a tendancy to save penalties?

do we think keepers should have a stat which dictates their tendancy to save a penalty?

reina for example is really good at penalty saving. i dont see any particular ability in FM for him though. i was thinking it could be shown in the same way that keepers have an outfield rating out of 5 and the outfielders have a keeper rating out of 5.

Surely it should be just a combination of decisions, reflexes, anticipation etc, not a specific attribute in it's own right?

If this was included then im pretty sure it would be rather difficult to beat Reina in a penalty!

So i agree with bigdunk in regards to it being based on a combination of stats.

If outfield players have an attribute for taking penalties, why not goalkeepers for saving them?

iirc someone (matthew legod i think) said they do actually have one, its just not shown to us. maybe a researcher could clear that up?

If this was included then im pretty sure it would be rather difficult to beat Reina in a penalty!

So i agree with bigdunk in regards to it being based on a combination of stats.

if it is a combination of stats that are already present then the combination of stats aren't doing their job properly as reina has not saved a single penalty in my game whether it be given during normal play , penalty shoot out or just a penalty in a friendly. in my opinion.

i see the addition of a specific stat which would incorporate a combination of stats as being benificial. taking into account that it does actually work as should at present.

if not then creating an all new way of working out how much of a tendancy a keeper has at saving penalties would be a good addition.

I thought eccentricity played a role in it too. Sometimes my the commentary will read 'the goalkeeper's trying to put [penalty taker] off', and it seems more likely to happen with my eccentric GK. And he tends to save more of them, too.

This is a good idea.

If such attribute doesn't exist yet (it should then be visible in the editor unless it is one which is already collected but not used yet, I'm just too lazy to open the editor now), it should be created. Or if it is connected to existing attributes I would also be interested in knowing which ones.

it should be down to the manager to look at his gk stats and mental stats

It's definately possible to get this sort of keeper in the game.

I did have one excellent (regen) keeper named Cedric Clement, who was brilliant at them.

He saved 4 out of every 5 penalties he faced, probably more (by which I mean probably possibly over 80%, not probably 5 out of 5).

It was an amazing sight to see, because at the time, my defence conceded on average a penalty a match, and I never even worried about them - I was that confident he'd save them.

It as a sad day when he retired.

He was an amazing amazing guy - great in general play too - even though his stat spread wasn't that amazing.

Since he hung up his boots, I've always aimed to get keepers with reflexes, one on ones and composure as 20's, but never found the combination to quite replicate his sucess.

I agree with the OP.

Even the best Goalies in the world rarely save penalties on FM whereas IRL certain GK's are renowned for it.

Pepe Reina being a prime example - his penalty saving record IRL is second to none, but I can't recall him making any saves on FM.

It should be a sort-of GK-Specific PPM.

I think that the PPM idea is a good one. Or, if it was a stat i could be generated by adding together the skills attibuted to saving a penalty, getting a total and applying that to a 'perfect penalty taker' model.

Although, this may cause further dispute as what attributes are applicable is debatable. Some may argue that all the GK specific stats are?!?!

examples:

Sutton (TFC), in two years he has never saved a penalty. I've never seen him play before 2006, but I'm pretty sure his percentage would be lower than 5%

Shovkovsky (Ukraine/DK), followed him through whole career, he saves every second penalty. I've seen stats somewhere, it's something like 43%

The point is some keepers are ******** when it comes to penalties and some have figured them out. It would be nice to see it in the game.

like rinso said, I also remember a researcher saying there's a hidden stat already.

Surely it should be just a combination of decisions, reflexes, anticipation etc, not a specific attribute in it's own right?

Well, I would never have rated Mark Crossley particularly highly in those attributes, but his penalty saving rate was amazing.

Would be nice to see a pen saving stat for GK . But then again it would possibly make the game too easy.

Would be nice to see a pen saving stat for GK . But then again it would possibly make the game too easy.

Looks like they will in fm09 as you can see that buffon has 14 in this picture;

http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fm09penalitystatsc8.jpg

There aren't enough GK ppms in my opinion. not really enough to flesh out the style in which a keeper plays.

As far as I'm aware, 'punching the ball' attribute is actually a tendency and not a skill. Its how much the keeper prefers to punch the ball instead of catching it. So that would sit better under a PPM as well. The problem is, you can't have different shades of PPM, the player either does a PPM, or he doesn't.

I feel PPMs should summarise a players skill as well as give them extra character. If the hidden penalty save attribute is high, the PPM should say good at penalties. if its not it should say, poor at penalties. as a coach, I'd know which keeper was good and which was poor through training, I shouldn't have to wait and find out in a match!

in reply to smithers, no it wouldn't, it would actually make choosing goalkeepers a little more complicated since there will be one more factor to consider, and a pretty big one at that. right now, virtually all goalkeepers suck at penalties so it's pretty much a nonfactor.

in reply to Neb, CM08 does have different shades of PPM such as tends to hold up the ball, loves to hold up the ball, etc. It could be possible that FM09 does it similarly.

Rushing out, eccentricity and punching the ball are all tendency and not skills.

What PPM ?

Well, I would never have rated Mark Crossley particularly highly in those attributes, but his penalty saving rate was amazing.

Ha, I was going to say exactly the same thing. I think this attribute should be added (if it's not already a hidden attribute).

This was brought up a while ago - the stat is reseached, but at the moment it is not used in the game.

iirc someone (matthew legod i think) said they do actually have one, its just not shown to us. maybe a researcher could clear that up?

This is indeed correct in FM08. There is an invisible rating for keepers on penalties!

This is indeed correct in FM08. There is an invisible rating for keepers on penalties!

They must all be rated very low then, keepers on FM rarely save penalties.

Yeah, players practice taking penalties thus have a penalty taking stat so why can't keepers do the same? I remember IRL a few seasons ago, Mark Goodlad saved every penalty he faced that season. I think it was 9 or so penalties he kept out. Keepers obviously focus on saving them so it should have a stat by itself.

While all the attributes are there, I feel another is needed just to make keepers like Reina stand out that little bit further.

I agree with the OP, there definitely should be a penalty saving attribute, if outfield players have it so should keepers. I never quite understood what attributes made a good penalty stopping keeper. Always thought reflexes and one on ones made the most sense but a lot of mention of eccentricity in this and other threads on the subject. I always opted for keepers with low eccentricity.

While all the attributes are there, I feel another is needed just to make keepers like Reina stand out that little bit further.

Agree.

Couldn't be that difficult to add, although it's now "one for FM10"...

Wow, I'm looking forward to FM10 now...

Saving a penalty is just luck.

Scoring a penalty is surely what takes the skill.

Saving a penalty is just luck.

Scoring a penalty is surely what takes the skill.

Great logic ! If only watching football required brains or at least common sense

Saving a penalty is just luck.

Scoring a penalty is surely what takes the skill.

Some goalkeepers have a lot more luck than others.

Great logic ! If only watching football required brains or at least common sense

If FIFA has taught us anything of football its that saving penalties is all about right or left joystick...unless he goes center, the trickster...we better take a look at our buddies controller before he takes the penalty...

Saving them is all luck though at the end of the day. If you get lucky and dive the right way three times on the trot then your a "penalty specialist" its all luck

Actually there are some particuarly fast keepers for whom there is less luck and more skill involved in stopping penalties. Reina is a great example of this. If you remember, last year, Fabregas was in the press saying how hard it was to beat Pepe in penalty situations because he was able to delay movement until after you shot which made him very difficult to beat. Plus there's the consistent record Pepe has had in terms of saving penalties over the past few years.

I think this is a hidden stat already in the game, since when you look at goalkeepers in FM you will notice that their taken/saved ratio is not always proportional to the player ratings we have available on the screen. I don't see any reason why this should be a hidden stat since players have the penalty taking stat which we can plainly see so we can select the best players to take the penalties and like wise why shouldn't we have a stat for goalkeepers to tell us which is better at saving penalties.

Goalkeeper penalty saving abilities are not solely dependent on their concentration, reflexes and etc. and there are many goalkeepers that prove that in real life, goalkeepers that are know for having fumbled the ball, made an error in judgment or some other mistake on more than one occasion but are rock solid when it comes to saving penalties.

Saving them is all luck though at the end of the day. If you get lucky and dive the right way three times on the trot then your a "penalty specialist" its all luck

If that's the case (and its not), then surely you could then argue that scoring them is all luck too:

Player shoots, keeper dives wrong way, goal. "Lucky"

Or,

Player shoots, keeper dives right way, saved. "Unlucky"

The point here is that if a keeper saving a penalty is defined as luck, then so to is a player scoring them and therefore there shouldn't be a penalty taking attribute for outfield players.

You can't tell me that only outfield players are entitled to be lucky?

If an attribute exists for taking penalties (as it does) then one too should exist for saving penalties.

Either that or there shouldn't be a penalty attribute at all, for any player, and it should all be down to "Luck"...

Well, I would never have rated Mark Crossley particularly highly in those attributes, but his penalty saving rate was amazing.

i'd also say there's probably loads of keepers with high numbers for these attributes and aren't very good at saving pens.

i'd also say there's probably loads of keepers with high numbers for these attributes and aren't very good at saving pens.

Petr Cech comes to mind..

There definitely has to be an attribute like this. Saving a penalty is that much different from making saves from open play. However I'd say at the moment it doesn't matter much because in FM the keepers never really do much to save penalties anyway, they only manage to keep one out if it's hit straight at them (or very near them). They never dive the wrong way or save one that's hit near the post.

Saving a penalty is just luck.

Scoring a penalty is surely what takes the skill.

Saving a penalty ain't luck.I'm a keeper and usually you can tell which way the penalty is gonna go by watching the penalty taker's runner up or following by your instinct.

Anyway I think they should have a attribute for saving penalties.

Is not this attribute stored and "visible" in Editor or FMScout or something like that?

Could someone check it in Editor? I am at work and do not have FM here.

Well, I would never have rated Mark Crossley particularly highly in those attributes, but his penalty saving rate was amazing.

Exactly my thought too, although he is the only keeper to save a Matt Le Tissier penalty

Maybe there should be a penalty saving tendancy rating for GKs. If I was a player on there, some of my ratings, such as reflexes and (well, it would be better) reactions, wouldn't be all too good. But, I am very good at saving penalties. I normally play football with my mates and when we do pens, I normally save quite alot, even though I've never played for a team and a few of my mates do (others may do rugby instead). One disadvantage, though, would be that, considering all of the top 4 (excluding Arsenal) have goalies with good PK attributes, shoot-outs between them would last a while, wouldn't they?

reflexes is probably one of the most important reasons!

Robert Green had a good run of not letting any penalties in a while ago iirc

Panthrakikos's ( newly promoted in Greek 1st division ) bench goalie have saved 5 out of the last 8 penalties , also the has saved the last 3 ; he is not anywhere close to a world class goalkeeper but he is very good at this , maybe there should be a stat.

There aren't enough GK ppms in my opinion. not really enough to flesh out the style in which a keeper plays.

As far as I'm aware, 'punching the ball' attribute is actually a tendency and not a skill. Its how much the keeper prefers to punch the ball instead of catching it. So that would sit better under a PPM as well. The problem is, you can't have different shades of PPM, the player either does a PPM, or he doesn't.

I feel PPMs should summarise a players skill as well as give them extra character. If the hidden penalty save attribute is high, the PPM should say good at penalties. if its not it should say, poor at penalties. as a coach, I'd know which keeper was good and which was poor through training, I shouldn't have to wait and find out in a match!

thats why the stats called 'tendancy to punch' isn't it?

but i agree that keepers need to be more fleshed out. it was a revalation when they finally gave keeper specific stats all those years ago. it seems that once again outfield players are being improved apon but not the keepers so much.

I agree and this is something I have thought about before. If an outfield player has a Penalty Taking stat, then a goalkeeper must surely have a Penalty Saving stat.

We see some great keepers like Cech and Buffon, who are not great penalty savers, and then we see some less good goalkeepers like Barthez, Reina & Dudek, (and possibly even a D. James?!) who are all excellent at saving penalties. Barthez had a low centre of gravity and a great leap & athleticism which I think were key to saving penalties, rather than some of the stats you say saving a pen is a combination of. Come on, Barthez or James hardly have good decision making!

YesYesOhYay, were you talking to me?