The Art of Counter Attacking

[Cleon]

Read the thread it's explained in the opening posts. Everything is ignored for those players involved in the counter phase for the full duration of the move.

[WarroOxford]

This thread has been an absolute godsend, thank so much for your insight! My predicted to be bottom of the league Gloucester City side are currently up in 3rd and performing brilliantly. I haven't copied everything part for part as lower league football requires some tweaks here and there and bringing in the right personnel isn't so easy, but my side is incredibly difficult to break down for the opposition, and my star left wing-back has caught many teams napping on the break. No matter what tactic I use, I look to try and bring in players with strong mental attributes, and build a squad that will hustle for 90 minutes and make life difficult for ANY team that faces us. I also never realized how important playing players in their strongest and preferred roles really is. In the past I had my own formations and roles and would rarely deviate from that, and the results just weren't coming. Now I'm more picky with my signings and will look for specifics in terms of attributes and role familiarity. I've always embraced the challenge of a new FM game, but threads like these help me to understand it so much easier.

Thanks to this thread I now understand exactly what my players are doing, where they're going and/or going to go, and what tweaks I may need to make on the fly. Thank you for making FM fun again.

[Imperator77]

There is one problem I struggle to get around. I play with a lonely striker in a counter system, usually as a defensive forward or deep lying forward. He links up nicely with the midfield, and under pressure the player in deeper positions are able to find him. Against opponents pressing high up the pitch he's easy prey for aggressive defenders. He's usually first on the ball, but most of the time he gets closed down before he's able to lay it off to support player on the move forward. I've tried to up the tempo a bit, but have not seen big changes. There is always a short time he has got to hold on to the ball as the team transitions from deep defending to attack. His main strengths are movement, teamwork, off the ball, anticipation and composure. As this is the Premier League his technical and physical attributes are a bit low (13-14). A bit unsure if I should train him to become stronger to hold off defenders, or if I should try something else. As Cleon mentions in the opening post, the lonely striker can be tricky to get "right". I've got a second striker that looks like a good F9, but he's struggling badly with his "tries to beat offside trap" ppm. I'm trying to get rid of it through training, but he has failed once already. I do not use attacking midfielders, so the striker needs to be able to work a bit on his own.

[Jean0987654321]

Kind of a negative when playing a counter attacking game. You must have numbers available so that your striker isn't alone when attacking and he can just pass it to when he is about to get closed down. It is natural for pressing teams to close him down. That's why it's always better to get the roles right around that lone striker. I don't know your set up mate but it is something I would look at first

[Firehouse]

Any particular match preparation suited for counters?

On this FM I tend to use defensive positioning, but I always played control/attack, so used defensive as some sort of counter-measure. So now with counter mentality, should I focus on attacking positioning, or should I stick to defensive positioning?

Sorry if this has been asked before, I read most of the thread, but not all of it.

[Cleon]

Any particular match preparation suited for counters?

On this FM I tend to use defensive positioning, but I always played control/attack, so used defensive as some sort of counter-measure. So now with counter mentality, should I focus on attacking positioning, or should I stick to defensive positioning?

Sorry if this has been asked before, I read most of the thread, but not all of it.

It doesn't matter what you choose really, it only gives a very minimal boost for your next game. So just select what you think is best for what you need. Me personally, I don't use match prep.

[Firehouse]

Thanks.

I made counter attacking 442, at least I'm trying to make it

Preseason went very well, but lost my first competitive match due to 2 goals from crosses, which I simply can't stop on this FM, and I tried everything.

Only TI's are exploiting the flanks, as I want that main orgaisers of counter to be wingers. Hence I play with two wingers, both on support duty.

Been thinkering with the two forwards. At first I though that I will use advanced forward, and deep lying one on support. But I wasn't happy with advanced forward due to him seem to be isolated most of the times. So I'm thinking of complete forward on support, as I have player who can play that role.

Will see how that goes.

[Hunter T]

i am trying to develop the following tactic with a team struggling to avoid relegation in Spain's 2nd division (liga Adelante).

Counterattacking-Flexible-fairly wide (no other TIs)

WBLsup-DC/DC both defend-FBRsup

in the DM strata: Anchor-DLPsup

WPLsup-WRsup

AMCsup-DLF sup

Nothing fancy PI-wise, just the two guys upfront moving into channels/roam from position.

The ''problem'' is, that i hardly see any counterattacks (palying on extended), my scoring (90%) comes from

organized attacks starting mainly from the DLP.

Defensively we re ok, we re taking a lot of pressure, but it is difficult for the opponent to break us down.

Any tips on how to ''increase'' couterattacks?

[roggiotis]

If i wanted to keep this formation with 2 DMs ,

the first thing i would do is change the DLP with DM(S) and see how it goes in general,

then both the wide men in WM(S)

the ST , DF(d) or DLF (A) for the reasons Cleon explained,

i don't know about the AMC ,I would experiment

[spankie]

Thanks.

I made counter attacking 442, at least I'm trying to make it

Preseason went very well, but lost my first competitive match due to 2 goals from crosses, which I simply can't stop on this FM, and I tried everything.

Only TI's are exploiting the flanks, as I want that main orgaisers of counter to be wingers. Hence I play with two wingers, both on support duty.

Been thinkering with the two forwards. At first I though that I will use advanced forward, and deep lying one on support. But I wasn't happy with advanced forward due to him seem to be isolated most of the times. So I'm thinking of complete forward on support, as I have player who can play that role.

Will see how that goes.

This is kind of what I'm running for most games with AF and usualy a DF-s. It seems more effective then when I put my DLF in there. I have run a DLF-s and DF-s at the same time once or twice and I'll probably try that again against the bigger club.

I do also use the Slightly Deeper TI to try and tempt the opposition in.

I use CM-d and BWM-s in the middle, the BWM supports attacks but rarely gets into the box so when I get a player good enough for the role I'll change it to BBM. I do have a playmaker I put in against "weaker" opponents or bring on when I think I need a little more creativity in the centre of the park.

[Hunter T]

If i wanted to keep this formation with 2 DMs ,

the first thing i would do is change the DLP with DM(S) and see how it goes in general,

then both the wide men in WM(S)

the ST , DF(d) or DLF (A) for the reasons Cleon explained,

i don't know about the AMC ,I would experiment

changed both the WPL and WR to WM.

seems to work better overall, although i had only two counterattacks (but no goals) in the 5 games since i switched them.

Need more time i suppose.

[roggiotis]

..then maybe instead of DM(S) a Roaming Playm ?

i would put the DM(S) in MC with B2B role

as for the AMC , i think AM(S) is a good choice

[Hunter T]

The AMC is often AM(S) rather than AP, depending on how the opponent plays.

I got no one really suitable for a B2B role.

[roggiotis]

..retrain then

[Jambo98]

Not sure the last few post make much sense without any context? Always puzzles me when there is generic suggestions without explanations of why it might support what a person is trying to do, in a particular instance? Maybe just me!

I had been wanting to write more about this topic for ages (since i posted the screenshots a page or 2 back!) but lack of time and lethargy got in the way. However i have kept playing a counter attacking style both in the offline save i have with West Brom, and the FMO game i have with the same squad. I am certainly learning lots more as i go.......Some musings from me on the topic, in no particular order:

• It is important to keep your expectations somewhat reasonable, as is the case with anything. If you are trying to implement this with a mid table side, then do not be surprised when you lose a few games. Unless you are real top class FM expert, you are not likely to reasonably expect to take Villa to the champions league in season 1, or achieve back to back promotions with Forest Green, or say get Leicester to the top of the table in December..........
  
• The way that a counter attacking tactic plays out will likely look rather different if you are trying to implement it with a top side, as opposed to a mid or small side. Could this work for a top 4 side? Absolutely, but it may look and feel quite different in its execution from how it plays out with West Brom for example.
  
• One of the keys to a successful counter attacking setup is having a good defense. By design, you are going to spend time under pressure and invite the opposition onto you. If you dont have defenders who can handle this, then you are going to be asking for trouble and likely concede so many goals that it will nullify any success you have going forward via the counter. You would likely want DC's with good mental atrributes and a strong keeper. As an example, my West Brom team improved markedly when i replaced Jonny Evans (as most teams would....). I didnt tweak my tactic, i just brought in a defender better able to cope with large amounts of pressure.
  
• Just because you have built a tactic which is counter attacking, does not mean all of, or even the majority of your goals must come from counters. Its an overall style of play. In my West Brom half season i showed on the early page, probably at most 30% of my goals come from what you might call "traditional counter attacks". Some others came in second phases after a counter attack got me up the field, some came from set pieces, some came from regular play. When you build your system, it is key to also think about what threat you might pose when you are not able to counter. There will be long periods in games where counters just do not trigger.
  
• Related to the last point, as a team playing this style it pays to focus on your set pieces. By design, in many cases you might spend less time attacking than with other systems, therefore set pieces represent a really good opportunity to take an advantage
  
• Sometimes goals and chances will come "on the counter" but not in the lovely style we all might have in our heads - We probably visualise counter being triggered and 3 or 4 quick/incisive passes. A chunk of my counters come from one pass into the channel my striker is running. Our defensive setup has drawn enough players forward that the striker can pull into a channel and one quick ball into him puts us on the front foot. Our support players can get forward quickly to give him a passing option and i score somewhat regularly from there.
  
• Used correctly, a winger (or wingers) can be a part of a counter system. I have had success with a combination of winger(s) and WB(s) down one side. They combine well, and i specifically set up this way because my winger also had the PPM "Cuts inside from either wing" which prevents him wasting too many chances by hitting the byline. That said, we do score goals from crosses.
  
• When you use this as a small team, there are going to be games where the opposition are just too good. I recently started up an Athletic save and the fixture list means they play barca in the first 3 games of the season (2 x Super Cup and first La Liga fixture). When you play a really elite team, there are going to be times that inviting them to attack you really plays into their hands. When its Messi/Suarez/Neymar, they will produce moments of magic. In the 3 games, i had a one nil loss via a last minute own goal, a 2 nil loss because they were just to good, and a one all draw where we scored a counter attack goal to snatch a draw. Again, expectations.....
  

As for my setup, i used 4141, and my striker tends to be DLF(a) sometimes switched to a DLF(s). We operate with minimal TI (sometimes none) and minor PI tweaks. It is not the complete system at all, and i find it does rely on quality in the final third. Berahino is a top drawer striker i have found across both saves, notching up 15 - 20 goals in just over half a season.

I also find the line between "counter attack" and "direct play" can sometimes be blurred, but ultimately i want to build a system which brings me a level of success which is above the general expectation of my side. I will build on the core principle of counter, but if sometimes it blurs into direct football, i wont be worried

[GeesusChrist]

I don't seem to be able to get the hang of this at all, I am Curzon ashton and I'm having friendlies against 'lesser opposition' and just getting bombarded with shots and hardly created anything, I have watched full games and It is just turd to watch.

I have no TIs or PI's for the reasons you say, counter, flexible, then the team is as follows: -

GK

FB (s)

DC (d)

DC (d)

Fb (s)

WM (s)

CM/AM both (s)

B2B (s)

WM (s)

DLF (a) - sometimes DF but no chances get created at all and I end up going back to DLF, but it is marginally better

I'm currently in a friendly with Salford, 65 mins, they just scored a goal to make it 1-1, they have had 14 attempts to my 3, at home, I also lost 3-0 to Ramsbottom and 1-0 to Sheffield prior to this game creating next to no chances.

not sure what to do cause I seemed to fail at the possession tactic too!

[roggiotis]

Its a 4-4-1-1 ?

Since you don't have a player in DM position ,i think CM must be defend duty

the AM is AMC or AMC(R/L) ?

[GeesusChrist]

oh yeah sorry I have a Anchor man in DM.

[roggiotis]

personal thought : if its first year ,due to semi-professional situation of the team the players don't train every day so the familiarity of the tactic will not reach 100% even in December ,you must be patient

If you play FMT ,perhaps its because the ability of your players .Thats what i think

[GeesusChrist]

thing that annoys me, I have used loads of other set ups before seeing Cleon's threads, and I have always had better success, even when they are no-where near fluid, they just seem to drop off after about 10 games and I go on a massive losing/drawing streak!

[roggiotis]

this set-up is just an example ,he has mentioned another 2 formations ,the whole point is the philosophy of the counter-attacking,

but if you had better success with other set ups better for you

i play 4-1-4-1 too ,( control or attacking ),and when i am underdog or want to protect the score i change it to counter or defence

[millions]

How about changing the MR and ML to defensive wingers on support duty?

Would it make any improvements?

[drinkmixer84]

thing that annoys me, I have used loads of other set ups before seeing Cleon's threads, and I have always had better success, even when they are no-where near fluid, they just seem to drop off after about 10 games and I go on a massive losing/drawing streak!

Think about this, Leicester city, even though the press had slated them as relegation favorites they're top of the league. After they started having success, teams started respecting them and changed way they setup.

Same thing with FM, teams are changing the way they approach matches with you. Most likely they're staying deep, which means you will have to change your tactic a little bit since more often than not the counter won't be on.

In previous FMs I've been all about possession strategies and I had good success but this is the first year I'm focusing on counter attacking. What I do when facing teams who sit deep is change one or two roles to attacking to help support my striker in the final third.

[ajsr1982]

I am playing a very similar system to the one up at the front of this thread. 4-1-4-1 Counter/Flexible.

GK/D

FB/S - DC/D - DC/D - FB/S

A/D

WM/S - BBM/S - CM/S - WM/S

DF/S or D depending on whether the opposition plays a DM.

Now, I've had a reasonable amount of success with this. Eventually. I am in charge of Ischia, who should by rights be struggling to survive in Serie C. After five years of gradual improvement, I got promoted to Serie B, and in my first season, I'm lying in 6th half way through, despite being tipped to finish rock bottom. Which is great - a huge success in my eyes.

Of course, I'm looking to improve things. I'm very happy with the way things are working. However, I have a nemesis. The narrow midfield. There are two formations in particular that get me into all sorts of bother.

- The 4-3-1-2 narrow

- The 4-2-3-1 narrow

What these have in common is they have a lot of players high up the pitch in narrow positions. There are two obvious approaches to counter this, in my mind.

Option 1 - I can go around them. Even without doing anything to the system (I don't use any TIs), I find that my WMs and FBs are the players that see most of the ball. So my system automatically deals with the issue. However, it falls down on the second part. The pass completion of those players is very low, as all their options are cut off by the congested middle part of the pitch. I've tried the Exploit The Flanks TI, but to little avail.

Option 2 - I can go over them. Either by instructing the GK to kick it long, or using a Target Man up front. Obvious problem here - he gets too isolated if the ball goes forward quickly. I could try going long and getting my midfielders on the 'wrong' side of their midfield to pick up the loose ball, I guess, but it seems a) risky, and b) difficult.

I don't want to move too far away from the system as it stands, because it works well, and hey, it's my chosen philosophy. I am really just looking for some advice on how I might go about tweaking things.

[GlesgaKillie]

I wish I had read this earlier. Fantastic work Cleon. Now onto the blog.

Thank you so much.

[Toffle]

I’m not to sure how many of you pay attention to the roles and duties the AI uses via various skins and add-ons but as a rule they tend to line up something like this with regards to attack duties;

• 0-1 in defensive and counter.
  
• 2 attacking duties in standard.
  
• 3 in control.
  
• 4 in attack.
  
• 5 in overload.
  

Could someone tell me which skin or add-on can I install to see which roles and duties the computer uses? Sorry for the off-topic post.

[Cleon]

Could someone tell me which skin or add-on can I install to see which roles and duties the computer uses? Sorry for the off-topic post.

I'm not sure if there is one for FM16 yet. Best bet is to check the skinning forum.

[Rashidi]

I'm not sure if there is one for FM16 yet. Best bet is to check the skinning forum.

Pretty sure there isn't one at the moment, I've checked last season's ones and they don't have one installed. Good bet would have been Alavanja, but they don't have one this season.

[Toffle]

Thanks for your answers guys, will need some patience then

[vulin]

Hey guys...

Can someone help me creating Diego Simeone tactic (counter 4-4-2)?

Start from the beginning TI...OI..PI...and all the rest..

I tried myself but without success..

Any assistance would be of great help

Thx in advance

[CL78]

Hi Cleon,

Can i just say what another fantastic post and insight you have provided us with here! I was wondering though at the beginning when you talk about TI's etc in your opinion is it probably best to maybe give out personal instruction's to individuals rather than a collective 'close down more' or 'pass shorter'??

I do often give these shout out's to my team but get little reaction if any! could what you spoke about be the reason for this??

[Jean0987654321]

Hey guys...

Can someone help me creating Diego Simeone tactic (counter 4-4-2)?

Start from the beginning TI...OI..PI...and all the rest..

I tried myself but without success..

Any assistance would be of great help

Thx in advance

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445435-Emulating-Diego-Simeone-s-Atletico-Madrid

Where have you been, mate??

[vulin]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445435-Emulating-Diego-Simeone-s-Atletico-Madrid

Where have you been, mate??

tried and does not work...

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

Can i just say what another fantastic post and insight you have provided us with here! I was wondering though at the beginning when you talk about TI's etc in your opinion is it probably best to maybe give out personal instruction's to individuals rather than a collective 'close down more' or 'pass shorter'??

I do often give these shout out's to my team but get little reaction if any! could what you spoke about be the reason for this??

There is no best way. I only use PI's to make the role do something it currently doesn't if I think it'll enhance my overall style of play. The same with TI's, I use them to create a particular style. So it comes down to what you want and what you're creating really.

[Jean0987654321]

tried and does not work...

This is not a plug and play. You need certain players to play that style

[CL78]

There is no best way. I only use PI's to make the role do something it currently doesn't if I think it'll enhance my overall style of play. The same with TI's, I use them to create a particular style. So it comes down to what you want and what you're creating really.

Thanks for that Cleon, i guess it all depends too on whats happening in the match etc.

I sometimes read these videos on Youtube of different peoples channels etc and basically alot of what they say makes sense and one in particular is that you cannot see how a tactic is working or not until about 14 or 15 games into a season, would you agree with that?

I think me personally i probably over complicate things with tactics, TI's & PI's etc when sometimes less is probably better!

[AusBlackCat]

Been messing around for a while with tactics and styles of play. Seems the only thing I can really get to work is a counter attacking tactic.

I'm using Napoli in my current game odd choice I know, but the first soccer ball I ever received was a Napoli ball! Anyway, my current tactic is as follows:

I'm set to counter and flexible. Only TI is work into box, so my players don't shoot from everywhere!

It's quite solid defensively. The BWM doesn't run around as loosely as I thought he would. The DM/D has been quality with intercepting potential attacking moves.

One problem I'm having is that it can be quite toothless in attack at times, I'm at a bit of a loss to what to do to create a few more clear cut chances. Any advice would be great.

[WayneRomney]

The Guardian jorno Jonathan Wilson with a fantastic piece on José Mourinho today.

This made me think of this thread:

“There is no new generation,” Mourinho went on, criticising the Barçajax purists who seem to regard possession-football as the only true way to play (although not Guardiola, a distinction Mourinho tends to ignore). “If you don’t play counter-attack then it’s because you are stupid. Because counter-attack is a fantastic item of football. It’s an ammunition that you have and when you find your opponent unbalanced."

[Jean0987654321]

The Guardian jorno Jonathan Wilson with a fantastic piece on José Mourinho today.

This made me think of this thread:

“There is no new generation,” Mourinho went on, criticising the Barçajax purists who seem to regard possession-football as the only true way to play (although not Guardiola, a distinction Mourinho tends to ignore). “If you don’t play counter-attack then it’s because you are stupid. Because counter-attack is a fantastic item of football. It’s an ammunition that you have and when you find your opponent unbalanced."

I hope he gets the ManU job.

[fudge for hands]

Overall my opinion of setting up in the 4-1-4-1 counter is to try to cheese the match engine into giving you counter attacks. This won't work when playing a low level opponent or somebody who is comfortable keeping 6 men behind the ball at all times. It's also hard to score with 1 guy in the box as you wait for the BBM to show up and provide support, not to mention he'll be knackered at the end of the match for running the length of the pitch constantly.

I have had success with a more direct counter attacking Spanish 4-3-3 in the style of Mourinho's Chelsea.

You can't say that counter attacking doesn't work with multiple players in the opponent's half when the whole point of a counter attack is for your defenders to get the ball forward after an interception, before the opponent has a chance to reset. I accept that the match engine cheese doesn't work in a system like this, however.

What I might do in the 4-1-4-1 is the midfielders need a higher mentality. Attack roles for the wide men and a central midfield trio that takes into consideration the creator-defensive support-holder-runner concepts. A HB-D, CM-S, CM-A may lack the creator but I feel they're solid and I tend to avoid playmakers when looking to counter attack (wide playmakers are nice, though).

[bababooey]

Overall my opinion of setting up in the 4-1-4-1 counter is to try to cheese the match engine into giving you counter attacks. This won't work when playing a low level opponent or somebody who is comfortable keeping 6 men behind the ball at all times. It's also hard to score with 1 guy in the box as you wait for the BBM to show up and provide support, not to mention he'll be knackered at the end of the match for running the length of the pitch constantly.

I have had success with a more direct counter attacking Spanish 4-3-3 in the style of Mourinho's Chelsea.

You can't say that counter attacking doesn't work with multiple players in the opponent's half when the whole point of a counter attack is for your defenders to get the ball forward after an interception, before the opponent has a chance to reset. I accept that the match engine cheese doesn't work in a system like this, however.

What I might do in the 4-1-4-1 is the midfielders need a higher mentality. Attack roles for the wide men and a central midfield trio that takes into consideration the creator-defensive support-holder-runner concepts. A HB-D, CM-S, CM-A may lack the creator but I feel they're solid and I tend to avoid playmakers when looking to counter attack (wide playmakers are nice, though).

I agree with this. I think that top teams will struggle to counter properly via most of the set up's in this thread, simply because, teams won't give them the space necessary to counter into. They'll be more than happy to just sit back, and so you need to get someone else involved in attack (aka, more than 1 attack duty).

But I also think the distinction between "counter" and "counter-attack" is really important. In other words... do you want to just see out a result / play for a nil-nil, or do you want to win games with a counter-attacking style? Your play style needs to have a point to it. Otherwise, why are you even playing the game? So you might be looking to sit back, or you might be looking to win. But "countering" is different for these approaches.

I think Simeone is a really good example of the counter-attacking like FFF is mentioning (and Mourinho at Madrid, etc.) because those teams are set up to get results, not just eek out nil-nil's or 1-0's.

[Cleon]

Top teams can draw the opposition out and can still use the principles in this thread so not sure what you're on about really. Just because someone is deep and defending doesn't mean the principles in here don't or wont work. Remember the set ups are how you play outside of counter attacks, so the natural evolution of the system means you go to a possession based counter attacking game instead. You can still play a successful counter possession game with every single player on a support role. What's important is the roles you use, not the duties like is being suggested.

[vasilli07]

Been messing around for a while with tactics and styles of play. Seems the only thing I can really get to work is a counter attacking tactic.

I'm using Napoli in my current game odd choice I know, but the first soccer ball I ever received was a Napoli ball! Anyway, my current tactic is as follows:

I'm set to counter and flexible. Only TI is work into box, so my players don't shoot from everywhere!

It's quite solid defensively. The BWM doesn't run around as loosely as I thought he would. The DM/D has been quality with intercepting potential attacking moves.

One problem I'm having is that it can be quite toothless in attack at times, I'm at a bit of a loss to what to do to create a few more clear cut chances. Any advice would be great.

Higuain is going to be very isolated not only because of his duty but also his PPM. His PPM of trying to beat the offside trap will won't help him much as he will always be on the shoulder of the last defender. I will also try changing BWM into a BBM too. A BBM will still do his defensive duty but also support the attack abit more.

[Jean0987654321]

Overall my opinion of setting up in the 4-1-4-1 counter is to try to cheese the match engine into giving you counter attacks. This won't work when playing a low level opponent or somebody who is comfortable keeping 6 men behind the ball at all times. It's also hard to score with 1 guy in the box as you wait for the BBM to show up and provide support, not to mention he'll be knackered at the end of the match for running the length of the pitch constantly.

I have had success with a more direct counter attacking Spanish 4-3-3 in the style of Mourinho's Chelsea.

You can't say that counter attacking doesn't work with multiple players in the opponent's half when the whole point of a counter attack is for your defenders to get the ball forward after an interception, before the opponent has a chance to reset. I accept that the match engine cheese doesn't work in a system like this, however.

What I might do in the 4-1-4-1 is the midfielders need a higher mentality. Attack roles for the wide men and a central midfield trio that takes into consideration the creator-defensive support-holder-runner concepts. A HB-D, CM-S, CM-A may lack the creator but I feel they're solid and I tend to avoid playmakers when looking to counter attack (wide playmakers are nice, though).

I had a similar shape to this in my dafuge save recently but the Wingers were in the MR/ML positions. Glad to see someone with a similar shape in this thread

[WayneRomney]

I hope he gets the ManU job.

That makes one of you

[Deego619]

This has been a great thread, thank you all for helping me create a style of play that I'm really enjoying.

Currently Brighton, first season won promotion. Second season stayed up, and towards the end of that season with safety guaranteed I began to adopt this style of play. A bit of a disclaimer but it took me almost two seasons to bring in the right personnel to play this way, and my play now in the fourth season is hugely different to when I first started it. Don't start playing this way and think you can do it right away with a 10 Aggression center back or a playmakery winger.

Mentality/TIs are the same as the OP.

However, from tweaking and various experimenting I feel this tactic is slowly become my own, but I still pay great homage to Cleon and to an extent Jambo98, but I'll get to that later on.

Still looks quite similar to the OP but I make various changes depending on whom I'm facing. Usually both my wingers are on the winger role with support duties and I like them to run at the defences (who as my club rep improves, are getting deeper and deeper), so I look for pace and "knocks ball past opponent" PPM. Against top 4 teams especially away from home I put them back to wide midfielders as I don't want to risk losing the ball from my wingers attempting to take on better quality opposition full backs.

I experimented a lot with the CM/S role, but eventually I kept it as it was. A DLP sat off too much and AP didn't offer me the work rate I wanted.

Defensive full backs are a must. Don't think you can shove a converted winger here and expect fireworks. Essentially just pace/acceleration and standard defensive attributes (aggression and bravery included). Center backs must extremely physical, aggressive and brave too.

The BBM is by far the most dangerous player in the system and it takes inspiration from Jambo98's famous 4-5-1 thread from FM 15 where he discusses in great detail the "Central Winger". A player who can use his dribbling ability to run past the striker. It took over a season of tweaking to find the right PIs and player to make this work. But currently I have Jorge Correa who is just a joy to watch, but I'm getting worried because he has a 20m clause for Champions League clubs. He usually picks up the ball close to the halfway line, uses his PPM "Runs with ball often" to start running at the opposition, ending up in the channels thanks to his "moves into channels" PPM. From this point he either goes wide and puts in a dangerous cross or uses his "Plays one-twos" PPM with the striker or winger to create dangerous movement around the box. I decided due to these PPMs I'd only use one PI "Dribble More". I must emphasise it's a joy to watch, and even in games where the team does poorly or he doesn't contribute goals/assists, Correa is still getting 7+ ratings consistently.

Currently top of the league after 8 games, winning 7 and losing (can't win 'em all) a game to Derby (if anyone could tell me decent ways of defending corners, I'd appreciate it). Conceding only 3 goals, 2 from corners and 1 from Richmond Boakye wondergoal. Kept clean sheets away to Man City and Liverpool.

Thanks for the great thread Cleon.

P.S: This season is going kinda great. I've been playing this game for 7+ years and this has been my favourite season. Only 4 goals conceded in the league. Posting this because my squad has become decimated with injuries and I don't think it'll last, the closest I've ever been to the park the tank achievement. Correa is out for the rest of the season .

P.P.S: Yup, it happened. No Park the tank yet . Even though we won, we conceded 75% more goals than we had all season to this point. My OCD is annoyed, but I'm being selfish now.

[theeyeofthetiger]

Thank you Cleon for opening my eyes to how FM16 needs to be played. Fantastic thread and very interesting philosophy which has brought the fun back into the game.

Guys this is most certainly NOT a defensive tactic setup at all - 8 games in as Hull City i'm top - scoring 14 goals and conceding just 2 goals. In my last game against a team in 4th I had 24 shots with 14 on target - my only gripe is I only won 3-0....

[Cleon]

This has been a great thread, thank you all for helping me create a style of play that I'm really enjoying.

Currently Brighton, first season won promotion. Second season stayed up, and towards the end of that season with safety guaranteed I began to adopt this style of play. A bit of a disclaimer but it took me almost two seasons to bring in the right personnel to play this way, and my play now in the fourth season is hugely different to when I first started it. Don't start playing this way and think you can do it right away with a 10 Aggression center back or a playmakery winger.

Mentality/TIs are the same as the OP.

However, from tweaking and various experimenting I feel this tactic is slowly become my own, but I still pay great homage to Cleon and to an extent Jambo98, but I'll get to that later on.

Still looks quite similar to the OP but I make various changes depending on whom I'm facing. Usually both my wingers are on the winger role with support duties and I like them to run at the defences (who as my club rep improves, are getting deeper and deeper), so I look for pace and "knocks ball past opponent" PPM. Against top 4 teams especially away from home I put them back to wide midfielders as I don't want to risk losing the ball from my wingers attempting to take on better quality opposition full backs.

I experimented a lot with the CM/S role, but eventually I kept it as it was. A DLP sat off too much and AP didn't offer me the work rate I wanted.

Defensive full backs are a must. Don't think you can shove a converted winger here and expect fireworks. Essentially just pace/acceleration and standard defensive attributes (aggression and bravery included). Center backs must extremely physical, aggressive and brave too.

The BBM is by far the most dangerous player in the system and it takes inspiration from Jambo98's famous 4-5-1 thread from FM 15 where he discusses in great detail the "Central Winger". A player who can use his dribbling ability to run past the striker. It took over a season of tweaking to find the right PIs and player to make this work. But currently I have Jorge Correa who is just a joy to watch, but I'm getting worried because he has a 20m clause for Champions League clubs. He usually picks up the ball close to the halfway line, uses his PPM "Runs with ball often" to start running at the opposition, ending up in the channels thanks to his "moves into channels" PPM. From this point he either goes wide and puts in a dangerous cross or uses his "Plays one-twos" PPM with the striker or winger to create dangerous movement around the box. I decided due to these PPMs I'd only use one PI "Dribble More". I must emphasise it's a joy to watch, and even in games where the team does poorly or he doesn't contribute goals/assists, Correa is still getting 7+ ratings consistently.

Currently top of the league after 8 games, winning 7 and losing (can't win 'em all) a game to Derby (if anyone could tell me decent ways of defending corners, I'd appreciate it). Conceding only 3 goals, 2 from corners and 1 from Richmond Boakye wondergoal. Kept clean sheets away to Man City and Liverpool.

Thanks for the great thread Cleon.

P.S: This season is going kinda great. I've been playing this game for 7+ years and this has been my favourite season. Only 4 goals conceded in the league. Posting this because my squad has become decimated with injuries and I don't think it'll last, the closest I've ever been to the park the tank achievement. Correa is out for the rest of the season .

Great to see you taking the original concept and making it fit your own ideas. A select few seem to think I've put up a tactic to download and miss the purpose of the thread and how it's intended to be used. So it's great to see you doing well by incorporating the ideas from this thread into your own strategy. It's also good to see you still evolving it to become even better too. I think a lot can forget that you work towards something in most cases and can't play the fully intended philosophy from the off. You can start doing the ground work instantly but you still have to work hard to get stuff to where you want it to be

Ah I feel you with the clean sheets. The other day I went 19 without conceding and then against Corinthians I scored an own goal

[Cleon]

Thank you Cleon for opening my eyes to how FM16 needs to be played. Fantastic thread and very interesting philosophy which has brought the fun back into the game.

Guys this is most certainly NOT a defensive tactic setup at all - 8 games in as Hull City i'm top - scoring 14 goals and conceding just 2 goals. In my last game against a team in 4th I had 24 shots with 14 on target - my only gripe is I only won 3-0....

Nice to see you are making this kind of set up work for you

[Bigpapa42]

Great post, JDeeguain. Some great insight. Cleon mentioned the player attributes that he would target as key in players that will work most effectively, but its great to reinforce that. It can really make a difference in how a tactic functions if the players don't quite fit what they are being asked to do. I've used a counter approach similar to the OP with Hull City and run into that. I don't know that I fully recognized it as a limitation, but I definitely do now. The wide defenders are more attacking wingback types than center backs who can play wide and have some speed and dribbling. The wide mids are either more slow playmaker or wide forward types than wide mids with pace. PPMs are another aspect that can come into play, either positive or negative.