Ruud van Nistelrooy Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 That's always been my beef with Carrick, all too often I see him hiding. Don't make yourself available for the pass, point to someone else, likes to have to have too much time on the ball. A lot of the time for England his passing is too safe, probably terrified of too many wayward longer passes and getting grief for it, in that case why play him, you know?Carrick isn't one for a battle for me, he's the kind of player we could do with, I thought going to United, playing in the Champions League would be great for England but he seems to be going backwards and Fergie all too often resting him for the big, big games and Fergie is no mug on these matters You've never had a good word to say about Carrick tbh. Been waiting for this dip in form for years. He is more than prepared to battle defensively, but he isn't going to charge forward when on the ball, just isn't that kind of player. Makes plenty of longer passes, but only when there are players in space. Keeps the ball better than anyone else in the squad and can easily spread the play when he needs to. Does want too much time on the ball tbf and hasn't been in the best form, but as we are struggling for possession he is our best option. Barry is overrated in that respect, although his defensive work is solid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nistelrooy_uk_10 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I think he was effective for Liverpool when he was playing behind/alongside Torres a couple of years ago, and he's scored some good long range goals and likes a tackle. But I don't rate him anywhere near the best central midfield players in the world. He lacks composure and rushes things too much for my liking. His best qualities are things like grit, determination and spirit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio_V Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Have to agree with the Adam Johnson shout. Thought he would make it into the side with his form. Seems to me he took SWP on form, but then, if he did, it should have been Johnson. But if you are looking for tricks and creativity, where in the world is Joe Cole in Capello's plan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Yeah I agree Nistel, that's his best position Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 You've never had a good word to say about Carrick tbh. Been waiting for this dip in form for years. He is more than prepared to battle defensively, but he isn't going to charge forward when on the ball, just isn't that kind of player. Makes plenty of longer passes, but only when there are players in space. Keeps the ball better than anyone else in the squad and can easily spread the play when he needs to. Does want too much time on the ball tbf and hasn't been in the best form, but as we are struggling for possession he is our best option. Barry is overrated in that respect, although his defensive work is solid. Haha, I am openly not a fan of Carrick, even at his height of being good for Spurs. I haven't just piped up and starting having a pop recently. I don't like him when he has his back to goal, which let's face it, is probably going to happen when you're fairly deep and receiving the ball from the centre backs or keeper, I don't want him to charge forward but he's supposed to be some deep lying play maker but I don't see enough adventurous enough passes from him. As I said, in theory he'd be great but not just for United in most England performances bar Egypt he's been pretty ordinary. I don't see him attempting enough of those big passes in big matches cause I think it's easy to make the simple pass and be successful than the attacking, intricate pass he can do but doesn't want to do and it not come off time and again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruud van Nistelrooy Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 If there is someone in space and an adventurous pass on then Carrick will play it. For England, that might be a problem as there is hardly ever anyone in space. My main criticism of him would be pretty much the opposite, looks for the adventurous pass often when he should keep it simple. Trying to play the perfect pass rather than the obvious one can see him take too much time and be tackled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 The "there was nothing on" is a great get out from attempting anything though, it's then everyone elses fault which ties in nicely with the currently starting XI Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Barry>>>>>Carrick (for England anyway) The only time Carrick has played well for us is when he's alongside Barry. He and team just lok awful when it's him and Lampard in the middle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
why? Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I don't like him when he has his back to goal, which let's face it, is probably going to happen when you're fairly deep and receiving the ball from the centre backs or keeper, I don't want him to charge forward but he's supposed to be some deep lying play maker but I don't see enough adventurous enough passes from him. We don't need adventurous passes from him, we need him to provide a short option for the defence, receive the ball and recycle it allowing us to move forward in tandem as a team. Big adventurous passes is what we need to get away from, the opportunities to play them in international football are largely limited because teams are so disciplined defensively. We urgently need to get back to more compact football and encourage shorter passes, otherwise it's just going to be more of the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 By adventurous I mean incisive, I don't see him doing any of that in a midfield central 2 anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaga_4_parma Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 It's sad the way Ireland beat Paraguay and Algeria...who both drew with Italy and England respectively but are not at the world cup Shouldn't have let the ball bounce in your box to allow Henry to handball it then... I bet Ireland will learn to clear anything that comes inside the box from now on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 You can't draw too much from friendlies leading into the tournament though, in the world cup itself it's a totally different kettle of fish Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaupunkt Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Well since you ask, he drew the best Algerian save, was involved in key build-up for a few decent chances, the quick header back to Gerrard in the second half, a couple of sliding through balls down the channel, and like I say, was the best passer and covered most ground, as you want from that role.Hardly Lampard's fault though is it? If he's been given instruction, why go against it? Can't expect him to do as he does for Chelsea without playing to his strengths. Horses for courses as most people are aware in this debate. Better and more creative passer is a matter of opinion, and helping out in defence is nonsense for me really, there's a reason Capello's asked Lampard to be the more defensive one. It's hard to convince people of Lampard's all-round game because he's become quite stereotyped over the years but all I can do is present something like this, which I'm sort of loathe to do as it's cliched and frowned upon, but it does show so many elements to his game. For me, all Gerrard has over him is a second gear of pace, and yeah, it matters, but it's not exactly the be all and end all of football. i am not saying its his fault or that he should go against any instructions thats been given, but point out that he was so good at passing in that game when the majority of his passes were simple, short backward/sideways passes that should be completed is hardly comparable to a player who is looking to make attacking or creative passes. no you cannot expect him to play for england as he does for chelsea unless england setup the same way and play in the same manner, how can helping out in defence be nonsense?? as you say horses for courses but in my opinion lampards defensive play is poor. if he was such a good defensive midfield player why does he not play a similar roll for chelsea... posting a video of lampards "best clips" if you like proves nothing, after all pele was s**t wanst he, could not hit a barn door. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused Clarity Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 criticising Phil for posting a youtube clip when he actually said he doesn't particularly want to do it, but was the only real way for him to quickly back up his argument? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
why? Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 It backs up nothing, just a lazy attempt to support a very weak argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldeniro Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Shouldn't have let the ball bounce in your box to allow Henry to handball it then...I bet Ireland will learn to clear anything that comes inside the box from now on... I know, terrible defending to allow an offside player to handle it and cheat like that I hope Trap gave them all the hairdryer treatment after that game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 An amazing qualification, beating Germany and Holland in friendlies over this time, our star player having his best season for absolute years, I know Scots have a reputation for being miserable but if you can't have a bit of optimism after that. The Berlin performance was impressive, as was that against Croatia. Lest not forget that Capello didn't win against Holland, in fact, his defense looked a bit like comedy gold in the first half and England had to play catch-up in the second. He also lost against, Spain, Brazil, France and Ukraine, so this was always to be taken with a grain of cautionesness. Also, it's been a while since the last good performance. It all started to go downhill a wee bit after that Croatia game. That, and that the core of the squad Capello is working with is basically England 2006 all over, except that Ferdinand is out, and Terry and Gerrard were arguably in better shape back then. Simon Kuper ("Football against the enemy", brillant book) has written a neat article for Die Welt, dunno if it's available in English too, but some of you might be familiar with German. If everything goes normal, you should advance on Wednesday. However, like us against Ghana, there is a real possibilty of going out now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted June 19, 2010 It backs up nothing, just a lazy attempt to support a very weak argument. a) how else do you propose I go about trying to tell people they generally have no idea what Lampard is capable of? I probably watch him more than anyone else on the forum, I think I know his game pretty well. Nobody's going to sit down and watch loads of Chelsea, encapsulating his game into a shortish video such a bad idea? b) why do you consider it a weak argument that Lampard isn't what people assume he is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcoleman1 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I wouldn't consider dropping Lampard tbh. If there is an argument to drop him there is an argument to drop Gerrard as well tbh, who is quite lucky that he's the captain. Give it back to JT tbh, we did a lot better when he was captain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
why? Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 a) No idea, in fact it's a totally fruitless exercise so if i were you i wouldn't bother. But i can assure you that youtube best-bits are not the way. Same reason why i never get into a discussion with anyone who dismisses Gerrard as a headless chicken. b) It's a weak argument because your arguments were weak?? All you said was matter of opinion this, he is stereotyped that, and then posted a video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 http://www.goal.com/en/news/1863/world-cup-2010/2010/06/18/1982417/brazil-are-over-rated-and-england-have-a-great-opportunityHaha, the footballing wisdom that is Harry Redknapp... Brazil are overated!?! And to think there are people, most notably a heavy contingent of those hacks in the England camp looking to undermine Capello at every given opportunity, who want this clown as the England manager. Herein is the problem with the England football team. A bunch of incredibly twisted, bitter, cynical and lazy hacks who have little else to do but to build people and hopes up beyond anything plausible, realistic or reasonable, before destroying them in double-quick time. They have their favourites (e.g. Venables in the past, Redknapp now; various players, most notably Gerrard), who are untouchable. Anyone else is cannon-fodder. The press are responsible for the ridiculous expectation that surrounds the England team every couple of years, which in turn whups the public into a frenzy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I must say I don't like how close to the players, even in the league, some of the journos are. Always little leaks and tittle-tattle coming from within the squad and various teams or via agents Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted June 19, 2010 a) No idea, in fact it's a totally fruitless exercise so if i were you i wouldn't bother. But i can assure you that youtube best-bits are not the way. Same reason why i never get into a discussion with anyone who dismisses Gerrard as a headless chicken.b) It's a weak argument because your arguments were weak?? All you said was matter of opinion this, he is stereotyped that, and then posted a video. Fair enough, I probably shouldn't bother, as long as he's good for Chelsea I don't really care what else happens. b) I can't really prove fact where it's opinion based, I just offered some token evidence to try to provoke thought, I'm not likely to say "here you go" and expect people to suddenly think differently. If people choose to see Lampard as they evidently do, more fool them ultimately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I must say I don't like how close to the players, even in the league, some of the journos are. Always little leaks and tittle-tattle coming from within the squad and various teams or via agents Yeah there's a lot of this. Oliver Kay coming out with all this shizzle on his Twitter feed about Capello having no idea who his goalie was on the morning of the USA match. Just blatant cack-stirring. The fact he couldn't substantiate this and consistently spouts total nonsense just illustrates the point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 There were as many reports about Green being stuck with by Capello as there were James. Rumours of Defoe starting. They know nothing. I am sure they watch the training and decide what to write based on who is training with the first team and for how long Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hom3r Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 The Berlin performance was impressive, as was that against Croatia. Lest not forget that Capello didn't win against Holland, in fact, his defense looked a bit like comedy gold in the first half and England had to play catch-up in the second. He also lost against, Spain, Brazil, France and Ukraine, so this was always to be taken with a grain of cautionesness. Also, it's been a while since the last good performance.. Yeah I know that, I wasn't suggesting that I thought we'd definitely win the World Cup which Wilson seems to think all England fans were thinking with his delusions of grandeur line, most probably thought we had a bit of a chance if we face Spain/Brazil on an off day. France and Ukraine results were poor yeah and probably the main blips, not sure any England fan thought we were better than Spain or Brazil and those results were expected. I thought we beat Holland 2-1 with Defoe getting 2 in the 2nd half? Was it 2-2 then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 We'd already qualified when we played Ukraine, Rob Green also got sent off. France was one of Capello's first games in charge 2-2 vs Dutch, we basically gave them 2 goals, Rio sliding one to their striker IIRC and can't remember the other, was equally woeful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
perpetua Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Dunno what else to expect from a player in deep role. 47 of Xavi's 68 passes against Switzerland fit the same description, a greater percentage, for example. Um yeah, certainly the same thing. Except! Oh wait. Xavi played ahead of two defensive midfielders, so perhaps he's more comparable to Gerrard. Also the two teams play a pretty different style don't they? I mean Ramos was near the Swiss box most of the times he received a ball from Xavi so you can easily strike the 9 passes from that statistic. In fact, Xavi barely ever went into his own half. Check the heatmaps. Compare against Van Bommel and see what you find if you like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool dude Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 The only good thing to take out of last night was that Carragher is probably our best available centre back, was solid all night.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Stuart Wilson Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 The only good thing to take out of last night was that Carragher is probably our best available centre back, was solid all night.. Looked a red card waiting to happen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldeniro Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Carragher was woeful, everytime someone attacks him the first thing I think of is he's going to give away his penalty. The guy can't tackle for his life and is always going to be beaten for pace like when Altidore raped him. Where have people gotten the impression he was solid? Because England didn't concede? Don't know how he's in instead of Dawson to be honest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACou2000 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 its still a joke Carragher is starting he looks in utter panic whenever the ball comes near him. individual shambles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt1389 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I know this is probably pointless because nobody seems to like Lampard as much as Gerrard, but I shall say it anyway. I don't see how he can be criticised for being effectively played out of position, people seem obsessed with bringing Gerrard into the middle and building a team around him when Lampard was clearly the better player last season, only a crazy person could argue against that imo. And please notice I said last season, debating who is better is a never ending argument. And the best thing to come from the Algeria game was the Carragher ban. I'm a Dawson fan, Upson is left footed so would want Terry's slot in the defence which isn't an option for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I agree with matt there. If you look at over the last 5/6 seasons, the highest scoring player in the Premier League consistently was Frank Lampard. Why don't we stick him in the same role that he plays for at Chelsea? Why are we obsessed with Gerrard, who, lets face it, has had a miserable two seasons? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodmansee Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I thought Barry was played so Gerrard and Lampard can get forward. Whats the problem now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt1389 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Barry is there to cover the space Gerrard leaves when he cuts inside. This causes Lampard to fall deeper to help Barry cover the middle of the pitch. That's how I read it anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamos5000 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Miserable two seasons? He was great the season before last, it was only the season just gone where the wheels fell off. i think one of the problems we have with no Ferdinand is we haven't got anyone who carry the ball out of defence, which in turn pushes the whole team up the pitch. Because Carragher and Terry both lack pace they sit deeper to compensate and in turn drag the rest team back a few yards towards our goal with them. Probably wouldn't have made much difference in this game tbf as the whole team was so inept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Good point about Rio. Miss him more than ever, King too pretty comfortable on the ball, even though he kept uncharacteristically hoofing it against the USA (probably explained to due him carrying the injury) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamos5000 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Yeah, I was incredibly frustrated with King in that game. He's the one centreback in the squad capable of fulfilling that role yet kept launching it aimlessly forward. As you say, that was probably due to injury. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 As a Spurs fan I was just watching thinking WTF are you doing King!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett.spurs Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 Wasn't that bothered at first when Scholes turned England down, but after seeing these first 2 games I reckon he'd make a massive difference to the side. Someone who can actually dictate play and pick a pass Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamos5000 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Pity the two players who, imo, could effectively deputise for Rio in that role (King and Woodgate) are bigger crocks than he is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Yeah Woody would have been good. Had a good injury free couple of years before this season, shame that. Scholes would have been awesome, I wish I never knew he considered the recall- just becomes more of a tease. Can imagine him sending great balls to set Lennon free. A fit Hargreaves- who for me is better than Barry, a fit Rio, Scholes in the team, a fit Beckham- I bet he would have set up a goal last night, even a fit in form Brown (from 2008). *sighs* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawd Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Yeah Woody would have been good. Had a good injury free couple of years before this season, shame that. Scholes would have been awesome, I wish I never knew he considered the recall- just becomes more of a tease. Can imagine him sending great balls to set Lennon free.A fit Hargreaves- who for me is better than Barry, a fit Rio, Scholes in the team, a fit Beckham- I bet he would have set up a goal last night, even a fit in form Brown (from 2008). *sighs* You think all the stick Becks has taken over the years, and still gets from certain quarters, but he wouldn't have shyed away last night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I mentioned in the England thread, how many of our goals in the finals from 98-06 did he have a hand in? A massive amount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawd Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 And for all the talk of the pace we have on the right wing with Lennon, SWP, Walcott no good breezing past people if you can't cross a ball. Plus Beckham was probably the best captain we have had for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I wouldn't have started him if he was fit, but I think he would have been very effective for 20mins each game. I know that's a criticism thats been aimed a lot at Lennon in the past and rightly so, but he has improved his final delivery a lot this season, he is much improved. Two issues really are 1) is he he still fully fit? he was absolutely flying before he picked up his injury earlier in the season. 2) as has been discussed in the England thread, the England team don't really play to his strengths, so he looks limited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawd Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I just think its the consistancy of the crossing thats the problem. At international level you have to get it right more often then you get it wrong and Lennon just isn't quite their yet, but he is young and crossing is a trainable skill. England for some reason unbeknownst to me, don't play to anyones strengths lol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett.spurs Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 I don't think poor delivery can be thrown at Lennon over these two games, from what I remember on the very few occasions that he's been in a position to cross the ball, he's done fairly well. It seems as though when someone isn't sure what to say about him they just say his delivery was crap. He just can't get into the game at all for the numerous reasons I've stated in the other thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 A fit Hargreaves- who for me is better than Barry, a fit Rio, Scholes in the team, a fit Beckham- I bet he would have set up a goal last night, even a fit in form Brown (from 2008). *sighs* I'd have had Beckham in this squad if he didn't get injured, he would got some crosses in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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