The Art of Counter Attacking

[m.u.f.c 1878]

What roles would you give in a 352.In the pairs guide it says a base 352 is

Gk d

Cd x

Cd c

Cd x

Wb s

Rpm s

Wb a

Cm a

Bwm d

Dlf s

Af a.

That's three attacking roles.What 2 should I abolish.The striker ideally needs to stay, so change the cm a to b2b s?.But then box to box along side a bwm will both naturally roam from their positions and the rpm s.Rpm s best as anchor def.Or a support role preferred there?.

[noikeee]

im aware hes not a man united player but stats wise hes not that bad surely so whats the harm in giving him a try. he cost £275k so not a bad loss to make. granted hes not good but unless you give them a try you never know right??

We've all made bad signings, there's no shame in that. You asked why were you losing, I just pointed out a very likely reason why you might be losing.

just out of curiosity who would be in your united team same tactic position by position

Quick glance at Utd's team and if you want to use Cleon's exact tactic I'd line up something like this:

G/D - De Gea

FB/S (DL) - Rojo

WB/S (DR) - Darmian

CD/D - Jones

CD/D - Smalling

A/D - Carrick

WM/S (ML) - Young or Blind (if retrained)

CM/S - Schneiderlin

BBM/S - Schweinsteiger or Fellaini

WM/S (MR) - Valencia or *maybe* Mata (retrained) if you're feeling very adventurous.

DLF/A or DF/D - Rooney

Yeah there's not much space for creative superstars in a setup like this. Don't see where Depay and Martial could possibly fit other than ST, where even then Rooney in theory would be far better due to his defensive abilities.

I don't think a plan like this suits Man Utd at all tbh, but if Depay/Martial perform better than expected, or if you're willing to part with them, and you find some more fitting players for ML, MR and maybe another of the midfielders, it's not unthinkable.

[johnnyyakuza78]

O

If you are sending the ball straight to the strikers and then thinking about having more players up the pitch to ping direct balls to, you aren't playing on the counter. You are simply playing a direct long ball type of game for either a striker to latch on to, a striker to hold up the ball to wait for support and / or passing it direct to some advanced players to annoy the opposition defence.

That can be very effective, but it's a different way of playing.

So is it not possible to get countering behaviour playing this way. I'm still unclear why a counter attacking move can't be started by a direct ball out to a forward player.

[RTHerringbone]

O

So is it not possible to get countering behaviour playing this way. I'm still unclear why a counter attacking move can't be started by a direct ball out to a forward player.

Because if you play a fast, direct pass out before the AI has moved forwards, you fail to trigger the counter which prompts your players to burst forward. It's all about luring men forward so there are fewer people between the ball carrier and the AI goal. That's what triggers a counter attack in FM. There's a lot of semantics associated that people aren't getting, but the gist is hold the ball deep, lure the AI forward to create that numeric imbalance, and watch it go.

[johnnyyakuza78]

Because if you play a fast, direct pass out before the AI has moved forwards, you fail to trigger the counter which prompts your players to burst forward. It's all about luring men forward so there are fewer people between the ball carrier and the AI goal. That's what triggers a counter attack in FM. There's a lot of semantics associated that people aren't getting, but the gist is hold the ball deep, lure the AI forward to create that numeric imbalance, and watch it go.

Ok yes that makes sense.

But if you have set your team to defend deep, forget having possession and let the opposition have it, then surely the nature of that will draw them out. At that point a direct ball out would trigger a counter. Maybe it's semantics but many teams play like this, call it park the bus , defensive or counter attacking, surely they are just a sliding scale of similar styles of play.

[Jean0987654321]

If you are sending the ball straight to the strikers and then thinking about having more players up the pitch to ping direct balls to, you aren't playing on the counter. You are simply playing a direct long ball type of game for either a striker to latch on to, a striker to hold up the ball to wait for support and / or passing it direct to some advanced players to annoy the opposition defence.

That can be very effective, but it's a different way of playing.

Yea

Playing Route One =/= playing counterattacking soccer

[Jean0987654321]

I am a little late in managing to read through this thread in full (some of the irrelevant to topic replies are hard going!), but wanted to say a thanks to Cleon - It is a very well explained and enlightening post IMO. It really made me go back to basics and think about how "what i want to achieve" and "how i am building a side" mesh together. I fully admit that i have been struggling woefully with FM16 thus far and this topic help clear the fog a bit in my head, as well as having some great insights.

In FM15 i used a system which scored its share of counter attack goals, but was possibly not a complete counter system. However what i found was pleasing on the eye (and on the score sheet) was using a large number of attacking roles within what looks like quite a defensive system (451 on standard mentality). It supported the ask of counter attack moves (without claiming it to be a complete counter system) quite well last year. This year however, the improvements mean that (probably rightfully), it did not play out on screen the way i expected it to.

Reading the thread, i observe a lot of people who study the OP, decide to copy it to their team / save and then complain that it doesnt work, or they cant get it work. Makes me shake my head.......However, i read it, considered the save i am embarking on at the moment and asked myself 2 key questions:

Q1) Is this the type of football which i would want to play? E.G. does it fit with my philosophy on the game and my managerial style?

Answer - Yes, to an extent. Despite the fact that i rigidly used the same system on a lot of saves in 15, i am, at heart, a pragmatist. If i had started a save as Real, i would probably not use this approach. But the save i am focused on at the moment is with a bottom half side in a tough league. Pragmatically, it is likely to be an approach which delivers results (if it is implemented and understood correctly, and subject to Q2 below)

Q2) Does my squad have the right type of players for this style?

Answer - Yes, broadly. I am a bottom half side, so i will never have guys who would make the "counter attacking world 11", but i have a mix of skills which suggests my players are better suited to this than to other styles, and one or two players who could thrive in it. I ticked back to say i have players who are good at crossing in the wide areas, i have a couple who can dribble and are fast, i have good mental traits and a few other things.

So having asked myself those 2 things, then and only then do i decide "yes, i can actually use some of this". Even then though, copying the OP would be almost entirely pointless and most likely lead to failure. For me it is about taking the principles and the things i have learned from reading the OP (and the subsequent answers in the thread from Cleon and one or two others - Herne and RTH mainly) and using them to build my own counter attacking tactic. There is every chance that the core formation will look similar, as will a couple of other things but that is fine. Just as i am not going to copy, nor am i deliberately going to use something different just to avoid "looking the same" - there is a reason this works well for Cleon afterall.

So having started to build a system, i have a couple of key questions or points i would be interested to discuss, in the context of counter attacking

a) How do people handle keeper distribution in a counter attacking system? It has the potential to play a nice part in it - Often times the method of "winning the ball" deep in your own half is it ending up in your keepers hands. If he can then help launch a counter then that is a bonus. My thought here is around quick throws. Long kicks wont work for me, as (if my understanding is right) the outcome is unlikely to be the triggering of a counter attack. Rolling it out to a Defender might work if that defender is able to then quickly move the ball to a point where you get into a counter situation, but that is not always easy. My goal would be to, at times, have the keeper throw the ball over the first line of attackers to help trigger a counter?

Goal kicks i am less fussed with, since it is pretty much impossible in the ME to trigger a counter from a goal kick (IRL you might be able to with the ball beign given quickly back to the keeper who immediately takes the kick - i dont think the ME can replicate that very minor nuance)

b) Long shots - My own experience is that my basic counter tactic did encourage this a bit. Depending on the type of player i have, this is not always a bad thing. In this particular save though, none of the players who were taking the long shots had the ability to make any success of it, therefore it was a simple addition of 3 x PI of "shoot less" and problem solved, no more complex than that. I could have looked at why they were shooting, but when i looked at the type of scenarios it looked very much like something where a nudge in the players decision making would make a difference, rather than a scenario where the player had absolutely zero other options (in the later case, the PI would not make a difference or be the solution).

c) Type of striker - Reading Cleon's enganche(s) thread made me think back to something i was a big advocate of in FM15 - Using a player type to change how a role behaves. In my squad i have one stiker who is fast, can dribble, good technique and finishing / composure are just fine. The second striker is more a target man type. He is big, strong, good touch. Can still finish and has composure, but fundamentally a different type. With the right thought and analysis of the opposition and how a game is going, i can change our style just by changing the player. No tweaks to the role or duty or PI. I did this last year alternating between Raul Garcia and Iker Munian as lone strikers - That is an example of 2 very different players who will take prescribed role and play it out very differently.

d) PPMs - I am a big believer that these really shape your system. Be interested to hear what types of PPMs people think compliment (and contradict) a system like this?

A) I do use the PIs Distribute Quickly/Take Long Throws. The goalie sometimes quickly kick it out but I get some sort of attack after.

B) Not a problem at all. That seemed to be fixed in this year's game. Hamez Wilson scored a worldy for me against Bayern, tho

C) Usually use a CF or DLF backed up with a False 10

D) Play One-Twos to everyone not a defender or GK and then use Runs With Ball Often for Wingers

[Bigpapa42]

Ok yes that makes sense.

But if you have set your team to defend deep, forget having possession and let the opposition have it, then surely the nature of that will draw them out. At that point a direct ball out would trigger a counter. Maybe it's semantics but many teams play like this, call it park the bus , defensive or counter attacking, surely they are just a sliding scale of similar styles of play.

That's the point. If you sit deep, defend, get possession, and hoof it long, that isn't allowing the counter-attacking to develop. You are not going to have a defender hoof it long and see 4 or 5 of your players chase up the pitch after a longball. They'll rarely get there. That longball has a high probability of turning possession back over, especially if you only have one player high who can fight for it. If half your squad ran off chasing it, they are now hopelessly out of position. The counter that's triggered is a more controlled but still rapid attack, moving the players rapidly and playing the ball into space.

[johnnyyakuza78]

That's the point. If you sit deep, defend, get possession, and hoof it long, that isn't allowing the counter-attacking to develop. You are not going to have a defender hoof it long and see 4 or 5 of your players chase up the pitch after a longball. They'll rarely get there. That longball has a high probability of turning possession back over, especially if you only have one player high who can fight for it. If half your squad ran off chasing it, they are now hopelessly out of position. The counter that's triggered is a more controlled but still rapid attack, moving the players rapidly and playing the ball into space.

Ok but just because it's not a controlled counter and is a bit primitive, does that mean it's not a counter? Defenders on lower mentalities passing becomes more direct, so on some level a counter will be started by a more direct ball. If that direct ball is too a deep lying striker instead of a midfielder does that suddenly stop a counter from occurring?

If players are chasing after a longer ball after defending deep, is that really much different than countering.

All I'm saying is that defending deep, gifting possession to the opposition, keeping shape.. Are all elements that could be in a countering side, if the method of getting the ball forward to start the counter is longer does that preclude it from being a counter?

[noikeee]

Ok but just because it's not a controlled counter and is a bit primitive, does that mean it's not a counter? Defenders on lower mentalities passing becomes more direct, so on some level a counter will be started by a more direct ball. If that direct ball is too a deep lying striker instead of a midfielder does that suddenly stop a counter from occurring?

If players are chasing after a longer ball after defending deep, is that really much different than countering.

All I'm saying is that defending deep, gifting possession to the opposition, keeping shape.. Are all elements that could be in a countering side, if the method of getting the ball forward to start the counter is longer does that preclude it from being a counter?

It's a counter in real life footballing terms but not a counter in FM match engine terms. A counter in FM is a special automatic setting that detects the opposition is lacking in numbers at the back, and makes all of your players disregard their roles and run upfront as quickly as possible to take advantage of it.

What you're describing is more like what I was seeing in my tactic with an advanced forward, a winger on attack and a AMC, we just tried to hit through balls for these attacking players as soon as possible regardless of whether the opposition were down on numbers or not, and I never saw the players on support role suddenly disregarding their roles and running upfield like in Cleon's screenies, so it pretty much never triggered that FM automatic counter mode.

[Bigpapa42]

Ok but just because it's not a controlled counter and is a bit primitive, does that mean it's not a counter? Defenders on lower mentalities passing becomes more direct, so on some level a counter will be started by a more direct ball. If that direct ball is too a deep lying striker instead of a midfielder does that suddenly stop a counter from occurring?

If players are chasing after a longer ball after defending deep, is that really much different than countering.

All I'm saying is that defending deep, gifting possession to the opposition, keeping shape.. Are all elements that could be in a countering side, if the method of getting the ball forward to start the counter is longer does that preclude it from being a counter?

noikeee answered this almost perfectly. This same conversation came up on the previous page in much the same manner.

Think of a full-on counter-attack as a triggered event in FM terms. As detailed by Cleon in the opening posts, it creates a specific reaction from the players. A reaction that is more effective in FM16 than in previous versions. Which is why this thread was made - to detail how it works and how to create a foundation to take advantage of that type of event. Counters can happen in other ways - whether the long-ball your are talking about, counter-pressing, etc - but they are not the FM specific counter-attack event this thread is about.

[Cleon]

I am a little late in managing to read through this thread in full (some of the irrelevant to topic replies are hard going!), but wanted to say a thanks to Cleon - It is a very well explained and enlightening post IMO. It really made me go back to basics and think about how "what i want to achieve" and "how i am building a side" mesh together. I fully admit that i have been struggling woefully with FM16 thus far and this topic help clear the fog a bit in my head, as well as having some great insights.

In FM15 i used a system which scored its share of counter attack goals, but was possibly not a complete counter system. However what i found was pleasing on the eye (and on the score sheet) was using a large number of attacking roles within what looks like quite a defensive system (451 on standard mentality). It supported the ask of counter attack moves (without claiming it to be a complete counter system) quite well last year. This year however, the improvements mean that (probably rightfully), it did not play out on screen the way i expected it to.

Reading the thread, i observe a lot of people who study the OP, decide to copy it to their team / save and then complain that it doesnt work, or they cant get it work. Makes me shake my head.......However, i read it, considered the save i am embarking on at the moment and asked myself 2 key questions:

Q1) Is this the type of football which i would want to play? E.G. does it fit with my philosophy on the game and my managerial style?

Answer - Yes, to an extent. Despite the fact that i rigidly used the same system on a lot of saves in 15, i am, at heart, a pragmatist. If i had started a save as Real, i would probably not use this approach. But the save i am focused on at the moment is with a bottom half side in a tough league. Pragmatically, it is likely to be an approach which delivers results (if it is implemented and understood correctly, and subject to Q2 below)

Q2) Does my squad have the right type of players for this style?

Answer - Yes, broadly. I am a bottom half side, so i will never have guys who would make the "counter attacking world 11", but i have a mix of skills which suggests my players are better suited to this than to other styles, and one or two players who could thrive in it. I ticked back to say i have players who are good at crossing in the wide areas, i have a couple who can dribble and are fast, i have good mental traits and a few other things.

So having asked myself those 2 things, then and only then do i decide "yes, i can actually use some of this". Even then though, copying the OP would be almost entirely pointless and most likely lead to failure. For me it is about taking the principles and the things i have learned from reading the OP (and the subsequent answers in the thread from Cleon and one or two others - Herne and RTH mainly) and using them to build my own counter attacking tactic. There is every chance that the core formation will look similar, as will a couple of other things but that is fine. Just as i am not going to copy, nor am i deliberately going to use something different just to avoid "looking the same" - there is a reason this works well for Cleon afterall.

So having started to build a system, i have a couple of key questions or points i would be interested to discuss, in the context of counter attacking

a) How do people handle keeper distribution in a counter attacking system? It has the potential to play a nice part in it - Often times the method of "winning the ball" deep in your own half is it ending up in your keepers hands. If he can then help launch a counter then that is a bonus. My thought here is around quick throws. Long kicks wont work for me, as (if my understanding is right) the outcome is unlikely to be the triggering of a counter attack. Rolling it out to a Defender might work if that defender is able to then quickly move the ball to a point where you get into a counter situation, but that is not always easy. My goal would be to, at times, have the keeper throw the ball over the first line of attackers to help trigger a counter?

Goal kicks i am less fussed with, since it is pretty much impossible in the ME to trigger a counter from a goal kick (IRL you might be able to with the ball beign given quickly back to the keeper who immediately takes the kick - i dont think the ME can replicate that very minor nuance)

b) Long shots - My own experience is that my basic counter tactic did encourage this a bit. Depending on the type of player i have, this is not always a bad thing. In this particular save though, none of the players who were taking the long shots had the ability to make any success of it, therefore it was a simple addition of 3 x PI of "shoot less" and problem solved, no more complex than that. I could have looked at why they were shooting, but when i looked at the type of scenarios it looked very much like something where a nudge in the players decision making would make a difference, rather than a scenario where the player had absolutely zero other options (in the later case, the PI would not make a difference or be the solution).

c) Type of striker - Reading Cleon's enganche(s) thread made me think back to something i was a big advocate of in FM15 - Using a player type to change how a role behaves. In my squad i have one stiker who is fast, can dribble, good technique and finishing / composure are just fine. The second striker is more a target man type. He is big, strong, good touch. Can still finish and has composure, but fundamentally a different type. With the right thought and analysis of the opposition and how a game is going, i can change our style just by changing the player. No tweaks to the role or duty or PI. I did this last year alternating between Raul Garcia and Iker Munian as lone strikers - That is an example of 2 very different players who will take prescribed role and play it out very differently.

d) PPMs - I am a big believer that these really shape your system. Be interested to hear what types of PPMs people think compliment (and contradict) a system like this?

A) If your keeper has the ball it's unlikely the opposition are that out of position. They will have regained their position or just about to I'd have thought on majority of occasions. However that's not to say having a more adventurous keeper can't work. You can even teach him a PPM to start counter attacks early, there is an option for that this year.

B) A slightly higher decision making attribute can make all the difference!

C) I always mention this in nearly everything I write. It's very important for me to have players who play the role different to the others I have for the same position. What's the point of having like for like? I'd much rather bring someone else on or start someone else and know they'll play the role different.

D) There are many different combinations you could have. It all comes down to the shape you'll use eventually though.

[Cleon]

Ok but just because it's not a controlled counter and is a bit primitive, does that mean it's not a counter? Defenders on lower mentalities passing becomes more direct, so on some level a counter will be started by a more direct ball. If that direct ball is too a deep lying striker instead of a midfielder does that suddenly stop a counter from occurring?

If players are chasing after a longer ball after defending deep, is that really much different than countering.

All I'm saying is that defending deep, gifting possession to the opposition, keeping shape.. Are all elements that could be in a countering side, if the method of getting the ball forward to start the counter is longer does that preclude it from being a counter?

Noikeee is spot on with his answer.

Plus something else to think about. If you are defending deep and then win the ball back deep in your own half, when you go direct you'll bypass majority of your own players. So when that happens where will the support come from? In your example a direct ball from the back to your deep-lying forward would in most cases isolate the player because he wouldn't have any support and I find it hard to believe the AI would have over commit it's defenders, especially central ones. So I can't see how you'd benefit from that or be able to make use of it? If you wasn't deep and had players pushed further up the field then I can see it working but then were in the realms of direct play and fast transitions rather than actual counter attacking football.

If you want to play that way then you need to change the system and use one that allows for that and can offer support instantly in those situations. What I write about in this thread, isn't about that style though.

[Southern Buddie]

I'd love to see more threads like this one. One for each mentality perhaps?

[Cleon]

I'd love to see more threads like this one. One for each mentality perhaps?

No chance I'm afraid, I don't have much time these days and it takes a while to create a big thread like this. I've already covered defensive and counter attacking though.

[Ackter]

One thing I'd say you're missing with the important attributes is balance. There's going to be a lot of situations with fast counter attacks where a player's balance will be imperative.

[Pedroig]

What roles would you give in a 352.In the pairs guide it says a base 352 is

Gk d

Cd x

Cd c

Cd x

Wb s

Rpm s

Wb a

Cm a

Bwm d

Dlf s

Af a.

That's three attacking roles.What 2 should I abolish.The striker ideally needs to stay, so change the cm a to b2b s?.But then box to box along side a bwm will both naturally roam from their positions and the rpm s.Rpm s best as anchor def.Or a support role preferred there?.

You want to play defensive football with better than average chance of triggering counters?

If so, WB's both on support, get rid of playmaker roles (this is just based upon my observation that the team will only NOT pass to playmaker if no clearly better option is available.) If you change BWM to BBM and RPM to DMs you should be fine with the CMa and AFa... You really don't want a Anchor in front of your middle defender, they get bunched up too much in my experience. I am fond of playing the following back three though, especially with a BPD with Regista like attributes:

CDx

BPDc

CDx

[noikeee]

In my next job if I've got the players and not too many wingers I'm gonna try to apply these principles to a 3-6-1ish formation and see what happens... In theory it should work, though in this match engine with the overpowered crosses, I'm concerned giving out space to the opposition down the flanks whilst sitting in your half most match might be a bad idea.

[Welshace]

Extremely impressed Cleon.. you may have saved my FM career, been struggling playing as the underdogs for weeks, clearly i've been playing a way to high line and generally looking at it the wrong way. Started as Pompey and had a match with Watford.. really impressed in how we shut them out. The attacking threat wasn't quite there but that's to be expected given my level of players..

The manner in which the side restricted Watford to longshots and half chances was great, will certainly be using this as a base to expand upon.

[Bigpapa42]

In my next job if I've got the players and not too many wingers I'm gonna try to apply these principles to a 3-6-1ish formation and see what happens... In theory it should work, though in this match engine with the overpowered crosses, I'm concerned giving out space to the opposition down the flanks whilst sitting in your half most match might be a bad idea.

The first tactic I used on FM16 was a counter 4-4-2 narrow diamond. It actually scored quite a bit in attack, with the two forwards linking up nicely. But it was rather leaky for a tactic that was supposed to be, fundamentally, defensive. I suspect you would have some issues. Especially with the wingbacks further up the pitch and not helping quite as much defensively. But if you have good central defenders and a midfielder helping out, I don't think you would be conceding constantly.

[luka_zg]

Great thread.

I'm playing 4-1-4-1 anyway, it's the formation that gave me the most succsess on this FM. Although I play mostly control and standard and have good results.

But I have to say, and that's smoething I've said a few times about this ME, this thread also shows that counter attacking game is overpowered.

Cleon destroyed a prem league side with league 1 side 3-0. And now I've read examples of people winning against Real Madrid with below average (at best average) sides, Carpi dominating Roma and Lazio, Swansea going to CL etc..

I'm sorry but to me that's the clear sign that something's wrong. I'll try this approach too I must say, but let's admit that it's not quite normal to take an average side, make them play defensive football and win or draw most of the games.

[Cleon]

Great thread.

I'm playing 4-1-4-1 anyway, it's the formation that gave me the most succsess on this FM. Although I play mostly control and standard and have good results.

But I have to say, and that's smoething I've said a few times about this ME, this thread also shows that counter attacking game is overpowered.

Cleon destroyed a prem league side with league 1 side 3-0. And now I've read examples of people winning against Real Madrid with below average (at best average) sides, Carpi dominating Roma and Lazio, Swansea going to CL etc..

I'm sorry but to me that's the clear sign that something's wrong. I'll try this approach too I must say, but let's admit that it's not quite normal to take an average side, make them play defensive football and win or draw most of the games.

Counter attacking isn't defensive football, understand that first and foremost. I could have just as easily beat them playing attacking football too or with a standard approach. So if I can do that, then surely that makes your comment about counter attacking being over powered nonesense? Plus if its over powered how come not everyone is having success using it? Using words like over powered etc makes me think you've been playing too many MMO's over the years....

You frustrate me as a poster because you post great at times then at other times it's like you know nothing about football in general at all. You post great then always follow it with some naive comments, it's a shame really. I mean, with the way you post it's like a League One side has never hammered a Prem Side before.............

[video=youtube_share;DPVbLMPMypc]

Let's take one result against good opposition then take it out of context and assume everyone can do it every single time. Which is basically what you're spouting.

[herne79]

let's admit that it's not quite normal to take an average side, make them play defensive football and win or draw most of the games.

Not that it is defensive football, but here is the top of the current English Premier League, thanks to some superb counter attacking football by Leicester.

And don't even get me started on West Ham away vs Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal this season .

[johnnyyakuza78]

Lol, if anyone is playing defensive football in that table its Utd. They are basically on defensive mentality with 'retain possession' switched on permanently.

..and no attack roles!

[luka_zg]

Counter attacking isn't defensive football, understand that first and foremost. I could have just as easily beat them playing attacking football too or with a standard approach. So if I can do that, then surely that makes your comment about counter attacking being over powered nonesense? Plus if its over powered how come not everyone is having success using it? Using words like over powered etc makes me think you've been playing too many MMO's over the years....

You frustrate me as a poster because you post great at times then at other times it's like you know nothing about football in general at all. You post great then always follow it with some naive comments, it's a shame really. I mean, with the way you post it's like a League One side has never hammered a Prem Side before.............

[video=youtube_share;DPVbLMPMypc]

Let's take one result against good opposition then take it out of context and assume everyone can do it every single time. Which is basically what you're spouting.

One freak result is just showing that it's not impossible. But when you take idk..Swansea and finish in the top4 using counter attacking system,over 38 games, I'm sorry. It's possible but highly unlikely. And on top of all that, add some more posts and screens from this thread which show people having awesome results with average teams and voila. Either that or AI is extremely stupid and plays ultra attack whenever playing against weaker team.

[Cleon]

One freak result is just showing that it's not impossible. But when you take idk..Swansea and finish in the top4 using counter attacking system,over 38 games, I'm sorry. It's possible but highly unlikely. And on top of all that, add some more posts and screens from this thread which show people having awesome results with average teams and voila. Either that or AI is extremely stupid and plays ultra attack whenever playing against weaker team.

I can post at least 5 other examples of Sheffield United during their cup runs last year and the year before too. It's not one freak result, it happens more often than you think. You only have to follow the EPL this season to see how effective counter attacking can be against sides who are aggressive.

Not everyone is having the same success on FM either, for every screenshot you see in this thread of success you can quickly look around the forum and find 30 others using similar methods all struggling. The thing is, people only see what they want to see and believe everyone can have the same success regardless.

Plus if counter attacking was overpowered like you claim, then why did you create a counter attacking thread seeking help? It's easy and over powered remember;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/440792-A-little-tip-for-my-4-4-1-1

[ajsr1982]

I'll jump on this, because I'm one of those who have been struggling to implement it. I have, to a certain extent, turned a corner with it, however.

To set the context, I'm playing in Italy, in Serie C/C. Roughly the equivalent of League 2 in England. My team should, on balance, be finishing just below mid table. Half way through the season, I'm in third place. Quite frankly, I'll take that. In previous seasons I've finished 11th, 12th and 14th. So yeah, I've been struggling with it.

Here are a few things I've noticed.

This style pans out a bit differently in Italy. Why? Well, because it's rare to find teams who will attack you. Many of the systems rely on a deep, compact midfield, and look for a front two to do something special and nick a goal. Essentially playing me at my own game. That means the system often becomes a very cautious keep-ball exercise, much like United are playing right now. This was being further exacerbated by me attempting to play out from the back, which I realised was actually a problem. My keeper now kicks it long to my (often isolated) lone forward. To me, this isn't a problem. The system is aimed at getting the opposition to come forward and over-commit, so giving them the ball back now and then is kind of inherent to how things need to go. That said, there are still plenty of 0-0 draws.

I was playing a back four of FB/S CD/D CD/D WB/A. The wing back was great going forward, but causing uproar defensively. Dropping him back to a FB/S made a huge difference.

Let's talk about playmakers. I'm increasingly coming around to the notion that the use of a single playmaker is a bad idea. Unless he is so obviously miles better than the rest of your team that you wouldn't want the ball going elsewhere. In my team, I have three central midfielders who are all reasonably good with the ball at their feet. They are different kinds of players, but they can pass it. Why channel the play through one of them in particular? I have a player in central midfield who would nominally be the playmaker. However, I've created a pseudo-playmaker using the CM/S duty and a 'More Risky Passes' PI. There is definitely greater variety to my play.

And now, the most important part. Personnel.

In previous seasons, I was trying to get this system to work thinking that the system was king. It's not. You need to put the right type of players in it. I had it set up with three players in the midfield area that could be described as 'flimsy.' We all like creative players, don't we? It won't work in this system. My two wide midfielders had terrible defensive capabilities and I suffered as a consequence, conceding from crosses. I've since changed them to players who are equally adept at full back as they are at wide midfield. It's much better. It was pretty galling too, as my right midfielder was by best player on paper.

Likewise, think about the full backs. Think about how you're playing. You're playing narrow, you're playing deep. the opposition are going to be crossing the ball in a lot. and you need to be able to deal with it. My full backs are both six feet or more, and they are basically centre backs that can play at full back.

Finally, the forward. He's stuck up there on his own, often with little or no support. He needs to be able to hold the ball up. You don't need a bona fide target man (in a DLF role), but he needs to have strength and composure. You wouldn't ever play someone like Defoe in that role, would you?

I still have lots of games where I'm frustrated by this not working as well as I'd like. Games where I'm under the cosh. But, I often grind out a 0-0 in those games. Games where I only manage one shot on target from seven attempts. Nor would I say that I see that many counter attacking goals, but then, I'm not necessarily set up that way. I'm in the third tier of Italy though; I cant find good, defensive players with the pace and technical ability to break forward, so I had to choose one or the other. However, I have the best defence in the division, conceding roughly 0.5 goals per game.

[Bigpapa42]

One freak result is just showing that it's not impossible. But when you take idk..Swansea and finish in the top4 using counter attacking system,over 38 games, I'm sorry. It's possible but highly unlikely. And on top of all that, add some more posts and screens from this thread which show people having awesome results with average teams and voila. Either that or AI is extremely stupid and plays ultra attack whenever playing against weaker team.

Is over-performing automatically always an issue? To a huge level, sure. If someone is winning the Champions League in season 1 with BATE or winning the Prem undefeated with Aston Villa with no transfers, sure. That's pretty unrealistic. But a club like Swansea is predicted for - what - mid-table? So with a solid, logical tactic that many clubs try to use in reality, Swansea would be "over-performing" by somewhere between 5 and 8 spots on the table. And don't forget, its not just about how you perform that dictates the table but also the other clubs. Plenty of people have posted results where bigger Prem clubs have performed below expectations so it might not be "taking" a spot from a big club like Arsenal or Chelsea, but them giving it up by shoddy performance and you fight it out with the likes of Tottenham to claim it.

If its not possible in the game to over-perform at all, what's the point of playing? If you can really only have the club performing to expectations or below, the game is severely lacking. And at least the over-performing here is based on a solid, logical approach. Its not something like scoring 6 goals a match with a 5 forward system.

Beyond the tactic itself, there are a lot of factors that will affect (positively and negatively) either over or under performing. For both user and AI. Factors such as morale, squad personality, unhappy individuals, new signings not settling, and of course injuries.

[luka_zg]

I can post at least 5 other examples of Sheffield United during their cup runs last year and the year before too. It's not one freak result, it happens more often than you think. You only have to follow the EPL this season to see how effective counter attacking can be against sides who are aggressive.

Not everyone is having the same success on FM either, for every screenshot you see in this thread of success you can quickly look around the forum and find 30 others using similar methods all struggling. The thing is, people only see what they want to see and believe everyone can have the same success regardless.

Plus if counter attacking was overpowered like you claim, then why did you create a counter attacking thread seeking help? It's easy and over powered remember;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/440792-A-little-tip-for-my-4-4-1-1

And tbh I ditched this system because of being constantly exposed with counter attacks due to not having player in DM position.

[Cleon]

And tbh I ditched this system because of being constantly exposed with counter attacks due to not having player in DM position.

But counter attacking is over powered in your own words. But now it didn't work for you and you was being exposed? So in actual fact it seems like you need the right system and setup to pull it off after all.

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Cleon quick question here. What do you think about support duty wide forwards with roam from position PI and support duty lone forward(maybe CF) with move into channels PI in possession based approach ? Are not they enough to make chances ? or Will they make forward run when opportunity arive like in this thread ? I know u will create a thread for possession approach if you find time but I would know your opinion. Thanks

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Also I read your forward role thread and it quite great. But Could we change it with spesific approach. Probably support duty lone striker need kinda runner on wing or centre midfield but what I mean here can we restrict some requirement for sake of some requirement ? or Will it reduce the balance so badly ? I hope I could explain myself.

[Cleon]

Cleon quick question here. What do you think about support duty wide forwards with roam from position PI and support duty lone forward(maybe CF) with move into channels PI in possession based approach ? Are not they enough to make chances ? or Will they make forward run when opportunity arive like in this thread ? I know u will create a thread for possession approach if you find time but I would know your opinion. Thanks

If you have a lone striker and the rest of the players are at distance, why would you have him roam from position? He can't score goals if he isn't in and around the box. How can he lead the line?

Also I read your forward role thread and it quite great. But Could we change it with spesific approach. Probably support duty lone striker need kinda runner on wing or centre midfield but what I mean here can we restrict some requirement for sake of some requirement ? or Will it reduce the balance so badly ? I hope I could explain myself.

Please try not to mix threads up, all questions on that should be posted in that thread. If not it gets really confusing.

[ibrahim.akbyk]

You are right sorry I send you a PM

[Welshace]

Swansea are pretty much set up to be a great counter attacking side with their strength and pace going forward and solidity at the back... not surprising at all that they could get a few places above their expectations...

[Cleon]

Swansea are pretty much set up to be a great counter attacking side with their strength and pace going forward and solidity at the back... not surprising at all that they could get a few places above their expectations...

Funnily enough, Swansea are the side I've used for the next article on possession. I think people might be surprised at what can happen with a very attack minded tactic based on keeping possession

[the SLC]

Swansea are pretty much set up to be a great counter attacking side with their strength and pace going forward and solidity at the back... not surprising at all that they could get a few places above their expectations...

i had the same thought. it didnt seem to work well with man united but with swansea im doing rather well. currently lying in 5th place. not many clean sheets but im winning so far

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Funnily enough, Swansea are the side I've used for the next article on possession. I think people might be surprised at what can happen with a very attack minded tactic based on keeping possession

That one. I can not wait for reading

[Der General]

Funnily enough, Swansea are the side I've used for the next article on possession. I think people might be surprised at what can happen with a very attack minded tactic based on keeping possession

Does it include pressing, or just focuses on retaining possession and patient attacking?

[OlivierL]

I'm using a defensive forward(defend role) and thinking about adding the hold up ball PI .. I have four midfielders on support role. Makes sense for a counter tactic or not ?

[RTHerringbone]

I'm using a defensive forward(defend role) and thinking about adding the hold up ball PI .. I have four midfielders on support role. Makes sense for a counter tactic or not ?

Absolutely. He can't do it all by himself so if the midfielders end up bombing forward when the counter is triggered, he can hold the ball and look to play it into their paths.

[King Costly]

Sorry to bring this up again but I'm pulling my hair out. Is there anything you guys do different from the usual 4-1-4-1 counter setup to stop goals from crosses? I feel like I've tried everything.

The system is really solid centrally and I'd say over 75% of goals conceded are straight from crosses (the wonder crosses from 40 yards out that arc beautifully to the back post...). I know it's something not right in the ME but I've seen people post about brilliant defensive records. Is there something I'm missing?

Granted, I'm managing in the Greek first division but my full backs are very solid for this level and my wide men have good defensive stats too - nothing seems to stop the bleeding!

[RTHerringbone]

Sorry to bring this up again but I'm pulling my hair out. Is there anything you guys do different from the usual 4-1-4-1 counter setup to stop goals from crosses? I feel like I've tried everything.

The system is really solid centrally and I'd say over 75% of goals conceded are straight from crosses (the wonder crosses from 40 yards out that arc beautifully to the back post...). I know it's something not right in the ME but I've seen people post about brilliant defensive records. Is there something I'm missing?

Granted, I'm managing in the Greek first division but my full backs are very solid for this level and my wide men have good defensive stats too - nothing seems to stop the bleeding!

According to SI, 40% of assists are from corners or crosses. If you can upload a save where the system you use is not contributing to the issue, and three quarters comes straight from crosses, they would love to look at it - but it does not belong in this thread really:

, please do bear in mind that a great deal of goals in reality result either directly or indirectly from crosses. Roughly 33% of assists tend to come from crosses, add in corners to the equation and you have 40% of all goals resulting from crossed balls.

[King Costly]

According to SI, 40% of assists are from corners or crosses. If you can upload a save where the system you use is not contributing to the issue, and three quarters comes straight from crosses, they would love to look at it - but it does not belong in this thread really:

I understand that and the purpose of my post was to merely ask if anybody had found a way to counteract goals conceded from the wings in this system (which I thought would be relevant) rather than the general state of crossing in this ME.

Seeing as I've just taken over at the Greek team, I went back and looked at the goals conceded since I've been national team manager of Liechtenstein.

I've taken charge of 13 games and conceded 26 goals - not bad for a team of our standard. I went back and watched all 26 conceded and 22 of them have come from crosses. Four were directly from corners and three from free kicks. The rest have come from crosses from the wings (mainly quite deep crosses rather than from the byline).

I would expect a team like ours in this system to concede more goals from out wide than through the centre but 85% (albeit a relatively small sample size)? Looks like this save file may need uploading.

[OlivierL]

Oddly enough, here's my current system with Sporting Lisbon. Same Mentality, same Team Shape, same lack of TIs. Top of the league after 19 games; we have conceded two goals. Two

I'm thinking about changing my CM(support) to DLP(support) .(my other MC is box to box) Is using a playmaker a risk for a counter attack tactic ?

I'm also using two limited dc's , they use direct passes, should be not a problem i suppose ?

[noikeee]

I understand that and the purpose of my post was to merely ask if anybody had found a way to counteract goals conceded from the wings in this system (which I thought would be relevant) rather than the general state of crossing in this ME.

Seeing as I've just taken over at the Greek team, I went back and looked at the goals conceded since I've been national team manager of Liechtenstein.

I've taken charge of 13 games and conceded 26 goals - not bad for a team of our standard. I went back and watched all 26 conceded and 22 of them have come from crosses. Four were directly from corners and three from free kicks. The rest have come from crosses from the wings (mainly quite deep crosses rather than from the byline).

I would expect a team like ours in this system to concede more goals from out wide than through the centre but 85% (albeit a relatively small sample size)? Looks like this save file may need uploading.

Please post this over in the bug report forum in the thread where people are complaining about crosses, we need all the help we can get (read: evidence and peer pressure ) for SI to fix these issues.

[max787]

I understand that and the purpose of my post was to merely ask if anybody had found a way to counteract goals conceded from the wings in this system (which I thought would be relevant) rather than the general state of crossing in this ME.

Seeing as I've just taken over at the Greek team, I went back and looked at the goals conceded since I've been national team manager of Liechtenstein.

I've taken charge of 13 games and conceded 26 goals - not bad for a team of our standard. I went back and watched all 26 conceded and 22 of them have come from crosses. Four were directly from corners and three from free kicks. The rest have come from crosses from the wings (mainly quite deep crosses rather than from the byline).

I would expect a team like ours in this system to concede more goals from out wide than through the centre but 85% (albeit a relatively small sample size)? Looks like this save file may need uploading.

Are your fullbacks actually any good in the air? My whole back line has a minimum of 16 for jumping and heading and I haven't had too many problems from crossing.

[OlivierL]

Currently playing with aldershot in L2 in my pre season :

Can u offer some advice please to improve my current clear cut chances and shots on target (i'm having a lot of 0-0 in pre season and had a lot of them in my last ten games in Conference last season) please ? It is working fine defensive wise , i see counters , but a lot of my games are bad attacking wise (maybe because of the lack of good players(media prediction 21 last season, media prediction 24 now in L2).

GK (d) : PI - quick trow

DL (fullback support)

DC (limited Def)

DC (limited def)

DR (fullback support)

DMC (anchor defend) : pi tackle harder

ML (wide mid support) : pi shoot less

MC (box to box support) : get further

MC (DLP supporter) : first i had Central midfielder support but thought (not tested it yet) to change this to DLP support ?could this improve my counters and way of attacking?

MR (wide mid support) : pi shoot less

SC (def forward defend) : hold up ball

using counter and flexible and only use low crosses as Ti because i have a 'small' striker.

[Cleon]

Currently playing with aldershot in L2 in my pre season :

Can u offer some advice please to improve my current clear cut chances and shots on target (i'm having a lot of 0-0 in pre season and had a lot of them in my last ten games in Conference last season) please ? It is working fine defensive wise , i see counters , but a lot of my games are bad attacking wise (maybe because of the lack of good players(media prediction 21 last season, media prediction 24 now in L2).

GK (d) : PI - quick trow

DL (fullback support)

DC (limited Def)

DC (limited def)

DR (fullback support)

DMC (anchor defend) : pi tackle harder

ML (wide mid support) : pi shoot less

MC (box to box support) : get further

MC (DLP supporter) : first i had Central midfielder support but thought (not tested it yet) to change this to DLP support ?could this improve my counters and way of attacking?

MR (wide mid support) : pi shoot less

SC (def forward defend) : hold up ball

using counter and flexible and only use low crosses as Ti because i have a 'small' striker.

Ignore clear cut chances as the way they work in game doesn't actually mean it was an easy chance.

Focus on the players in the build up to moves and see what the positions are like as the players are shooting. Are players shooting because they have no other options? Are the support players offering proper support etc.

[OlivierL]

Ignore clear cut chances as the way they work in game doesn't actually mean it was an easy chance.

Focus on the players in the build up to moves and see what the positions are like as the players are shooting. Are players shooting because they have no other options? Are the support players offering proper support etc.

They are actualy not shooting a lot (average 10 shots and +- 2 on target) .. i win my games or draw them 0-0(and i'm always the underdog , even in conference) So maybe i'm ok..

Would u advice to use a playmaker(DPL support) won't they(defenders,wingers) use him to much to pass in stead of quickly counter ?