Liverpool Thread 2011/12

[Emersonlfc]

liam_tomkins: The outcome of that review is yet to be determined, but for now we at least know that Kenny still is, and still wants to be #LFC manager.

[VamPook]

No he is because he has proven he is. Won countless trophies as both player and manager including one this season. Got to another final this season. Has won the premier league which the club haven't yet.

Won the Premier league.... *chortle*

I guess he also forgot squads aren't made of 12 players any more, and subs actually need to be made

[bell]

Not sure what his sources are or anything. He just runs a website from what I can tell.

[Kopite]

Negativity in here is amazing. Go on most Liverpool forums and most people want Kenny to stay on. Really don't get the negativity.

[VamPook]

Probably cause most people on Liverpool forums are idiots

[VamPook]

*cue Manchester United fan thinking of editing post*

[CaptainPlanet]

You do realise RAWK is probably the biggest punch line in the world of football? Pretty much laughed at by everyone.

[VamPook]

No! You mean that forum where they delete your posts and ban you if you dare speak a word against KING KENNY?!

Shocking

[niggle]

he's banned from RAWK if i remember correctly

[Kopite]

You do realise RAWK is probably the biggest punch line in the world of football? Pretty much laughed at by everyone.

Where did I mention RAWK?

[dudester]

Where did I mention RAWK?

Earlier on when you mentioned rawk maybe? just a guess

[dking]

Negativity in here is amazing. Go on most Liverpool forums and most people want Kenny to stay on. Really don't get the negativity.

It's our worst season since we got relegated, and you don't get the negativity? I'm just dumbfounded at certain fans tbh.

[foofighter23]

take away the name and then go look at our results in the league. 6 home wins, 14 defeats, worst season in 55 years, lowest goals in 40? for the money spent, its not acceptable no matter what excuses you throw at it. that £113m was meant to establish us as a top 4 challenging side, it failed massively due to the signings and poor tactics.

like ive said we've missed the talisman upfront we've always had, someone we could rely on and if we signed one this summer then i think kenny might well get us back fighting for top 4 but could he go on to win us the league? his current record suggests no.

i really do believe people backing kenny are letting their heart rule their head and sentimentality is getting in the way.

[Kopite]

Earlier on when you mentioned rawk maybe? just a guess

No regarding the opinions of most other fans. I check RAWK because it has huge traffic and therefore is extremely quick at getting info out ie the Kuyt story orignially being from a Dutch paper.

I would never form my opinion around what RAWK thinks. There are some forums that are really good, with the amount of members RAWK has the few good posters will be drowned out by the majority.

[Kopite]

take away the name and then go look at our results in the league. 6 home wins, 14 defeats, worst season in 55 years, lowest goals in 40? for the money spent, its not acceptable no matter what excuses you throw at it. that £113m was meant to establish us as a top 4 challenging side, it failed massively due to the signings and poor tactics.

like ive said we've missed the talisman upfront we've always had, someone we could rely on and if we signed one this summer then i think kenny might well get us back fighting for top 4 but could he go on to win us the league? his current record suggests no.

i really do believe people backing kenny are letting their heart rule their head and sentimentality is getting in the way.

Ok well why don't you look at any of the factors that happened before Kenny arrived or that occured throughout the season. We were awful when he took over, he has improved our style of play and won a trophy. Lucas got a major inury, before that he had been by far our best player and we have missed him a lot. The Suarez ban and Gerrard being out for large chunks of the season. We have hit the woodwork a ridiculous amount of times. Players missing penalties isn't Kenny's fault.

You can look at the stats all you want but they only tell half the story.

[VamPook]

In how many instances and games can you actually say the team played well?

Buying the likes of Downing to assist Carroll, but never ever playing them together. Insisting on playing Henderson, and even worse, so obviously out of position that he looks pathetic. 88th min subs... WHEN WE'RE LOSING

[Kopite]

Played well in a lot of games this season. Can't be bothered going through them all but I'd say most of the time we played alright but frustrations of not getting a win clouded over it.

Anyway you can all calm down now looks like he's going nowhere at the minute:

Kenny Dalglish waits to learn Liverpool fate

Tony Barrett Updated 41 minutes ago

Kenny Dalglish has returned to Merseyside following talks with Liverpool’s owner, Fenway Sports Group (FSG), in Boston.

The Liverpool manager travelled to Massachusetts yesterday along with Steve Clarke, his assistant, and met with John W Henry and Tom Werner, the club’s principal owners, as part of an ongoing review into Liverpool’s performance last season.

As planned, Dalglish flew back to Heathrow after the meeting had ended, while Clarke remained in Boston where he accompanied Henry and Werner to Fenway Park to watch the Boston Red Sox record a comfortable 6-1 win over the Seattle Mariners.

Contrary to speculation that surfaced following the summit, Dalglish did not resign and nor was he sacked with the outcome of the talks being a mundane acceptance from all parties that the process of reviewing the season will continue.

Henry and Werner are seeking an explanation for Liverpool’s shortcomings during a disappointing campaign which culminated with them finishing in eighth place in the Premier League. The duo are also looking to Dalglish and Clarke to provide a vision of how they will revitalise the club’s fortunes.

Having already dismissed Damien Comolli from his role as director of football and a number of other senior executives, FSG have demonstrated that they will not shirk at making big decisions but they will know that removing Dalglish, a hugely popular figure amongst Liverpool’s support, would be another matter entirely.

For his part, Dalglish continues to plan for the future by scouting and targeting the players who he believes will help spark the kind of improvement that Liverpool’s owners are looking for. But until the review is concluded it is impossible to say with any great certainty that Dalglish will be in a position to put those plans into practice.

[foofighter23]

Ok well why don't you look at any of the factors that happened before Kenny arrived or that occured throughout the season. We were awful when he took over, he has improved our style of play and won a trophy. Lucas got a major inury, before that he had been by far our best player and we have missed him a lot. The Suarez ban and Gerrard being out for large chunks of the season. We have hit the woodwork a ridiculous amount of times. Players missing penalties isn't Kenny's fault.

You can look at the stats all you want but they only tell half the story.

our form still wasnt that great with lucas playing and kenny had the opportunity to rectify it in january. he even said he had money if he wanted it but he just didnt want to sign anyone at the time, and gerrard and suarez being out should have been covered with the other £90m we spent. man u had the worst injury list all season yet they came within a whisker of winning it. theyre all just excuses.

we massively underachieved for the money spent and i cant see us going out and spending another £100m anytime soon.

[Emersonlfc]

Ok well why don't you look at any of the factors that happened before Kenny arrived or that occured throughout the season. We were awful when he took over, he has improved our style of play and won a trophy. Lucas got a major inury, before that he had been by far our best player and we have missed him a lot. The Suarez ban and Gerrard being out for large chunks of the season. We have hit the woodwork a ridiculous amount of times. Players missing penalties isn't Kenny's fault.

You can look at the stats all you want but they only tell half the story.

Hate it when people use Lucas getting injuried as an excuse for our season going downhill. Theres a major factor your forgetting, the fact Kenny had the chance to bring someone in during the transfer window to counter the loss and the fact he thought we didn't still baffles me.

[paperclips]

We over paid for a lot of players so saying we spend £100mill is not really that fair IMO.

Spent a lot of money but the money we did spent was not well spent.

[jep]

I think now Kenny and Clarke have given their excuses version of events from this past season then FSG will now have all of the evidence they need to make a judgement on this shambles of a season. I think they will take a bit of time now to digest it all and then hopefully make the right decision in the next couple of days.

[foofighter23]

We over paid for a lot of players so saying we spend £100mill is not really that fair IMO.

Spent a lot of money but the money we did spent was not well spent.

i dont quite understand what your saying :confused: cos we wasted £100m it not fair to say that we did spent it because we should be able to knock imaginary millions off the prices we spend the money on?

and is it spend or spent?:confused:? i dont know anymore :''''(

[paperclips]

I did not make my point very well, if at all

[Daaaaave]

Rafa lost the dressing room for a reason, and a lot of the players are still there.

get rid of those players.

[CaptainPlanet]

I agree. Would rather have Rafa and no Gerrard/Carragher than lose out on him as a manager because they would throw their toys out of their prams.

[martplfc1]

Agree with Dave. I'd quite happily offload Gerrard and Carragher, both past it in my opinion, Carragher WAAAAY past it. We've already seen where sentiment gets us, I don't care if they're LFC through and through, if their egos are a detriment to the club on the pitch, that's all that matters.

Anyway, I think it will be academic, can see Kenny being in charge for another year.

[Daaaaave]

I understand that this isn't "the liverpool way" and so may not be well received here, but there should be a factor of "what have you done for me lately?" applied to players as well as staff. it's widely acknowledged that carra/gerrard engineered rafa's exit and also requested a good english bloke like roy to take over. are we better off 2 years on? have carra and gerrard made such magnificent contributions on the field that it justifies poisoning the boot room? are they players in their prime with a grand future ahead of them? is their inclusion in the xi generally holding back younger, hungrier players from developing? regardless of whether it would affect rafa coming back, it's time to move on.

[Tony7]

Ok well why don't you look at any of the factors that happened before Kenny arrived or that occured throughout the season. We were awful when he took over, he has improved our style of play and won a trophy. Lucas got a major inury, before that he had been by far our best player and we have missed him a lot. The Suarez ban and Gerrard being out for large chunks of the season. We have hit the woodwork a ridiculous amount of times. Players missing penalties isn't Kenny's fault.

You can look at the stats all you want but they only tell half the story.

Dalglish took over last January and we played great attacking football which saw us finish 6th 3 points behind Spurs. Liverpool this season have been negative in a lot of games and by that I mean we sit too deep, leave a striker isolated on his own up front. Players that we bought were no better than Shelvey, Maxi.

Liverpool missed a penalty so what there are 90 minutes in a game of football and we didn't do enough to win the game in most of them game. Liverpool failed to score in 11 games, scored more than one goal in 9 game.

Liverpool played Swansea, Fulham, Wigan, Sunderland, Stoke home and away thats 10 games and scored a total of 3 goals and with the exception of Sunderland first half, Wigan first 20 mins and Fulham they were awful in them games and didn't deserve to win the games. Back to back wins in the league only times this season but back to back wins was the best sequence they could manage.

[CaptainPlanet]

Looked like those Skrtel rumours were true-ish going by what his agent has said.

"You cannot say Liverpool won't play in the Champions League," Csonto told The Independent. "It is a big club and because they haven't made it this year doesn't mean they would not next.

"There are expectations on both sides, though.

"Some changes have been made at the club and the player wants to know what the aims and ambitions are.

"We want to discuss with Liverpool what they want and, of course, we will discuss the issue of Martin's new contract."

[foofighter23]

wouldnt be doing his job properly if he didnt pipe up now though would he

dont think he's going anywhere unless man city come in with the rumoured bid.

[DeafParrot]

So what positions do we need this summer? Or is it just a case of listing 11 positions and improving the lot?

Personally I think we must have another central midfielder (defensive minded), a winger and a striker for starters. Secondary to that I'd like to see us addressing left back (Enrique doesn't look like a long term answer, but I'd like to see him stay around battling with someone else) a better attacking midfielder than we currently have available when Gerrard is crocked, and for Reina to jump in a time machine and go back three years, to when he used to save shots.

Easy.

Players to go... well, Aurelio and Maxi seem to be definitely off. Kuyt too, especially after his interview. I hope Adam clears off and am not really arsed if Bellamy stays or goes, as he'll be a bit part player next season even moreso than this. Cole will find somewhere, as will Pacheco.

I wish Aquilani would stay, but it won't happen. Would like Doni to stick around too, he's been fairly solid when he's played so far. Decent backup.

Of the younger players, I think Danny Wilson might be offloaded, and Flanagan should probably be loaned out next season at least.

[Select_screen_name:]

Left wing, right wing, central midfielder and striker. And thats before anyone leaves.

[CaptainPlanet]

A lot of our better "never going to make it youngsters" are out of contract in the summer. Sterling, Eccleston, Coady, Robinson, Wisdom.

Aurelio - £0m

Doni - £1m

Cole - £2m

Adam - £5m

Maxi - £2m

Kuyt - £5m

Aqua - £7m

Plus £20m

Yeah I'd say that's about right. £40m for a backup leftback, 1st team creative midfielder, two right wingers (1 first team, 1 backup), a goal scoring 1st team striker.

Backup Leftback - £2.5m

Backup Right Wing - £2.5m

Creative Mid - £10m

Right Winger - £10m

Goalscoring striker - £15m

At those prices, it actually makes sense to try and keep Maxi and Aquilani.

Still my assessment of what's needed in the summer.

[Insipidus]

Sterlings not going to make it?

[CaptainPlanet]

No news on him signing a contract thusfar :/

[Select_screen_name:]

Don't need a back up left back. Johnson can switch there, with Kelly coming it at right back. Good enough.

[PoolFan]

Still my assessment of what's needed in the summer.

We are not going to get 12 million for Kuyt, Adam and Cole. Kuyt/Cole are on massive wages which means they will be offloaded for next to nothing if they are sold. I can see Adam staying also, i'd also keep Maxi and Aqua if their wages aren't silly.

[Daaaaave]

can we bring back insua, please?

[foofighter23]

Don't need a back up left back. Johnson can switch there, with Kelly coming it at right back. Good enough.

so we're expecting johnson to play 50+ games next season after going to the euros:p? nah i think a new left back is a decent shout, enriques deservedly been getting dropped lately so a decent enough back up is needed unles kennys happy to play agger there a lot again.

we need a player to challenge lucas, a cm to step straight in to allow gerrard to play AM too, 2 wingers and a world class finisher and like ssn said thats before anyone leaves.

evryone sees to see eye to eye on this, lets see what really happens.

[PoolFan]

so we're expecting johnson to play 50+ games next season after going to the euros:p? nah i think a new left back is a decent shout, enriques deservedly been getting dropped lately so a decent enough back up is needed unles kennys happy to play agger there a lot again.

we need a player to challenge lucas, a cm to step straight in to allow gerrard to play AM too, 2 wingers and a world class finisher and like ssn said thats before anyone leaves.

evryone sees to see eye to eye on this, lets see what really happens.

Anyone know how far away Robinson is from the first team or how he has done this season?

[Kopite]

get rid of those players.

Finally agree with you on something!

[Insipidus]

probably not a lot. i wouldnt be surprised if we start next season with largely the same first team, with perhaps a new winger added in.

[foofighter23]

Anyone know how far away Robinson is from the first team or how he has done this season?

i only saw him a couple of times but he didnt look as far along as flannigan (though tbf he didnt make the howlers flanno has) so i wouldnt hold out much hope just yet.

[DeafParrot]

To me he looked quite a bit better than Flanagan :/

[Divinity]

1. Jones <-- useful as third choice, can possibly step up to second. Think he was wrongly judged by Hodgson's reign.

2. Johnson

3. Enrique <-- needs to step up next season to avoid becoming a repeat of Riise's last season.

5. Agger

6. Aurelio <-- releasing

7. Suarez

8. Gerrard <-- step back to more of a squad player, injuries etc affecting his reliability.

9. Carroll

11. Maxi <-- let him go to Argentina. Useful player but now getting on.

14. Henderson

16. Coates

18. Kuyt <-- let him go elsewhere. Was always too limited, couldn't beat his man, and "works hard" not good enough for a striker or wide man.

19. Downing <-- Get rid. Just not good enough, limited ambition on the pitch, and doesn't demonstrate enough to be useful.

20. Spearing <-- Sell. Not good enough to even be a backup.

21. Lucas

22. D Wilson <-- Needs football. Not seen him this season, but he's at either demonstrate ability or sell stage.

23. Carragher <-- Retire/Sell. Toxic, and substandard.

25. Reina

26. Adam <-- Could step up under Rafa. Squad player at best though.

30. Suso <-- Must start getting blooded in the first team

31. Sterling <-- ""

32. Doni <-- Sell/Release. Wages too expensive, taking up a place that could be used for development. Don't need a keeper to challenge our number one.

33. Shelvey

34. Kelly

35. Coady <-- Would have been a good season for him to step into Lucas' shoes occasionally. Perhaps next time around.

36. Eccleston <-- Sell

37. Skrtel

38. Flanagan <-- Needs more football. Loan.

39. Bellamy <-- Sell/Release. Too bit-part.

42. Gulacsi <-- If he's going to be good enough, get him involved, either as 2nd keeper or 3rd. 4th in the pecking order is pointless for a young GK.

47. Wisdom <-- Loan.

49. Robinson <-- Start getting more involved in the first team

- Amoo <-- Sell

- Aquilani <-- Keep if we can, find a buyer if we can't. Protracted loans getting absurd.

- J Cole <-- Sell.

- Darby <-- Sell.

- Pacheco <-- Sell, loan this year was pointless for 11 sub appearances and 0 starts.

[LRJ]

Yeah from what I've seen of Robinson he's looked better than Flanagan.

[Jason the Yank]

It's not just good scouting, which is an art by itself. If scouting and finding talent was so easy why didn't Newcastle sign these players before. I think way too much is being made of Newcastles scouting system, lets be honest here they took a gamble and it paid off. There was no guarantee that the players they signed would adapt or work in the premiership. There are so many examples of players who should make it but never quite reach the level you would have expected.

Back to moneyball though, moneyball is finding value in something that is undervalued. For example goalkeepers are vastly undervalued in professional footballers, compare the number of keepers who have been sold for more than 10/15 million to the number of strikers. Moneyball when used in combination with something like sabremetrics can be a very good way to find the very best value in something you are looking for.

Moneyball is also about seeing that the commonly accepted metrics are flawed.

In baseball, for example, a lot of attention was placed on batting average (hits per at bats; an "at bat" doesn't include sacrificing yourself, hit by pitch, or walks), whilst being able to draw a walk was ignored. The sabremetricians and Moneyball proponents argued and showed that on-base percentage (which includes all those things) was a much better metric for determining value. Because as long as a player reaches first base, does it really matter if that's via a hit or a walk?

The problem in football, of course, is it doesn't have the array of available statistics that baseball does (mainly because football is a flowing game, whilst baseball is a series of static events. Something like cricket would be much easier to develop sabremetrics around)

Moneyball also has as a principle that scouts' analysis is influenced by subjective factors. A player looks funny when he runs, so the scouts discount him, when he may actually be more productive than the player who "has a beautiful swing" or a "cultured foot." (for example, a midfielder may have a beautiful passing ability, but what good is it if it always lands 4 yards ahead of his target?) Messi is listed as 5'7"/1.69m tall; I'd bet you a number of English scouts would have said he wasn't worth buying because he's too small. The whole "Could he do it on a rainy Tuesday night in Stoke?" has become a cliche, but it's the sort of troglodyte thinking common in many areas of English football.

[VamPook]

Noooooooooooooooo, still nothing?!

[PoolFan]

The problem in football, of course, is it doesn't have the array of available statistics that baseball does (mainly because football is a flowing game, whilst baseball is a series of static events. Something like cricket would be much easier to develop sabremetrics around)

That is changing though with clubs using a host of devices to track performances in a match (Opta stats etc). No system is ever going to be perfect and there will always be a human element to players and evaluating them. It's certainly a interesting topic though.

[Jason the Yank]

That is changing though with clubs using a host of devices to track performances in a match (Opta stats etc). No system is ever going to be perfect and there will always be a human element to players and evaluating them. It's certainly a interesting topic though.

True, but with football you have to in large part invent the statistics. Many baseball stats like walks and hits had already been around for 120, 130 years. Just needed to be rearranged in a way that better reflected what was actually happening in a game (like on-base percentage instead of batting average, or strikeouts per 9 innings). And of course in baseball it helps that every team is playing 162 games, so you can gather a large sample size much faster than you can in football.

For example, one of the articles I read about Commoli was talking about things like "final third entries." Is that actually an accurate metric for evaluating a player's performance? The unsatisfying answer is that we won't know until we track such things for a number of years.

In a way, baseball is kind of moving on, or modifying the Moneyball approach. Because everyone uses some form of statistical analysis now, you have Billy Beane saying the A's are basically down to buying lottery tickets on unknown quantities like Yoenis Cespedes. Or you have a team like the Tampa Bay Rays that's really gone full bore into player development (especially their starting pitchers) while retaining some of the sabremetric ethos (like how they never designate a "closer" to pitch the 9th inning of close games; the "save" is a prime example of how the wrong statistics can lead to massively overvalue or wrongly using your players. Your best relief pitcher should come in if you're in the 6th inning with the bases loaded and 1 out, not kept in reserve until the 9th inning when you may end up losing the game in that 6th inning situation. But because we have saves and closers, managers (and more to the point, agents) get locked into "Well, I can't use my best pitcher in this situation, because it's not his designated role")