FM2012 difficulty.

[Keyzer Soze]

I just hope that, after the next patch, this forum will not get flooded with threads with people complaining that they loose games against weaker teams, that they loose games against a team with low morale when our team is with great morale, etc etc etc

Because, with FM2010 and FM2011 i saw hundrends of posts like that.

[egesagin]

Well SI should take real caution with this and make the game harder ONLY if it's reallly really necessary, which I think it isn't sicne when I do some tests like no tactics and click continue etc., the results are totally realistic. So if they make it harder because of a few odd game runs, they will have to deal with the majority which will be a much harder battle

[milnerpoint]

I just hope that, after the next patch, this forum will not get flooded with threads with people complaining that they loose games against weaker teams, that they loose games against a team with low morale when our team is with great morale, etc etc etc

Because, with FM2010 and FM2011 i saw hundrends of posts like that.

Therein lies the problem, whatever is changed has to be balanced so it does not knock things too far the other way, again this is why i have said its not as cut and dry as it seems, there is a lot to be considered here before anything can be decided. Thankfully we have Paul on the case.

[BiggusD]

A brilliant post which probably reflects on how a large minority of us have felt for years. The bit in bold is what gets me the most. I don't think you should be able to pick a top 10 team in England/Spain/Germany/Italy and expect to take the title as early as season 1, but it's very possible, or even likely as long as you don't handicap yourself too much. Taking over a small team doesn't really evade much. Case in point, once you get promoted, you have a very good chance of immediately taking the club to the "next level" from relegation fodder. There is no consolidation period where you have to put effort into ensuring that the club enjoys stability in a division, and then MAYBE have a chance at going to the next level. I think a good example would be to consider teams such as Sunderland and WBA in real life. For the better part of a decade or so, they have been yo-yo clubs, going up and down between the Championship and the Premiership, yet now they seem to be building some stability, especially Sunderland. There's no such struggle in FM. Take over a team in the Championship and you have a very good chance of winning the Champions League within about 5 seasons. Take over a top 6/10 team and there's a good chance you'll cement your dominance in that nation (and beyond) as early as season 1 and can build a dynasty thereafter. Take over an obscure team at the very bottom and go on a journey of sorts that will take you up the divisions, usually with back-to-back promotions, and then you reach the same point - the only real difference is that it was delayed. I think that when people offer a suggestion of [manage obscure team x if you think the game is too easy], not only are they inadvertently agreeing with you about the fact that there is an issue where taking over a team of a decent stature makes for an easy game, but all they're really advocating is a delay before reaching the same point with the team suggested. Maybe that enables them to enjoy the game, and good for them if so, but this delay doesn't satisfy everyone. There is still an inevitability about the success and there lies the problem.

At the end of the day, it just feels like whichever team you take over, you are the [insert hero of any reputable action/adventure type game here] and that the AI teams (the enemies that you 1 hit / head shot / splat into the ground along your way) are there to be whacked around until you level up (build a strong team / go up the divisions), conquer all before you and reach the end of the game (make your team the best in the world, or persist with domestic and possibly european dominance until you get bored), rinse and repeat. I don't like to compare playing FM to playing the same video game over and over, but that's how it has felt for a while now due to the level of difficutly and the manner in which the AI self destructs in any medium/long-term save.

Are you sure I didn't write this?

[x42bn6]

I think it's blatantly obvious that some might be negatively affected and impact analysis will always be conducted as part of any bug fix.

[Casual]

At the end of the day, it just feels like whichever team you take over, you are the [insert hero of any reputable action/adventure type game here] and that the AI teams (the enemies that you 1 hit / head shot / splat into the ground along your way) are there to be whacked around until you level up (build a strong team / go up the divisions), conquer all before you and reach the end of the game (make your team the best in the world, or persist with domestic and possibly european dominance until you get bored), rinse and repeat. I don't like to compare playing FM to playing the same video game over and over, but that's how it has felt for a while now due to the level of difficutly and the manner in which the AI self destructs in any medium/long-term save.

Exactly. My comparison in a Serbian forum I visit was with movies. E.g people who love the no-brain action movies where the main character kills 300 thousand aliens and zombies, and people who like more intelligent movies that have a little bit more depth. For the mental complex of a limited man such thrash action movie KICKS ASS! They are happy when they watch it, and who am I to take that away from them?

The same thing is with FM. I always knew guys or had friends who liked to play FM with just clicking continue, playing matches in highest possible speed, and generally not meddling to much with all the options that game offers, all the options that in my opinion made this game beautiful over the years. They are perfectly happy with that, but unlike the movies where you can choose not to watch a stupid movie, here we don't have much choice, and I think SI's priority should be us who are hard core fans of the game more than a decade, and us who see the point of football and FM. If SI wants to get more casual players, that's fine, but changing the games complexity and worsening things that were once the main virtue of the game will be catastrophic as I'm sure that the serious old school FM players wouldnt give money to buy something that is getting more unrealistic year by year.

We can just hope that's not the case, and that we won't have to wait until next year to play the game we once loved.

[grep]

To everybody :

Please do not swallow the bait of who tries to close this thread insulting and offending.

Just be polite and smooth and if someone insults, just report the post to moderators so they have evidence of forum breaking rules and they can therefore do their job banning the author of the insult.

Thanks

[teodoro]

I'm a hardcore gamer for a long time.

My experience with FM2011 was very good.

Fm2012 is really easier?

I want to buy FM2012 now that the recent patch is out

The ease of play of which is discussed in this thread blocked me and I'm undecided.

I want to avoid losing time without challenge.

What is your advice?

Please don't tell me to start with a minor club.

[Casual]

I'm a hardcore gamer for a long time.

My experience with FM2011 was very good.

Fm2012 is really easier?

I want to buy FM2012 now that the recent patch is out

The ease of play of which is discussed in this thread blocked me and I'm undecided.

I want to avoid losing time without challenge.

What is your advice?

Please don't tell me to start with a minor club.

My advice would be to wait for the next update and see by the comments if anythings changed to better...because at the moment the game is unplayable imo

[BiggusD]

I agree that the issue discussed in 657 posts so far in this thread is not about one "bug". It is, as milnerpoint said, more complicated than that.

A) the main issue is that the new team talk system is much better, more intuitive and thus makes failure in that aspect of the game less likely... while the morale "engine" stayed the same as in FM11. The increased ease of maintaining good morale and highly motivated players make the game easy for those who have mastered the other two aspects of the game.

B) the secondary issue is the lack of team building and ambition of the AI. There is no competition for good, cheap players regardless of which club you choose to manage, so while you inevitably build a better team the AI is inevitably weakened over time. This issue is unchanged since FM11 and FM10.3, but I recall having to reject more offers before that. I would personally prefer to reject offers repeatedly (if the logic behind the "final rejection" was improved - I remember the same club started all over again after a few weeks) than to see big clubs have the same starting 11 ten years into the future (after they have signed the players on their starting short-list).

C) the tertiary issue is the fact that all the "continue = win" testing saves presented on this forum used the standard tactics proposed by the staff and thus they start with a tactic the team is used to. This is a huge advantage that is surely intended to help newbies, but when used by veterans unbalance the game. I don't think there is an easy way to "fix" this issue, as I think it works as intended. Earlier I read a proposal to make poor-quality players less inclined to learn "complicated tactics", and I think adjusting how the players deal with tactics is the way to go: but not because of a general CA requirement, rather I propose to make the rate of passing failure for players with less-than-impressive Passing when asked to play a quick or slow passing game much higher than today. Also, the rate of dribbling failure for players with low Dribbling should be higher so that tactics relying on "runs" to unbalance defences (Often Run With Ball) would fail at a higher rate than today. In other words; if you don't have players with good attributes you would have to employ simple tactics and play "basic football" trying to take advantage of the few strengths each one player has. This isn't necessary today because success rate isn't sufficiently tied to proficiency in the related attribute.

[milnerpoint]

I'm a hardcore gamer for a long time.

My experience with FM2011 was very good.

Fm2012 is really easier?

I want to buy FM2012 now that the recent patch is out

The ease of play of which is discussed in this thread blocked me and I'm undecided.

I want to avoid losing time without challenge.

What is your advice?

Please don't tell me to start with a minor club.

I would say get it, i am 5 seasons in and yet to notice any real change from FM11, its not guaranteed you will have any issues, even if you read about them on the forums.

[FestyF]

I'm a hardcore gamer for a long time.

My experience with FM2011 was very good.

Fm2012 is really easier?

I want to buy FM2012 now that the recent patch is out

The ease of play of which is discussed in this thread blocked me and I'm undecided.

I want to avoid losing time without challenge.

What is your advice?

Please don't tell me to start with a minor club.

If you want an easier game where you can just win with minimum of effort, go for it otherwise wait for a patch or next year's version.

[egesagin]

63% of the people think the game is just the right amount difficult. I've been playing FM since 2005, and before that CM. I can overachieve with any club but still, I think this stands right where FM12 was. Perhaps wait for the motivation patch and then buy it but I don't think it'll be a major difference. My experience says that the game works differently in different computers for some reason, hence the different results of the same tests.

Compared to AI managers, most of us are Mourinho's and until the technology is much much better, we can't have a perfectly realistic game so if you have a good tactic, you will overachieve. The only way to make it harder is to make the AI cheat, and that would scuk too. So give them some credit, they're making their best efforts to make a good AI here but with this level of technology at hand, it's impossible to satisfy this "hardcore" minority's needs. At least understand why it can't be made, before demanding it.

[milnerpoint]

I agree that the issue discussed in 657 posts so far in this thread is not about one "bug". It is, as milnerpoint said, more complicated than that.

A) the main issue is that the new team talk system is much better, more intuitive and thus makes failure in that aspect of the game less likely... while the morale "engine" stayed the same as in FM11. The increased ease of maintaining good morale and highly motivated players make the game easy for those who have mastered the other two aspects of the game.

B) the secondary issue is the lack of team building and ambition of the AI. There is no competition for good, cheap players regardless of which club you choose to manage, so while you inevitably build a better team the AI is inevitably weakened over time. This issue is unchanged since FM11 and FM10.3, but I recall having to reject more offers before that. I would personally prefer to reject offers repeatedly (if the logic behind the "final rejection" was improved - I remember the same club started all over again after a few weeks) than to see big clubs have the same starting 11 ten years into the future (after they have signed the players on their starting short-list).

C) the tertiary issue is the fact that all the "continue = win" testing saves presented on this forum used the standard tactics proposed by the staff and thus they start with a tactic the team is used to. This is a huge advantage that is surely intended to help newbies, but when used by veterans unbalance the game. I don't think there is an easy way to "fix" this issue, as I think it works as intended. Earlier I read a proposal to make poor-quality players less inclined to learn "complicated tactics", and I think adjusting how the players deal with tactics is the way to go: but not because of a general CA requirement, rather I propose to make the rate of passing failure for players with less-than-impressive Passing when asked to play a quick or slow passing game much higher than today. Also, the rate of dribbling failure for players with low Dribbling should be higher so that tactics relying on "runs" to unbalance defences (Often Run With Ball) would fail at a higher rate than today. In other words; if you don't have players with good attributes you would have to employ simple tactics and play "basic football" trying to take advantage of the few strengths each one player has. This isn't necessary today because success rate isn't sufficiently tied to proficiency in the related attribute.

Good post on it all Biggus, its not often we agree on something but your spot on there mate.

[egesagin]

Yeah, great post Biggus but I honestly don't believe that the level of AI you guys are dreaming about is unachievable at this stage. Simply because we lack the technology and like I said, the only way around it is to make the AI cheat which will cause a thousand topics to pop up. Transfer and team building ambition can be achieved btw, I'm talking about the tactical stuff and that the AI learning your tactics and studying their oponents games etc. But with the current technology, even making the clubs do realistic transfers can make the game twice as realistic and harder too

[FestyF]

So the conclusion is teodoro, since you are a hardcore gamer, FM 12 is not for you and us hardcore gamers who want a challenge will need to wait until something is done to balance the game.

[Icy]

I agree that the issue discussed in 657 posts so far in this thread is not about one "bug". It is, as milnerpoint said, more complicated than that.

A) the main issue is that the new team talk system is much better, more intuitive and thus makes failure in that aspect of the game less likely... while the morale "engine" stayed the same as in FM11. The increased ease of maintaining good morale and highly motivated players make the game easy for those who have mastered the other two aspects of the game.

B) the secondary issue is the lack of team building and ambition of the AI. There is no competition for good, cheap players regardless of which club you choose to manage, so while you inevitably build a better team the AI is inevitably weakened over time. This issue is unchanged since FM11 and FM10.3, but I recall having to reject more offers before that. I would personally prefer to reject offers repeatedly (if the logic behind the "final rejection" was improved - I remember the same club started all over again after a few weeks) than to see big clubs have the same starting 11 ten years into the future (after they have signed the players on their starting short-list).

C) the tertiary issue is the fact that all the "continue = win" testing saves presented on this forum used the standard tactics proposed by the staff and thus they start with a tactic the team is used to. This is a huge advantage that is surely intended to help newbies, but when used by veterans unbalance the game. I don't think there is an easy way to "fix" this issue, as I think it works as intended. Earlier I read a proposal to make poor-quality players less inclined to learn "complicated tactics", and I think adjusting how the players deal with tactics is the way to go: but not because of a general CA requirement, rather I propose to make the rate of passing failure for players with less-than-impressive Passing when asked to play a quick or slow passing game much higher than today. Also, the rate of dribbling failure for players with low Dribbling should be higher so that tactics relying on "runs" to unbalance defences (Often Run With Ball) would fail at a higher rate than today. In other words; if you don't have players with good attributes you would have to employ simple tactics and play "basic football" trying to take advantage of the few strengths each one player has. This isn't necessary today because success rate isn't sufficiently tied to proficiency in the related attribute.

Good post, agree with everything.

A) is a big issue this year as team talks are way to easy.

1) We know each player reaction immediately after a talk, and while in real life some players are more expressive and we could hit if they are happy, or motivated, etc, some players are more shy and do not give out any indication. In FM12 we all are top players psychologist that can read every player mind.

2) You have several chances to manage the moral, if you screw up in the general talk, you can issue a position talk or personal talk.

When you have 1+2 then it's always 3, so we can manipulate our players minds anytime as needed.

To avoid it as i have setup the own rule of only using the team talk and not the position or personal talks.

[jozza800]

For me each iteration of the game follows the same pattern, especially since the visual ME was brought in. The difficulty for me is 'relearning' each versions match engine. things that work from the previous version dont in the next. The difficulty is the initial bedding in period. It's been the same for each version, I will struggle with all sorts of teams early on and then learn what makes the engine tick, which can then be applied to each subsequent job/career/save afterwards.

Because there have been no ME changes to this year's game (which I wish I didn't know!) I have been able to simply slip into an already warm pair of slippers! Making the game that much easier.

[egesagin]

@Icy: Well I think that triple team talk system is perfect. We think the team plays bad and get mad at them. But the midfield in particular isn't that bad and we talk to them and tell them that they weren't that bad but they can improve. So they won't feel that we treated them unfairly by just yelling at them in general team talk. That's how it's done irl too so I seriously can't understand why people don't like it. Yes it's too easy, but the system is realistic. The consequences is what needs tweaking.

[Icy]

@Icy: Well I think that triple team talk system is perfect. We think the team plays bad and get mad at them. But the midfield in particular isn't that bad and we talk to them and tell them that they weren't that bad but they can improve. So they won't feel that we treated them unfairly by just yelling at them in general team talk. That's how it's done irl too so I seriously can't understand why people don't like it. Yes it's too easy, but the system is realistic. The consequences is what needs tweaking.

Yes but in that case... we shouldn't see the moral changes by each player after each talk, maybe just the reactions of the more expressive players, else the three chances become too much of an advantage.

I also wonder if the AI also uses three different talks the same way we do, as at least your own assistant coaches don't when you ask them for it, they just issue a general talk that most of the time doesn't produce any reaction at all, and then are the position or individual talks that we issue ourselves, the big difference makers for what i have seen so far.

[Fede_Gu]

I think that with LLM rules and an add of personal realism this game is a very good simulator.

- FoW (absolutely necessary)

- No 'Player/Staff Search' (doesn't exist in real life)

- No numeric skills value in player profile, I use bars (numbers are admitted in phisical attributes but how on the earth I can say Player 'A' has a determination of 18 and 'Player B' of 10? Bars are more realistic)

- I add new staff and new players only if they are proposing themselves to me, or I've seen them in a match or I've heard about them in a news in-game.

- Absolutely no downloaded tactics

- Absolutely no downloaded trainings

- Absolutely no wonderkids lists

- ABSOLUTELY NO SCOUT PROGRAMS!

With an initial tweak to my reputation (don't know what implications will have but I can't start with average CA, Rep or Skills if I have no experience in pro football) and a reali-life style of playing (team-talks included) I think this game is not easier like many of you are saying.

[egesagin]

You're right but are you sure that what we see is the final result? For exampla after a mediocre first half, I told my players that they should perform better. Only 3 players got motivated, no changes were seen in the others. But then we played really well and won the game. Perhaps they already implemented the fact that we may not understand their reactions all the time, but not in a good way since we can see almost all of their reactions. All in all I agree with you on that, we shouldn't be seeing so much. It's just abusing the consequences after that..

@Fede_Gu: What is FoW? :$

[FestyF]

@Fede_Gu: How do you do initial tweak to your reputation?

[Coentrao]

FoW= Fog of War.

Having the attributes from the players "hidden" until you scout them.

[Fede_Gu]

@Fede_Gu: How do you do initial tweak to your reputation?

FMRTE.

I use it one time and one only at the start of the game.

[Miek]

Have SI released a statement where they said they would make the game more difficult? This true?

If so, any news when?

[themadsheep2001]

I agree that the issue discussed in 657 posts so far in this thread is not about one "bug". It is, as milnerpoint said, more complicated than that.

A) the main issue is that the new team talk system is much better, more intuitive and thus makes failure in that aspect of the game less likely... while the morale "engine" stayed the same as in FM11. The increased ease of maintaining good morale and highly motivated players make the game easy for those who have mastered the other two aspects of the game.

B) the secondary issue is the lack of team building and ambition of the AI. There is no competition for good, cheap players regardless of which club you choose to manage, so while you inevitably build a better team the AI is inevitably weakened over time. This issue is unchanged since FM11 and FM10.3, but I recall having to reject more offers before that. I would personally prefer to reject offers repeatedly (if the logic behind the "final rejection" was improved - I remember the same club started all over again after a few weeks) than to see big clubs have the same starting 11 ten years into the future (after they have signed the players on their starting short-list).

C) the tertiary issue is the fact that all the "continue = win" testing saves presented on this forum used the standard tactics proposed by the staff and thus they start with a tactic the team is used to. This is a huge advantage that is surely intended to help newbies, but when used by veterans unbalance the game. I don't think there is an easy way to "fix" this issue, as I think it works as intended. Earlier I read a proposal to make poor-quality players less inclined to learn "complicated tactics", and I think adjusting how the players deal with tactics is the way to go: but not because of a general CA requirement, rather I propose to make the rate of passing failure for players with less-than-impressive Passing when asked to play a quick or slow passing game much higher than today. Also, the rate of dribbling failure for players with low Dribbling should be higher so that tactics relying on "runs" to unbalance defences (Often Run With Ball) would fail at a higher rate than today. In other words; if you don't have players with good attributes you would have to employ simple tactics and play "basic football" trying to take advantage of the few strengths each one player has. This isn't necessary today because success rate isn't sufficiently tied to proficiency in the related attribute.

Really good post. The first point explains really well the intuitiveness of FM12. They got that part so well done, its made the AI shortcomings even more obvious.

Squad building looks a little better this year, but its still some way off IMO

Interesting case about C) not sure there is too much they can do, because as you say the presets are doing what they are supposed to.

[Matej]

Hall of Fame posts : 605, 620, 660, and what Fede_Gu said about FoW, or hidden attributes. I already wrote about that in other thread.

My basic idea would be that when you are manager in the new club, you see attributes something like this : HEading from 12 to 17. WHen you are couple of months in that club, you can see better situation , like 14- 16. After maybe half a year, you can see exactly how good player is. Same is in scouting, better scout is, gap bettween min and max is shorter.

But like i said at start of the post, SI please read 605, 620, 660 posts. Its what bothers us for years playin FM. AI should have great managers, like they are in the real life. Thats why i always wanted difficulty settings. I dont want that you lose new players and casual gamers, but then you must make difficulty settings. All great strategy, simulation games have it. We are not all the same. We dont have all same experiance. Someone is better, someone is smarter. SOmeone just want quick fun, someone thinks FM is life, not the game. THere are so many reasons for some optional settings. We dont have to call it difficulty, if you dont like that word.

Its not shame to play games on easy, normal, hard. i play one strategy game for half a year and i cant beat that game on hard, im playin on normal. Its not end of the world, i enjoy playin that game.

Btw, this is one of the best threads ever.

[milnerpoint]

I was actually going to say Biggus the squad building i have seen so far is a bit better this year, im obviously not long enough into the game to really say, but early signs are encouraging. I dont think they will have it near what we are looking for yet, but any improvement is a good thing really, it was quite terrible in previous versions at times.

[Raymubdo21]

I think with the game still being quite new, you still can't say fully whether it is really easy or incredibly hard, just enjoy it for now with different teams and then gripe about it when you win everything every year and every game on a different note one thing that is hard about the game is Casillas!!!! does my nut in every time I play Madrid

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I was actually going to say Biggus the squad building i have seen so far is a bit better this year, im obviously not long enough into the game to really say, but early signs are encouraging. I dont think they will have it near what we are looking for yet, but any improvement is a good thing really, it was quite terrible in previous versions at times.

Careful, you'll be getting the sack.

[milnerpoint]

Careful, you'll be getting the sack.

Thats why i added the "quite", cant be overly harsh on SI, i wont get my free reach around come xmas

[teodoro]

So the conclusion is teodoro, since you are a hardcore gamer, FM 12 is not for you and us hardcore gamers who want a challenge will need to wait until something is done to balance the game.

Yes, it seems to me that the conclusion is now unfortunately this.

It would be necessary for SIGAMES to clarify its position about this issue, because it seems to me that has never been officially explained with due clarity if another patch will modify the difficulty of the game and how.

I am however confident that SIGAMES will work in the right direction, as always.

It's only a matter of time.

Today however, although i have been a loyal and faithful customer , i can't buy the game until

FM2012 will be a rewarding challenge.

Cheers

[chinch]

i'm finding it slightly harder than 2011 i think.

in 2011 i took luton from the blue square and ended up winning the premiership 22 consecutive years (took a fairly long time-ended up in the late 2040s no editing or scouting cheats or ay others).... difficult bit was gettign them up there and i was on the edge of beign fired after languishing at the bottom of league 2 for a couple of seasons- but once i set up the infrastructure with the scouting/training/youth set up/stadium it was pretty easy to keep them up the top of the premiership...

in 2012 i started a save with arsenal, was fired after a season after finishing third and doing badly in the cups after promising to challenge for the title- i felt this was a bit harsh given i'd say i did challenge and obviosuly diddnt have a chance to set up the kind of stuff for the team that woulsd set them up for dominance in the next decade (not that i'm bitter!) so i started a new save with staines, had never taken on a semi- pro team before..got promoted from the bss straight away- not exactly at a stroll, but then i did massively improve the squad. look good for the playoffs in the blue square this year after just about avoiding relegation last season- so in the lower leagues i am finding it quite similar to how i did last year, which is easy enough if you put in the time- but i did find it harder with arsenal- not massively, but hard enough to not win the league in my first season and so get fired.

[egesagin]

No no, if you find the game hard. that means you are a bad tactician. However if you actually achieve things, that means that the game is too easy, and you are still a bad tactician.

See how stupid that sounds? Just because some people have figured out how to abuse the limitations of present AI technology in gaming, doesn't mean that the game is unrealistically easy. It is as realistically hard as it can be imho

[phnompenhandy]

Biggus D -superb post; terrific analysis of the inter-connected weaknesses and practical proposals for solutions.

Icy - good thought. Rather than see the results of out team-talks on screen we should wait for the motivation widget to kick in 5 mins into the 1st/2nd half, and ask the assman for feedback after the game and the guys are out of the locker room.

Have SI released a statement where they said they would make the game more difficult? This true?

If so, any news when?

SI didn't and can't say exactly that. To paraphrase from memory PaulC's spin (a post earlier in this thread?), he'll tweak the effects of morale at the extremes and make sure the effects don't last as long. As with any fix, no news of when until it's out.

[KUBI]

I think that with LLM rules and an add of personal realism this game is a very good simulator.

- No 'Player/Staff Search' (doesn't exist in real life)

-

That was in the old days, when the player search did list all well-known players. That has changed and the player search is now part of the clubs scouting knowledge. It's basically the scouting database of the club with the overall knowledge of all your staff.

[Fede_Gu]

That was in the old days, when the player search did list all well-known players. That has changed and the player search is now part of the clubs scouting knowledge. It's basically the scouting database of the club with the overall knowledge of all your staff.

Yes.

But it's the function 'Search' that doesn't exist in real life.

[x42bn6]

Yes.

But it's the function 'Search' that doesn't exist in real life.

It does - it's the collective knowledge of all of your staff. The "search" function is simply recalling that knowledge from memory.

If a scout finds 3 players, then his "Search" function compares what he knows about these 3 players against the required criteria. It's "in his mind".

[KUBI]

Yes.

But it's the function 'Search' that doesn't exist in real life.

A database without a search function? Now that's an invention.

[Fede_Gu]

You guys have in your mind a database of about 10/20/30,000 (or more) players with every attribute associated to a value from 1 to 20?

Or do you think a single person in the football world can search in his mind every italian/english/french striker who has at least acceleration of 14, an elevation of 12 and a determination of 15 with at least 5 caps in his national team?

Wow, congrats.

(Human mind or computer database it doesn't make any difference).

Anyway probably you're missing the point.

In real life you compare abilities, not numbers. I use bars instead of numbers (and graphics comparison instead of player search) because IMHO numbers are in the game ONLY because the game needs them to work.

When I see Del Piero I see a good football player (not elite anymore) with an incredible determination, a good influence, and poor speed.

I don't see 'Influence' 15, Determination '18', 'Speed '10'.

[egesagin]

Come on, people even give ratings to the opposite sex for their attraction. It's totally possible that scouting teams can create databases and assign numbers for the managers to search easily. It is a long shot but still, not too unrealistic as long as the players are scouted.

[x42bn6]

You guys have in your mind a database of about 10/20/30,000 (or more) players with every attribute associated to a value from 1 to 20?

Or do you think a single person in the football world can search in his mind every italian/english/french striker who has at least acceleration of 14, an elevation of 12 and a determination of 15 with at least 5 caps in his national team?

Wow, congrats.

(Human mind or computer database it doesn't make any difference).

Anyway probably you're missing the point.

In real life you compare abilities, not numbers. I use bars instead of numbers (and graphics comparison instead of player search) because IMHO numbers are in the game ONLY because the game needs them to work.

When I see Del Piero I see a good football player (not elite anymore) with an incredible determination, a good influence, and poor speed.

I don't see 'Influence' 15, Determination '18', 'Speed '10'.

Firstly, A single scout doesn't have a database of 10,000+ players, but they with their contacts and other scouts may well do so.

Secondly, the numbers are just abstractions of ability. In reality, the manager isn't going to say "give me a list of strikers with finishing 20" - they are going to say, "give me a list of strikers with finishing as good as van Nistelrooy at his absolute best", for example. So the numerical comparison in-game directly corresponds to an ability comparison in reality.

We indirectly compare players in the same way that we know that Ronaldo's dribbling is better than Nani's which is better than Heskey's - it just so happens that a numerical scale is one way of representing such a method.

There is an open question whether we can unbiasedly split attributes down into 20 stages, of course, but such a "database search" is actually quite realistic.

Reality: Look for all wingers who have Nani's technique and flair

In-game: Look for all wingers who have technique > 16, flair > 16 (or whatever they are)

Reality: Questioning all scouting knowledge of all scouts + agents

In-game: Player search

[KUBI]

Bayern Munich and Arsenal are using the ISB database:

http://www.isb-data.com/isb/content/pages/main.php

[Fede_Gu]

Firstly, numbers are abstractions of ability, I totally agree on this.

But in real life you have ability, not numbers. FM needs numbers, me not.

Secondly, when in real life (yes, I'm a scout but NOT a football scout) I make a comparison I have to approximate and frequently I make mistakes. Always. It's the human nature. FM, with numbers, don't.

[Fede_Gu]

@KUBI: ISB Data is, like Panini Database, a good service, but absolutely not even close to what FM ingame database offers.

And we are talking about Arsenal and Bayern, not Bath or Shrewsbury.

[jase19]

Interesting that anagain and myself made posts about not having the most success and they were ignored. seems like a lot of the people whining about how easy the game is only read what they want to. *shrug*

[KUBI]

Interesting that anagain and myself made posts about not having the most success and they were ignored. seems like a lot of the people whining about how easy the game is only read what they want to. *shrug*

I think the developers knows that this thread is gathering different kind of "to easy" complains. Those who find the game to easy in general and those who find it is to easy under specific circumstances in FM2012. I guess that a patch will not affect the overall game play, but probably make some winning and losing streaks less frequent.

[x42bn6]

Firstly, numbers are abstractions of ability, I totally agree on this.

But in real life you have ability, not numbers. FM needs numbers, me not.

That's the point! In reality, you use "ability"; in-game, you use "numbers". You cannot use "ability" in-game, but you can use "numbers".

Numbers are merely a way of representing words to describe a player's ability. It is like saying "boss, do you want a winger with the dribbling ability of Heskey, Wright-Phillips, Lennon, Nani or Messi?", which might describe 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 respectively. Then there are wingers that fall between, say, Lennon and Nani, that might be raised as an "ability" comparison that have a corresponding "number".

Reality: Ability

In-game: Numbers

Reality: Player X has a certain degree of ability

In-game: Player X has certain attributes with certain numbers

Reality: "Find me a player with ability Y to some degree"

In-game: "Find me a player with ability Y as attribute number N"

Reality: Scout consults his mind, other scouts and contacts with the ability criteria and compares against every single player returned against this criteria

Reality: Scout consults his mind, other scouts and contacts with the numerical criteria and compares against every single player returned against this criteria

Reality: Scout produces a list of players

In-game: Scout produces a list of players (the same list)

Now, is this "real"? No, of course not. However, that just showcases the problem with natural language processing. If I say "give me a list of players who could be the next Lionel Messi", this is extremely difficult to translate in-game. However, it is arguable that the absoluteness of the player search is balanced against the fact that the game cannot be vague (i.e. an outstanding player who just falls outside of one of your criteria but excels in everything else for the same price as the others).

Secondly, when in real life (yes, I'm a scout but NOT a football scout) I make a comparison I have to approximate and frequently I make mistakes. Always. It's the human nature. FM, with numbers, don't.

I've advocated that FM's fog of war is incorrect and that it is perhaps better to return incorrect attributes that are "blur" to simulate uncertainty.

So no, it's not realistic now, but I think not using player search is more unrealistic than using it - because scouts do "search a database" for players and we can make roughly accurate representations of players and translate those into numerical values.

[egesagin]

Firstly, numbers are abstractions of ability, I totally agree on this.

But in real life you have ability, not numbers. FM needs numbers, me not.

Secondly, when in real life (yes, I'm a scout but NOT a football scout) I make a comparison I have to approximate and frequently I make mistakes. Always. It's the human nature. FM, with numbers, don't.

The accuracy of those numbers should be in correlation with the scouting team's abilities. The current system is unrealistic but a numerical player database is not unrealistic. That's what I'm trying to say..