Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[lam]

Aye I tutored them with people who had better determination. I used Lloris for Butland, Parker for Adryan and Dembele for Ademilson

#

I think it's a crime how low Parkers influence is......... he'd be a tutor GOD if it was higher.

[Hoarau]

I'm gonna sound like a broken record but I'd like to echo the statements of those who've stumbled into this thread and been given a new lease of life, for too many versions I've tried in vein to make something myself and for it to fail so I'd resort to downloading someone else's tactic and try to plug and play, where's the win button again!?

After reading every post in this thread I really took a step back and actually thought about football, this game and what I wanted from it. In no way shape or form have I became "good" now but the key is I'm putting in the effort, looking at things I neer co considered before and all importantly I'm learning as I play.

I feel FM13 after all these years playing CM/FM will be a game to learn on then go into FM14 as the type of manager I should have been, an open minded and ever developing base.

I'm currently working with the much lauded 4-1-2-2-1, suited constantly to my players, oppositions and of course in game situations. My other formation is very interesting to me and its all credit to cleon's brief mention of a Libero, it sort of lines up as a 1-2-2-3-2..if you will. Both are countering bases as I've came to accept this as a strong attacking basis.

Thanks to you fine gents for you work which has changed how I play this game. Hopefully I can be a part of this great thread and any future discussion in this Libero enigma..

[Cleon]

I'm gonna sound like a broken record but I'd like to echo the statements of those who've stumbled into this thread and been given a new lease of life, for too many versions I've tried in vein to make something myself and for it to fail so I'd resort to downloading someone else's tactic and try to plug and play, where's the win button again!?

After reading every post in this thread I really took a step back and actually thought about football, this game and what I wanted from it. In no way shape or form have I became "good" now but the key is I'm putting in the effort, looking at things I neer co considered before and all importantly I'm learning as I play.

I feel FM13 after all these years playing CM/FM will be a game to learn on then go into FM14 as the type of manager I should have been, an open minded and ever developing base.

I'm currently working with the much lauded 4-1-2-2-1, suited constantly to my players, oppositions and of course in game situations. My other formation is very interesting to me and its all credit to cleon's brief mention of a Libero, it sort of lines up as a 1-2-2-3-2..if you will. Both are countering bases as I've came to accept this as a strong attacking basis.

Thanks to you fine gents for you work which has changed how I play this game. Hopefully I can be a part of this great thread and any future discussion in this Libero enigma..

I love posts like this, not because you thanked me but because you've took the advice onboard and rather than try and copy what I did (which a lot try to do and fail), You've took the ideas and applied them to your own save. It makes the time put into creating this thread all the worth while for me

[ThunderZtormDK]

I love posts like this, not because you thanked me but because you've took the advice onboard and rather than try and copy what I did (which a lot try to do and fail), You've took the ideas and applied them to your own save. It makes the time put into creating this thread all the worth while for me

So what is it then, is this game really simple with no need for tinkering, or do you need to tinker and adapt? You and wwfan seem to be contradicting yourselves on this point pretty much constantly.

Simple question here:

Will I or will I not be able to get decent success by setting a basic, logical tactic WITHOUT bothering with OIs, shouts, weather/pitch condition, opponent tactics and all that other fluff that I will never, ever care about.

[lam]

So what is it then, is this game really simple with no need for tinkering, or do you need to tinker and adapt? You and wwfan seem to be contradicting yourselves on this point pretty much constantly.

They 'might' be contradicting eachother (though I don't believe that), but they are certainly not contradicting themselves. They both have a certain way of approaching the game.

Simple question here:

Will I or will I not be able to get decent success by setting a basic, logical tactic WITHOUT bothering with OIs, shouts, weather/pitch condition, opponent tactics and all that other fluff that I will never, ever care about.

In my view.... NO, not a reliable tactic. My tactic doesn't change to much now, BUT there are games I would have lost if I had not made changes.

They key isn't to make changes, it's to make the right one. Sometimes this can be as simple as bring on new players with the same instructions and other times I might be changing four or five duties.

[wez007]

You mean basic things a manager would do ?? or we not playing Football Manager??

[Cleon]

So what is it then, is this game really simple with no need for tinkering, or do you need to tinker and adapt? You and wwfan seem to be contradicting yourselves on this point pretty much constantly.

Simple question here:

Will I or will I not be able to get decent success by setting a basic, logical tactic WITHOUT bothering with OIs, shouts, weather/pitch condition, opponent tactics and all that other fluff that I will never, ever care about.

Please explain how I am contradicting myself?

As for the 2nd part of the question, I don't think you can no. You'll have to adapt to something to be consistent. By adapting mean if you play a short passing game then when the pitch becomes wet your game will be penalised and not be as effective, so you'd have to do something simple like go more direct. Or if you come up against a formation and it has no cover on the wings, if you don't take advantage of this then you are missing out on a big advantage. And so on.

[Hoarau]

^ I have no real merit when it comes to this discussion but I can only share what I've felt I've learnt.

Weather, oppositions tactical switches, opposing teams player fitness etc etc are all things I've started looking at and watching how they affect games, everything is a "veriable" and came change how a game will play out. A boggy December pitch will not react well with "Barca style" passing games.

Looking at opposing formations give me, after taking on board the fine gents in this thread, the opportunity to take advantage and punish any weakness I now can quite clearly see...I just wasn't looking before.

I'm sure you can have success with the basics but for longevity and sense of achievement the realistic approach of studying every possible avenue before a game is now a must. The tactics and formations will follow from that for me now.

[braddockmatt]

Hello, i require some help i am beginning a new save with a poor Reading side. I have taken a lot from this thread and thought i would challange myself to create my own tactic without just simply downloading a tried and tested one. I went straight to the team comparison page and it wasnt happy reading(no pun intended) !! In 90% of the attributes we were in the bottom 4/5. I was expecting us to be poor on a few fronts but this is worse than i expected. 20th place for decisions,20th for overall passing,18th for work rate, 19th Teamwork.

In my Defence catorgry out of the 8 attributes none of them was about 16th and even more 7 of the 8 where in the bottom 3 !

Midfield : 20th for passing,creativity,tech and decisions, however we were 5th for stamina in our midfield.(something i want to exploit)

Att: 4 out of the 8 in bottom 3, Finishing 20th, movement 19th, pace 18th. heading though was a reasonable 11th along with a 7th place for our forwards jumping ability.

So, i thought about how i would like my teams to play. Well ideally i like them to play free-flowing simple short passing, and using my wide men to create chances for my poacher up front. However after looking what cards i have been dealt, i dont think i can use this in my Reading save, unless i want to fail at my first hurdle. I do like however having a weaker team using Players with high work rate so my players will chase, harry, and pretty much put their heart on the line for the team. Also Determination so my players will never give up a fight and do anything to get a result for their team, and finally Stamina, as i noticed before that my midfield has pretty good stamina i will be hoping that with players with good work rate, determination and stamina to have the energy to chance and make things difficult for my opposing side, this will make up for a lack of quality in my side.

So i moved on to my players individually and highlighted a few players that fit the mould perfectly, when i say a few i mean 4 ! They are Alex Pearce DC, Jem Karacen MC, Jason Roberts SC and Noel Hunt SC. These players will be the ones to play reguarly. They ones that have poor workrate,det and stamina have been looked at in depth and if i feel i can get decent money from or wont improve these attributes in the next 2 years then they have been placed on the transfer list or released.

Now to my problem, i want to create a tactic based on using High work rate,Determination and stamina. i am thinking to start of with a basic 4-4-2, no frills, with my two central mids dropping deeper to make it difficult to break us down.

I must add i am currently searching for players with the attributes in mind to suit my way of play.

I just would like someone to shed some light on how to achive a tactic for my team.

any help or advice would be fantastic

cheers

braddockmatt

[Cleon]

Thunder - You've made it clear you don't want to learn or help so I've deleted your post. I have better things to do than answer you in this thread when its obvious and you've made it clear you don't want help.

So please don't post in here again unless its about the opening post of this topic.

[MichaelBrown]

I don't know whether anybody cares about my views, but I've found a standard 4-4-2 works pretty well in FM13. I hardly played it in 12, usually opting for a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-2-2, but this year it seems it's a viable tactic.

Has anybody else given it a try? I've tried it with St. Johnstone and Portsmouth by the way in a bit of detail, and then a couple of games here and there with other teams.

[Siven]

Formations with 2 DMs have always been my bane until this thread.

My Formation as Liverpool:

Fluid, short passing, more CF, press more, zonal, light tackling, drill crosses, more roaming, Control strategy, no playermaker or targetman set.

SK(S)

WB(auto)

DC(D)

DC(D)

WB(Auto)

DM(D)

DLP(S)

AdvP(A)

IF(A)

IF(A)

CF(S), yes complete as i like the settings. Main stiker is Cavani who has drop deep PPM so theory is he can often through ball or dribble at and commit defenders.

Last 2 games i have played vs 4-4-2 (with 2 DM) against my 4-1-2-2-1.

So to combat this i changed my DM(D)to a DLP(S), my DLP(S) in CM to CM(S) support and my AdvP(A) to a CM(A). I was already on a wide pitch so i didnt play any wider, pitch was long so i pushed up, was raining so i used the get ball forward shout also, and after i scored the first goal in each game i changed to Attack strategy too so my Wing backs were more involved and i won both matches 5-0 and 3-0 with plenty of possession and little trouble

[Ron_Burgundy]

So far so good for my Arsenal side.

I just thought I would update on the success (so far for me) with this tactic:

It is superb at home. We dominate games and usually plenty of chances. There is the occasional match where we don't create as much as I would like but I think I have rectified that in part by turning off long shots for my striker and centre mids

Away from home - it creates plenty but isn't quite as solid as I would ideally like.

I am not sure what I should be looking for to improve the defensive side of the game:

Welcome any thoughts but mainly I just wanted to share my progress so far...

[Arab]

I don't know whether anybody cares about my views, but I've found a standard 4-4-2 works pretty well in FM13. I hardly played it in 12, usually opting for a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-2-2, but this year it seems it's a viable tactic.

Has anybody else given it a try? I've tried it with St. Johnstone and Portsmouth by the way in a bit of detail, and then a couple of games here and there with other teams.

How do you have your defence set up. I'm trying to make a 4-4-2 but conceeded a few goals in pre season. Maybe the tactic hasnt gelled but I suspect it's my lack of tactical knowledge.

[Cleon]

I don't know whether anybody cares about my views, but I've found a standard 4-4-2 works pretty well in FM13. I hardly played it in 12, usually opting for a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-2-2, but this year it seems it's a viable tactic.

Has anybody else given it a try? I've tried it with St. Johnstone and Portsmouth by the way in a bit of detail, and then a couple of games here and there with other teams.

I like the 442. I've used it with Sheffield United and Sheffield FC. The 442 is still a very flexible formation and can become a 4411, 451, 433, 424 at different stages depending on how you've set up.

[Cleon]

Hello, i require some help i am beginning a new save with a poor Reading side. I have taken a lot from this thread and thought i would challange myself to create my own tactic without just simply downloading a tried and tested one. I went straight to the team comparison page and it wasnt happy reading(no pun intended) !! In 90% of the attributes we were in the bottom 4/5. I was expecting us to be poor on a few fronts but this is worse than i expected. 20th place for decisions,20th for overall passing,18th for work rate, 19th Teamwork.

In my Defence catorgry out of the 8 attributes none of them was about 16th and even more 7 of the 8 where in the bottom 3 !

Midfield : 20th for passing,creativity,tech and decisions, however we were 5th for stamina in our midfield.(something i want to exploit)

Att: 4 out of the 8 in bottom 3, Finishing 20th, movement 19th, pace 18th. heading though was a reasonable 11th along with a 7th place for our forwards jumping ability.

So, i thought about how i would like my teams to play. Well ideally i like them to play free-flowing simple short passing, and using my wide men to create chances for my poacher up front. However after looking what cards i have been dealt, i dont think i can use this in my Reading save, unless i want to fail at my first hurdle. I do like however having a weaker team using Players with high work rate so my players will chase, harry, and pretty much put their heart on the line for the team. Also Determination so my players will never give up a fight and do anything to get a result for their team, and finally Stamina, as i noticed before that my midfield has pretty good stamina i will be hoping that with players with good work rate, determination and stamina to have the energy to chance and make things difficult for my opposing side, this will make up for a lack of quality in my side.

So i moved on to my players individually and highlighted a few players that fit the mould perfectly, when i say a few i mean 4 ! They are Alex Pearce DC, Jem Karacen MC, Jason Roberts SC and Noel Hunt SC. These players will be the ones to play reguarly. They ones that have poor workrate,det and stamina have been looked at in depth and if i feel i can get decent money from or wont improve these attributes in the next 2 years then they have been placed on the transfer list or released.

Now to my problem, i want to create a tactic based on using High work rate,Determination and stamina. i am thinking to start of with a basic 4-4-2, no frills, with my two central mids dropping deeper to make it difficult to break us down.

I must add i am currently searching for players with the attributes in mind to suit my way of play.

I just would like someone to shed some light on how to achive a tactic for my team.

any help or advice would be fantastic

cheers

braddockmatt

Personally I'd set up something that is quite solid at the back because you are likely to be in a relegation fight. The 442 can be good but you'd need to have that destroyer type midfielder in the middle. I also think a 4411 might suit you depending on if you have a decent AMC or not, I'm not familiar with the Reading squad so I'm unsure tbh.

Whatever you do, you should play on the counter imo because teams will likely be adventerous when playing you.

[Cleon]

Formations with 2 DMs have always been my bane until this thread.

My Formation as Liverpool:

Fluid, short passing, more CF, press more, zonal, light tackling, drill crosses, more roaming, Control strategy, no playermaker or targetman set.

SK(S)

WB(auto)

DC(D)

DC(D)

WB(Auto)

DM(D)

DLP(S)

AdvP(A)

IF(A)

IF(A)

CF(S), yes complete as i like the settings. Main stiker is Cavani who has drop deep PPM so theory is he can often through ball or dribble at and commit defenders.

Last 2 games i have played vs 4-4-2 (with 2 DM) against my 4-1-2-2-1.

So to combat this i changed my DM(D)to a DLP(S), my DLP(S) in CM to CM(S) support and my AdvP(A) to a CM(A). I was already on a wide pitch so i didnt play any wider, pitch was long so i pushed up, was raining so i used the get ball forward shout also, and after i scored the first goal in each game i changed to Attack strategy too so my Wing backs were more involved and i won both matches 5-0 and 3-0 with plenty of possession and little trouble

Someone brave eh who goes attacking when they score first. Many wouldn't have tried to close the game out and gone more defensive. I love the fact you didn't

[Cleon]

So far so good for my Arsenal side.

I just thought I would update on the success (so far for me) with this tactic:

It is superb at home. We dominate games and usually plenty of chances. There is the occasional match where we don't create as much as I would like but I think I have rectified that in part by turning off long shots for my striker and centre mids

Away from home - it creates plenty but isn't quite as solid as I would ideally like.

I am not sure what I should be looking for to improve the defensive side of the game:

Welcome any thoughts but mainly I just wanted to share my progress so far...

In a few of those games I'd have subbed the players with really bad ratings a lot sooner than you did. 5.9 and 2 x 5.4's are shocking, how come you left them on the pitch for so long with ratings like that?

A better questions would be, why was the ratings so low?

I'm not sure how you set up for games. A lot of people have replied to the thread and I struggle to remember how everyone has set up or what settings they are using. But do you play counterattacking? Are you pressing high up the pitch?

[loisvale]

This thread is fantastic and has been a complete revelation to me. Other than loversleaper this has been the first thread that has truly give me the confidence to create my own tactics and play the game properly.

What would be very helpful for us less skilled in tactic creation would be a list of key attributes for various roles. For instance;

What are the key attributes for Trequartista (A); AP (A), DLP (S) etc. sorry if this is posted somewhere else or I am missing the point but this would give me much more confidence in tinkering around with my tactic knowing that I was creating the correct roles for players I have or finding the correct players for the system I have in mind.

[TwinsFan86]

This thread is fantastic and has been a complete revelation to me. Other than loversleaper this has been the first thread that has truly give me the confidence to create my own tactics and play the game properly.

What would be very helpful for us less skilled in tactic creation would be a list of key attributes for various roles. For instance;

What are the key attributes for Trequartista (A); AP (A), DLP (S) etc. sorry if this is posted somewhere else or I am missing the point but this would give me much more confidence in tinkering around with my tactic knowing that I was creating the correct roles for players I have or finding the correct players for the system I have in mind.

The game already highlights key attributes for each position/role for you, in several different locations. On the top right of the attributes screen, there is a drop down menu that lets you select key attributes. Key attributes are also automatically highlighted on the player instructions screen of the tactics panel.

[Cleon]

This thread is fantastic and has been a complete revelation to me. Other than loversleaper this has been the first thread that has truly give me the confidence to create my own tactics and play the game properly.

What would be very helpful for us less skilled in tactic creation would be a list of key attributes for various roles. For instance;

What are the key attributes for Trequartista (A); AP (A), DLP (S) etc. sorry if this is posted somewhere else or I am missing the point but this would give me much more confidence in tinkering around with my tactic knowing that I was creating the correct roles for players I have or finding the correct players for the system I have in mind.

The game already highlights key attributes for each position/role for you, in several different locations. On the top right of the attributes screen, there is a drop down menu that lets you select key attributes. Key attributes are also automatically highlighted on the player instructions screen of the tactics panel.

Yups already in the game

[lam]

There are lots of points with in the player and tactical screens where you can highlight what the game defines as the required skill set for each role and duty.

These are essentially the skills that the player is likely to use, however don't think that these are the only required skills, you need the skills that allow you do use the ones that the game highlights.

So, strength and balance are not required skills of an Inside Forward, however if you have them, it will be much harder for the opposition to bully your player off the ball. They are more likely to have to put in a full tackle.

[Jibby123]

This thread is fantastic and has been a complete revelation to me. Other than loversleaper this has been the first thread that has truly give me the confidence to create my own tactics and play the game properly.

What would be very helpful for us less skilled in tactic creation would be a list of key attributes for various roles. For instance;

What are the key attributes for Trequartista (A); AP (A), DLP (S) etc. sorry if this is posted somewhere else or I am missing the point but this would give me much more confidence in tinkering around with my tactic knowing that I was creating the correct roles for players I have or finding the correct players for the system I have in mind.

I won't be the 3rd to say they are in the game; but I found the following guide that somebody posted a link to here very useful in getting to grips with it all on one glance screen. I don't know why but prefer it to the game's help or did at first.

http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/tactics/creating-tactics/player-instructions/choosing-roles

[tony23]

Cleon..what would you do if u play against juve 352 formation. I played them twice using 41221 with man u,only manage to get draw result for both matches.

[Cleon]

Cleon..what would you do if u play against juve 352 formation. I played them twice using 41221 with man u,only manage to get draw result for both matches.

Exploit the wings because they only have wingbacks so you should be able to force them back and defend. If you cut the supply off that the wingbacks provide then you've won half the battle already.

[tony23]

Alright..thx a lot mate for ur quick response!

[MichaelBrown]

I like the 442. I've used it with Sheffield United and Sheffield FC. The 442 is still a very flexible formation and can become a 4411, 451, 433, 424 at different stages depending on how you've set up.

I never *struggled* with tactics in this years game, I just found that my teams (Portsmouth, St Johnstone) never played as effectively as I wanted them to, sometimes it felt that games were a struggle.

All I did was go back to basics and play a DLF (support or attack, depending on player) and a AF. I attempted a TM with Sidibe but I believe it didn't work as well. Played it standard, rigid and shorter passing. As Portsmouth are blessed with Buksaky (perfect DLP) and Williamson (CM/D), I allowed the wingers to push forward a bit. The full backs were Lichaj and Grosso. I felt it was quite flexible but it allowed me to keep it's defensive foundations.

How do you have your defence set up. I'm trying to make a 4-4-2 but conceeded a few goals in pre season. Maybe the tactic hasnt gelled but I suspect it's my lack of tactical knowledge.

As in the roles/duties? For my Portsmouth save I have Grosso as WB (s), Michalik as LD (d), Ertl as CD (d), Lichaj as FB (d). I haven't really messed around in much detail with the defense due to the standard of the centre backs, for example. Maybe someone will clarify whether this is an erroneous approach.

[Cleon]

I never *struggled* with tactics in this years game, I just found that my teams (Portsmouth, St Johnstone) never played as effectively as I wanted them to, sometimes it felt that games were a struggle.

All I did was go back to basics and play a DLF (support or attack, depending on player) and a AF. I attempted a TM with Sidibe but I believe it didn't work as well. Played it standard, rigid and shorter passing. As Portsmouth are blessed with Buksaky (perfect DLP) and Williamson (CM/D), I allowed the wingers to push forward a bit. The full backs were Lichaj and Grosso. I felt it was quite flexible but it allowed me to keep it's defensive foundations.

As in the roles/duties? For my Portsmouth save I have Grosso as WB (s), Michalik as LD (d), Ertl as CD (d), Lichaj as FB (d). I haven't really messed around in much detail with the defense due to the standard of the centre backs, for example. Maybe someone will clarify whether this is an erroneous approach.

I like that set up for a 442.

[Ron_Burgundy]

In a few of those games I'd have subbed the players with really bad ratings a lot sooner than you did. 5.9 and 2 x 5.4's are shocking, how come you left them on the pitch for so long with ratings like that?

A better questions would be, why was the ratings so low?

I'm not sure how you set up for games. A lot of people have replied to the thread and I struggle to remember how everyone has set up or what settings they are using. But do you play counterattacking? Are you pressing high up the pitch?

Hi Cleon,

My apologies, the player ratings in the previous screenshot were QPR (I am Arsenal) - which I hadn't realised. They had the crappy ratings!

These are the stats from that QPR game - hopefully you will see what I mean about being good going forward but a little open at the back! Although I do think some of that is down to Cisse being massively overrated!

As for overall tactic - this is mine:

[Sleepydude]

Anybody noticed any differences with the new patch?

[James9]

Cleon what match strategy would you use for wet, chewed up pitch. I am thinking g counter attacking football might not work on wet pitches or pitches that are heavy and frozen. It would also be great to know what shouts would suit these situations best. Do I also have to change my passing instructions to suit these conditions. I normally play with short passing at the moment but I do not know what passing instructions to give my team for different pitches and weather conditions. If you can help me with this area of understanding the game I would be greatfull

[Sleepydude]

Cleon what match strategy would you use for wet, chewed up pitch. I am thinking g counter attacking football might not work on wet pitches or pitches that are heavy and frozen. It would also be great to know what shouts would suit these situations best. Do I also have to change my passing instructions to suit these conditions. I normally play with short passing at the moment but I do not know what passing instructions to give my team for different pitches and weather conditions. If you can help me with this area of understanding the game I would be greatfull

For bad pitches go with direct passing. I sometimes use hard tackling too. For even more direct + higher tempo, use the "Get ball forward" shout.

[Spireheart]

Yeah my Juve side has gone from a lean very good side to a bunch of players who don't have a clue. Need start a fresh by the looks of it. I just cant score at all.

[RTHerringbone]

Anybody noticed any differences with the new patch?

Loads. More dribbling and way more shots stand out. I'm winning more convincingly but not entirely sure I deserve to be.

I just need my premature sense of achievement to be put in check by a defeat I think.

[The Dandy Dons]

Absolute mare playing against 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-2-2-1. Even worse City's narrow 4-2-3-1.

[Sleepydude]

Yeah City's narrow 4-2-3-1 is always a nightmare to play against for some reason, no matter which tactic I use.

[Guest]

Just wanted to say a big thanks to you Cleon and lam for this thread, for the first time in about 15 years I've struggled with tactics on this version but having read through the thread and seeing how people like yourselfs look at the game, I've been ble to take parts of what you've talked about and applied them to my own team.

Playing as Arsenal I've gone with a 4231 formation, using shouts and a very similar playing philosophy to what yu've posted in the OP I'm having a storming season so far. Think what has really mde my tactic click is a something you posted recently about playing two DLP one on support and one on defend, having used this in my tactic we are performing much better then before.

I'm currently 19 games into the season, have 50 points and am 8 clear of 2nd place Man City, bigges supriseis Giroud with 25 goals in 23 games, my team is:

SK (S) Szczesny

FB (A) Sanga

CB (D) Koscielny

BPD (D) Vermaelen

FB (A) Gibbs (have Santon comingin Jan)

DLP (D) Arteta

DLP (S) Wilshere

W(S) Oxlade-Chamberlin (or IF(S) if Walcott starts)

TQ (A) Carzorla

IF(S) Podolski

DLF (S) Giroud

Someofte link up play is awesome so once again - big thanks

Hi I have taken a few tips from your formation and playing roles as I to like to play 4-2-3-1 with Arsenal but have not had much success due to being inconsistent.

May I ask is it a balanced/counter team strategy you use , that's what I'm currently set as , also your shouts look good may try the shut up shop shout you created , about the other shouts you use do you start with them or use them if not playing well?

thanks

[mibsweden]

Absolute mare playing against 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-2-2-1. Even worse City's narrow 4-2-3-1.

Lol that scares me too! I have super problems with that formation/team.

[darren1983]

Hi I have taken a few tips from your formation and playing roles as I to like to play 4-2-3-1 with Arsenal but have not had much success due to being inconsistent.

May I ask is it a balanced/counter team strategy you use , that's what I'm currently set as , also your shouts look good may try the shut up shop shout you created , about the other shouts you use do you start with them or use them if not playing well?

thanks

Yeah balanced/counter is my team strategy, in terms of shouts, I always try to use it from the start of games but as I'm still new to using them I sometimes forget

[tommonufc]

Seems to be a lot of people playing with 4-2-3-1 or similar variants, but thought this would still be the best place to find a quick response.

Basically I want to achieve without playing with wingers at the moment, so wanting to play with ideally a 4-1-2-1-2, or similar shapes such as 4-1-3-2 or 4-3-1-2. I've had good success with this with a Newcastle side that has very good players and is pretty easy to instruct them to what I want be done; but wanted a challenge, without using world class players, so have taken charge of Southampton.

Some of you may have seen me post up about this in the diamond thread I made, but the short of it would be that Southampton have a few players (Ramirez, Lallana, Schniedelrin) that I thought I could really get the best from by playing a system that would suit their playing styles - a 4-1-2-1-2.

My first attempt went horribly wrong - just awful. I didn't sign anyone, as I thought I should be able to get the best from each and every player; but I just couldn't force my system onto any side, from West Brom away, to Reading at home. The goals that I scored didn't come from movements that I'd envisaged, and was always on the defensive.

After the new patch was released today I restarted with Southampton, but this time brought in players to strengthen the playing squad. But still having the same problems - and inability to force my system onto sides, and forever on the defensive. I had this same problem early on in using the formation with Newcastle, and posted it within the diamond thread I had created. I didn't really receive the level of coverage or input anticipated, but gradually ploughed on, winning games, but never achieving the level of football I wanted to play. The success I achieved through using a narrow diamond I believe was more down to the quality of player I had at my disposal, but a desire to actually achieve success through tactical theories regardless of world-class ability has seen me move to Southampton.

My main problem I'm seeing is without the ball. I'll go on to more specifics, but basically I can't get the ball back high up the field quickly, therefore forcing me back towards my own goal. Then once I have the ball, due to my lack of natural width ahead of the ball in these deep positions it's proving to be so hard to play out - so I'm stuck in a continual spiral of not winning the ball back, and getting men behind the ball, and being pressed by opposition.

Due to me not having the ball, and the set-up I've constructed in belief it's going to help me keep the ball, I'm always therefore looking to play on the break - and more often than not, these moves break down, and I lose the ball - back to square one.

My theories of how I want to play with a narrow midfield diamond I think can, and should be effective with the personnel I have, and even had to start with in the default Southampton squad. But I just can't get these across due to me not keeping the ball well enough, dominating play, and forcing the opposition to defend.

The points I would like to gather some insight on would basically be along the following. I don't necessarily want to post up what tactical instructions I have at the moment, as I don't think it too relevant in this instance, I more interested in how I would succeed through playing this shape (4-1-2-1-2), and how others with perhaps more knowledge and understanding would first and foremost look to play with a formation such as this;

-- I've played the majority of my games with a defensive strategy. I want low mentalities to ensure my side are careful in possession and can keep the ball. This intern drops my defensive line deep, and narrow. Making it easy for teams to press me. I adjust these through shouts, 'push up higher', 'play wider' - but still not sufficient enough for my liking I don't think.

Now I would take another approach, play 'attacking' this pushes my defensive line up, I play wider. This isn't what I want- my attacks are too quick, and I'm not keeping the ball well enough through short passing etc. I've used shouts, with attacking mentality to try and find this balance, but these are not working either.

Question; By playing a 4-1-2-1-2, I am I looking to play a style that just doesn't fit the shape I'm playing with. Should I be playing an attacking, direct style, would that best suit this style? I want to play a careful passing, possession style, but I just can't for the life of me dominate possession (60%+, even 50%+) through playing a narrow four in midfield - it would appear I should, I have four players in central positions for gods sake!

-- Getting the ball back has been an eternal problem for me in FM13. 90% of the games I've played on this years game would have been without wingers, I've largely become bored of the 4-3-3 variants, I have wanted to play with wing backs, three man defenses and now narrow midfields.

It's obvious by playing with wingers in a 4-3-3 you can press high much more effectively. The wingers can stop the full backs, striker the center backs - you can play high and press high very easily. Without these wingers, the full backs are just simply getting far, far too much of the ball. I've tried the suggestions you may suggest - OP, man marking. To no avail. These full backs are having too much of the ball. They are being allowed to build the oppositions attacks, and gain territory for their side, pushing me back onto my own goal line (citing back to the first problem I talked about).

Question; How do I stop these full backs from ruining my game plan? I need to basically stop them in their tracks higher up the field, in a full back position, before they can become wing backs and then wingers. I've got no natural player playing in their zone - so pressing has to come from other areas. I've tried man marking them with my forwards, but this doesn't really instruct these strikers to press the full backs heavily. All it does seem to do is make them man mark them when they haven't the ball. Meaning these forwards become defensive wingers, and my 4-1-2-1-2 becomes a 4-1-2-3. Is this something I'm just going to have to accept through laying without wingers or wide midfielders? If so, it would therefore indicate that a narrow diamond shape isn't conducive to heavy possession based football - due to me not getting the ball back quick enough against the top level sides.

I think they are the main two points that I need addressing. I really don't want to try and lay blame at anything such as the quality of my sides players or the ME, as first and foremost I've chosen a side that I can fit a style effectively around the players I have at my disposal, and even though pressing has improved dramatically this year there has to be a work around - it can't just ruin the effectiveness of narrow formations in the whole game.

Any help much appreciated, as just everything I'm trying just doesn't sodding work!

[tommonufc]

Here's some screenshots that will reaffirm my problem(s);

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8353/8288817457_990e80b8e8_c.jpg' alt='8288817457_990e80b8e8_c.jpg'>

Haven't had a touch of the ball. I'm playing with four in the center of midfield, but I'm not dominating the middle. Defence's passing is shocking, meaning that they are unable to deal with pressure and pass out. Barely even entered Everton's final third.

Leighton Baines, probably the single left back in the league I don't want to be giving this amount of time. He has opposition instructions of close down always, show on to weaker foot, tight marking. Isn't working though!!

[Cleon]

Cleon what match strategy would you use for wet, chewed up pitch. I am thinking g counter attacking football might not work on wet pitches or pitches that are heavy and frozen. It would also be great to know what shouts would suit these situations best. Do I also have to change my passing instructions to suit these conditions. I normally play with short passing at the moment but I do not know what passing instructions to give my team for different pitches and weather conditions. If you can help me with this area of understanding the game I would be greatfull

I've answered this already in the thread.

[Cleon]

Seems to be a lot of people playing with 4-2-3-1 or similar variants, but thought this would still be the best place to find a quick response.

Basically I want to achieve without playing with wingers at the moment, so wanting to play with ideally a 4-1-2-1-2, or similar shapes such as 4-1-3-2 or 4-3-1-2. I've had good success with this with a Newcastle side that has very good players and is pretty easy to instruct them to what I want be done; but wanted a challenge, without using world class players, so have taken charge of Southampton.

Some of you may have seen me post up about this in the diamond thread I made, but the short of it would be that Southampton have a few players (Ramirez, Lallana, Schniedelrin) that I thought I could really get the best from by playing a system that would suit their playing styles - a 4-1-2-1-2.

My first attempt went horribly wrong - just awful. I didn't sign anyone, as I thought I should be able to get the best from each and every player; but I just couldn't force my system onto any side, from West Brom away, to Reading at home. The goals that I scored didn't come from movements that I'd envisaged, and was always on the defensive.

After the new patch was released today I restarted with Southampton, but this time brought in players to strengthen the playing squad. But still having the same problems - and inability to force my system onto sides, and forever on the defensive. I had this same problem early on in using the formation with Newcastle, and posted it within the diamond thread I had created. I didn't really receive the level of coverage or input anticipated, but gradually ploughed on, winning games, but never achieving the level of football I wanted to play. The success I achieved through using a narrow diamond I believe was more down to the quality of player I had at my disposal, but a desire to actually achieve success through tactical theories regardless of world-class ability has seen me move to Southampton.

My main problem I'm seeing is without the ball. I'll go on to more specifics, but basically I can't get the ball back high up the field quickly, therefore forcing me back towards my own goal. Then once I have the ball, due to my lack of natural width ahead of the ball in these deep positions it's proving to be so hard to play out - so I'm stuck in a continual spiral of not winning the ball back, and getting men behind the ball, and being pressed by opposition.

Due to me not having the ball, and the set-up I've constructed in belief it's going to help me keep the ball, I'm always therefore looking to play on the break - and more often than not, these moves break down, and I lose the ball - back to square one.

My theories of how I want to play with a narrow midfield diamond I think can, and should be effective with the personnel I have, and even had to start with in the default Southampton squad. But I just can't get these across due to me not keeping the ball well enough, dominating play, and forcing the opposition to defend.

A 41212 is what I used from day one in Brazil with Paysandu. They start in the 3rd division and over 5 seasons I took them to first division winners all by using a simple 41212, when I load the game up later I'll post up the settings I used. It was rather basic though.

-- I've played the majority of my games with a defensive strategy. I want low mentalities to ensure my side are careful in possession and can keep the ball. This intern drops my defensive line deep, and narrow. Making it easy for teams to press me. I adjust these through shouts, 'push up higher', 'play wider' - but still not sufficient enough for my liking I don't think.

Now I would take another approach, play 'attacking' this pushes my defensive line up, I play wider. This isn't what I want- my attacks are too quick, and I'm not keeping the ball well enough through short passing etc. I've used shouts, with attacking mentality to try and find this balance, but these are not working either.

Have you tried counter attacking? It allows you to attack fast at times but it can also be very patient with slow build up play. Pretty much like what I've created in here. I tend to have around 63% possession in most of my games now and that's without even trying to keep possession. I'm sure I could make it a lot better if I wanted to but there is no need for me.

Question; By playing a 4-1-2-1-2, I am I looking to play a style that just doesn't fit the shape I'm playing with. Should I be playing an attacking, direct style, would that best suit this style? I want to play a careful passing, possession style, but I just can't for the life of me dominate possession (60%+, even 50%+) through playing a narrow four in midfield - it would appear I should, I have four players in central positions for gods sake!

You're playing in the EPL though and face a lot of 442's which dominate and exploit the wings. So this will stretch you at times and make it harder for you to win the ball back. If you don't win the ball back fast enough and high up the pitch, then possession will suffer. You should though dominate with the central players against any 2 or 3 man midfields.

-- Getting the ball back has been an eternal problem for me in FM13. 90% of the games I've played on this years game would have been without wingers, I've largely become bored of the 4-3-3 variants, I have wanted to play with wing backs, three man defenses and now narrow midfields.

What have you tried to try and win the ball higher up the pitch?

If everyone is on low mentalities then you're always going to be playing deep, making it hard to win the ball high up the pitch. Have you tried shouts?

It's obvious by playing with wingers in a 4-3-3 you can press high much more effectively. The wingers can stop the full backs, striker the center backs - you can play high and press high very easily. Without these wingers, the full backs are just simply getting far, far too much of the ball. I've tried the suggestions you may suggest - OP, man marking. To no avail. These full backs are having too much of the ball. They are being allowed to build the oppositions attacks, and gain territory for their side, pushing me back onto my own goal line (citing back to the first problem I talked about).

Question; How do I stop these full backs from ruining my game plan? I need to basically stop them in their tracks higher up the field, in a full back position, before they can become wing backs and then wingers. I've got no natural player playing in their zone - so pressing has to come from other areas. I've tried man marking them with my forwards, but this doesn't really instruct these strikers to press the full backs heavily. All it does seem to do is make them man mark them when they haven't the ball. Meaning these forwards become defensive wingers, and my 4-1-2-1-2 becomes a 4-1-2-3. Is this something I'm just going to have to accept through laying without wingers or wide midfielders? If so, it would therefore indicate that a narrow diamond shape isn't conducive to heavy possession based football - due to me not getting the ball back quick enough against the top level sides.

Because you have no-one naturally to mark them and press them it's always going to be hard to press the fullbacks early. It's a logical limitation of the shape you are using. The dimaond can be great at heavy pressing but it also depends on what formations you come up against. In Brazil I don't suffer the same issues as you because many teams don't have wingers. So the fullbacks still see a bit of the ball but they have no-one in front of them to build attacks with and play overlaps. My strikers normally track them back and put a challenge in before they get into a dangerous area.

I specific man mark them, tight marking and use OI's on them to always close down and tackle hard. It works quite well for my strikers on the fullbacks.

I think they are the main two points that I need addressing. I really don't want to try and lay blame at anything such as the quality of my sides players or the ME, as first and foremost I've chosen a side that I can fit a style effectively around the players I have at my disposal, and even though pressing has improved dramatically this year there has to be a work around - it can't just ruin the effectiveness of narrow formations in the whole game.

Any help much appreciated, as just everything I'm trying just doesn't sodding work!

Narrow formations are great but they all come with a draw back just like wide formations do. Each one has a weakness that is hard to cover. Man Utd have used a diamond and attacking wise it did great and the stats look decent but West Ham kept exploiting the same kind of space as you are struggling with. If you look back over Man Utd's stats for the games they've used the diamond you'll find on average RvP is the player who covers the most distance because he is chasing the fullback and trying to press him hard. According to Opta RvP has covered around 6.3 miles per game when a diamond as been used more than any other United player.

[Cleon]

Here's some screenshots that will reaffirm my problem(s);

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8353/8288817457_990e80b8e8_c.jpg' alt='8288817457_990e80b8e8_c.jpg'>

Haven't had a touch of the ball. I'm playing with four in the center of midfield, but I'm not dominating the middle. Defence's passing is shocking, meaning that they are unable to deal with pressure and pass out. Barely even entered Everton's final third.

Leighton Baines, probably the single left back in the league I don't want to be giving this amount of time. He has opposition instructions of close down always, show on to weaker foot, tight marking. Isn't working though!!

Have you tried tight marking for the midfielders? I know Lam likes to do this and I use it myself very often too.

From those stats above a major problem seems to be tackling and distribution from the defence. Have you looked through the analysis to see why these are only 54% and 56%? It seems your defence is giving the ball away cheaply, it could be something simple like the keeper wasting the ball. But either way its an issue because it means you're giving the ball away and allowing them to build attacks again. Actually if you sorted the defence out passing wise, the possession would have been in your favour above in the above screenshots. You'd be edging it something like 41% to 59% in your favour. It could be more though if you manage to get them to retain over 76% like the rest of your team.

That change alone would make a massive difference.

As for the tackling I'd actually go more cautious so the players make tackles when they are 99% sure they'll win the ball. The aggressive approach just isn't working for you based on those stats and again is costing you. I'm guessing people are going for tackles they have no change of winning and missing the challenge and making it easier for the opposition to go through you because of mistakes and mistimed challenges.

[Guest]

Yeah balanced/counter is my team strategy, in terms of shouts, I always try to use it from the start of games but as I'm still new to using them I sometimes forget

many thanks , do you use a short passing game and in terms of the other team instructions are they set as default ? I'm using short passing ,zonal marking , drill crosses but everything else is set as default.

[Sleepydude]

With the new patch some things have changed. Pressing is a lot more noticeable, sometimes dragging players out of position more than I'd like. Also dribbling is quite potent.

To combat this I've changed my closing down settings from Press More to Default and sometimes Stand off More. I also changed marking from Zonal to Default so my CDs and DLP are set to tight man mark. I've only played a few matches with these new settings but I think that my defense is a bit tighter now.

[MichaelBrown]

I like that set up for a 442.

It works. My laptop is in for repair at the minute, but as soon as it's back I'm going to go into a bit more detail. Preferably, I want a better defender who can pass the ball to Buksaky who is the creative spark. Obviously it's hard for a L1 side, but I can have a search.

[Ron_Burgundy]

Just wanted to say a big thanks to you Cleon and lam for this thread, for the first time in about 15 years I've struggled with tactics on this version but having read through the thread and seeing how people like yourselfs look at the game, I've been ble to take parts of what you've talked about and applied them to my own team.

Playing as Arsenal I've gone with a 4231 formation, using shouts and a very similar playing philosophy to what yu've posted in the OP I'm having a storming season so far. Think what has really mde my tactic click is a something you posted recently about playing two DLP one on support and one on defend, having used this in my tactic we are performing much better then before.

I'm currently 19 games into the season, have 50 points and am 8 clear of 2nd place Man City, bigges supriseis Giroud with 25 goals in 23 games, my team is:

SK (S) Szczesny

FB (A) Sanga

CB (D) Koscielny

BPD (D) Vermaelen

FB (A) Gibbs (have Santon comingin Jan)

DLP (D) Arteta

DLP (S) Wilshere

W(S) Oxlade-Chamberlin (or IF(S) if Walcott starts)

TQ (A) Carzorla

IF(S) Podolski

DLF (S) Giroud

Someofte link up play is awesome so once again - big thanks

Hi Darren,

I am going to give your tactic a go. My 41221 doesn't create enough at top end of the pitch unfortunately. Away games tend to be a dull battle to 0-0!

Have you finished your season as of yet? How did you get on? And do you only use the shouts you described earlier? Ie that list at the beginning and the 'shut up shop' shout if needed?

[MichaelBrown]

Cleon what match strategy would you use for wet, chewed up pitch. I am thinking g counter attacking football might not work on wet pitches or pitches that are heavy and frozen. It would also be great to know what shouts would suit these situations best. Do I also have to change my passing instructions to suit these conditions. I normally play with short passing at the moment but I do not know what passing instructions to give my team for different pitches and weather conditions. If you can help me with this area of understanding the game I would be greatfull

More direct passing. Think about it - if you pass the ball around it won't be as accurate due to the muddy surface.

[Deego619]

I'd just like to say a huge thank you to the contributors of this thread, it has really opened my eyes as to how to really read tactics.

Just a quick question, my Fleetwood team are amongst the best passers/decision makers in the league but lack any real wingers. Would anyone reckon that I will find success playing an attacking mentality (due to being the best decision makers in the league) with a 4-1-3-2 and have success, or will this just cause hollywood balls without taking advantage of my central dominance? I know I should really watch and try it myself to see my answers, but I would not mind a opinion in critique of the idea.