead of losing narrowly by one goal (Capello, 2010). Or we get an easy draw but there’s another Iceland result in us and we end up a global laughing stock (Hodgson, 2016). But so far under Gareth this has never happened.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Rob1981

[enigmatic]

3 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

So why do you get annoyed when people criticise England's performances? It was the same before/after Croatia.

It is possible to criticise England's performance, which was rubbish, without nonsensical "we can't possibly stand a chance in later rounds because we had one bad game" and all this insistence that we can't possibly beat big teams despite the fact that playing Scotland says very little about the ability to beat big teams, and actually managing to beat big teams on a few occasions in the last few years says quite a bit more.

Also it was ridiculous that people were actually disappointed by us opening our account by dominating World Cup finalists who knocked us out last time

[EnterUsernameHere]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

I think Southgate is doing a brilliant job. But I’m judging him on how he’s brought young players through over the last 2-3 years, how he will managing the squad rotation over 4-5 games, how he’s managing the media, how he’s created a club culture in camp where you can tell the players love being there.

I’m not judging him on whatever substitution he did or didn’t make late on in a group game that both sides were happy to draw.

He isn’t the best tactician but then we’ve had various master tacticians before that have got all the other stuff wrong.

Maybe in the R16 we get pummelled 4-0 by a top team instead of losing narrowly by one goal (Capello, 2010). Or we get an easy draw and there’s another Iceland result in us (Hodgson, 2016). But so far under Gareth this has never happened.

That's fair enough. I'd say most people criticising him are saying it because they think his approach will have their country dumped out pretty soon though.

[EnterUsernameHere]

Just now, enigmatic said:

It is possible to criticise England's performance, which was rubbish, without nonsensical "we can't possibly stand a chance in later rounds because we had one bad game" and all this insistence that we can't possibly beat big teams despite the fact that playing Scotland says very little about the ability to beat big teams, and actually managing to beat big teams on a few occasions in the last few years says quite a bit more.

Also it was ridiculous that people were actually disappointed by us opening our account by dominating World Cup finalists who knocked us out last time

Yes that's possible and wow at you not being able to realise Croatia have dropped a long way since then.

[VamPook]

Quite plain to see Croatia were terrible in that 1st match and almost just as bad in their 2nd.

[enigmatic]

10 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

 wow at you not being able to realise Croatia have dropped a long way since then.

OK, I admit it, the absence of Mandzukic and Lovren from their starting lineup means we should have scored at least ten, and opening with a comfortable 1 goal victory was a massive failure on our part which is completely at odds with the glorious performances the likes of Spain have been putting in.

Edited June 19, 2021 by enigmatic

[Rob1981]

Didn’t you hear? Spain drew a group game 0-0 so they can’t win it now.

[EnterUsernameHere]

3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

OK, I admit it, the absence of Mandzukic and Lovren from their starting lineup means we should have scored at least ten, and opening with a comfortable 1 goal victory was a massive failure on our part which is completely at odds with the glorious performances the likes of Spain have been putting in.

Maybe there's a middle ground. Well done at illustrating my point though. In absence of great teams you look at performances. 

All this talk makes it even more of a killer for me when England bore their way to a Euro win.

 

 

[EnterUsernameHere]

Honestly I just don't get people who think 1-0=good, 0-0=bad. If you think the performance was good, fine, I disagree though.

If you're going to say "oh but team X did y"...why do you even watch matches? 

[VP.]

16 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I think Southgate is doing a brilliant job. But I’m judging him on how he’s brought young players through over the last 2-3 years, how he will be managing the squad rotation over 4-5 games, how he’s managing the media, how he’s created a club culture in camp where you can tell the players love being there.

I’m not judging him on whatever substitution he did or didn’t make late on in a group game that both sides were happy to draw.

He isn’t the best tactician but then we’ve had various master tacticians before that have got all the other stuff wrong. And none of them took as far in a tournament as Southgate did in 2018.

Maybe in the R16 we get pummelled 4-1 by a top team instead of losing narrowly by one goal (Capello, 2010). Or we get an easy draw but there’s another Iceland result in us and we end up a global laughing stock (Hodgson, 2016). But so far under Gareth this has never happened.

I prefer to judge a 'brilliant' managers performance by what happens on the pitch and so far since he has been in charge we have been mediocre at best. He may be able to say 'well I got us to a World Cup semi' but lets be honest we had easiest route possible and lost all 3 matches against decent opposition and so far at the Euro's we don't appear to have improved at all from back then. 

Find it strange that you do not judge a football manager on his football managing performance?

 

[pearcey_90]

1 hour ago, Peterj said:

There’s way too much bed wetting from England fans over one mediocre performance (and we were hardly played off the park and had a couple of presentable chances ourselves). This is what tournament football is like and everyone here was good enough and organised enough to get results. Nobody is going to roll over and England is a second tier team lacking in world class creative talent. We have an outside chance and are advantaged by playing at home but we just aren’t a side capable of blowing teams away. It wasn’t the greatest performance and we were below par , but every tournament winner has games like this and throwing our hands up and despairing over one poor performance in a game we didn’t even lose is an over reaction.

But it’s the same as before that’s why theirs a reaction  It’s not like we’re scrambling out the group and we know we can defend solid enough to grind wins out. We can’t defend well enough against the best teams to keep clean sheets, so unless we rely on pens, we have to score 2 goals to win games. So are we creating enough and being blunt? No, we’re not even doing that  

Like people will keep saying Spain have started poorly. But they at least created loads of chances against a side that sat on their 6 yard box, so there’s more positives to take for them. Against better sides they concede the chances Sweden had, but at same time wouldn’t face a side so deep so would still create loads (like against Germany when they won 6-0).