I’m a broken man. My long rant about it.

[Mitja]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Nope.  My games against underdogs see me enjoy even more possession than usual.  Why?  Because if they want to try to camp in their own half I'll press the living daylights out of them.

I agree there is an issue with how AI managers set themselves up and they fail to press effectively, which is why we see people posting pictures of Man City (or whoever) having less possession than some underdog.  But I'll repeat - what do you expect the underdog to do with the ball if a counter attack isn't on and they aren't under any pressure deep in their own half?  So when you say

It's exactly about letting them do it.

Attacking formations and tactics setup more pressing especially Pep's so i dont think its just about that. In that game for example City had huge defensive issues against 541 diamond and Newcastle were able to dominate possession in central midfield. Second thing is urgency with which both teams played. And that's wrong too. Teams don't play ultra direct football just because they're facing underdogs. Both issues are basic football principles which are currently not implemented well. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

Perfect counter attacks 

The AI seems to just randomly throws roles and duties together. If you are getting countered it's a weakness from the human manager not doing their homework by looking at the opposition team report to see who and where they might be attacking space and if it may be an issue for your system. 

Over 30 seasons with FM19, I know how - when and what to do with counter attacks from AI.

What you don't know is the game has perfect counter attacks even at Vanarama National League or Serbia Second League.

[Mitja]

And again we come to mentality/AI tactics issue. Irl it's usually defensive teams that play more urgent, they rely on quick and direct passing to try to get something from game. No Burnley ever tried to outpass City. And attacking teams usually try to control the game high up the pitch which means more possessional style and thus more patient. But in FM it's the opposite. That means in FM there are football styles that don't even exist in reality. Basic tactical principles in FM haven't changed from CM days and real football evolves on daily basis almost.

[HUNT3R]

38 minutes ago, Mitja said:

And again we come to mentality/AI tactics issue. Irl it's usually defensive teams that play more urgent, they rely on quick and direct passing to try to get something from game. No Burnley ever tried to outpass City. And attacking teams usually try to control the game high up the pitch which means more possessional style and thus more patient. But in FM it's the opposite. That means in FM there are football styles that don't even exist in reality. Basic tactical principles in FM haven't changed from CM days and real football evolves on daily basis almost.

Burnley isn't trying to outpass City. They're trying to not give it away, so they're trying to play safe,while hopefully creating a chance or two themselves. Mentality, again, is not the issue here. It's a basic tactical principle IRL and FM for teams to not want to give the ball away unnecessarily. Maybe even more so when you're the weaker team. 

[Mitja]

Of course it's not trying to outpass but it happens anyway because defensive mentality and defensive tactics are too possessional and patient and this was acknowledged by SI member (urgency). Thats one of the reasons of course.

All defensive tactics irl are quick not safe, especially with lesser teams. Teams giving away the ball unnecessary has more to do with team quality. Can you show one example of defensive possessional football like fm19 produces and where lesser teams outpass elite teams?

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Mitja said:

Of course it's not trying to outpass but it happens anyway because defensive mentality and defensive tactics are too possessional and patient and this was acknowledged by SI member (urgency). Thats one of the reasons of course.

All defensive tactics irl are quick not safe, especially with lesser teams. Teams giving away the ball unnecessary has more to do with team quality. Can you show one example of defensive possessional football like fm19 produces and where lesser teams outpass elite teams?

Riddle me this.

A world class team are playing a bunch of relegation candidates.  The relegation candidates decide to play things cautiously, defending deep, hoping to soak pressure and perhaps get lucky with a break or two of their own.  Maybe a corner and a lucky goal.  They're happy to get a point.

But when the match starts and the world class team lose possession of the ball, the relegation candidates find they don't come under much pressure with the ball in their own half.  They can't target a quick break because the world class team retreat quickly into their own defensive shape and they're clearly not good enough to out pass them to create their own chances.  So what do the relegation candidates do with the ball?

a) Kick it up field anyway, running the risk of giving the ball back to the world class team.

b) Say to the world class team "well if you aren't going to come get it, I'm not going to give it back to you" and just play a bit of keep ball, wasting time, running the clock down and nicking a point.

I know what I'd do.

These teams are not necessarily setting out to play defensive possessional football, it's what they end up doing because of what the opposition does (or doesn't do in this case, ie., pressing effectively).  That screenshot you posted previously doesn't show Newcastle playing a possession game against Man City - 483 passes, 52% possession and zero shots isn't possession football - it shows a complete lack of effective pressing from Man City.

So I ask again - if Man City are going to let Newcastle have the ball, what do you think Newcastle are going to do with it when there is little or no opportunity to counter attack?

Now, that's not to say defending, pressing, AI tactics and a whole host of other things can't be improved (they absolutely can) but lets not confuse defensive possession with a lack of effective pressing.  So when you ask for examples of real life lesser teams outpassing elite teams it's not possible because the elite teams will press the lesser teams effectively.  And that's what's missing in AI Pep's tactics and a lot of our own tactics too.

[CARRERA]

10 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I understand where you are coming from...that weak sides should not be able to execute a slow passing game, and that if they do they should be shut down. And that happens in all my games. Any weak team that tries to play that kind of football invariably ends up with 0 chances because they never see the ball. In fact last season Spurs ended up with 0 chances in 90 minutes of play and they were playing an ultra defensive system. When weaker sides try to do this they never get a chance to pass the ball. Here the question is strategy for the human player. I tend to think the AI manager doesn't know how to execute that kind of strategy because its playbook is too simple. 

I will say one thing though, in reality most successful weak sides in the premiership do try to have a higher possession game in their own half. And they usually do better in terms of short tasing accuracy compared to those relegated. Leicester under Rodgers will be interesting to watch cos they are changing their style successfully with a short passing game as well.  Some of these side do in real life pass slowly in their own half, before shifting up a gear when the right players have it. The same thing happens in the game. The only thing i wish for is a more varied AI manager who knows how to use tactical presets with a bit more panache.

Yes as i said, its not about being able to stop them doing it for most of the time. And i dont know exactly how far your save went already, also im not too much into EPL as Bundesliga is my favourite league, but isnt it strage for you seeing a team like Spurs playing ultra defensive? Its like you said, since AI managers dont really vary their tactics basicly every game looks the same and i also realised that even on a first season experience most teams, even top teams will face you with a rather defensive tactic. 

@herne79 propebly my english is too bad to point out exactly what i am about, but as i follow you and rashidi + some other as content creators (which i appreciate btw) i can see the same things happen to you.  Maybe its even the other way around that top teams passing is too low (or needs to be too direct to even score) compared to underdog teams, in any way the ratio is just bad.

[Robson 07]

10 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

They're trying to not give it away, so they're trying to play safe,

I have to say that playing safe and trying not to give the ball away aren't necessarily tied together.  Playing safe is often territorial meaning just get play away from your defensive third.  Boot it down the other end, have someone contest a 50/50 ball while you push up and reorganise the lines.

Too many people, not just in this thread I hasten to add, are saying the same thing.  Lots of reports saying in their saves Pep wins little and is often sacked.  Similarly people reporting instances of  the weak AI teams with superior possession stats.

Whether that's someone like @Mitja saying defensive strategies are pass heavy or @herne79 pointing to weak pressing from the like of City there is something that is ever so slightly off key with how that is being simulated in the game.  And fair play by the way to all those in this thread standing by that because I think a lot of people are too quick to dismiss stuff as other players tactical inadequacy and are even a little bit mocking in a couple of examples as well.  FM is good but lets not kid ourselves its perfect and I think occasionally some would like to see that acknowledged occasionally or fed back via the moderators.

[Mitja]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

Riddle me this.

A world class team are playing a bunch of relegation candidates.  The relegation candidates decide to play things cautiously, defending deep, hoping to soak pressure and perhaps get lucky with a break or two of their own.  Maybe a corner and a lucky goal.  They're happy to get a point.

But when the match starts and the world class team lose possession of the ball, the relegation candidates find they don't come under much pressure with the ball in their own half.  They can't target a quick break because the world class team retreat quickly into their own defensive shape and they're clearly not good enough to out pass them to create their own chances.  So what do the relegation candidates do with the ball?

a) Kick it up field anyway, running the risk of giving the ball back to the world class team.

b) Say to the world class team "well if you aren't going to come get it, I'm not going to give it back to you" and just play a bit of keep ball, wasting time, running the clock down and nicking a point.

I know what I'd do.

These teams are not necessarily setting out to play defensive possessional football, it's what they end up doing because of what the opposition does (or doesn't do in this case, ie., pressing effectively).  That screenshot you posted previously doesn't show Newcastle playing a possession game against Man City - 483 passes, 52% possession and zero shots isn't possession football - it shows a complete lack of effective pressing from Man City.

So I ask again - if Man City are going to let Newcastle have the ball, what do you think Newcastle are going to do with it when there is little or no opportunity to counter attack?

Now, that's not to say defending, pressing, AI tactics and a whole host of other things can't be improved (they absolutely can) but lets not confuse defensive possession with a lack of effective pressing.  So when you ask for examples of real life lesser teams outpassing elite teams it's not possible because the elite teams will press the lesser teams effectively.  And that's what's missing in AI Pep's tactics and a lot of our own tactics too.

Why do you need to defend something so obviously wrong? 

The pressing thing it is a small piece of puzzle but it's more complicated than that. And you know AI Pep has highest pressing stats which will be even more pronounced in attacking tactics .

First issue is poor defending and pure numbers game in 433 vs 541 Diamond, second thing is urgency with which both teams were playing. If you watched that game you could see City was playing direct counter attacking football and Newcastle tiki taka like style.

 

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Why do you need to defend something so obviously wrong? 

The pressing thing it is a small piece of puzzle but it's more complicated than that. And you know AI Pep has highest pressing stats which will be even more pronounced in attacking tactics .

First issue is poor defending and pure numbers game in 433 vs 541 Diamond, second thing is urgency with which both teams were playing. If you watched that game you could see City was playing direct counter attacking football and Newcastle tiki taka like style.

I don't think you are getting his point and both of you seem to be chopping down the same tree but not seeing each other do it.

Both of you agree that there is something fundamentally wrong with the AI manager's choices. And that's the basic issue with the game. I can seen both of you agreeing. Now what @herne79 is saying is also true, the AI hasn't learnt more sophisticated options, which is my point too. The AI is still too simplistic with how it sets its presets up and more can be done especially with sides like City and the big clubs. My contention is that its too easy for these top clubs to go into a shell when human managers become too successful, which is so funny cos years ago, it would still commit ritual suicide by going gungho. 

The point both of you are making is like looking at the same coin but from different sides. As a human manager I can play a direct counter attacking style of football on ANY mentality. The AI on the other hand has a playbook that is too simple, too one dimensional. AI vs AI matches can sometimes be very predictable, thats because their playbook is simple. The way I see it, its like we just got an engine thats evolving. In previous seasons there was no defensive side, only an attacking side. So any attacking kind of football looked good. Today we find that there is now a bigger challenge to get past defensive sides, some require more imaginative setups and the AI is slowly getting there. Hopefully in FM20 they get the balance right

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Why do you need to defend something so obviously wrong?

Nobody "defends" anything.  People offer alternative view points, explanations and/or different opinions.  It's called "discussion".  You didn't even say what you think it is I'm defending (no need to bother now).

So when you say things like that, you're effectively trying to stop discussion because the only thing it achieves is to dismiss anything the other person says.  And it's one small step away from being insulting.  "Fanboy" is the usual lame follow up.  Be open to other people's opinions and try to understand explanations and other points of view being offered without simply dismissing others who don't simply agree with you.

There is way too much of this type of destructive comment on the forums at present.  If you want to add constructive comments - whether you agree with someone else or not - feel free.  But this type of comment is simply destructive, is designed to end discussion and dismiss other commenters.  It's not the first time you've done this either, nor the first time you've been told this, and it would be quite a positive thing if you re-thought your posting style.

@Rashidi  I know mate .  I was hoping to help others see wider issues than just "defensive possession".  I'll back out of this thread now.

[CARRERA]

I don’t think he was about to insult you @herne79. Sometimes it Is just hard to find the right words for a non native english speaker.

in terms of the topic, i think everybody (at least i do) Knies that it’s not just that one thing but more a result of many different. 

Its just that there are some which are very visible and can be used without many in depth explanation. 

there are some others like let’s say why do won’t defenders cut back their passes to instead cross into a defender. 

or why are Outside midfielders always drift into the box and narrow up the pitch instead of staying wide to provide passing options or support underlapping players

there are some things around which just don’t seem right or are at least pretty hard to fight which leaves you with a feeling of rather fighting the ME then the next opponent especially if you have a clear idea of how you want to play

[Mitja]

8 hours ago, herne79 said:

Nobody "defends" anything.  People offer alternative view points, explanations and/or different opinions.  It's called "discussion".  You didn't even say what you think it is I'm defending (no need to bother now).

So when you say things like that, you're effectively trying to stop discussion because the only thing it achieves is to dismiss anything the other person says.  And it's one small step away from being insulting.  "Fanboy" is the usual lame follow up.  Be open to other people's opinions and try to understand explanations and other points of view being offered without simply dismissing others who don't simply agree with you.

There is way too much of this type of destructive comment on the forums at present.  If you want to add constructive comments - whether you agree with someone else or not - feel free.  But this type of comment is simply destructive, is designed to end discussion and dismiss other commenters.  It's not the first time you've done this either, nor the first time you've been told this, and it would be quite a positive thing if you re-thought your posting style.

@Rashidi  I know mate .  I was hoping to help others see wider issues than just "defensive possession".  I'll back out of this thread now.

Sorry Herne if my post sounded insulting it wasn't my intention!

And I don't really understand why it was destructive post when you try to prove me wrong almost all the time. It's not urgency or mentality thing its not poor AI tactics choice badly implemented into ME. Dismissing problems and playing down peoples thoughts won't help the game to improve. You're not doing much better than me in this discussion. Your explanation the issue is about bad pressing can also be found destructive and dismissive.

Tactical creator has all the tools needed to produce realistic looking games but some aspects which are around since CM days need improvements. Just watch any AI game between big team vs underdog where defensive tactics plays against attacking. And you will see opposite things happening than expected. Why it happens? Urgency and directness play no part? 

[pheelf]

The unrelenting negativity and almost daily scathing criticism of the game are really poisoning the atmosphere of these forums and I can perfectly appreciate where people are coming from when they talk about destructive comments. I see a lot of valid criticisms of the game which in some cases I agree with but at the same time next to nothing is being offered as to what would be better. We all know what the problems are but what are the solutions? Simply saying that a certain aspect of the game (for e.g. mentality) is broken and should be discarded doesn't actually take us any further forward.

I'm not having a pop at anyone but this really isn't the section of the forum to be airing these grievances. It's not a place where you come to have a rant at people who in reality are only trying to offer help. What exactly was the purpose of this thread anyway? To elicit sympathy? It has veered so far off anything which could be considered even remotely useful or constructive in helping the OP to overcome their difficulties with the game I'm left wondering why it's still open.

With that said if I try to bring this back onto a more constructive footing. To be honest, I think the OP problem is more than just tactical in nature. Is it realistic to expect to win trophies in a short time frame with a team like Boavista with 3 giants in the same league? You are going to need a lot of patience and to try and work incrementally over a longer period to improve the team in order to make it competitive with the likes of Porto, Benfica and Sporting. In your latest attempt with them, you lost games which I think are perfectly reasonable for you to have lost but still, instead of accepting the results and trying to understand why you lost those games you rage quit. Aren't Boavista a lower mid-table side in real life?

You say you tried to create a defensive, counter-attacking team but what does that look like? Perhaps you should post a screenshot of your tactic which would facilitate others to chime in and offer help. It would also help you if you reviewed the matches that were played and made notes on what went wrong and why you lost so that at least then you would have a basis to work from when it comes to trying to fix the problems. I think it's important to also bear in mind that sometimes you can do everything right in the buildup to a game and still end up on the losing side. That's just the nature of football management and is no reason to get angry and frustrated. Just accept it, try and learn from it and move on.

All the best

[Robson 07]

21 hours ago, pheelf said:

The unrelenting negativity and almost daily scathing criticism of the game are really poisoning the atmosphere of these forums and I can perfectly appreciate where people are coming from when they talk about destructive comments.

I think forums are always a bit good, bad and ugly.    Overall though I think this has been a decent discussion.  Its ebbed and flow from where it started but that's okay sometimes.  We wear a thick skin and the end result wasn't so bad really.   

[Svenc]

On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 00:07, Mitja said:

On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 16:02, herne79 said:

 

Now, that's not to say defending, pressing, AI tactics and a whole host of other things can't be improved (they absolutely can) but lets not confuse defensive possession with a lack of effective pressing.  So when you ask for examples of real life lesser teams outpassing elite teams it's not possible because the elite teams will press the lesser teams effectively.  And that's what's missing in AI Pep's tactics and a lot of our own tactics too.

 

In parts there seems a confusion between the mentalities and the rest…. the lower Risk spectrum of the mentality isn't wasn't actually paired with an encouragement to Keep Possession: Defenders were/are actually encouraged to clear their lines (untweaked, anyway). It's just that a lower Risk mentality paired with a direct passing instrcution basically translates to: "Play it safe, but by all means CLEAR under pressure." The "Problem" is when that pressure isn't actually on...

That said, I'm not Holding my breath over significant AI improvements. SI know and realize that as soon as the AI is capable of doing something their playerbase isn't (and be it on Occasion Winning a match despite having x less shots on a spreadsheet come the final whistle blown )  -- it's suspected as cheating. As a game dev, this would bug me a lot, and be it because of my "ego" taking over. The Long-term key may be though bringing user Management and AI Management Closer and Closer to one another… (the "Presets" are arguably a step in that direction). You as well as AI can still do a load of balls on this game that doesn't have the slightest to do with top class Football Management, arguably.

[NabsKebabs]

On 02/05/2019 at 16:09, Mitja said:

Sorry Herne if my post sounded insulting it wasn't my intention!

And I don't really understand why it was destructive post when you try to prove me wrong almost all the time. It's not urgency or mentality thing its not poor AI tactics choice badly implemented into ME. Dismissing problems and playing down peoples thoughts won't help the game to improve. You're not doing much better than me in this discussion. Your explanation the issue is about bad pressing can also be found destructive and dismissive.

Tactical creator has all the tools needed to produce realistic looking games but some aspects which are around since CM days need improvements. Just watch any AI game between big team vs underdog where defensive tactics plays against attacking. And you will see opposite things happening than expected. Why it happens? Urgency and directness play no part? 

I disagreed a lot with you on the previous page but I agree there is clear issue in the game where defensive teams keep the ball too well against teams like City. And this is infact an ME issue more so than an AI tactical issue. It occasionally happens to me aswell when I play 433. 4231 naturally presses higher so it doesn't really happen when playing that system. This has actually been acknowledged by SI. I think its down to the poor pressing in the game, where multiple players press the ball too aggressively rather than one guy goes to the ball and the others cut off passing options.

 

[Svenc]

It can also be in inherent ME issue insofar as the ME inherent Pressing is concerned. This goes more so on older Releases, but in particular on deeper Areas of the pitch, the pressure on the ball carrier that WOULD make him clear the ball because of his passing encouragements was never there. I "utilized" this on some FM17ish save so much that for like Five months in-game time, I barely conceded a Goal in the 2nd half/ in particular past the 70th Minute mark. Basically, every time I took the lead, I would them just recycle it. Could naturally be considered an exploit as well.


I cannot see how the AI is ever going to Combat anything, or even manage match specifics, though. From my experience it's never been much coded around what actually happens in a specific match (WHY is the Opposition so easily Holding the ball) -- but rather around it's "Preferences" plus the current scoreline in a match. I don't see how it could much, tbh. At least not without a total rework of how it operates. Actually, the more Options are in the game to consider and to Combine in hopefully holistically Sound ways, the bigger the edge of teh human Player. And given that SI have stated numerous times that their target audience isn't even the "tactical commited".... but the bang average Football fan who "wants to wins sum stuff"... 

[Mitja]

i see plenty of room for improvements in defensive behaviour.

[Beltsu]

On 02/05/2019 at 10:18, pheelf said:

With that said if I try to bring this back onto a more constructive footing. To be honest, I think the OP problem is more than just tactical in nature. Is it realistic to expect to win trophies in a short time frame with a team like Boavista with 3 giants in the same league? You are going to need a lot of patience and to try and work incrementally over a longer period to improve the team in order to make it competitive with the likes of Porto, Benfica and Sporting. In your latest attempt with them, you lost games which I think are perfectly reasonable for you to have lost but still, instead of accepting the results and trying to understand why you lost those games you rage quit. Aren't Boavista a lower mid-table side in real life?

I know had a short fuse with my Boavista save, but I was feeling broken from the overall experience. It's not the results against the big guys that anoyed me, but it was the fact that on 3 oficial matches, I lost on penaltis, couldnt beat a side who played over 30 min. with 10 men, and was losing and had a player sent off so soon. Also add to that the time I invested on the previous save, where I feel that I was unfortunate to be sacked 2x on Valência and Bayer. It was too much for me to bare on those couple of days, hence the rage quit.

Now I started a Newcastle save. Played just 2 matches so far and I watched full matches on 2D view. I usually go for 2D, but I rarely watch full match. I feel like I was able to compreend the game better. BUT, I do feel that many times, players just ignore most of the instructions. I wanted the GK to do short distribution, but he just kept on going for long balls to my striker (TM). Undisciplined little brat...

On those matches I won 2-0 (Southampton) and lost 2-0 (Chelsea). The goals Chelsea scored against me were both because of mistakes from my RB. It is revolting...

Next match, Manchester United at home...

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, Beltsu said:

BUT, I do feel that many times, players just ignore most of the instructions

Would you mind posting a screenshot of your tactic?

[Beltsu]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Would you mind posting a screenshot of your tactic?

Tomorrow maybe. I'm at work right now. :P

 

But still, I changed the GK distribution instructions throughout the match, and he just kept kicking the ball to my striker.

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, Beltsu said:

Tomorrow maybe. I'm at work right now. :P

 

But still, I changed the GK distribution instructions throughout the match, and he just kept kicking the ball to my striker.

Do you use the "Play out of defence" TI in possession?

Btw, you said your striker plays as a TM. While in FM19 TM is less of a ball-magnet than it was in previous versions of the game, he still is some sort of magnet. I am not 100% sure if that's the reason, but might be.

What I noticed in some of my saves though is that GK tends to ignore my instructions as well, but only in the first couple of matches. So I guess it may be due to low respect you have from players at the beginning, especially if your reputation is not high enough.

[Beltsu]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Do you use the "Play out of defence" TI in possession?

Btw, you said your striker plays as a TM. While in FM19 TM is less of a ball-magnet than it was in previous versions of the game, he still is some sort of magnet. I am not 100% sure if that's the reason, but might be.

Wasn't using on the 1st half, but changed to play out of defence and short distribution on the 2nd half. And he just kept kicking it long.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Beltsu said:

Now I started a Newcastle save. Played just 2 matches so far and I watched full matches on 2D view. I usually go for 2D, but I rarely watch full match. I feel like I was able to compreend the game better. BUT, I do feel that many times, players just ignore most of the instructions. I wanted the GK to do short distribution, but he just kept on going for long balls to my striker (TM). Undisciplined little brat...

But when you set a player to Targetman then keepers will generally ignore Team instructions and seek him out with hollywood passes. Its hardcoded. If you dont want that behavior then don't use Targetmen

[Beltsu]

46 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

But when you set a player to Targetman then keepers will generally ignore Team instructions and seek him out with hollywood passes. Its hardcoded. If you dont want that behavior then don't use Targetmen

But I want that behaviour from the wide players, not the GK. As I wanted more control of the game, I instructed him to pass short, but he was in love with Rondon apparently.

Now that you mentioned it, I introduced Rondon at half-time. Before that, my striker was a pressing forward.

[Jean0987654321]

5 hours ago, Beltsu said:

But I want that behaviour from the wide players, not the GK. As I wanted more control of the game, I instructed him to pass short, but he was in love with Rondon apparently.

Now that you mentioned it, I introduced Rondon at half-time. Before that, my striker was a pressing forward.

If you're trying play out of the back with a TM, you're gonna have a bad time. If you want your striker to have Targetman-esque capabilities, then opt for the DLF role and modify the PIs

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

If you want your striker to have Targetman-esque capabilities, then opt for the DLF role and modify the PIs

It does not necessarily have to be a DLF (partly because DLF is a creator type of striker). If he has a player with good TM attributes and wants to utilize his strength and aerial ability, he can also play him as a PFsup/att or even poacher, setting up the rest of the tactic in such a way as to take advantage of his strengths. 

[pheelf]

12 hours ago, Beltsu said:

I know had a short fuse with my Boavista save, but I was feeling broken from the overall experience. It's not the results against the big guys that annoyed me, but it was the fact that on 3 official matches, I lost on penalties, couldn't beat a side who played over 30 min. with 10 men, and was losing and had a player sent off so soon. Also add to that the time I invested on the previous save, where I feel that I was unfortunate to be sacked 2x on Valencia and Bayer. It was too much for me to bare on those couple of days, hence the rage quit.

Now I started a Newcastle save. Played just 2 matches so far and I watched full matches on 2D view. I usually go for 2D, but I rarely watch full match. I feel like I was able to comprehend the game better. BUT, I do feel that many times, players just ignore most of the instructions. I wanted the GK to do short distribution, but he just kept on going for long balls to my striker (TM). Undisciplined little brat...

On those matches I won 2-0 (Southampton) and lost 2-0 (Chelsea). The goals Chelsea scored against me were both because of mistakes from my RB. It is revolting...

Next match, Manchester United at home...

I understand that people get passionate about this game but if it's 'breaking' you then it's really not worth the hassle in my opinion and you'd be better off spending your free time doing something you actually enjoy.

I'm pleased to see that you have taken my advice on board and are trying to watch the matches in more detail in order to learn about your tactic and understand it better. I would encourage you to stop viewing instructions as set in stone ideals which your players religiously follow and rather look at them as tendencies which can only be followed in the right circumstances. If you do that then you can begin to understand why you observe certain behaviours that are undesirable.

For e.g. you are observing your GK punting it long to your Target Man. There are a number of factors which could be contributing to why that is happening (which I could pinpoint more easily when you post your tactic).

1) You're playing with a Sweeper Keeper who has the tendency to try risky and more direct passes especially when on support or attack duties (if you read the role description this is made clear)

2) The Target Man is a ball magnet as others have mentioned

3) You're playing a higher mentality which raises the individual mentality of your GK which increases his risk taking even more

4) All the options the GK has for building from the back are either marked or not within range of a short pass which forces his hand into playing it long or risk losing the ball

As for players making mistakes, well that's pretty much how it works in real life, even elite players make mistakes. Besides Chelsea have better players than Newcastle (in the context of FM) so it's hardly a shock that they beat you. That's a tough run of fixtures and going into those games I'd say 3 points would be a reasonable expectation for Newcastle which you have achieved.

I've posted to others and I'll post the same to you. You need to view things holistically and not as disparate elements. You need to decide how you want to play and gear everything around that. Everything from the formation to roles and duties and the players you have and buy needs to be geared towards that notion of how you want to play. I can see that you haven't done this as you are trying to do things which in reality conflict. Playing a Target Man while trying to build from the back isn't a coherent strategy.

The problem a lot of players seem to struggle with is trying to get everything from one system which is impossible. You can't play direct and short simultaneously, much like you can't be solid defensively while being excellent when attacking, it's a balancing act and I feel people don't always use all the tools available to them. For e.g. utilizing the 3 tactical slots to have 3 very different and distinct styles trained and available to use against different opponents.

I'd like to see your tactic when you have the time to post it.

All the best 

[yolixeya]

5 hours ago, pheelf said:

4) All the options the GK has for building from the back are either marked or not within range of a short pass which forces his hand into playing it long or risk losing the ball

Yep. I'm glad you also mentioned this as this is exactly what happened to me in CL. I don't play with TM, GK was still sending those long balls because it wasn't safe to pass it short. AI can also use "prevent short GK distribution" and also press high.

[Zemahh]

On 28/04/2019 at 13:16, herne79 said:

There are some known UI glitches which really don't help.  Personally I think the whole "Team Fluidity" thing should just be removed from view - it was confusing during beta testing and remains confusing due to the similarity in naming conventions / descriptions.

If by "glitches" you mean the "SI forgot to hide it from view, while the game engine still behaves in the same way", then I agree.

How can you be so sure that the whole Team Shape aspect of the game has been removed completely, when screenshots like that suggest otherwise? Clearly player's individual mentality is affected by Team Fluidity, why else would it change? Personally, I stopped thinking in the Team Shape terms, so I don't care much, but I find it funny how hard some of you guys are trying to convince people that it absolutely doesn't exist anymore.

I struggle to believe that SI can simply wipe out what used to be such an important part of the match engine. They can simplify the Tactics Module and remove the option to change Team Shape independently, but I struggle to believe they got rid of it completely.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Zemahh said:

I find it funny how hard some of you guys are trying to convince people that it absolutely doesn't exist anymore.

I'm not trying to "convince" anyone, merely restate what SI themselves told us all when FM19 launched: https://community.sigames.com/topic/448184-fm19-tactical-changes/.  If you choose not to believe the developers about their own game that's entirely your choice and I certainly wouldn't waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

[jeru]

If its really not still in the game why did SI bother to spend the developer hours in implementing it in the UI and linking it to creative freedom in exactly the way it was before, the code exists to display it in the UI and thats a fact, the team selection screens are new and if it wasn't in the game why write the code for the new screens?  that makes no sense at all, especially as all we ever hear is that SI are a small development team and don't have the resources of larger dev houses.  

[Experienced Defender]

While I agree that team fluidity (label) in FM19 is different from what the team shape represented in previous versions, there is still something that can confuse people. Namely, when team fluidity changes due to a change of duties within the setup, individual mentalities of some players/duties also change, even if you don't change the team mentality. You can see this change when you enter the "Edit player instructions". 

[BasedDarrenMoore]

You wanna get good at this game? ADAPT.

 

This game has become closer to life. A team with only one tactical style will get countered. If all you do is go with rock over and over again, it'll eventually get countered by paper.

 

Look at scout reports. I usually only look at what kind of assists they most often give up. Then I use one of the pre-built tactic styles. Do I win every game? Of course not. But no one does.

 

Expecting one-size fits all tactics is silly. That doesn't exist in football. You can decide to go with one style, but you need a. Players that fit it, and b. to expect to lose a few games because some styles will counter you.

[Gee_Simpson]

2 hours ago, BasedDarrenMoore said:

You wanna get good at this game? ADAPT.

 

This game has become closer to life. A team with only one tactical style will get countered. If all you do is go with rock over and over again, it'll eventually get countered by paper.

 

Look at scout reports. I usually only look at what kind of assists they most often give up. Then I use one of the pre-built tactic styles. Do I win every game? Of course not. But no one does.

 

Expecting one-size fits all tactics is silly. That doesn't exist in football. You can decide to go with one style, but you need a. Players that fit it, and b. to expect to lose a few games because some styles will counter you.

I'm not the OP (but someone who struggles with tactics) but if I used the pre built tactics I would feel like the success wasn't my own, that's probably just me that feels that way though. 

[Rashidi]

8 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm not the OP (but someone who struggles with tactics) but if I used the pre built tactics I would feel like the success wasn't my own, that's probably just me that feels that way though. 

Pre built tactics aren't perfect either, he still needs to tweak them slightly

[FMExperiment]

@Beltsu

I have a template I follow to give myself an edge in FM, since that's what this game is all about, doing your best in every department of FM to give yourself small edges that will lead to overachieving. 

1. Moral management - I did tests with this, repeating the same game 30 times with abysmal, ok and perfect morale. Sure there was variance, but the results were undeniable. High morale is a huge edge. Your preseason must consist of easy friendlies to boost morale as high as possible. During the season do the following. Praise good training and criticize bad training. Be positive if you beat teams, and if you draw or lose against good teams. Be harsh if you draw or lose against a team you should beat. Your aim is to always get positive reactions. Keeping morale at Very Good+ is key in FM.

2. Match fitness - An obvious one that usually fixes itself in the pre-season, but it's important to get all your first team and first choice subs to 100% match sharpness. I usually do 8 or so friendlies against minnows and play 1 team each half. 

3. Tactics - This shouldn't hinder your progress that much as long as it isn't some weird set-up that the game simply doesn't consider "right" and then you lose loads. The default templates are more than enough for success. If you think tactics are your problem, then pick one of the more popular tactics here. If things go bad then you know there's other issues. I don't recommend tweaking/changing tactics loads. This is a game, and a game follows rules. Maxing out tactical familiarity is very important.

4. Players - This is the most important. You have to have good transfer markets. There's no real advice for how other than to have a long term plan for positions you will need to fill and also getting contracts signed either 1 year or 18 months before the end of contract. When it comes to buying players make sure they are actually better than what you already have. Do you use player search for attributes? Here's a tip. Play with the editor, next time you do your transfers and find players before you buy them see how many of those players had higher CA than your current players. If they are the same or god forbid, lower... then you know you aren't good at spotting the right players. When it comes to PA, then get scouts with highest PA possible and have them search for players with excellent or more PA. There will be variance but generally speaking if you have a high PA coach then if he says a player is two leagues above your own then the player is most likely going to have PA higher than anyone in your current squad.

5. Coaches - Max out your physio/sports scientists. It helps injury prevention/recovery. Max out coaching staff attributes so your players improve as much as possible. It's easy and simple.

6. Training - Set individual training positions for each of your players for the relevant role/position they will play in. Over time players attributes will trend towards the most important ones. Young players with high PA will grow into perfect players for these positions. This is why I recommend one tactic and building your team towards that tactic. What happens if you have trained your players towards certain roles and then change those roles? Years of training "undone".

7. Dynamics - The team cohesion stat.. I haven't tested it but it sounds kinda important. It's important to understand it comes from having the same team for a long time. I have had 2 seasons with the same team and 3 new players and it's now almost max'd out. Don't do drastic squad overhauls unless you are really investing in loads of superior players.

8. Ingame tactics - How do you play out your games? I do key highlights on very fast, but I always do the following. Start with attacking if you are favourites or even at home, start with balanced if underdogs or even away. Switch to defensive/balanced/attacking depending on how the game is going. At 70th minute if losing always go very attacking... you have literally nothing more to lose, the game doesn't punish very attacking as much as you would think, it seems to reward it more in my experience. Also shouts - Encourage as soon as you go behind, praise when in front (praise works well when one goal ahead of a good team, two goals ahead of a normal/bad team), get creative/demand more usually works well when drawing, push up in conjunction with very attacking when behind. Max out your match shouts, using them whenever possible, I think you get one every 10 minutes or something. Your goal in every game should be to get more key highlights, constant green reactions to shouts, and be rotating your squad to come into every game with 90+ Match fitness/sharpness, with 100 being preferable. Getting more key highlights is going to be down to a lot of factors outside your control or understandings, but consistently following all the steps 1-7 and ingame tactics should yield results allowing you to overachieve.

Again, I'll refer to the ingame editor. If you used it to keep your match sharpness/fitness at 100% every game, morale at perfect, max out coach/physio stats, tactical familiarity and scour the transfer market for high CA/PA players and follow my simple, basic ingame tactical advice you will probably find you do very, very well. So the aim of the game is the find a way to do these things without the editor, right? Good luck friend. FM isn't a hard game, it's just about doing everything you can to give yourself small edges in every department. I'm not a tactical player, but I usually do very well following the above template.

[Beltsu]

On 11/05/2019 at 21:16, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm not the OP (but someone who struggles with tactics) but if I used the pre built tactics I would feel like the success wasn't my own, that's probably just me that feels that way though. 

That is precisely what I feel, mate.

Besides, all this past years, the tactics I have build from scratch (mostly adapted to the player I had starting on the team) worked well. Never used someone else’s tactics. But this year...

[Beltsu]

@Rashidi, I would like to ask you something.

 

I check your YouTube channel on a regular basis, but I haven’t seen all your videos, so I may be missing something.

 

Have you ever created a counter-attack, direct, non-possession based tactic? Do you, like me, feel that defensive, counter-attacking football is a bit underpowered in this game, as it favours more the “tiki-taka”-like tactics? I have that feeling, as most of my successful spells so far were with possession based, short pass, work into box tactics.

 

Thanks.

[Zemahh]

12 hours ago, Beltsu said:

@Rashidi, I would like to ask you something.

Have you ever created a counter-attack, direct, non-possession based tactic?

Pretty sure he was very successful with an Overload (i.e. Very Attacking) mentality at some point, in his Kingstonian Diaries.

The way I see it, it's easier to create counter-attacking systems on higher mentalities, than it is on lower. When you're an underdog, teams are going to leave all sorts of space behind, coming at you with everything they got and what better way to exploit that, than with a high-risk mentality, that will ask your players to have a more positive approach to the play, looking to penetrate teams, instead of playing it safe and recycling possession? Names and descriptions of mentalities can be quite deceiving sometimes—one would think that positive mentalities are an absolute no-go for underdogs, but it's actually far from that.

Of course, you then also have to counterbalance the tactic defensively, making sure that your out of possession instructions and players' duties are not too aggressive, since positive mentalities will take everything up a notch naturally.

That being said, you can create systems using all sorts of mentality and instructions combinations, so I'm sure you can also create a good counter-attacking system on lower mentalities. However, I think that then you might be more at the mercy of automatically triggered counter-attacks, that trigger automatically when certain criteria is met (read Cleon's The Art of Counter Attacking thread for more), than your actual system, when it comes to offence.