perpetua

I imagine that is something that folks at SI is better positioned to investigate if they convinced by the arguments presented here that something goes awry during player development. My conjecture is that the AI needs to be smarter when assigning training roles. For example, players should not be trained as a defensive centre back or a defensive full back. These roles mainly put emphasis on physical development in comparison to technical or mental development. In my opinion, players don't get trained to be defensive centre back or defensive full back, they simply end up suitable for these roles because they don't have the potential to be able to sufficiently develop technically or mentally but have the drive and/or genetic disposition to develop physically. In the game, when you take a 170 PA central defender and put him in a defensive centre back regime, he ends up with 17-18's in all of his physical attributes and 12-13's for relevant technical and mental attributes. In reality, if this player was trained as a defensive centre back, he would probably cap out at 130-140 CA at a maximum because he would reach his physical capacity (individual's capacity, not maximum capacity of 20 for each attribute) before reaching his overall potential ability. Since the game doesn't, to my knowledge, differentiate between physical potential, technical potential and mental potential we end up with very high ability players who are most suitable for limited roles. One way to prevent this is by ensuring the AI doesn't train high potential players in limited roles and turn them into athletes instead of footballers. If this is done, perhaps we won't need so many high potential players, which increase the quantity of high quality players in the long term (this, in my opinion, ruins gameplay in sub-top leagues like Turkey due to the relative ease of access to 130-140 CA players and typically big teams turning into mid-table sides as a result - but that's a whole other issue). Similar to the example with defenders, in my opinion, wide players shouldn't always be trained as wingers. The objective should always be to develop a player in a more well rounded role like IF or WM or AP or WP. If the player doesn't have the capacity to develop mentally or technically, then he becomes a winger who relies on his pace and his crossing. Alternatively, he ends up as a full back/wing back. In midfield, more rounded CM or B2B role training should be preferred. These guys may end up as BWM's if they can't develop technically. Only those newgens who are created with superior vision should be put on playmaker roles. Since pretty much every young midfield player is put on a playmaker role, we get plenty of players suitable for AP or DLP roles. However these players are acqually quite difficult to train since creativity, as proxied by vision, is not so easy to train So, in summary, the game needs to stop training high potential players in limited roles and instead prefer roles which will develop players to be well rounded players. With the current AI training assignments, I imagine Ronaldo would have been turned into a winger who would look to get to the byline and cross the ball with every opportunity rather than the very dangerous goal threat that he actually became. Goals are more valuable than assists. If you have a player who could become a great goalscorer, why would you turn him into someone who puts his blinders on and consistently crosses balls into the box and pray someone else puts it into the net? If he fails to become that goalscorer for which you strive, then he can still settle for being a winger. Similarly, if you have a player with high enough potential that he can learn to play the ball from the back, why turn him into a defensive full back or defensive centre back who can only launch long ball after long ball? At the end of the day, high CA implies the player is to play for a big club. Being a big club implies control/attacking mentality is to be used in most matches. Attack mentality being used in most matches means a necessity for players who can pass the ball accurately. If so many high PA players are developed in roles that struggle to pass the ball, then how will big clubs win matches? Physical superiority and long balls, of course.

This is from a holiday game that I ran until 2036. I can upload the save if you require. Main Issue: I am seeing too many very short (165 cm or shorter) players who have very high ability. Attached are are several examples. All of these are playing for quite large clubs despite their physical disadvantage. The ones that play in the centre of midfield or defensive midfield are of special interest since this position usually requires a larger physical frame and some ability to deal with high balls. Especially interesting is the 165cm goalkeeper who has played for Argentina 50 times and has had a 10+ season strong career with Benfica. Sub issue related to attribute progression: A special case of interest for him is the fact that his Aerial Ability is 13. Since this attribute reflects a player's aerial reach, it should be impossible for such a short player to have such a high reach, considering not only his height but also his arm length would hinder his ability to claim high balls. In fact, research guidelines suggest a value of 1-4 for Aerial Ability for a goalkeeper of his height. Takeaway: There should be some sort of a minimum height requirement for players of relatively high potential (for example 140+). For good measure, here is how height is distributed in the database currently for 140+ CA players. Players Min 5% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 95% Max GK 82 1.79 1.83 1.84 1.86 1.87 1.88 1.89 1.91 1.92 1.93 1.96 1.96 2.01 FB (RL) 96 1.68 1.70 1.72 1.73 1.76 1.77 1.79 1.80 1.82 1.83 1.85 1.86 1.90 DC 122 1.74 1.82 1.83 1.84 1.86 1.87 1.87 1.89 1.90 1.91 1.93 1.95 1.98 DM 70 1.66 1.74 1.76 1.79 1.80 1.82 1.83 1.84 1.86 1.87 1.88 1.89 1.94 CM 183 1.65 1.70 1.71 1.73 1.76 1.78 1.80 1.81 1.83 1.85 1.88 1.89 1.94 AM (RLC) 216 1.63 1.69 1.70 1.72 1.73 1.75 1.77 1.79 1.80 1.83 1.85 1.86 1.93 ST 120 1.63 1.72 1.75 1.78 1.80 1.81 1.83 1.85 1.86 1.87 1.89 1.90 1.95 Given this, I would suggest: GK's minimum height 1.80m FB's minimum height 1.70m DC's minimum height 1.80m (the 1.74m player is Mascherano, who has been moved to DC at a later stage in his career for a very specific purpose) DM's minimum height 1.70m (the 1.66m player is Marcelo Diaz who could just as easily be classified as an MC) CM's minimum height 1.65m AM's minimum height 1.65m (or 1.63m but a couple of centimeters won't make a difference as long as it's not 1.55m) ST's minimum height 1.70m (the 1.63m player is Sebastian Giovinco who is more of a forward, rather than a striker, there is also Jermain Defoe with 1.67 but depending on the source he is sometimes listed as 1.70m or 1.71m)

From what I have observed, the norm is still 4 man defenses with most teams using 4411, 4231 Wide or 4231 DM Wide, 4141DM or 4123DM. While formations with MR/ML positions are used quite commonly and probably more commonly than in real life today, that shouldn't mean IFs need to go extinct since the WM role is essentially the MR/ML version of the IF role (given that the WM cuts inside and is more of a passer than a crosser). What I see instead are Wingers with very high ratings for pace and crossing and relatively low ratings for passing and movement. In 2036: I can identify 13 wide players with 15+ ratings in both passing and off the ball. On the other hand, there are 215 wide players with 15+ ratings for both crossing and pace. So the wide players available 20 years into the future are those who are more suitable to kick, rush, cross type of football than the football which attempts to control the game by meaningful possession which we see today. They go hand in hand with the plethora of playmakers available in midfield with industrious central midfielders or B2Bs which balance technical ability and physical ability having gone almost extinct (even though, I would argue, they are the norm today).

@fmfan74 If the Dutch newgen AMR/AMLs are consistently being developed with a very high crossing ability and a mediocre off the ball ability, then there is indeed lack of realism in the game as it ignores a feature which is fundamental to Dutch football, has been for decades and probably will continue to be fundamental for the foreseeable future. A newgen who is 27 years old in 2029 must have been born in 2002. So he will be 14 years old when the game starts in 2016 and would have received 5-6 years of youth training with methodology that is still valid today. The game being dominated by wide players who have a crossing rating which is circa 5-6 points higher than their off the ball movement is a paradigm change because the reverse is true today, especially at the top level. If there is to be a paradigm change with respect to player development, as has been voiced by the 'variation from the database' argument, we shouldn't fully observe it until at least 15 years after the paradigm change occurs. However we are observing this within 2-3 years of game start, which means the paradigm change occurred at least 5 years before the game start. Hence the lack of realism in this regard.

@Thorne I agree there is an issue and I have run several games with results very similar to yours. While all the comments made on here about being able to use players out of position and re-train players are completely valid, as long as the AI doesn't follow these workarounds the user is at a distinct advantage against the AI. Since for most users the game is played against the AI, it's imperative that AI controlled teams assign players' training in a way to produce results that give us the feeling of realism. And while I agree with the responses that our prejudices of today and the prevalence of IF's today may not persist into the future, I question the AI's ability to get creative and come up with original tactical systems which make the best use of the players available 10-15 years into the future. If most managers in football are still using 433 or 4231 in the game's future (which they are), then they should be looking to produce players which suit this formation and their tactical systems. As such, we should be seeing plenty of IFs 10-15 years into the future because the game isn't sophisticated enough to evolve tactical systems based on players available in the marketplace. As such, player training should be working towards the goal of preparing a player for the first team. If a team uses and hence needs IFs, AI should work to get players ready to fill this role rather than blindly training players into roles for which coaches deem them suitable based on their attributes at age 16-17. Given that most newgens are created with relatively high physical attributes in comparison to technical and mental, AMR or AMLs are almost always deemed as being wingers by AI coaches even if they could be something else. Hence their training as Wingers, rather then IFs and hence the prevalence of Wingers in the game 10-15 years into the future. I have seen one player who is either footed (stronger foot is right) that is created as an AML/ST in 2019. He starts out with: Crossing: 9 Dribbling: 12 Finishing: 7 Long Shots: 9 Passing: 6 Off the Ball: 10 Vision: 11 So he certainly isn't incapable of being trained as an IF. When I take over the club, a coach suggests he should be retrained as an MR because he's right footed. Fast forward to 2029 and he has: Crossing: 15 (+6) Dribbling: 15 (+3) Finishing: 8 (-1) Long Shots: 13 (+4) Passing: 10 (+4) Off the Ball: 12 (+2) Vision: 12 (+1) So the player has clearly been trained as a Winger even though the player could have just as easily been trained as an IF. There are hundreds of similar examples in each holiday game that I have run (over 30 so far) while testing the Turkish league. Your observations are certainly not a one off incident in my experience.

Oyunda Turkiye vatandasligini, Turk statusunde oynayabilme olarak dusun. Turk statusunde oynayabilmeleri icin once milli olmalari gerekli. Eger milli olabilecek kaliteleri yoksa (ve/veya olmayacaksa), vatandaslik almak icin bir nedenleri de yok.

Sadece Turk vatandasi olma ihtimali olan futbolcular icin Turkiye'de gecirdigi sure bilgisi gorulebiliyor. Yani hic bir ulkenin milli takim formasi giymemis futbolcular. Translation: eed inquired about why he can't see the number of days until a player is eligible for Turkish nationality. The response is that the information is shown only for players who can take on Turkish citizenship (so only those players who have not played for another nation at any level).

@onurserter Yes, the values in the db are not incorrect. However in real life clubs can take on debt or sell/rent assets in order to generate cash flow whereas in the game this is not possible except for player sales. We can and will relax the debt burden on the clubs a little (the end product will resemble something like in the small patch you can find here) in order to help the clubs run a little smoother. However it's important to recognize that the only way the big three Turkish clubs can buy players nowadays is by selling players first. They are all paying far too much on player wages for their income. It is possible that the new TV deal will help them a little but this is just a short term solution, especially if they continue to spend too much on players in their early 30s.

Thanks. The ban was reduced by FIFA recently.

This rarely happens in Turkey unless the result of the game is a foregone conclusion. Especially if the player on 2 goals is not among the viable penalty kick takers on the team.

I published a small fix for several issues we identified in the database after the game's release. The aim of the fix is to help improve the long term viability of the league. You can find it in the link below. http://forum.turksportal.net/vb/showthread.php?t=125489

Yeah agreed. Turkish fans are quite fickle (as we have tried to reflect with low loyalty ratings in fan traits) and will fill stadiums to the brim when the club is successful and avoid the stadium when the club is being run poorly or is unsuccessful. At the moment, Fenerbahce fans are upset with the President on how he runs the club and are boycotting for a change. This is why season tickets are well below their historical average for the first season, as well as their average attendance. The same argument can be made about Galatasaray as well. I guess I could ignore the current reality in the database and go with historical averages for season tickets and average attendance to resolve this. But I think the fan loyalty rating should probably have more of an effect as well.

I already replied to all of this in the thread I linked above. FA has already ruled the start date of the competition named Turkish Super League is 1959 and that the competitions won by Besiktas in 1957 and 1958 can not be deemed as the predecessor of the current championship since it was an entirely separate championship. The game shows how many cups each team has won in each competition. And there is no dispute that Besiktas has won the competition, currently named Turkish Super League which started in 1959, 12 times. Besiktas has also won the Turkish Federation Cup in 1957 and 1958, which crowns them as champions of Turkey in those years. These competition wins are already reflected in the game as a separate competition according to the Turkish FA's ruling. If you can convince the FA to decide that the start date of the Turkish league to be the 1956/57 season, then I have no issues with doing exactly what you're asking us to do.

Truth is represented in the game to the best of our abilities. If you want it represented another way, you will need to convince the Turkish FA to change their ruling on the matter. While you are right, this is possible in real life because the FA decides which weeks the derbies will be played prior to the draw. The game tries to reduce fixture congestion by moving matches to friday or monday. The alternative would be playing too many matches in a short period of time.

I have explained how we have represented this in the thread below. http://forum.turksportal.net/vb/showthread.php?t=125435 No point in repeating everything again.