Match Engine Update 13.1.3 - quick overview. ME feedback here please.

[wwfan]

And here is mine.

I've 're-run' the same game many times now, always seems the same.

Love to know what the AI's tactics are!

Looks to me like they are mostly on the defensive, but you are struggling to produce more than one chance type.

Your team is generally attacking down the right, mirrored with their defensive focus on the left. It looks like that they then crowd out your players in the middle (8 & 19), with 27 and 20 barely being a threat, hence the double compression around those areas. It also looks like they attacked your right side at some stage, possibly late in the match? I'd work on working out how to develop a second threat down the left wing. That should open up their centre and give your line leading FC more space.

[bornyesterday]

Are you kidding me?

6 injuries in one match two of which had to go off, I finished the game with 9 men. This is at the start of the season when everyone should be fresh!

[wwfan]

Are you kidding me?

6 injuries in one match two of which had to go off, I finished the game with 9 men. This is at the start of the season when everyone should be fresh!

Or nobody is fit enough because of an inadequate pre-season?

[Kingofpilot]

I still can´t see any difference between weak and strong teams in the way they play. Sheffield Wednesday (or United? Iam not sure) press me (Chelsea) away from home like Barcelona, extremely weak, low level teams have almost unpenetrable defense and semi-professional players have first touch like Iniesta. etc. I also have issues with with long passes, my players keep hoofing the ball even though they are not under pressure and instructed to pass to feet. There are still issues with goalkeepers - they are buggy. Fullbacks seem to defend only to a certain point, beyond it they stop tracking the winger who has time and space. I have several playmakers with great passing in my team yet they lose possesion in easy situations. I just cant spot a difference between Mata and Emile Heskey, they all play the same, it may be my tactics though.

[Fancy Gaffot]

You're Arsenal, so it's realistic

Changed my prepatch tactics from attacking-fluid to defensive-rigid (nothing else) and the results have improved. It reduced my frustration surely but still the ME is much worse than before the patch imo.

[skog]

Or nobody is fit enough because of an inadequate pre-season?

...but 6 injuries?

I was doing alright up until I got home today and noticed the update. I've always been awful with tactics so have had to rely mostly on others.

However, the update has resolved many of the irritating issues with through balls, odd goalkeeping and so on and so forth so it's just going to take me a few weekends of rage quits to figure it out all over again...hopefully without another patch appearing

[Tuddur]

THANK YOU! FINALLY after YEARS of frustration the number of mindless longshots are way down.

Used to tear my hear out because of it, no setting left unturned but without success.

Yes total number of shots are down, but thats purely down to all the longshots are removed, atleast in my game.

[Matt123]

i know it's not match engine per se but will you be increasing the size of the ball in 3d mode? I'm having to lean quite close to my monitor to see it

played one game lost from a headed cross, I noticed the long ball over the defenders head was used a bit (not playing a high line)

[OlivierL]

I see more and good pressing, is see good tackling , i see killer passes from the midfield ...

it looks much much better !

[Lurker]

My goalkeeper is ****ing ********, Just sits there and watch the ball go in... Jesus Christ the patch is worse.

[smallclone]

It's really pathetic sorry. I reckon SI have dropped a googlie here. It is just so difficult, I have been playing since 9am this morning as I have a few days off.

I must have won about 5% of my matches.

I've been playing the game for around 10 years. I'm now FC Porto, Latest result:

Fenerbache 2-1 Porto

Fenerbache played 88 mins with 10 men

I had 18 attempts

They had 6

This is the most pathetic version of the game I have ever played.

[higgins]

I'm sorry but that's bordering on insulting people who are raising legitimate complaints / observations in here. Dismissing everyone else's previous success as an exploit and insinuating that your own is down to superior football knowledge is embarrassing.

There is no getting away from the fact that previously successful non-exploitative tactics which worked on Monday, do not work today. Because of the patch. Surely that is what this thread is for - for people to relay their feedback given that SI now have hundreds of thousands of paying testers instead of the tens that test in-house.

Basically what this guy said, I can't understand the reason behind these changes, do you think the game is more realistic now?

I don't think so and please, don't treat customers like brainless 7 years old.

[wwfan]

...but 6 injuries?

Depends how inadequate the pre-season was. Injuries relate to all kinds of things (training, pitch condition, tactics, condition, luck), which is why some people suffer reoccurring heavy injury streaks and others don't. As with almost everything else in FM, it can be tempered with good management.

[Nonlondoner]

Updated ME seems fine to me.

[hyrule_king]

I am finding more success with my 442 with two CDM's.

The closing down of players has been greatly improved and players don't just stand there and wait for the other team to pass it around them. On the previous version even on high pressure there wasn't any closing down.

[Kingofpilot]

And one more thing guys, despite all the talking about "between the lines movement" and not being able to eploit this ME anymore, I have a feeling that more than ever before, i actually "play the ME" instead of football and while weird defensive tactics seem to work for me, the logical ones (at least logical to me) don´t.

[Maradonna]

Full Backs are still not attacking Winger properly. They just run beside them and let them cross.

Also the reaction time of defenders, while watching in total strange directions is awful. Sometimes they just lose 5-10m because they react much later than the forward.

[smallclone]

It's really pathetic sorry. I reckon SI have dropped a googlie here. It is just so difficult, I have been playing since 9am this morning as I have a few days off.

I must have won about 5% of my matches.

I've been playing the game for around 10 years. I'm now FC Porto, Latest result:

Fenerbache 2-1 Porto

Fenerbache played 88 mins with 10 men

I had 18 attempts

They had 6

This is the most pathetic version of the game I have ever played.

I'd just like to add that I appreciate the efforts of the devs. I'm just frustrated that I've wasted an entire day on this.

[wwfan]

Basically what this guy said, I can't understand the reason behind these changes, do you think the game it's more realistic now?

I don't think so and please, don't treat customers like brainless 7 years old.

Every ME has issues. This one has a number, but it has fixed the annoying 'no-press final third' problem of the last ME.

Our experience (the tactical mods, but also the mods in general) is that if you have a structurally sound tactical system, then no ME since FM07's has ever made a jot of difference to your results spread. We also believe that the ME is sound enough now that we can predict which type of tactic will fail and why. I was expecting a raft of complaints that it was almost impossible to score on this ME, because I've seen so many examples of how tactics were being constructed.

However, every time we suggest this, we get attacked as 'not listening to the legitimate complaints of users' or 'treating customers badly'. I don't know how to address this. Our motivation is to help people learn how to play FM successfully, not to upset them. It seems impossible to get past the emotionality the game produces and engage in some rational discussion. In GD anyway.

[dking]

I have just played few games since patch but these are my first observations:

1. Games are played at much higher pace in general now

2. Passing is much more direct and players too often attempt overly ambitious and risky passes. Despite this number of extremely undesirable long (and low) horizontal passes has increased.

3. Positioning seems more rigid than before (this is very disappointing) and, as a consequence, teams rarely loos shape; lateral movement of defensive lines seems non existent, defensive disposition doesn't become denser towards the ball, there is lack of offensive movement, ball doesn't seem to lure undisciplined and/or unintelligent players out of position enough

4. Conditioning, stamina, discipline, tactical familiarity... do not influence enough (possibly at all) teams ability to hold shape during the course of mach*5. Players don't defend runs along corner/goal line properly and goalkeepers don't protect near post adequately*

6. Number of tackles has gone through the roof, tackling is to successful/clean

7. Tackles from behind are still far to easily performed and used far, far to frequently

8. Number of injuries increased (I hardly had any before) <--- this is great improvement!

*This are long standing issues

Completely agree with three, six, seven and eight.

[OberonDark]

Full Backs are still not attacking Winger properly. They just run beside them and let them cross.

Also the reaction time of defenders, while watching in total strange directions is awful. Sometimes they just lose 5-10m because they react much later than the forward.

Yup. Now that offense is somewhat better defense is just straight up broken.

[Arnoldzhu]

Tone: calmly

this is only first phase of patches, so just relax and go out there and have some fun.

[Arnoldzhu]

Too many tackles and/or interceptions in a match would be unrealistic. Just check some match stats irl. So be careful.

[OberonDark]

Every ME has issues. This one has a number, but it has fixed the annoying 'no-press final third' problem of the last ME.

Our experience (the tactical mods, but also the mods in general) is that if you have a structurally sound tactical system, then no ME since FM07's has ever made a jot of difference to your results spread. We also believe that the ME is sound enough now that we can predict which type of tactic will fail and why. I was expecting a raft of complaints that it was almost impossible to score on this ME, because I've seen so many examples of how tactics were being constructed.

However, every time we suggest this, we get attacked as 'not listening to the legitimate complaints of users' or 'treating customers badly'. I don't know how to address this. Our motivation is to help people learn how to play FM successfully, not to upset them. It seems impossible to get past the emotionality the game produces and engage in some rational discussion. In GD anyway.

Tactics have nothing to do with defenders being abnormally bad at their jobs and not defending. It doesn't have to do with the players, or anything else under our control. It's 100% the ME. CBs will react horribly to through balls and FBs won't adequately cover wingers.

None of us here can control that, just SI.

[CityAndColour]

I was one of the previous ME's biggest defenders on here. One of the main reasons for this is that using 'sound common sense' was working well before. Doesn't appear to be now. Now, I'm having to find a tactic which works best with this latest ME rather than find one which suits the players I have. You'll have seen the screenshot I posted which shows the before and after results. I've now changed my whole team's formation from a narrow 4-3-1-2 formation to a wider 4-4-1-1 formation, and it seems to be working better. But the point is, it shouldn't. I don't have particularly good wide players, as I've never needed them, yet I'm having more success with this set up than I was with players who better suited the previous formation.

You were very quick to shoot down people having issues with the previous match engine. Now you're having issues so hopefully people give you the same dismissive treatment.

[Leander]

Own goal after own goal after own goal. In just every second match there is an own goal, sometimes two.

[MacZidane]

I personally think that due to the amount of complaints surrounding the old ME - most of which IMO were irrational and unjustified - you've tried too hard with this latest patch. Which is a shame, as all it needed was some basic tweaking and a few animations tidied up (not counting the tax bug).

I still think overall the game is great, but it's wee bit disappointing that it's reverted back to 'beat the ME' rather than 'beat the other team'. To that end it has more in common now with previous FMs. This may have been the road you wanted to go down having listened to the feedback.

One thing's for sure, none of us could have developed such a complex, immersive, strategy game based on the game we all love - and developed it so god damn well - so I hope the devs don't take the comments personally.

[MacZidane]

You were very quick to shoot down people having issues with the previous match engine. Now you're having issues so hopefully people give you the same dismissive treatment.

And that would be constructive how exactly?

And anyway, I never 'shot down' anyone for having issues with the previous ME. I criticised posters who were either laughably over the top in slagging the whole thing off, or had clearly made up false scenarios in the absence of having the intelligence to put their points across in a constructive fashion.

If you're unable to tell the difference, then that says more about you to be honest. No offence.

[wwfan]

Tactics have nothing to do with defenders being abnormally bad at their jobs and not defending. It doesn't have to do with the players, or anything else under our control. It's 100% the ME. CBs will react horribly to through balls and FBs won't adequately cover wingers.

None of us here can control that, just SI.

As I said, every ME has flaws. However, if you are suddenly getting ripped apart, whereas you weren't before, then you are tactically unsound. If the AI teams are defending crosses and through balls better than you, you are tactically unsound. If your results continue on the same path without a blip, then you are, and were probably always, tactically sound.

[higgins]

Every ME has issues. This one has a number, but it has fixed the annoying 'no-press final third' problem of the last ME.

Our experience (the tactical mods, but also the mods in general) is that if you have a structurally sound tactical system, then no ME since FM07's has ever made a jot of difference to your results spread. We also believe that the ME is sound enough now that we can predict which type of tactic will fail and why. I was expecting a raft of complaints that it was almost impossible to score on this ME, because I've seen so many examples of how tactics were being constructed.

However, every time we suggest this, we get attacked as 'not listening to the legitimate complaints of users' or 'treating customers badly'. I don't know how to address this. Our motivation is to help people learn how to play FM successfully, not to upset them. It seems impossible to get past the emotionality the game produces and engage in some rational discussion. In GD anyway.

I know we can't have a flawless ME, at least I'd like to have a ME that is not schizophrenic, the last patch radically changed the game or better, the way we should play it to experience some success, and don't tell me I'm tactically unsound cause I'm not.

[CityAndColour]

I'm with Kriss. Haven't made one change to my tactical approach and results are almost exactly the same.

As I/we keep on saying, if your tactical approach is sound, then ME changes have almost no effect.

Add me to this crowd. If anything my play has improved slightly. Have never considered myself much of a tactician so there you go, I must have fluked something.

[MacZidane]

if you are suddenly getting ripped apart, whereas you weren't before, then you are tactically unsound.

Are you therefore saying that the previous ME was simply all wrong then? Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from here. A successful tactic pre-patch should still be a successful tactic now. Might need a few minor tweaks to keep it AS successful, but to say someone has been 'tactically unsound' with a tactic which has clearly worked and now isn't purely because YOU'VE changed how the engine works is a tad disingenuous to say the least.

I've said it before. Your tactics should be based on your players and their strengths, not how your game engine handles them. Because if that's what it is now, all it takes is for someone to crack it with a super-tactic, and you're back to people winning every single game they play. I really wanted this FM to be different to that, and felt it was at first.

[Keyzer Soze]

As I said, every ME has flaws. However, if you are suddenly getting ripped apart, whereas you weren't before, then you are tactically unsound. If the AI teams are defending crosses and through balls better than you, you are tactically unsound. If your results continue on the same path without a blip, then you are, and were probably always, tactically sound.

Hi wwfan,

Is it normal that a tactic that were very sucessuful with the previous ME, can't win a match with the ME?

I ask this because, with your help, i built a very good tactic, that worked very good in the precious ME. I was winning with no problems, playing good football.

With the same tactic, and since the patch... No shots, no goals, no wins!

[jdrawmer]

Well, I happen to think the Match Engine update is fantastic. Games play so much better now - much more realistic with tackles flying in, fast paced and I haven't noticed lower league teams playing like Barcelona any more (I play in the lower leagues).

Not noticed significant injury issues in my first few games and haven't had any issues with the number of shots - seems just right to me.

The only remaining bug that I have noticed often, is where from a wide, byline position players still run towards the goal but otherwise - impressive indeed

[CityAndColour]

And that would be constructive how exactly?

And anyway, I never 'shot down' anyone for having issues with the previous ME. I criticised posters who were either laughably over the top in slagging the whole thing off, or had clearly made up false scenarios in the absence of having the intelligence to put their points across in a constructive fashion.

If you're unable to tell the difference, then that says more about you to be honest. No offence.

No worries mate

[Moetto]

Are you therefore saying that the previous ME was simply all wrong then? Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from here. A successful tactic pre-patch should still be a successful tactic now. Might need a few minor tweaks to keep it AS successful, but to say someone has been 'tactically unsound' with a tactic which has clearly worked and now isn't purely because YOU'VE changed how the engine works is a tad disingenuous to say the least.

I've said it before. Your tactics should be based on your players and their strengths, not how your game engine handles them. Because if that's what it is now, all it takes is for someone to crack it with a super-tactic, and you're back to people winning every single game they play. I really wanted this FM to be different to that, and felt it was at first.

Could not agree more as i play with a tactic with wingers playing the ball in to the box and my wingers are great as they are speedy and and good ball treatment but now they dont succed with anything and that cant just have to do with my tactic? And that it does not matter what team i meet they all have high pressure on you and succeed with it atleast thats how it feels atm. My attacker that use to score goals get an average of 6.0 and dont do anything except shooting like my grandma in the box and right on the goalkeeper.

[KingBuzzo15]

I gotta be honest. If you`re moaning about not being able to win any games, then you clearly need to play something else. I am top of the league with Man Utd and I have been on a 7 match unbeaten run. I also played Hoffenheim in the ECC group stage and hammered them 6-0 with Welbeck getting 5 of the goals.

I am playing a 4-2-3-1 with IF`s on the wings.

[Midnight Rob]

I'm sorry but that's bordering on insulting people who are raising legitimate complaints / observations in here. Dismissing everyone else's previous success as an exploit and insinuating that your own is down to superior football knowledge is embarrassing.

There is no getting away from the fact that previously successful non-exploitative tactics which worked on Monday, do not work today. Because of the patch. Surely that is what this thread is for - for people to relay their feedback given that SI now have hundreds of thousands of paying testers instead of the tens that test in-house.

I dissented in the previous feedback thread after offering my opinion that the game was flawed. Unfortunately for me I got told I was moaner by other posters and SI stoutly defended the ME as the best ever produced. Within days we have a bugs list as long as your arm and a patch which fundamentally attempts to change the game, affecting many people's tactic - yours included it seems - as a result.

If this all singing all dancing ME of 13.1.2 was so good then why did SI make so many changes so quickly?

So you are right to question some of the feedback Shrewnaldo as clearly some things around here do not add up.

[Govnar1]

I have been studding AI vs AI games for past hour and passing, tackling and distance covered stats seem way off real life numbers. Conversion ratio seems to high as well.

I also noted that players run through other players a lot, it's most noticeable in close up replays of packed six yard box action. Especially bizarre is situation (tackle from behind?) where defending player passes through the attacker and collects the ball.

[MacZidane]

I gotta be honest. If you`re moaning about not being able to win any games, then you clearly need to play something else. I am top of the league with Man Utd and I have been on a 7 match unbeaten run. I also played Hoffenheim in the ECC group stage and hammered them 6-0 with Welbeck getting 5 of the goals.

I am playing a 4-2-3-1 with IF`s on the wings.

That's nice for you, but that's not really the point of the discussion. Carry on though, I'm sure you're having great fun.

[wwfan]

I know we can't have a flawless ME, at least I'd like to have a ME that is not schizophrenic, the last patch radically changed the game or better, the way we should play it to experience some success, and don't tell me I'm tactically unsound cause I'm not.

I don't want to be an arse, but having read through your description of your 4-2-4, your system has some serious structural deficiencies. Your short passing instructions for your back line will hinder the possibility of their being able to get the ball upfield to the wingers. They have to go through the central midfield. With the previous ME, not so much of a problem, as the low final third pressing meant they could easily recycle the ball. Now they are under a little more pressure, the lack of passing options will result in regularly losing possession in dangerous areas. Your undermanned midfield and light tackling wingers will then struggle to cope with the counters. You are also very one dimensional in attack, relying on one DLP to spray passes to four attackers, with no overlaps out of defence.

You have some good ideas in your tactic, but I'd argue they aren't being interpreted into the system properly. That, I'd 100% accept, is the fault of the poor in-game documentation.

[Big Yellow]

i started a new game with barca to test the new ME.

overall, still not that impressed.

- wingers will dribble the ball to the touchline, then dribble staight at goal into the post or side netting.

- lots of back pass mistakes turning into goals

- more injuries. first game i lost xavi, fabregas and iniesta to 3 month long injuries - all in the first half.

- attacking headers look like defensive clearance headers that go no where

- centre backs day dream before they decide to turn around and chase defenders on the through ball which often leads to clear chances at goal.

- i did notice increased tackling and closing down - but not enough to say its made a difference defensively as there are still gaps

[smallclone]

I gotta be honest. If you`re moaning about not being able to win any games, then you clearly need to playTelbeck getting 5 of the goals.

I am playing a 4-2-3-1 with IF`s on the wings.

This made me laugh out loud

[wwfan]

Are you therefore saying that the previous ME was simply all wrong then? Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from here. A successful tactic pre-patch should still be a successful tactic now. Might need a few minor tweaks to keep it AS successful, but to say someone has been 'tactically unsound' with a tactic which has clearly worked and now isn't purely because YOU'VE changed how the engine works is a tad disingenuous to say the least.

I've said it before. Your tactics should be based on your players and their strengths, not how your game engine handles them. Because if that's what it is now, all it takes is for someone to crack it with a super-tactic, and you're back to people winning every single game they play. I really wanted this FM to be different to that, and felt it was at first.

As I said earlier, I've not changed my fundamental approach to tactics since FM07, and no engine has ever made them stop working. I've always based my tactic around the same internal logic and then change roles to suit the players I have, but not at the expense of undermining the structural integrity. For example, I would never play two poachers up front, as that would kill the movement I'm after and hurt my overall tactical system.

Hi wwfan,

Is it normal that a tactic that were very sucessuful with the previous ME, can't win a match with the ME?

I ask this because, with your help, i built a very good tactic, that worked very good in the precious ME. I was winning with no problems, playing good football.

With the same tactic, and since the patch... No shots, no goals, no wins!

I've never experienced this. I'd post in the Tactics forum with a breakdown of what is going on and we'll see if we can help.

[Midnight Rob]

I don't want to be an arse, but having read through your description of your 4-2-4, your system has some serious structural deficiencies. Your short passing instructions for your back line will hinder the possibility of their being able to get the ball upfield to the wingers. They have to go through the central midfield. With the previous ME, not so much of a problem, as the low final third pressing meant they could easily recycle the ball. Now they are under a little more pressure, the lack of passing options will result in regularly losing possession in dangerous areas. Your undermanned midfield and light tackling wingers will then struggle to cope with the counters. You are also very one dimensional in attack, relying on one DLP to spray passes to four attackers, with no overlaps out of defence.

You have some good ideas in your tactic, but I'd argue they aren't being interpreted into the system properly. That, I'd 100% accept, is the fault of the poor in-game documentation.

Playing with overlaps should make you more vulnerable to the counter.

I'd also like to point out that the 424 can actually be made to play like the 4231. Again in my view you should be able to move the ball through the midfield as well as having to go down the wings.

424 does not have to be Graham's Taylor's Watford. It is more flexible than that.

edit: I'm talking generally. I haven't seen the other guy's tactic/previous post.

[demonen]

Our experience (the tactical mods, but also the mods in general) is that if you have a structurally sound tactical system, then no ME since FM07's has ever made a jot of difference to your results spread. We also believe that the ME is sound enough now that we can predict which type of tactic will fail and why.

I honestly don't think that's true.

3-5-1-1 variations are entirely sound real-life tactics. They used to be extremely effective pre-patch (probably too effective), but are much less so after the patch, and was generally pretty terrible in FM12. In FM12, playing Sam Allardyce long ball tactics with a big target man was completely ineffective, and resulted in teams such as Stoke being regularly relegated, even though it's a perfectly sound tactic and viable tactic.

Apart from a sound tactical idea, you need to have a tactical idea that is actually supported properly by the match engine. So far in FM, not a single iteration of the match engine has been able to do this, especially when it comes to old or unusual tactics.

[Keyzer Soze]

I've never experienced this. I'd post in the Tactics forum with a breakdown of what is going on and we'll see if we can help.

Theres no need at this point, because i've already deleted that tactic and i'm building a fresh one from scratch.

[wwfan]

Playing with overlaps should make you more vulnerable to the counter.

I'd also like to point out that the 424 can actually be made to play like the 4231. Again in my view you should be able to move the ball through the midfield as well as having to go down the wings.

424 does not have to be Graham's Taylor's Watford. It is more flexible than that.

It's all about balance. No overlaps, and you risk running out of passing options, which is bad with an overmanned midfield. With overlaps, you always have the extra man, but will be in trouble if a player makes a bad passing decision.

I'd disagree about the 4-2-4 being flexible. I don't think you can successfully play a short-passing 4-2-4 in modern football. It needs a degree of attacking directness. It is also pretty unusual nowadays.

[themadsheep2001]

Add me to this crowd. If anything my play has improved slightly. Have never considered myself much of a tactician so there you go, I must have fluked something.

+2 I've been playing the same way since the inception of the TC, never had to redesign any previous approaches for any ME updates. That doesnt mean that there are not flaws, there certainly are, but I dont see it as being random as people make out.

The big personal one for me is that angled throughball from way out wide that defensive players arent reacting to. Also i think full backs tend to run with the ball too much.

[wwfan]

I honestly don't think that's true.

3-5-1-1 variations are entirely sound real-life tactics. They used to be extremely effective pre-patch (probably too effective), but are much less so after the patch, and was generally pretty terrible in FM12. In FM12, playing Sam Allardyce long ball tactics with a big target man was completely ineffective, and resulted in teams such as Stoke being regularly relegated, even though it's a perfectly sound tactic and viable tactic.

Apart from a sound tactical idea, you need to have a tactical idea that is actually supported properly by the match engine. So far in FM, not a single iteration of the match engine has been able to do this, especially when it comes to old or unusual tactics.

Saying 3-5-1-1 is sound means nothing without going into how you expect it to work. All formations are sound if you get them working properly.

I did extremely well experimenting with a long ball game in FM12 and have already advised somebody how to reproduce it (successfully) in FM13. Don't confuse the necessity of a sound structure with the inability to play different styles of football. If you have a sound core structure, you can adapt it to produce all kinds of football, from the 1980s British game to a modern short passing, countering at pace system.