FM2012 difficulty.

[bleventozturk]

He has not failed to see the point. The new update will tweak the morale system which will not only make it challenging for those who are finding it easy but will also make it easier for those who are finding it hard. Read PaulC's posts in the last few pages and you will know what I'm talking about.

Exactly this. What is it that some people still don't understand...

The only people that will moan will be the ones who are (somehow) perfectly happy to unrealistically overachieve with their mediocre players.

[Keyzer Soze]

Exactly this. What is it that some people still don't understand...

The only people that will moan will be the ones who are (somehow) perfectly happy to unrealistically overachieve with their mediocre players.

So, in your opinion, i can think that the game is fine the way it is?

[phnompenhandy]

Exactly this. What is it that some people still don't understand...

The only people that will moan will be the ones who are (somehow) perfectly happy to unrealistically overachieve with their mediocre players.

Unfortunately there are a few too many 'Damn you SI, where the win button?' in these forums

[themadsheep2001]

Yes but others have done saves following your method and failed massively, thats why i say its not as cut and dry as is being made out, if this was a massive issue it would be across the board, i would have won the league by now, not struggling for 5 seasons to break top 3. It does appear with the right set of circumstances things can get too easy, SI will work on that, but it doesnt mean they have dumbed down the game or anything.

Your posts put across what i was trying to say better than mine.

Also there is the issue that right across the board the AI isnt that robust, all factors in making the game "easy"

[Casual]

People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take. Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!

And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...

[tut]

People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take. Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because

anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!

And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...

Well said man! This ist exactly the case, but I am sure Si are already working on the issue and a new patch is comming very soon..

[SeanNUFC]

People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take. Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!

And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...

Very well said mate!

[Erimus1876]

People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take.[/color] Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!

And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...

I agree, very well said.

I highlighted the bits that are at the heart of the matter. You summed it up in a few lines what took me pages to explain

[KUBI]

Managing a top club should be harder, more pressure from everywhere, players, fans, media, board. Week after week, day after day. But it would probably prevent a lot of people to manage a top club. That's the big challenge for the coders and obviously nothing fot a patch, as it needs a lot more than just some adjustments.

[Matej]

Managing a top club should be harder, more pressure from everywhere, players, fans, media, board. Week after week, day after day. But it would probably prevent a lot of people to manage a top club. That's the big challenge for the coders and obviously nothing fot a patch, as it needs a lot more than just some adjustments.

Wow, KUBI and I agreed in something. Finally. Yes, thats very imprtant for the future, if they cant fix it now. Especially this " more pressure from everywhere, players, fans, media, board. Week after week, day after day." Well done KUBI.

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

OK, so at first I found the game much too easy, and wasn't afraid to say so, but I've started a new save with the same team as before (Hannover), and I think I have to revise my opinion. It feels pretty much just like FM2011 now in terms of difficulty, and I'm getting very realistic results. Really enjoying it, too.

I'm changing my opinion to the game being too easy in certain circumstances, but just fine in others. What those circumstances are, then, is the question, I suppose.

[Coentrao]

Are you doing anything different this time? Different formation,signings,etc ?

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

Are you doing anything different this time? Different formation,signings,etc ?

Same team, no signings. I've changed my tactics a bit, but not in a fundamental way, just tweaks, really... and I doubt that I've made them worse.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Its amazing how many believe the GAME should be played their way and no other way. I mean both sides here (easy or hard).

Surely a CHOICE is better for all concerned. The game should have a lot more options to make it harder or easier.

[PaulC]

Same team, no signings. I've changed my tactics a bit, but not in a fundamental way, just tweaks, really... and I doubt that I've made them worse.

How well or badly did you start each season in terms of results?

[jase19]

Just finished my 5th Liverpool season.

Total Trophies:

Premier League: 2

Champions League: 1

FA Cup: 2

League Cup: 1 (to be fair, I only attempted to win it the first year, other than that it was a youth cup)

Notable players purchased (over 5 years):

Neymar, Diarra, Khedira, Hummels, Kyriakos Papadopoulos, Tevez

Notable Sold (over 5 years):

Lucas, Skrtel, Downing, Aquilani, Cole, Tevez (bought for 9m, sold for 17m after 1 full season. thanks!)

So yeah, very successful. But I wouldn't say it's been overly easy either in comparison to what some of you are posting either.

[Icy]

I think that two things should be tweaked to make it less easy:

a) Morale system: Has been already talked a lot and SI is looking to make adjustments for next patch.

b) Free agent signings: At least in the lower leagues where i play the most, after the first season, It's too easy to sign very good players for your category for free, signing a full team to dominate the next season. I think that the AI is not aggressive enough both when retaining or signing them and the players are too whiling to join a team two divisions under their appropriate one.

I have also the feeling, and it could be just a feeling, that players always chose the human team contract offer over a CPU one, or maybe i'm just better negotiating than the CPU, but i tend to offer the players less than what they ask for and still sign them over the CPU competition (maybe the CPU is offering even less than what i do).

Just with those two tweaks the game difficulty would improve a lot, specially for those that enjoy the challenge of starting in the lower divisions.

[FestyF]

I think if transfers are made harder, too many people will start moaning.

a) It shouldn't be easy to find players in the first place.

b) Scout reports shouldn't be too accurate and they should only find lots of good players if you make them scout more than once in a region/country/league.

c) There should also be less number of regen wonderkids and even then there shouldn't be any guarantee that they will become world class.

d) Player/Staff search feature should be made optional.

[Dan.Morris24]

I have to admit i am finding the game quite easy. My first season with Fulham i am just in the tranfer window and sitting second couple of points behind Man City. Only got Welbeck on loan....

[Validicus]

People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take. Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!

And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...

A brilliant post which probably reflects on how a large minority of us have felt for years. The bit in bold is what gets me the most. I don't think you should be able to pick a top 10 team in England/Spain/Germany/Italy and expect to take the title as early as season 1, but it's very possible, or even likely as long as you don't handicap yourself too much. Taking over a small team doesn't really evade much. Case in point, once you get promoted, you have a very good chance of immediately taking the club to the "next level" from relegation fodder. There is no consolidation period where you have to put effort into ensuring that the club enjoys stability in a division, and then MAYBE have a chance at going to the next level. I think a good example would be to consider teams such as Sunderland and WBA in real life. For the better part of a decade or so, they have been yo-yo clubs, going up and down between the Championship and the Premiership, yet now they seem to be building some stability, especially Sunderland. There's no such struggle in FM. Take over a team in the Championship and you have a very good chance of winning the Champions League within about 5 seasons. Take over a top 6/10 team and there's a good chance you'll cement your dominance in that nation (and beyond) as early as season 1 and can build a dynasty thereafter. Take over an obscure team at the very bottom and go on a journey of sorts that will take you up the divisions, usually with back-to-back promotions, and then you reach the same point - the only real difference is that it was delayed. I think that when people offer a suggestion of [manage obscure team x if you think the game is too easy], not only are they inadvertently agreeing with you about the fact that there is an issue where taking over a team of a decent stature makes for an easy game, but all they're really advocating is a delay before reaching the same point with the team suggested. Maybe that enables them to enjoy the game, and good for them if so, but this delay doesn't satisfy everyone. There is still an inevitability about the success and there lies the problem.

At the end of the day, it just feels like whichever team you take over, you are the [insert hero of any reputable action/adventure type game here] and that the AI teams (the enemies that you 1 hit / head shot / splat into the ground along your way) are there to be whacked around until you level up (build a strong team / go up the divisions), conquer all before you and reach the end of the game (make your team the best in the world, or persist with domestic and possibly european dominance until you get bored), rinse and repeat. I don't like to compare playing FM to playing the same video game over and over, but that's how it has felt for a while now due to the level of difficutly and the manner in which the AI self destructs in any medium/long-term save.

[anagain]

I can't buy a win...well nearly anyway.

I started an unemployed career save and I'm just closing in on the end of the 10-11 season. The first club to give me a chance were Skarp of Norway. They were bottom when I joined and had drawn just 4 games out of 10 or so (I forget the actual statistics, but it was bad). I managed to lift them to third bottom in the Norwegian Second, but it was scrappy and we weren't convincing...ever. In the end we were relegated and I quit as we were down to an unplayable division.

A few weeks later I was approached by Kettring who were struggling in the Blue Square Premier. When I joined the outlook was poor and they were 10 or so points adrift of safety. I looked at the squad and really thought they were to good to go down. They were even predicted to finish 19th so they were expected to be safe. My record since then has been something like 5 wins, 3 draws and 12 defeats. Nothing I ever did seemed to work and following on from the few wins we had I could never get players to follow it up with another good performance.

There were glimmers of hope that I might find safety, and at one point we were just 6 points behind the last safe team with them to play next. The game before that I had told the players there was no pressure on them and we had run out 2-0 winners away to a team we shouldn't have beaten. I was hopeful of a good result against Alfreton, the team we were chasing. My striker-come-winger, Jean-Paul Marna, had played a blinder in the 2-0 win and I asked him to play like that but told the team there was no pressure. We went on to lose 4-1 and relegation was an almost certainty.

I couldn't understand it. I was at a loss. I didn't know how we'd played so badly, and Marna was even worse. I came to the conclusion that if the team talk didn't go down great, which it didn't, then we'd lose. A good team talk reaction would mean a good performance and a win or battling draw, but a bad team talk reaction meant a certain defeat. I actually am convinced it has been that way all season.

I know the players never played great for me and I had a bit of toruble with some players demanding games when they'd played awful. I found now ay to tell them they'd get games if they proved it. It was the old 'give me games or I want to go' chat. That is something that has really annoyed me about this version of FM. But when it comes to my team playing so badly most of the time, is that because I'm a new manager with a part time rep? It never went like that in FM11. In FM11 I sailed through games whatever I did. In my Wrexham game on 11 I was unbeaten up to Christmas in the Conference, and I never felt I tried.

So I'm now relegated and can't help thinking It'll be the same in the lower division (North or South). I'm pessimistic about my chances, and to cap it all off several players have asked for transfers upon relegation. I can't give them away, but they want to go.

To cap it all off even more I left my Ass Man in charge for the penultimate game of the season and he beat Cambridge 2-0 away!!! Then the game crashed (some game minimizes problem that means I have to exit - happened twice). In the re run of that match he narrowly lost 3-2. That's still probably better than I'd have gotten from the team. That is after going in to FM12 thinking it'd probably be as easy as FM11 and FM10. It's way harder at the moment, but I'm just as frustrated because it seems abnormally difficult...like I have no chance at all.

Have I just picked two of the hardest teams to manage in the game? Has anyone else played Kettering, because I'm sure no one has been Skarp? Why am I doing so badly? I'm using more or less the same tactics I sailed through games with in FM11 but they don't work. They're not really that much different from the default tactics either.

I hope it gets better next season.

[FestyF]

A brilliant post which probably reflects on how a large minority of us have felt for years. The bit in bold is what gets me the most. I don't think you should be able to pick a top 10 team in England/Spain/Germany/Italy and expect to take the title as early as season 1, but it's very possible, or even likely as long as you don't handicap yourself too much. Taking over a small team doesn't really evade much. Case in point, once you get promoted, you have a very good chance of immediately taking the club to the "next level" from relegation fodder. There is no consolidation period where you have to put effort into ensuring that the club enjoys stability in a division, and then MAYBE have a chance at going to the next level. I think a good example would be to consider teams such as Sunderland and WBA. For the better part of a decade or so, they have been yo-yo clubs, going up and down between the Championship and the Premiership, yet now they seem to be building some stability, especially Sunderland. There's no such struggle in FM. Take over a team in the Championship and you have a very good chance of winning the Champions League within about 5 seasons. Take over a top 6/10 team and there's a good chance you'll cement your dominance in that nation (and beyond) as early as season 1 and can build a dynasty thereafter. Take over an obscure team at the very bottom and go on a journey of sorts that will take you up the divisions, usually with back-to-back promotions, and then you reach the same point - the only real difference is that it was delayed. I think that when people offer a suggestion of [manage obscure team x if you think the game is too easy] don't realise is that they are not only inadvertently agreeing with you about fact that there is an issue where taking over a team of a decent stature makes for an easy game, but that all they're really advocating is a delay before reaching the same point with the team suggested.

At the end of the day, it just feels like whichever team you take over, you are the [insert hero of any reputable action/adventure type game here] and that the AI teams (the enemies that you 1 hit / head shot / splat into the ground along your way) are there to be whacked around until you level up (build a strong team / go up the divisions, conquer all before and reach the end of the game (make your team the best in the world, or persist with domestic and possibly european dominance until you get bored), rinse and repeat. I don't like to compare playing FM to playing the same video game over and over, but that's how it has felt for a while now due to the level of difficutly and the manner in which the AI self destructs in any medium/long-term save.

Couldn't have explained this better myself.

FM has become a racing game where you are in a competition with yourself only. Start 5 different saves and see which save wins the league/CL first. It shouldn't be like that. AI should at least offer some decent challenge. But if SI is satisfied with sales numbers then......

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

How well or badly did you start each season in terms of results?

Well, on the first save I was unbeaten, and basically just stayed that way until I stopped playing. But on this one, the harder one, I also started the season with three league wins, before going on more of a roller coaster ride of wins / draws / defeats.

Anyway... anectodes aren't data, and all that, and I didn't keep the first save game file, unfortunately, so I can't do a proper comparison.

The morale issue is still there, though: My morale is mostly good to superb, and very easy to fix if it drops, like everyone is saying. Also - in FM2011, if I lost a couple of matches in a row, I knew that I would be in trouble, because morale would take a hit right away. This year, that doesn't seem to be the case so much? I can lose, and my players... don't seem to worry about it?

EDIT:

I actually just caught up with the RL Bundesliga table, so I had a look. IRL, Hannover are sixth after 12 matches, with 5 wins, 4 draws, 3 losses. In my game, I'm fourth after the same number of matches, with 6 wins, 3 draws, 3 losses. That's... actually pretty darn close. So, yeah, so far, it seems fine. Still don't know what the difference is though, and it's early in the season, so I'll see how it goes...

[grep]

Well, on the first save I was unbeaten, and basically just stayed that way until I stopped playing.

This statement summarizes perfectly the whole thread in few words.

That's a the reason why this issue is so important within FM, if the game is too easy gamers will stop playing it after few easily won games. I also have stopped playing it since roughly a week due to the same reason.

I am glad that SI is taking care about the issue.

[milnerpoint]

But you ignored the rest of his post, that is the biggest problem with this thread, you guys are happy to quote anything that backs up the point, but completely ignore anything that says the opposite. I would have thought this statement was just as important as his first sentece and again backs up the point that this is not a cut and dry situation.

I actually just caught up with the RL Bundesliga table, so I had a look. IRL, Hannover are sixth after 12 matches, with 5 wins, 4 draws, 3 losses. In my game, I'm fourth after the same number of matches, with 6 wins, 3 draws, 3 losses. That's... actually pretty darn close. So, yeah, so far, it seems fine.

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

Yeah, Grep, read my whole post.

[FestyF]

But you ignored the rest of his post, that is the biggest problem with this thread, you guys are happy to quote anything that backs up the point, but completely ignore anything that says the opposite. I would have thought this statement was just as important as his first sentece and again backs up the point that this is not a cut and dry situation.

So should we just keep starting new games in a hope that some day one of those games will be challenging?

[Validicus]

But you ignored the rest of his post, that is the biggest problem with this thread, you guys are happy to quote anything that backs up the point, but completely ignore anything that says the opposite. I would have thought this statement was just as important as his first sentece and again backs up the point that this is not a cut and dry situation.

Thing is, if 10 people here started a save as Hannover, it would be virtually guaranteed that a majority would win the Bundesliga in season 1 (and possibly even be unbeaten all season, just as he was in the other save). A few may fail to accomplish this for whatever reason. Nevertheless, that doesn't cover up the fact that overachieving is likely. It would seem your argument is along the lines of "Well, overachieving won't happen every single time, therefore all is well"?

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

So we just keep starting new games in a hope that some day one of those games will be challenging?

No, we hopefully find out why there's a difference, and why there seems to be a split with some players having problems and some not.

[Super Bladesman]

Thing is, if 10 people here started a save as Hannover, it would be virtually guaranteed that a majority would win the Bundesliga in season 1 (and possibly even be unbeaten all season, just as he was in the other save). A few may fail to accomplish this for whatever reason. Nevertheless, that doesn't cover up the fact that overachieving is likely. It would seem your argument is along the lines of "Well, overachieving won't happen every single time, therefore all is well"?

Is that a challenge?

[Validicus]

Is that a challenge?

Perhaps. At least it would be a fair bit more constructive than for us all to be squabbling on here. A group of people taking a test and reporting back and comparing/contrasting the findings could do wonders for the thread.

[milnerpoint]

So should we just keep starting new games in a hope that some day one of those games will be challenging?

Thing is, if 10 people here started a save as Hannover, it would be virtually guaranteed that a majority would win the Bundesliga in season 1 (and possibly even be unbeaten all season, just as he was in the other save). A few may fail to accomplish this for whatever reason. Nevertheless, that doesn't cover up the fact that overachieving is likely. It would seem your argument is along the lines of "Well, overachieving won't happen every single time, therefore all is well"?

Well to begin with you can both stop twisting what i am saying, i have said all along this needs and will be looked at, but its not as cut and dry as everyone who starts with any team will go unbeaten no matter what happens. You cannot guarantee anything and this thread has not shown anything other than with the right circumstances you can over achieve, it does not mean every single game ends up the same way, otherwise there would be no votes for "about right" at all. Stop thinking that your views are the only important thing here, the people who say the opposite to you are just as important.

[x42bn6]

Of course there are some who won't run into this problem. However, the fact that this problem exists and seems to be fairly frequent is an issue in itself.

It's not important to "balance your word against mine" - we are looking for the presence of a bug that can be easily-replicated - and it looks like one exists.

Some people may never be able to replicate the issue - but that it can be replicated by others is the issue.

If you never run into this issue, you shouldn't care if this issue is fixed.

[FestyF]

Well to begin with you can both stop twisting what i am saying, i have said all along this needs and will be looked at, but its not as cut and dry as everyone who starts with any team will go unbeaten no matter what happens. You cannot guarantee anything and this thread has not shown anything other than with the right circumstances you can over achieve, it does not mean every single game ends up the same way, otherwise there would be no votes for "about right" at all. Stop thinking that your views are the only important thing here, the people who say the opposite to you are just as important.

Some/Lots of "about right" voters are first timers/casual gamers. Some/Lots of the voters that are finding it too easy haven't voted/didn't bother to vote/use this forum.

All we are saying is overachieving shouldn't be that ridiculously easy and it should not be possible to overachieve 8 out of 10 times. It should be at max 1 or 2 out of 10 times.

[Validicus]

I don't think anyone on here has said that anything will happen every time. I can't say I've read the whole thread in order to know what you have / haven't said. If, as you say, you're of the view that things need to be looked at, I fail to see why you're debating with those who...say things needs to be looked at?

Anyway, something that probably has been overlooked is how the poll doesn't account for the fact that a lot of people may be happy with the game's level of difficulty, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they find the game challenging. It could simply mean that a fair amount of people are of the view that the current level of difficulty allows them to enjoy the game (even if accolades are easy), and therefore it's 'about right' for that reason.

/idle speculation

[milnerpoint]

Some/Lots of "about right" voters are first timers/casual gamers.

Says who?

I don't think anyone on here has said that anything will happen every time. I can't say I've read the whole thread in order to know what you have / haven't said. If, as you say, you're of the view that things need to be looked at, I fail to see why you're debating with those who...say things needs to be looked at?

Anyway, something that probably has been overlooked is how the poll doesn't account for the fact that a lot of people may be happy with the game's level of difficulty, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they find the game challenging. It could simply mean that a fair amount of people are of the view that the current level of difficulty allows them to enjoy the game (even if accolades are easy), and therefore it's 'about right' for that reason.

/idle speculation

But you said this,

it would be virtually guaranteed that a majority would win the Bundesliga in season 1

Which basically means everytime something similar will happen. My point is this is not as cut and dry as they have made the game easier, which was the general feel of this thread, yes there is an issue, but its not a case of the game being dumbed down for casual gamers, its a case of with the right situation something can happen you would not expect. What we need to do to help is provide Paul with those circumstances so he can look into the problem properly.

[grep]

Yeah, Grep, read my whole post.

For the sake of curiosity, be honest please, why did you quit that save after many won games ?

[FestyF]

Says who?

People with common sense.

Which basically means everytime something similar will happen. My point is this is not as cut and dry as they have made the game easier, which was the general feel of this thread, yes there is an issue, but its not a case of the game being dumbed down for casual gamers, its a case of with the right situation something can happen you would not expect. What we need to do to help is provide Paul with those circumstances so he can look into the problem properly.

Those 'right situations' have always been there in every FM version. Thing is, those 'right situations' are too frequent this year and people have provided enough circumstances for PaulC to have a look at hence according to SI, they are already looking into it.

[Erimus1876]

So should we just keep starting new games in a hope that some day one of those games will be challenging?

Speaking from my own experience with FM12 thats exactly what I've had to do. I've now started my SIXTH save in two weeks and finally have a game going that is challenging me - but I must add I'm using FMRTE to handicap morale once it reaches superb in too many first teamers. I'm beyond caring wether this is the sole cause of my game being challenging or not because I finally have an enjoyable game going where I actually feel like the football manager and not just a football spectator who shouts at his team from the stands and gets them to play like Brazil.

C'est la Vie !

[milnerpoint]

People with common sense.

Those 'right situations' have always been there in every FM version. Thing is, those 'right situation' are too frequent this year and people have provided enough circumstances for PaulC to have a look at hence according to SI, they are already looking into it.

Amazing how you can tell how long these people have played the game by one vote on one poll, that is some talent, but it really does back up my earlier statement that the feeling from this thread is "we're right if you dont agree your an idiot".

[x42bn6]

Amazing how you can tell how long these people have played the game by one vote on one poll, that is some talent, but it really does back up my earlier statement that the feeling from this thread is "we're right if you dont agree your an idiot".

The perfect state is that the game is appropriately challenging for every single user. That some users find it not challenging is an issue, regardless of how many don't find it challenging.

A bug that is difficult to replicate or only affects a certain set of users is still a bug.

[milnerpoint]

The perfect state is that the game is appropriately challenging for every single user. That some users find it not challenging is an issue, regardless of how many don't find it challenging.

A bug that is difficult to replicate or only affects a certain set of users is still a bug.

I never said its not a problem, i never said it should be ignored, if your going to drop in and pick apart what im saying at least read my posts on the subject first. Its does need and is being looked at, but that doesnt mean its a case of every single person who plays the game finds it too easy, that is why SI need to find the right balance between everything.

[grep]

If 30% have an opinion and 70% have a different one there will be no room to convince each other of course.

The main will of this thread is to convince SI instead.

It seems after weeks we have somehow obtained the deserved attention.

[FestyF]

Amazing how you can tell how long these people have played the game by one vote on one poll, that is some talent, but it really does back up my earlier statement that the feeling from this thread is "we're right if you dont agree your an idiot".

If you want to call yourself that, it's your problem.

[Super Bladesman]

Keep up this bickering and we'll be getting another potentially useful thread closed, I suspect.

[FestyF]

I never said its not a problem, i never said it should be ignored

What are you arguing about then?

[Super Bladesman]

Perhaps. At least it would be a fair bit more constructive than for us all to be squabbling on here. A group of people taking a test and reporting back and comparing/contrasting the findings could do wonders for the thread.

Challenge duly accepted. I've never managed in Germany before, and know next to nothing about the league.

Hannover predicted 10th.

I'll try initially not to sign any players, and use the 4-1-2-1-2 formation my backroom staff have recommended.

[Kriss]

Keep up this bickering and we'll be getting another potentially useful thread closed, I suspect.

Yup, it's getting pretty close.

I suggested several pages back that people on both sides of the fence should provide examples and should also see if restarting under exactly the same circumstances produces exactly the same scenario.

I know of some examples outwith this thread which indicate there is a problem, but it isn't evident that this problem is a "fixed factor" rather that it's random.

I'd guess we have to be looking at the randoms that the game creates when it sets up for the first time (as I don't even know what they all are I'm not going to be much help:))

[egesagin]

I think if transfers are made harder, too many people will start moaning.

a) It shouldn't be easy to find players in the first place.

b) Scout reports shouldn't be too accurate and they should only find lots of good players if you make them scout more than once in a region/country/league.

c) There should also be less number of regen wonderkids and even then there shouldn't be any guarantee that they will become world class.

d) Player/Staff search feature should be made optional.

Seriously? Come on.. In FM11, I hated my long careers because of the lousy regens. In Real Madrid and Barcelona, the best players were at most Craig Bellamy quality. I think the new regen distribution is fantastic and makes for the continuation of the football world as we know, with many quality players.

And there is no guarantee that they will becaome superstars. I have a player wiith -9 ability, yeah he may not be a regen but the code works the same I think, his determination and work rate are really low. He's been playing in the starting 11 in for 3 years, being tutored by quality players. My training facilities and coaches are top quality, but he didn't become a quality player. He didn't even become a moderate player so no, there is no guarantee that a player with a high PA will become a fantastic player. Especially determination, work rate and injury proneness are the key attributes for that.

I disagree partly on the scout reports. If a scout's judging CA ability is, let's say, 14, than when we buy the player, his abilities should be better or worse. But a scout with 20/20 ca and pa abilities should do just fine. However, the number of that good scouts should be lowered and the chances that you may sigh them to a low or moderate rep club should be lowered drastically.

Player and staff search screen is not realistic at all. There should be a more realistic approach, without the abilities. Perhaps the search page can show us "in form players", "popular players", "most talked about players" and "up and comers" etc. so we can't just type in the required attributes and find quality players for cheap prices.

Finding players.. Well if you have a good scouting system and if you are a popular club that agents offer players, you can find players easily. I think the numbers are fine, but the vast number of players that your mediocre scout finds should be gambles as for their abilities. For example, in an old FIFA Manager game, there was that thing and when you signed a player, a news report appeared saying "XXX turned out to be better/worse than expected" and when you take a look at his player screen, you could see that his attributes are different than they were when you scouted him. I think that would be a great addition to FM, making the game much more realistic, and "realistically" harder.

[Super Bladesman]

Yup, it's getting pretty close.

I suggested several pages back that people on both sides of the fence should provide examples and should also see if restarting under exactly the same circumstances produces exactly the same scenario.

I know of some examples outwith this thread which indicate there is a problem, but it isn't evident that this problem is a "fixed factor" rather that it's random.

I'd guess we have to be looking at the randoms that the game creates when it sets up for the first time (as I don't even know what they all are I'm not going to be much help:))

No, I don't know either. I'm not sure how best to hunt for something like this - so I'm going to start with something unknown to me, and do as little as I can. At least then I should be taking myself out of the equation somewhat, and hey - it'll be just like being at work then