arsenal fan 123

New Idea - Scrap Fixed PA

229 posts in this topic

Hi guys,

I know this could be thrown into the "what do you want to see in FM11" thread, but i wanted to start a new one to focus solely on this idea.

I've been doing a bit of thinking and I believe currently, FM really limits a lot of the player growth by putting a fixed PA on everyone who is fairly well established and has passed their youth years.

This takes in no consideration for late bloomers though and will never allow an average player to one day become world class unless he sets the world alight before he hits his 20's.

The best case of a average player turning into a world class player would no doubt be Didier Drogba. An average player (if not even under average) during his time before Marseille. Even then, and when he first joined Chelsea, he was possibly just a 'good' player at best. But his coming to form in his third season really shot him up and his name was thrown around as one of the best strikers in the world. Once again this season he has done the same. But if we were playing an early version of FM/CM, before he had established himself at Marseille or moved to Chelsea, he would be, no doubt, a crap footballer to have in your team. I know this for a fact, i tried to recreate the Chelsea 2006/07 squad back in CM3 and Drogba was rubbish. Which is fine, as it was a true representation of how he was playing at the time, but in all my 6 seasons in that game he never got better. He wasnt even good enough to score more than 10 goals in all competitions for Chelsea. Thats fair enough as well, as at the time there was no indication that Drogba would be any good anyway. But they never left the chance of 'what if'...

With a fixed PA, there was no way he could get better stats, even though he was actually rapidly improving IRL. His great season for Marseille brought the interest of Chelsea. In the game, yes, if a player has a exceptional season he does attract interest of higher/similar clubs to the one he is in. What usually doesn't change though is his stats and many a times the player will move, not be able to perform the same way in this new team and will rarely get a game, drop down into the reserves and be sold at a cut price 1/2 seasons later.

So i began to think of how FM could fix this. How could FM reward you for creating a tactic that would get the best out of your average striker, allowing him to score those 20+ goals that season and actually seeing his stats improve past what their 'limit' was.

I thought about scrapping that fixed PA's and just sticking with the -10, -9, -8 etc. Although that would lead to more of a range of stats, and say a player turning world class in one game and average in another, it would still limit them as to how high their stats could go.


I came up with a potential idea. It's a bit tricky to explain i guess, but it has a simple basis to it. Reward the player by increasing his PA for achieving a number of tasks. If the player becomes the top goalscorer of his league, increase his PA. The amount it would be increased would depend on how many goals he has scored and the league he is playing in. Reward them the same if they achieve a high amount of assists. Same for passing completion, shooting accuracy etc. It doesnt even have to be a general increase in their PA, it could just be raising the players potential passing ability by 1 or 2 points for coming in the top 5 passing completions in the league at the end of the season. Same for their finishing if they achieve similar in shooting accuracy.

If a player wins player of the month, increase his general PA by 1 point. Nothing major, just little things here and there. Player of the season could obviously see something slightly higher, say 5 points. Top goalscorer of the season would be something similar. This could then allow you to keep improving your players, even past what their original PA's were. The only thing sort of preventing this is the rule that you wont see major growth in players generally after the age of 23. That should be completely scrapped too! If a player suddenly becomes the top goalscorer in the world, breaking records and whatnot, why should we not see rapid growth in his stats, even if he is say 27 years old? I would definitely love to see stats being raised by 2, 3 even 4 points in these cases.

Obviously, it wouldn't happen to players who are already in the world class stage at the moment. These player would only receive minor boosts here and there, my idea is mainly for breaking that mould of having an average player and turning him into a superstar. It would provide so much more variety in the teams people would be fielding too and increase the realism the game offers. No more would we be discarding all the average players we've had at the club once we break into the top 4. It will be those average players who got us there, who have now improved as a result, forming the core of the team and improving as well.

It's hard to know if i explained that correctly. Throw your opinions at me guys. Sorry if its a long read, but i wanted to make sure i got it all out and explained it well enough :)

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I agree completely and Drogba is the perfect example to use. If I was in charge of the data and had to give him a potential ability ten years ago he wouldn't have got over 100!

I love the idea of ranges instead of a fixed number, with certain achievements adding on points, regardless of the range.

There is nothing more frustrating than being a lower league team, and having some great young players doing really well and getting you promoted, but you know in the back of your mind they are not cut out for the big league because of their fixed potential. If your young star picks up top goalscorer in League 2, and the same in League 1, why does he not have a chance to develop with the team, instead of being at a fixed potential of decent championship player?

The argument against is often the same - everyone has a fixed potential in real life. While this is true, it is impossible to predict, so the game needs to be flexible. This has been proved by looking at Drogba's PA over the last 10 editions of the game. There is a huge variation, proving that the current method is flawed. The same can be said for almost every other player too.

PA should be set as a range, with bonus points added for great performances, good training, good luck etc.

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[quote]I thought about scrapping that fixed PA's and just sticking with the -10, -9, -8 etc.[/quote]

This bit. Brilliantly simple. I champion this idea :thup:

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The fact remains though that Drogba has a fixed potential in RL, he just hasn't fulfilled it until the last few years.


[quote]There is nothing more frustrating than being a lower league team, and having some great young players doing really well and getting you promoted, but you know in the back of your mind they are not cut out for the big league because of their fixed potential. If your young star picks up top goalscorer in League 2, and the same in League 1, why does he not have a chance to develop with the team, instead of being at a fixed potential of decent championship player?[/quote]

There are hundreds/thousands of examples over the years of players not cutting it at higher levels and dropping back to a division where they excel. Very few top goalscorers in the lower leagues have ever gone on to be a success in the top divisions.


I probably need to also point out as arsenal seems confused, when a player has a negative PA in the database he doesn't get a range in the game. A fixed PA is selected from a range when the save is created.

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Old idea, not new...

(My long posts are hanging around somewhere)

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Cougar, you say "The fact remains though that Drogba has a fixed potential in RL, he just hasn't fulfilled it until the last few years."

In real life this is true, but it has been inaccurately portrayed in the game. His PA has varied about 60 points over the last 7-8 editions, proving this does not work.

"There are hundreds/thousands of examples over the years of players not cutting it at higher levels and dropping back to a division where they excel. Very few top goalscorers in the lower leagues have ever gone on to be a success in the top divisions."

Of course there is, and I knew as I was typing that this wasn't a great example, but it seems crazy that a great young goalscorer who is producing the goods in every game can't make it in the better leagues just because his potential has been fixed at 100. His potential should be fixed at -6, with additional points being given with a great training schedule, great manager, good facilities, and most importantly, good personal achievements, ie golden boot in his division, first international cap etc

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[quote name='rjo333']Cougar, you say "The fact remains though that Drogba has a fixed potential in RL, he just hasn't fulfilled it until the last few years."

In real life this is true, but it has been inaccurately portrayed in the game. His PA has varied about 60 points over the last 7-8 editions, proving this does not work. [/quote]

Without having a time machine its impossible to pick out the players that are going to improve with age and to be fair I would say there were few if any complaints about his PA in old versions.


[quote]"There are hundreds/thousands of examples over the years of players not cutting it at higher levels and dropping back to a division where they excel. Very few top goalscorers in the lower leagues have ever gone on to be a success in the top divisions."

Of course there is, and I knew as I was typing that this wasn't a great example, but it seems crazy that a great young goalscorer who is producing the goods in every game can't make it in the better leagues just because his potential has been fixed at 100. His potential should be fixed at -6, with additional points being given with a great training schedule, great manager, good facilities, and most importantly, good personal achievements, ie golden boot in his division, first international cap etc[/QUOTE]


As I said in my previous post potentials aren't "fixed" at negative numbers.

A lot of users seem to base too much emphasis on CA/PA rather than just playing the game and focusing on attributes & performances.

My advice would be ignore CA/PA and just play the game the way it was intended. Your young player with 100PA will gradually fall out of favour as you climb divisions and drift away from the first team rather than you dropping him instantly because he has 100PA.


EDIT
That said I would agree the way CA develops could probably be improved to include "late bloomers" amongst others. In fact I thought I had read this had been done for this version when it was released but have seen nothing about it since.

Adding a small amount of PA for certain events could also be a good addition as long as they weren't user driven events that could be manipulated.

In general though I would like to see an adjustment in the rate of CA improvement so that very few players ever reach there in game PA.

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[quote name='rjo333']

i
Of course there is, and I knew as I was typing that this wasn't a great example, but it seems crazy that a great young goalscorer who is producing the goods in every game can't make it in the better leagues just because his potential has been fixed at 100. His potential should be fixed at -6, with additional points being given with a great training schedule, great manager, good facilities, and most importantly, good personal achievements, ie golden boot in his division, first international cap etc[/QUOTE]


Well, isn't this what happens with CA. Most players, with game time, mentoring etc will increase CA. They will increase the better you go about it. It is capped at a certain value. Which IMO is a fine way of doing it. Remember, in theory you should never see these numbers.

Re Drogba - this is a data error. He should have had 180+ in the beginning.

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[QUOTE]Reward the player by increasing his PA for achieving a number of tasks.[/QUOTE]

No, no, no no no!! Its a football management game, not some kind of rpg where you "level up" your players. Naturally FM gets things wrong from time to time, but, unless you use an external editor, then you wont know a player's PA/CA, so, to a certain extent, its irrelevant. You simply cannot predict how the future will pan out, hence the use of "random" or "-" PA values...

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There's also regens who aren't given a subjective PA at the start - the game doesn't allow them to be a late bloomer. It's not just the likes of Drogba.

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I would love SI to come out and say THIS IS HOW IT IS AND THIS IS WHY.

Silense would fall upon you all!


Chris Eagles has something like CA/PA of around 142, yet he played in my CL qualifying campaign with Newcastle playing 30 EPL games and getting 8.47 average. In your world you'd have sold him or not given him a look.


I agree with what has been said: play the game the way it was intended and you'll not have issues. Delve in too deep and you can get stuck on silly little details which take away from YOUR experience, at your expense, whilst everyone else is having a ball.

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This "new" idea has been discussed to death already!

As a player gets better, whether early in his career or a late bloomer, his CA increases, because it is CA that determines how good a player is, PA is just the maximum limit.

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[quote name='MelbVictory']Exactly - play the game. Forget the editors and hidden numbers.[/QUOTE]

Correct. PA does EXACTLY what it's supposed to, we only know about it because of editing tools.

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I don't like this idea. I would prefer it if many players had higher PA but much fewer players would reach their PA's. At the moment if a player doesn't get seriously injured and gets a reasonable amount of playing time when he is younger, there is a big chance he will come very close to reaching his PA. If less players actually come very close to their PA, we could raise the PA's of the original players in the db which would give us much more variety.

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The problem is though that your staff don't give an accurate account of your players ability. Yet, the other teams seem to be able to pin-point your best players and try to sign them or buy them.

That is the only way I know that my players are any good. And to be honest about it, in 25 seasons as Barcelona manager I have not had one youth prospect come through my youth academy with a PA of over 170. In fact the highest I believe was the 150 mark.

That simply doesn't happen in real life.

I do sign the young Brazil players, and from the Portugese leagues, and other leagues that are relatively low profile. I sign the players with a PA above 175 that are 15, 16 years of age, have a very low reputation.

Yet I only have them 6 months in my youth squad, the assistant and coaches are begging me to sell him, I have Man United, Chelsea, Man City, Inter, Ac Milan, etc. all trying to buy the player. And yet at every team meeting my staff are saying the 15/16 year old isn't good enough and to sell him on?


The whole point is, there's a whole lot more wrong with the game than the PA system of rating players.

I expect better feedback, a way to sign a player that is signed as a backup or hot prospect to be recognised by the staff, the ability to automatically sign the player to the "reserve" "u19" or "youth squad" etc. The staff to acknowledge his ability and when they are giving a rating of 7.8 over a season in the youth team the staff recognises this and doesn't beg you to sell your best and brightest star.

Yet when the new youth players are rolled out you get a message "MR. X is the brightest player to come out of the academy" then I check his PA, and it's a mere 130.

Why don't the staff say "He's the best but he's only a reserve player or would do well in the second division" or something.


My point is the staff you have can't recognise the players ability and they work with them day in day out in training and watching them in matches. Yet, Man City who in 6 months are bidding 7.5m plus 25% of the next transfer fee for the player. How can their staff recognise him as a good player and mine can't?

And I do have the best staff in the game, all 6/7 stars for coaching in training.

(And yes I am checking the PA of players because I want to see when or if my Barcelona team will ever produce a young player with any talent. It's been 25 seasons and nothing!)

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[quote name='Kenco']This "new" idea has been discussed to death already!

As a player gets better, whether early in his career or a late bloomer, his CA increases, because it is CA that determines how good a player is, PA is just the maximum limit.[/QUOTE]

things not going like this. when a player reacher maximum of his PA he can never improve even he breaks all of the records.

so i am aggre with these rewards and records must effect players

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Personally I like the PA concept as it is and can't see any reason whatsoever to scrap or alter it.

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The problem with all these arguements are that the quoted players obviously had the potential from the beginning, they just didnt fulfil it until late in their career. Its really just their CA changing.

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I understand what the theory presented means and it's intentions but the game works asis and has always worked this way.

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Another real life example of a late bloomer is Ian Wright.

I do believe there could be more fluidity in the way players improve, regardless of their age, and that should be by coaching. If you manage to get a lower league club into a higher league you are able to attract better quality coaches so surely a good teacher can further develop their students?

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I also like the idea of scrapping the PA! There are numerous examples when players in real life become late bloomers! I just hope that SI takes a serious view on this matter. With the right coach and team, a player could become a legend! :D

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Surely this is only a problem if you're playing the older games? By the time a "late bloomer" has exceeded the original PA he was given chances are a new FM has been released. And if you're still playing the old one, just use the editor to alter his PA accordingly?

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[quote name='Blanchflower1']I also like the idea of scrapping the PA! There are numerous examples when players in real life become late bloomers! I just hope that SI takes a serious view on this matter. With the right coach and team, a player could become a legend! :D[/QUOTE]

Again, this is not about PA, it's about his CA improving later in his career. The potential was always there, he just took a while to fulfil it.

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Personally, i think the poster of this thread is onto something. I, and many, many others out there will not buy a player over the age of 24, so the OP's idea would no doubt add an unbelievable amount of realism to the game. The number of saves i've had where agbonlahor wins top scorer in the league and even the golden boot would suggest that his attributes should reflect his performances. So it means that when you think about signing europes top marksman, your immediately put off by the fact that his attributes are not as good as others out there, and also the realization that he will never get better. It also means that almost never in this game will you be scouring the world for players around the age of 27 who have started to play out of their skin, e.g Arshavin, Luca Toni (in real life). It completely restricts your gameplay.
I'm an addict of this game and i'm not really complaining, however if realism is the goal here, then i'd take the threadstarter's idea into considerstion.

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I've made this suggestion before: Use two systems.

First, start with "natural talent"/"expected potential." This would be the current PA system, though using only the random numbers (-10, -9, etc.) and not a fixed number. This determines player growth up to the age of 24 or so.

Second, use a player's performance to adjust PA after the age of 24. Meaning, if a player maxes out their PA at 120 or so they could see an increase in their PA based on how well they perform relative to the league they're in. I think a PA adjustment of up to 5 points a year would be sufficient:

Example:a player with a current/max PA of 120 averages a 7.3 for the season. His PA is then raised a few points for the next season. If he performs well again, his CA will increase to match the PA increase, and he may be rewarded with another small boost to PA (relative to the quality of the league he plays in, so you won't be seeing any players reach 200PA on a League 6 squad or anything.) After two years (and possibly a +10 point increase in CA/PA) the player will likely attract the interest of another team from a better league. The player makes the move, but only averages a 6.8. His performance doesn't merit any increase to his PA, and his CA may actually decrease slightly as a result.

To me, this addresses the fundamental flaw of the current system- even though people will say "Drogba always had that level of ability," the simple fact is that FM cannot compensate for our inability to accurately guess what a player's true potential may be...so we have to make do with players suddenly gaining 20 or 30 points to their CA/PA with each year's release. With this system, you could theoretically take a player from a pub team with an initial PA of 100 and, after the course of ten successful years, end up with a player with 150PA. Of course, this would only happen so long as the player performs well in better and better leagues. It would be uncommon to see such an incredible increase over a player's career, but it should still be possible. I believe this would be the best way to make the PA system more "realistic."

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I think that you are all missing the point of the game. It is to be as realistic as possible. But the game has its limits thats the nature of games. It would be too easy to find a tactic that works stick a youth striker up front and get him to tap the ball in all the time. This would improve the player beyond anything he would normally become. if the way you are talking about raising the players PA was to happen it would be again too easy to make superstars. The game needs the PA as a back ground to tell it the potential of the player. If i buy a 15 year old i have no idea how good he will be. Unless i cheat and look in the editor i will never know how good this player can get all i can go on is the coaches and the how he plays.

If you have a problem with PA dont look for it and it will not ruin your game. Managers in real life pick up players all the time not knowing how they will turn out so why would it be any different in the game.

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The thing is...

PA isn't a mere figure that tells us if Player X is a potential Top Star or will be lucky to get a couple of run-ins in Premier League before disappearing in lower leagues.


PA sort of represent the highest the player's attributes can reach, under the best possible circumstances.


So to me the issue isn't really about, say, Drogba or Luca Toni having low PA 10 years ago compared to the real-life level they later reached.

The issue is: why can't my 130CA/PA midfielder improve further, despite having been a vital part of my team, with average rating over 7.00 and plenty of goals and assists?

It doesn't mean any Average Joe who's playing ok for your club can suddenly turn into the new Gerrard or Messi, but it's rather silly seeing Top Clubs fighting to sign a relatively disappointing player for £20M while your players keep on getting ignored just because they hit the glass ceiling of their modest PA.


I think it'd be interesting revamping the dynamics between CA/PA and attributes rise/drop.

Sure a guy who's 130/130 won't ever become a "full 18 player", but there is no reason he shouldn't get "attention", recognition and possible a rise in PA-attributes according to his performances.


See, with the current system I'd rather sign a mediocre keeper who's said to be a future star [eg 90 CA/150 PA] than a competent keeper who won't get any better [eg 115 CA 120 PA]

The latter would be a better choice, while the former will sure garner more interest AND require a lot more work to become useful.

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[quote name='RBKalle']


See, with the current system I'd rather sign a mediocre keeper who's said to be a future star [eg 90 CA/150 PA] than a competent keeper who won't get any better [eg 115 CA 120 PA]



Exactly! This sort of problem is rife in the game. More or less restricting the gamer to who he will buy

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[url]http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=5183468&postcount=13[/url]

(And scroll down)

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I have a better idea.

Get rid of the fixed I agree, however, get rid of the massive ranges in the -9, -10 etc. Its stupid how wilshere is world class on one save and below average in another save.

What should happen is if you are a -10 player everyone has the potential to be a 200 but is based on how he plays and how often is played and how well hes trained etc. Even being at the wrong team can kill your abilities to improve so not many would reach 200 if any.

Really though the ranges are annoying

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One thing to note is late bloomers are an exception to a rule in a sense, they're not a regular occurance, and also they'd be quite frustrating in the game really. To have a player reach a cieling and never improve, and then think "well this player wont get any better" sell him and then see him turn into a marvel.

It's actually something that's happened to me once to an extent, I had a player that just didnt improve, he was like 23, and I saw no future for him so I sold him, turned out he improved loads at his new club, getting a constant time in the first team, at a top flight (scottish at least) club, even though their coaching and facilities were awful compared to mine.

So some can "bloom" later than 21 but it's rare.

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[quote name='RBKalle']

The issue is: why can't my 130CA/PA midfielder improve further, despite having been a vital part of my team, with average rating over 7.00 and plenty of goals and assists?

[/QUOTE]

How is that an issue?

He has reached the limit of his abilities, simple as that. This happens everyday in the real world.

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Most teams that get promoted sell all the lads that got them the promotion and buy in better players.

Hull would be a recent example.

PA is an attempt by the game to estimate how a player will turn out. Most lads with PA in FM are not exactly unknowns. Guys like Lukaku are out there doing incredible things at a very young age, which suggests they will turn out to be amazing. Many don't, and have their PA reduced. For every Drogba who has a low PA at the start of the game, there's one with ludicrously high PA who turns out to be a damp squib for whatever reason. (See the greatly misfortuned man that is Nii Lamptey.)

As an example, I remember first hearing about Wayne Rooney in the pre-season before his Everton debut. Out of curiosity I looked him up in (I think) Champ Manager 01/02. He was absolutely awful. (By which I mean, a generic reserve striker.)

Here's another example, from CM 4, Andrés D'Allesandro had higher PA than Xavi and Rooney. Back then Zlatan Ibrahimovic, still of Ajax, had a PA of 180. So too did Mido, also of Ajax.

Nothing's ever going to be perfect, but the system is merely a decent stab at estimating how players will turn out. I personally find that the exaggerated PA's of some awful players are actually quite accurate. Mido probably could have been that good.

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[quote name='Cougar2010']How is that an issue?

He has reached the limit of his abilities, simple as that. This happens everyday in the real world.[/QUOTE]


I'm quite sure nobody was expecting Antonio Di Natale to become one of Italy's topscorers when he debuded in Serie A aged 25. And after a relatively modest career in lower divisions

In FM a case like his would have been handled in two ways:

1) relatively low PA in the db, according to his age and to his not so stellar cv thus far
2) higher PA he wouldn't have been able to reach anyway, as players tend not to fulfill their PA if not trained/played in the proper way within age 20-22

Either way, in FM it's almost impossible having a "Di Natale" or an "Amauri", much less a "Graham Alexander"

Give a PA of 200 to two 18 years olders with equal attributes and CA, then put one at Man Utd and one at Coventry City.
By the time they reach age 22, the one at Coventry, as well as he might have played there, will probably never be able to fulfill his 200PA regardless of he staying at Coventry or moving to Arsenal.

That's not how real life works...

A player can have "wasted" some years in average clubs, or even look like he has already peaked and will never be better... But the occurrence of "average players" having some sort of fresh start at a higer level is far from a rarity

Something that in FM just can't happen, with a huge impact on the transfers market dynamics and on the game as a whole

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[quote name='RBKalle']I'm quite sure nobody was expecting Antonio Di Natale to become one of Italy's topscorers when he debuded in Serie A aged 25. And after a relatively modest career in lower divisions

In FM a case like his would have been handled in two ways:

1) relatively low PA in the db, according to his age and to his not so stellar cv thus far
2) higher PA he wouldn't have been able to reach anyway, as players tend not to fulfill their PA if not trained/played in the proper way within age 20-22

Either way, in FM it's almost impossible having a "Di Natale" or an "Amauri", much less a "Graham Alexander"

Give a PA of 200 to two 18 years olders with equal attributes and CA, then put one at Man Utd and one at Coventry City.
By the time they reach age 22, the one at Coventry, as good as he might have played there, will probably never be able to fulfill his 200PA regardless of he staying at Coventry or moving to Arsenal.

That's not how real life works...

A player can have "wasted" some years in average clubs, or even look like he has already peaked and will never be better... But the occurrence of "average players" having some sort of fresh start at a higer level is far from a rarity[/QUOTE]


Di Natale is a real player though who is judged by fans and they can't see into the future so its impossible to identify a player that will turn out to be a "late bloomer" in RL.

The rest of your post is more about CA development than PA and I would agree that there should be more variety to it.

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Of course fans/researchers can't see into the future... But...

Take FM2008

Edin Dzeko has PA/CA 120/140, so if I was starting a new career in FM08, no matter how many goals Dzeko could have scored for my team, no matter how well I would have trained him, NOBODY would have wanted him among the Top Flight clubs.
And he wouldn't have improved a lick once he had peaked after one or two seasons, regardless of his actual performances.

And that goes for ANY player, original or newgen, with a relatively low CA he can reach at a somewhat young age.


It's partly about CA development, but it's also an issue related to a fixed PA [be it fixed or negative in the db] becoming an insourmontable obstacle to the development of a player.

Basically in FM you've got three kinds of players (who haven't peaked yet):

* Future Stars (high CA, high PA, good hidden skills, formed at Top Clubs/Nations)
* Lost Stars (average CA, high PA, mediocre hidden skills, formed at poor clubs/nations)
* Average Players (adequate CA/PA for their nation/league)

The latter won't ever have a chance to exceed the level they're currently playing at, and that's just not how football works...

Just like a PA 180 youngster can either become a Top EPL player or just fail to develop the right way and disappear in lower leagues, it'd be nice having a rather "average" youngster later turning into a good top-level player, if trained well.


Of course it would be just as difficult and relatively rare as it is fostering the 50/180 kid, but it should definitely be a possibility.


As the game works now, a couple of average youth intakes at, say, Real Madrid, would just get the axe as soon as you realize you haven't stumbled upon another Raul...
Basically a whole intake of 2.5* (say 125-140PA] players isn't even worth the time and the effort to bring them to through the ranks...

With a new chance to turn average guys into adequate top-level players [adequate, not stellar mind you] the game would become much more challenging.

As it is now, there is NO REASON to invest on youth academies and to buy players over 24-25 unless they're already well-established stars

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I believe PA should vary throughout a player's career. Players have good seasons, bad seasons, injuries.. it should be adjusting itself dynamically to reflect these events.

Perhaps have some tie in with form, better form gives the PA a chance to increase, poor form causes it to stall or drop. A good way this would work is if Drogba had an amazing breakthrough season, his PA would increase and could possibly increase to the top end of his designated PA scale. If he had a -9 then he could work his way up from the bottom end to the top end, depending how his career is going. I believe the PA brackets are the way forward.

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To be honest the PA does limit player development.

Someone said then it would be easy to create superstars and I laughed (sorry if offends to whomever said it). That is mind blogging excuse to be honest.

You might agree or not, but the point of this game is to represent real life. It is the point that we all love this game regardless of version of FM.

If that is so, then the game would permit a player develop early, mid or late bloomer.

Now I think there is easy way to do this without limits or PA. Just use the average rating of last season, age and motivation that moves up or down his stats (make some sort of calculation).

No one gave anything for Ronaldo when he was bought by Man United. Sure he had caught the eye of Fergusson, but he learn something early on in Man United, if he wanted to play first team he needed to work hard, every day. Be first to arrive to training and the last one to leave and give all that his got in the matches.

This is lesson of how things should be set in the game. At this point the training is pretty basic stuff, but we all have average rating of the player after a season. Why not use this?

You question is What if it produces a lot of super players? My answer is, they didn't created beta testing because it sounds cool or it was pretty name.

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I think this fits into what the OP means:

[QUOTE][B]Suggy33[/B]
Have a situation where if a striker scores alot of goals it will improve his reputation.

For example, a BSP striker scores alot of goals, and is bought by a League 1 club. His CA/PA may not be good enough for this level, but because of his reputation for scoring, he still gets played and scores goals at this level as well.[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='grade']To be honest the PA does limit player development.

[/QUOTE]

That's the point! It's an in-game limiter to stop all players becoming World Class.

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[quote name='HHUK']I believe PA should vary throughout a player's career. Players have good seasons, bad seasons, injuries.. it should be adjusting itself dynamically to reflect these events.

Perhaps have some tie in with form, better form gives the PA a chance to increase, poor form causes it to stall or drop. A good way this would work is if Drogba had an amazing breakthrough season, his PA would increase and could possibly increase to the top end of his designated PA scale. If he had a -9 then he could work his way up from the bottom end to the top end, depending how his career is going. I believe the PA brackets are the way forward.[/QUOTE]

CA does this.

Just because somebody has a bad season, doesn't mean their potential suddenly drops, they can still get back up to that level so PA shouldn't adjust.

I think people are getting CA and PA confused here.

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[quote name='numbas2']I would love SI to come out and say THIS IS HOW IT IS AND THIS IS WHY.

Silense would fall upon you all!


Chris Eagles has something like CA/PA of around 142, yet he played in my CL qualifying campaign with Newcastle playing 30 EPL games and getting 8.47 average. In your world you'd have sold him or not given him a look.


I agree with what has been said: play the game the way it was intended and you'll not have issues. Delve in too deep and you can get stuck on silly little details which take away from YOUR experience, at your expense, whilst everyone else is having a ball.[/QUOTE]

This sums it up. Ignore CA/PA. If you play properly you never need to know them.

And as has been pointed out, this really isn't a new idea. At all. Must be hundreds of threads on this subject that these thoughts could have been added too.

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[quote name='Kenco']That's the point! It's an in-game limiter to stop all players becoming World Class.[/QUOTE]

The limiter only needs for how well their average rating is last season, how age they are and how they are motivated.

What basically the PA is stating that if it states that certain player either develops in world Class in early 20s or doesn't develop at all.

Do you want or not the game to resemble real life? Then I believe there is better ways to do this development then using PA.

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[quote name='edgar555']This sums it up. Ignore CA/PA. If you play properly you never need to know them.

And as has been pointed out, this really isn't a new idea. At all. Must be hundreds of threads on this subject that these thoughts could have been added too.[/QUOTE]

Wow, now there is good way and wrong way to play? I thought FM gave the freedom to its users to play how we wanted... guess I was wrong.

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[quote name='Kenco']CA does this.

Just because somebody has a bad season, doesn't mean their potential suddenly drops, they can still get back up to that level so PA shouldn't adjust.

I think people are getting CA and PA confused here.[/QUOTE]

It's obvious their CA would drop with bad seasons and injuries but it still doesn't hide the weakness that fixed PA is an ineffective measurement with late bloomers.

PA is constantly adjusted in the database releases to go along with real life changes (as a players estimated potential develops as he does), so why would PA not be adjusted slightly to emulate this factor of "not being sure" in-game? It would also add a level of real-time randomness to the game, this would help emulate the total high PA flops (Fabio Paim) and late bloomers.

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[quote name='Kenco']That's the point! It's an in-game limiter to stop all players becoming World Class.[/QUOTE]

Sort of...

But not every player reaches his max PA in the game anyway, no matter how well you train them or how often you play them.

But I can't see a good reason for having a consistently solid player being stuck with the same attributes [e.g. max PA reached, no more improvement is possible] at age 24 just because the game "decided" that's the best level he'll ever reach.

On the same vein, why can't a former hot prospect who has "lost" a couple of seasons suddenly recapture his ancient form/skills?
Once the game decides the original PA can't be reached, a player will get a new "max CA"... so basically a former PA 180 can't now go higher than 130... And that makes no sense.


[quote name='Kenco']CA does this.

Just because somebody has a bad season, doesn't mean their potential suddenly drops, they can still get back up to that level so PA shouldn't adjust.[/quote]

Wrong.

The PA doesn't drop, but the Highest Attainable CA drops indeed.

So the absurdity is: two bad seasons: Player won't ever reach the original PA anymore
two good seasons: Player won't ever exceed the original PA anyway

According to the FM dynamic, a player like Giovinco would be doomed already after two seasons as backup at Juventus at his age.
His original PA is gone, and even in the case of a stellar breakthrough next year, he would never be as good as he could have been had he played regularly.

That's not how it works in real football... A player can stagnate and then become a hit even after many years of mediocrity.

FM works on a one-way level only.

Basically it's a straight line from starting CA to the original PA, or to a new, lower, PA renegotiated according to in-game events.

What the game doesn't renegotiate is when things go BETTER than expected...

A player can turn out worse than he's supposed to, but not better.

[quote]I think people are getting CA and PA confused here.[/QUOTE]

I think you're not entirely getting our point ;)


Lukaku can become 130, 170 or 195 depending on how the specific savegame goes.

Plenty of other players won't ever become better than 130 despite being consistently good, well trained and kept in high esteem by the human manager

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[quote name='Kenco']That's the point! It's an in-game limiter to stop all players becoming World Class.[/QUOTE]

...and it also stops the Drogba's of the world from being reflected in-game.
The problem is that in real life, players have their performances weighed to determine whether or not they're World Class. The game relies on the opinions of a handful of people.
My proposal would solve this, without having everyone becoming World Class. In my system, a player will only develop his PA to the level of the league he's playing in; once he reaches that point, he'd need to play (and do well) in a higher league to continue developing.

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I do like this idea. I'm thinking if a player from accrington is signed by man utd then surely he will have a higher potential through the better coaches/training facilities at man utd??
PA should be based on [B][COLOR="Red"](current stats for position + training facilities + coaches)[/COLOR][/B] not just random.

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