David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

i dont think the concern is steam itself, you could removed steam and replace it with anything similar and the reaction would be the same. Steam is not intrusive or resource hungry they are just being used as excuses, people dont want to be told what they have to do, that is the big problem.

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The arguments are being articulated well IMO. For you to say its the same arguments being made over and over again as if that is a bad thing is a poor dismissal - the fact that the same arguments are being made should tell you that there is a consensus of opinion that SI should take notice of. Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.

Whether the decision was taken lightly or not is moot. SI have take the decision, and here on this thread you see the reaction to the decision. In the poll that you yourself closed, you also see the reaction to the decision.

Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them. Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.

I can't believe you just wrote that. :D

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Hi

my 2 cents.

I personally have a lot of games on Steam, but this year I had my steam account hacked. This left me unable to play any game(online or offline) for a period of nearly 2 weeks, cos there was some problem with the steam support. So I gained a copy(....).

I'm not happy that I did this but I was a member of a clan and couldn't afford to miss game time, IMO steam forced me to do this, and I sure as hell wasnt paying for another copy when I always buyFM on the day of release.

On the brighter side I havent had any problems with steam since and hopefully nor will I

Are you daft enough to come on here and admit you pirated FM11??!!!!

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The arguments are being articulated well IMO. For you to say its the same arguments being made over and over again as if that is a bad thing is a poor dismissal - the fact that the same arguments are being made should tell you that there is a consensus of opinion that SI should take notice of. Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.

Whether the decision was taken lightly or not is moot. SI have take the decision, and here on this thread you see the reaction to the decision. In the poll that you yourself closed, you also see the reaction to the decision.

Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them. Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.

Whs :thup:

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I can't believe you just wrote that. :D

Your response here just adds weight to what he put, even more so with you putting that stupid smiley in.

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Having spent good money on my PC, it is only correct that I should have control over what software is running on it. I will be actioning that control by not installing steam, FM2012 and any future releases on FM that rely on unrequested 3rd party software. Having played (having bought legitimately) every version since CM(1) this is not a decision I have taken lightly, but feel it is the right one (sic)
I agree with you :)

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Neil just sent a PM sent to you, it has made my day :D

have you won your fiver already??!! :D

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i dont think the concern is steam itself, you could removed steam and replace it with anything similar and the reaction would be the same. Steam is not intrusive or resource hungry they are just being used as excuses, people dont want to be told what they have to do, that is the big problem.

You need to start reading the posts rather than making sweeping statements.

Certainly some would have reacted in the same manner whatever the choice was but lots of us have stated valid reasons why Steam is not a good choice.

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Your response here just adds weight to what he put, even more so with you putting that stupid smiley in.

He compared our release of Football Manager 2012 with Steam to an illegal war which cost countless innocent people their lives and you're having a go at me for using a smiley? I think I'm done for the day.

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Let's imagine that in 10 years time you're feeling a bit nostalgic and feel like playing your old copy of FM2012... Oh, wait.

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where did i say i did that?

I said i gained a copy? that does not say that i pirated it?

I wouldnt need to. I borrowed my brothers copy.

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just proves that you're not even reading the concerns properly

Could not agree more. Already been shown in previous posts that steam hogs memory on certain machines. SI and Sega are rapidly losing the right of expecting the consumer to have faith in their decision making.

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Are you daft enough to come on here and admit you pirated FM11??!!!!

That seems to be the case.

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Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.
He compared our release of Football Manager 2012 with Steam to an illegal war which cost countless innocent people their lives and you're having a go at me for using a smiley? I think I'm done for the day.

I wasn't referring to your dismissal of his comparison- more the bit quoted above.

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Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress

Can you turn off the automatic updates? This may seem like a stupid question however there have been patches that have caused problems (i.e. the editor issue with patch 3 in 2011) plus I prefer NOT to have the data update. Having not used steam before can you choose which updates are applied?

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I can't believe you just wrote that. :D

Well, in case you thought you were seeing things, I'll write it again.

Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.

As per BuryBlade's comment, I can't believe you wrote what you did, either :-(

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Can you turn off the automatic updates?

Yes. Right click the game in Steam, pick Properties, then go into the Updates tab.

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Can you turn off the automatic updates? This may seem like a stupid question however there have been patches that have caused problems (i.e. the editor issue with patch 3 in 2011) plus I prefer NOT to have the data update. Having not used steam before can you choose which updates are applied?

Yes but once you've chosen to update you can't go back.

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Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them.

Are you seriously suggesting in your closing paragraph that despite everything that SI have done over the past 15 or 20 years, this one decision has destroyed everything you trusted them for? It has been stated many times that the people who made this decision have an awful lot of information that we don't, and that they are not allowed to release it. They have admitted that Steam has had a bad rep, but they feel that they have shown adequate improvement in recent years to now be a viable option.

Can we try it, and see what happens? If Steam proves itself to be the disaster and invasion of privacy that so many are predicting, then I'm sure they won't be used again.

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People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! :D) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

Two seperate issues here:

1)Your decision, is a bad one.

2)'not very good anti-piracy measure', of course we will have to wait to find out.

You are asking us to wait and see if this method works, yet you are acting on the assumption that it will work, and there can be no alternatives with FM12. How can you take such an inflexible stance? What if it doesn't work? Will you not then change the method of authentification? No of course you won't, how silly you would look.

Unless it is a secret double-bluff, were you have every intention of losing the need for Steam in a future patch once you have achieved your goal of delaying piracy. ;)

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He compared our release of Football Manager 2012 with Steam to an illegal war which cost countless innocent people their lives and you're having a go at me for using a smiley? I think I'm done for the day.

I actually compared your remarks to Tony Blair's tendency to urge people to trust him. Iraq was of course the best example of that, the Bernie Ecclestone affair another, and so on. But if you want to put a different spin on that, as IMO many of the mods and staff have been doing with the arguments that oppose the activation policy, then you do that, but be prepared for others to judge you on that.

You be done for the day by all means though.

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You need to start reading the posts rather than making sweeping statements.

Certainly some would have reacted in the same manner whatever the choice was but lots of us have stated valid reasons why Steam is not a good choice.

there really isnt anytihng wrong with steam, millions upon millions of people use it everyday without an issue, there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories. The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away, the fact that someon could even compare this to the Iraq war shows how overboard the reaction has become. There was an outcry when SI first used DRM, this is just another part of that, obviously i could be wrong but we will all see come the end of the year what the sales figues are like, so far a tiny proportion of a tiny part of FMer's are dead against it, i think that will be the general trend, and i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.

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I said some people, not all people.

Is it too much to ask for you to not consistently misrepresent your opposition?

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@ SI /SEGA

When can we expect an answer to the Germany issue?

Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?

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Seriously you'd think its the end of the world here. Its not gonna change before FM12's release, so you're either gonna buy it or you're not

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@ SI /SEGA

When can we expect an answer to the Germany issue?

Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?

Just to save SI the effort I shall answer your question: Move somewhere else.

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@ SI /SEGA

When can we expect an answer to the Germany issue?

Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

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One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

so its not possible to activate it in germany? please make an official statement on this issue. normally i bought the game via gamersgate

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there really isnt anytihng wrong with steam, millions upon millions of people use it everyday without an issue

Yes and I'm one of them as I have been for the last 5ish years.

there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories.

So you are aware that some people have issues with it. Even though this is a small minority its still too many when SI/Sega can offer no support.

The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away

The issue is the choice of restriction not the restriction itself.

i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.

You're probably correct and I can only speak for myself.

SI/Sega have chosen a Steam way or no way option and that leaves me with a choice of accept it or not buy FM for the first time in 20 odd years. If I accept it I am endorsing their choice and nothing will change in the future. The only option this leaves me is missing out on FM12.

Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.

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Basically, this would have been better handled in a few ways;

1 and most important) Not relying on Steam 100%. As I said, no software is infallable, so not having an alternate option is..bizarre.

2) Announced before the features, and not before a lot of people have pre-ordered (which I think is the reason why Sega chose to announce this now and not earlier, tbh)

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Seriously you'd think its the end of the world here. Its not gonna change before FM12's release, so you're either gonna buy it or you're not

the world is going to end on the 21st december 2012 :D

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One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

But at least previously anyone in Germany could get hold of a disc and run it from that disc. One look at the forums would show you that ther is a large community of players in Germany that can now no longer player the game. Congratulations you have managed to lose all sales in a complete country.

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One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

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Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.

I'm with you here.

Basically, this would have been better handled in a few ways;

1 and most important) Not relying on Steam 100%. As I said, no software is infallable, so not having an alternate option is..bizarre.

2) Announced before the features, and not before a lot of people have pre-ordered (which I think is the reason why Sega chose to announce this now and not earlier, tbh)

Sadly I agree with you on number 2, whether it is the case or not I feel like SI are having us on a bit, same with last year too.

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so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

No, he's saying he doesn't know, it needs answering by somebody who does tbh.

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Are you seriously suggesting in your closing paragraph that despite everything that SI have done over the past 15 or 20 years, this one decision has destroyed everything you trusted them for? It has been stated many times that the people who made this decision have an awful lot of information that we don't, and that they are not allowed to release it. They have admitted that Steam has had a bad rep, but they feel that they have shown adequate improvement in recent years to now be a viable option.

Can we try it, and see what happens? If Steam proves itself to be the disaster and invasion of privacy that so many are predicting, then I'm sure they won't be used again.

I never trust anyone who tells me that they are doing something, that impacts negatively on me, for my own good.

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there really isnt anytihng wrong with steam, millions upon millions of people use it everyday without an issue, there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories. The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away, the fact that someon could even compare this to the Iraq war shows how overboard the reaction has become. There was an outcry when SI first used DRM, this is just another part of that, obviously i could be wrong but we will all see come the end of the year what the sales figues are like, so far a tiny proportion of a tiny part of FMer's are dead against it, i think that will be the general trend, and i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.

The fact that you think that is what he was doing shows you are not paying enough attention.

EDIT: and hedging your bet shows you have little confidence in this belief. ;)

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I'm afraid this thread is descending too far into personal abuse, insults and downright trolling, not to mention spamming (which posting the same thing 30 times most definitely qualifies as;))

Whether you're pro Steam activation or anti it, or indeed somewhere else entirely, keep it civil or the thread will be closed and infractions suitably awarded.

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So you are aware that some people have issues with it. Even though this is a small minority its still too many when SI/Sega can offer no support.

SI have already said they will offer advice and support when they can, like they do with the various types of graphics card issues that pop up, infact have they not advise Nvidia on an issue with FM and a version of their graphics card to come up with a solution? Make no mistake SI will do everything they can to make sure ANYONE with an issue gets help, they always do.

You're probably correct and I can only speak for myself.

SI/Sega have chosen a Steam way or no way option and that leaves me with a choice of accept it or not buy FM for the first time in 20 odd years. If I accept it I am endorsing their choice and nothing will change in the future. The only option this leaves me is missing out on FM12.

Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.

but wait you already use steam yet you will have to decide if you want to use it for FM this time around??!

This is the future for gaming, like it or not, this is way things are going with every kind of media, thanks to pirates companies have taken this step, why are people so angry with the companies trying to protect their product rather than focusing their anger on the people who have pushed this kind of decision through?

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some of my mates will not be buying fm12 they don't have internet access i feel sorry for them and other people who don't have internet access.

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so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

No I'm telling you I don't know and that all I know is that we're officially not allowed to sell the game in Germany for reasons out of our control.

Any ways around that in the past wouldn't have been officially supported or advertised by us here, we wouldn't be allowed to. I'm sure there are ways around the new system, we're not specifically trying to make it impossible for people not to be able to play the game in Germany, we're just not allowed to sell it there. I'm not sure (not that we can't I just don't know at this stage) whether we would be allowed to tell you ourselves what any ways around it are are as that could be seen in breach of the legal conditions of us not being able to sell the game in Germany.

Hopefully one of the guys from SEGA can clarify that though, as it's just not my area of expertise.

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The fact that you think that is what he was doing shows you are not paying enough attention.

EDIT: and hedging your bet shows you have little confidence in this belief. ;)

The fact it was mentioned in the same sentence is enough for me.

Time will tell on the second part, i cant be 100% confident because Marty left the time machine on the train tracks and the doc pissed off with the other one with his bit of stuff;)

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No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.

Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.

Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.

This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate

Look at that!

I think this poll is going in the right direction then.

Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/07/drugs-policy-legalisation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).

Just wanted to bump this, one of the best posts in this thread, and one of the best I have seen on this forum. Si have forgottten that it is their current customer base that they need to put most effort into.

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But at least previously anyone in Germany could get hold of a disc and run it from that disc. One look at the forums would show you that ther is a large community of players in Germany that can now no longer player the game. Congratulations you have managed to lose all sales in a complete country.

Offically they have no sales to lose & when the decision was reviewed all the data available would have shown no impact on the German market because it does not exist in statistical form.

It would be interesting to know how many people are impacted but it will always be impossible to answer.

so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

That is a grey area, for any single serviceman that lives on base they are actually residing on British soil so the legal issue does not apply but there may still be the technical issue of where the ISP they use is registered, the problem is that many of the married quarters are not within the boundries of the barracks so they are subject to German law.

That being siad the number of forces personnel & dependants based in Germany has been greatly reduce in preperation to the end of out presence there.

Also this should not turn into an anti-forces point, I only mentioned the armed forces in my first post on this subject as that is my link to living in Germany.

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SI have already said they will offer advice and support when they can, like they do with the various types of graphics card issues that pop up, infact have they not advise Nvidia on an issue with FM and a version of their graphics card to come up with a solution? Make no mistake SI will do everything they can to make sure ANYONE with an issue gets help, they always do.

I'm sure they will, you know me, I have a lot of confidence in SI and stick up for them frequently.

Fact is though they have no more control over Steam than you or me and I don't have the same confidence in Steam

but wait you already use steam yet you will have to decide if you want to use it for FM this time around??!

Yes, personally given an option I was leaning to not using Steam this year due to problems in the past.

This is the future for gaming, like it or not, this is way things are going with every kind of media, thanks to pirates companies have taken this step, why are people so angry with the companies trying to protect their product rather than focusing their anger on the people who have pushed this kind of decision through?

Again you are focusing on the pirating aspect.

I really know very little about this but a simple google search will show you that Steam isn't the answer and from reading some pieces on the internet actually using Steam could make it easier for the pirates.

Pirating is bad, no arguments there but I'm yet to be convinced that Steam is the best answer.

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I don't like the fact I have to install an operating system to play games. I don't want stupid 3rd party software on my machine :mad:

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I don't like the fact I have to install an operating system to play games. I don't want stupid 3rd party software on my machine :mad:

Straw man argument.

"I don't like the fact I have to buy a PC or a Mac to play the game, blah blah ti blah"

Using Steam to activate the game is NOT the same as the ill-fated Uniloc activation sytsem.

It forces you to have Steam actively running on your PC in order to play the game.

It forces you to connect to the internet to be able to activate your game.

It provides no more protection against piracy than having your DVD in the drive to start it.

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