If you didn't buy/disliked FM09, what would make you buy FM10?

[Les Girondins]

I'm frankly amazed nobody has taken the TT&F material, expanded on it and made it 'readable' by all and published it as the Tactical Bible For Dummies.

Make a fortune.

[iamjerome]

I'm open to anyone's opinion if it makes sense. CaptainPlanet uses the word game-breaking yet goes on to say that he has played the game and attained a good degree of success. Nothing is game-breaking if that is the case.

Game-breaking is not the word. Breaking leads to broken and FM09 is not broken.

Plus, SI have done a swift job to rectify anything that would lead to broken. How many games get a patch prior to release.

I have to leave this discussion for now. No hard feelings to anyone.

stop being so pedantic please. would game-"ruining" suffice? i know the game was ruined for me 9.0 until i knew of 9.1. and then 9.1 was ruined for a month until 9.2 because of serie c's bug, and now i don't want to start a new game until 9.3 because of the bojan bug.

[DJdeMarco]

The removal of DRM and making the web connection utilised by the IGA optional.

[Kain]

A more accurate reflection of the tactical set-up in the match engine (i.e. fullbacks not galloping miles down the field when you set their mentalities low and forward runs on rarely)

Spain being playable.

Major flaws not being in the game.

Unfortunately, you can't tell if the last two are ok just from the demo, so it'll be the first one since CM3 I don't buy on release date, regardless of what they do.

[Hamselv]

The removal of DRM and making the web connection utilised by the IGA optional.

Those are the two things that kept me from buying FM09.

Bugs and various problems with game features are things I've pretty much gotten used to after playing so many versions of FM and CM throughout the years, so that alone could never stop me from buying.

DRM and adware are both things I despise though, so they managed to do something I thought impossible: Made me not buy the latest installment of FM.

Adware is an acceptable way of financing free programs/games, but not something I will accept in a game I buy. Luckily it seems now that it's pretty easy to just block it with a software firewall, so though it's not ideal I would probably buy FM10 even with adware.

That leaves us with only one thing SEGA/SI will need to do to get me to buy FM10: Skip the DRM!

[CaptainPlanet]

The "adware" that comes with FM09 is so minimal it's barely invasive at all, sending your PC specs to SI for market research is hardly the worlds greatest invasion of privacy.

[Hamselv]

The "adware" that comes with FM09 is so minimal it's barely invasive at all, sending your PC specs to SI for market research is hardly the worlds greatest invasion of privacy.

Sending the hardware specs is part of the activation process and has nothing to do with the adware.

When you install the game, you accept that a third party "IGA Worldwide Inc.", does the following:

Information collected through Computer Games

IGA technology delivers content and information to and from certain Internet-connected computer games that use our services. In order to select the content that is displayed during the game, IGA uses the IP address of the game players computer. IGA does not use IP addresses to ascertain any game player's identity. The IP address is used to determine the player's country or city, the game being played, the size and length of time that content is displayed within a game, and the length of a game session. This data is used to calculate the fees that are charged to third party content providers and advertisers.

Aggregated statistical information such as the percentage of users playing in a particular area or the average length of a game session, may be shared with these third parties. IP addresses are retained only until the end of a game session.

That's adware.

[Donners]

The "adware" that comes with FM09 is so minimal it's barely invasive at all, sending your PC specs to SI for market research is hardly the worlds greatest invasion of privacy.

Such things should be opt in rather than opt out. I must admit, I'd wondered why even the demo kept trying to connect to the Internet. Fortunately, I've got it blocked by ZoneAlarm, but it is not something that should be happening without explicit consent.

[VonBlade]

Speed. Goddam 09 is like molasses.

And a comprehensive "start now and don't stop writing questions and responses until August 09" media overhaul.

Otherwise, it's fine.

Oh and some more haircuts for the regens. Nobody has bright yellow hair. Not even Cisse.

[Wakers]

Fix the bugs, optimise the game. And I mean, fix all of the bugs that have been around since FM06 and before. Optimise the game.

IGA/DRM gone.

New tactics interface.

Major-bug free demo.

Then i might think about it.

[Les Girondins]

Just want to add that FM feels like its been going backwards in terms of what you can do on contemporary hardware.

In 1997 I used to look forward to every major advance in hardware as it allowed me to run more of the CM universe ..

Now my 3ghz dual core machine struggles with 40 leagues ..

Can we have a 'world of football' type experience back? Even if it means the non active leagues/low detail results are processed like in the 'Olde Days'?

FM has been getting progressively more clusterphobic and Premier League focussed imho and the regionalisation of staff and players is very limiting to your enjoyment and the sense of awesome perspective I enjoyed in older versions ..

[Jirki88]

The thing that would make me buy FM10: faster game. If they can bring loading speed down to what it was for FM08, it'd be brilliant. Loading Speed is my only major concern in FM09.

[grade]

My turn.

The DRM. Someone said "The DRM is doing what it is intended to do." I agree, it is intended to give big headache on those who buy the games, instead of those who download the pirate version. Those people that say the DRM and activation works, then they are kidding themselves, because I have couple of friends who downloaded freely the game and played (yes past tense, because it was also buggy gave up on FM10, they prefer to spend the money and play Fifa09 or PES09) the game, because FM08 was full of bugs before the patch and they simply moved on and decided not buy any more FM games. So basically SI just lost some money and eventually they will do like The Baseball and Hockey games they used to did, they will drop the FM and focus on FM Live. They even say it was better to download and pirate the game to spend money on buggy game and i have to agree.

The overall of the game. I personally think they need to simply pick up FM07 implement the new stuff that was on FM08 and FM09 and improve it. Drop the Match Day stuff, make it an option. You can have match day or like FM07 if you choose the Ass. manager do the team talk (yes there is people who do that), it is not necessary to show up. I said before on FM08 and I'm saying again, which is clearly shows me that half of the suggestion SI don't read it.

The design. I think it can be highly improved, because I play in Window mode and on the transfer news i have to use the scrawls to see the stats of the team with the logo. It seams to me unfinished. Drop the white skin (it is what i call it). In every game it had new skin and decided to choose the ugliest of them all in two years in a row. There are a lot here to talk about, so when I have time i will post it.

The Match engine(not the 3D or graphics). Well it seems to me a major walk backwards compare to FM07 and even FM08, because it seems that SI in previous season only watched matches of Benfica (those who are portuguese and saw SL Benfica matches know what i'm talking about), because they don't act like normal players (and yes i suffer pathetic goals on last minutes matches, like some one on another thread said i was up 3-0 and I usually end up drawing or even loosing and I usually make minor adjustments defending or full out attack, but players don't do what I tell them and yes I have to pause the game to do it without any pressures, that is why I want the option of continuous or stop the time on subs). That is why I love about FM07 the players obey my orders, I might be loosing and end up loosing when i change full out attack, but on the match shows me my players attacking more or make more counter attacks.

The 3D is a joke people. I explainas follows. I will say as many times as possible for the people at SI to read it. Because the graphics seems taken out of 1980's, for the minimal requirements they ask for. I personally the game runs fine because i recently upgrade my desktop, but what it seems to be forgotten by either SI or the company who did the 3D animations and stole money from SI and Sega (or both) is that there is more portable computers then there is desktops. A game that SI could use it as slogan was it ran on somewhat old computers (desktop or portable) and I think SI will suffer for this option. Also the 3D seems incomplete, the ball passes through the bill boards and the stands, which is one big bug, a minor in the match perspective. Not to mention the Kits thingy not showing on the match screen and being replace by logos, which seems a ugly in design matter, because Why do I want to see the logos repeated on the top and then on the match screen? Big... very, very, very huge bad decision, because it simply laughing at the faces of those who wasted their free time (don't get paid at all) to make the kits and like someone said here (i don't know if it was Radestock or Michaelmurray) said to me: "If you want to see the kits go to the Club Information." First of all, I... did not... need to read that! There was two places where i could see the kits, one at match screen and the other on Club information. If the kits are replaced on match screen it is only left the Club information. You don't need university degree to figure that out. How about an alternative? How about to replace the logos on top with the kits? An simple solution and probably easily thing for SI to do. It can be done. IN clonclusion of the 3D, is this what I see on my game is not what I saw on the videos that SI released, so I feel cheated.

The forums. They are very user unfriendly. They are huge as hell, with almost 200 threads or more on the same page and also 200 posts on every single thread. It is hard and tiresome to read. No wonder why people take the easy route, just post a new thread in just few minutes, when searching for the answer hours and why there is little activity from those who control the forums or the people of SI. Why not diminish to 20 both threads per page and posts per page on the threads. Also why not create FM09 Wish list, a FM10 Wish list, FM11 Wish list threads, instead of a single one that is huge as hell, with old wish lists for FM05, FM06, FM07. Some who is new get confused and also the veteran does not have the patience to read it all (myself included) and I see that some suggestions get forgotten among the confusion.

I can't say much of Transfer system, but what I saw, it seems to me unchanged and somewhat unrealistic. I say this because, if Chelsea or Man United or Man City place a player on the reserves its because the player is not part of Manager's plans. So why does the club say they don't want to loan the player, because of the player's first team duties. So why the player is reserve team in the first place. Is he taking vacation? Is he off duty because of trouble in the family? That gentleman and ladies is unreal to me. I do not see Scolari, Mourinho or Ferguson do in real life, if the player doesn't have major injury (more then 3 months). Also buying players is the same, you have to give much more then the value of the player. The only improvement is somewhat easier to sell and loan players. Much more I can't say, but I hope that it was fixed players more then 34 get kick on the butt, independently the player's average rating in the previous season and no one wants to hire him.

If these are fix, I will buy FM10.

So to end this there is lot of things for Si to do, not only the match.

[Donners]

Firstly, G'day Nick

I can't believe it took me a few minutes to identify a 25-year-old Southampton and Richmond fan who knew me!

[Grimoz]

I gave the demo a pretty fair go, and decided not to get it. For me, I think the following need to be improved before I would consider buying the next version:

Assistant Manager: Suggestions need to be vastly improved. Many are obscure (gap between midfield and defence, for instance) with none of the obvious solutions making the comment go away, and no feedback as to potential solutions. Indeed, that's a common issue when a player is listed as being unused to a certain tactical style, and changing that style for the individual does not make the comment go away. It's frustrating and unintuitive.

Media: Much better range of answers, rather than the current “strongly agree” to “strongly disagree”. For instance, if a player criticises an aspect of a manager's style, it's unclear if disagreeing with that is saying that his concerns are unjustified, or that it's the style and he must deal with it. The appropriateness of questions needs to be considered as well – why would a Conference manager be asked his thoughts on the World Player of the Year, and why would his squad gain morale at his answer?

Graphics: Clearing out a few of the graphical quirks would be appreciated. They don't need to look great, but players should have some distinctiveness and everything should be smoother than it is. Also, if commentary only is selected, the graphics should not have to be loaded if you go into the tactics. It's an irritating delay.

User Interface: I should not have to close down the formation half of the screen every damned time I get to the Team Selection. I know my formation – I want to see more detail on the players when I'm selecting the side. This is particularly bad if you run the game in windowed mode. There should be a degree of customization as to the default view, or at least some memory of what the user selects

DRM: Appropriate DRM must deter pirates as much as possible without inconveniencing legitimate users. Many would argue that the DRM in FM09 fails in this regard. I would be much more comfortable with a Stardock-style DRM.

I've not been able to test out enough of the transfer market or player development in the demo to properly assess it, but I know that at least the former had a lot of room for improvement in previous versions.

So, what do you need to see improved/added in order to get the next version?

Think I will wait until FM11 to buy again, just so that im not paying for a database update, at least if I get FM11 their might be things on it that suprise me, nothing in the past 3 games have done that.

[platty1987]

I'd like to see a Chairman mode of the game. Instead of being the manager, be the chairman, or both even. It would be a great addition but whether SI could fit it all into one game would be another question entirely.

[sthptngomad76]

I can't believe it took me a few minutes to identify a 25-year-old Southampton and Richmond fan who knew me!

Hehe, not too many of us around. Let's hope not I wouldn't wish it upon anyone

[DJdeMarco]

Those are the two things that kept me from buying FM09.

DRM and adware are both things I despise though, so they managed to do something I thought impossible: Made me not buy the latest installment of FM.

Luckily it seems now that it's pretty easy to just block it with a software firewall, so though it's not ideal I would probably buy FM10 even with adware.

These are the two things that stopped me from buying for the first time in as long as I can remember. I recently binned my Amiga with an old CM title and, until this year, I bought every version since.

Unfortunately, the solution of blocking FM with a firewall is only good for those who choose not to play network games - something me and my partner were planning on doing.

[Hamselv]

These are the two things that stopped me from buying for the first time in as long as I can remember. I recently binned my Amiga with an old CM title and, until this year, I bought every version since.

Unfortunately, the solution of blocking FM with a firewall is only good for those who choose not to play network games - something me and my partner were planning on doing.

I don't play network games as much as I used to, so at least for me it would be a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

I've been a loyal SI customer for so many years too, and I find it sad that what finally stopped be from buying the game wasn't that I grew old and started to find the game less entertaining (I still love it!), but a few outside factors not even directly related to the game.

A few greedy marketing folks went too far (at least in my opinion) and added in-game advertisements, to squeeze a few extra bucks out of the customers.

A few paranoid (marketing?) folks decided that restricting and inconveniencing every single honest customer with DRM is well worth it, since it does not prevent the pirates from playing the game

Ads belong in freeware.

DRM belong nowhere.

[Les Girondins]

Ads belong in freeware

DRM belong nowhere TM

Edited for accuracy.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Reworked tactics module, or at least a reworked tactics GUI.

I doubt ill buy another fm until this dated and unintuitive system is fixed

[The Vet]

This version is the most bugfilled version of FM and unsatisfying one - when it comes to match play. If Si-games are able to patch this up so 3D is as gratifying as 2d was, and fixes the stats display, then I would probably not need another version, though I would still buy FM 10.

However, if this game remains in this current state(even when patched up), I have then lost all faith in 3D football simulators(as I already have with EAs, despite the fact that they are getting closer and closer). Currently I had as much fun with Kevin Toms Football Manager from the early 80s as with FM 09. SI games seems to have lost the ball completely, and releasing something where it is so evident that no one has testet the game(or else they are ********)prior to release is sickening even if I understand that they want to release for X-mas.

For FM 10 they should consider this: "It is done, when it is done".

[GillsMan]

I gave the demo a pretty fair go, and decided not to get it. For me, I think the following need to be improved before I would consider buying the next version:

1) Assistant Manager: Suggestions need to be vastly improved. Many are obscure (gap between midfield and defence, for instance) with none of the obvious solutions making the comment go away, and no feedback as to potential solutions. Indeed, that's a common issue when a player is listed as being unused to a certain tactical style, and changing that style for the individual does not make the comment go away. It's frustrating and unintuitive.

2) Media: Much better range of answers, rather than the current “strongly agree” to “strongly disagree”. For instance, if a player criticises an aspect of a manager's style, it's unclear if disagreeing with that is saying that his concerns are unjustified, or that it's the style and he must deal with it. The appropriateness of questions needs to be considered as well – why would a Conference manager be asked his thoughts on the World Player of the Year, and why would his squad gain morale at his answer?

3) Graphics: Clearing out a few of the graphical quirks would be appreciated. They don't need to look great, but players should have some distinctiveness and everything should be smoother than it is. Also, if commentary only is selected, the graphics should not have to be loaded if you go into the tactics. It's an irritating delay.

4) User Interface: I should not have to close down the formation half of the screen every damned time I get to the Team Selection. I know my formation – I want to see more detail on the players when I'm selecting the side. This is particularly bad if you run the game in windowed mode. There should be a degree of customization as to the default view, or at least some memory of what the user selects

5) DRM: Appropriate DRM must deter pirates as much as possible without inconveniencing legitimate users. Many would argue that the DRM in FM09 fails in this regard. I would be much more comfortable with a Stardock-style DRM.

I've not been able to test out enough of the transfer market or player development in the demo to properly assess it, but I know that at least the former had a lot of room for improvement in previous versions.

So, what do you need to see improved/added in order to get the next version?

1) Not sure how "gap between midfield and defence" is obscure - it's surely quite clear that you need to reduce the gap between your midfielders and your defence? And you'd do this in the individual tactics for your midfielders and defenders.

2) I "strongly agree" with that.

3) Graphics will improve in each version, have no fears.

5) As you're not aware of what the aims of the DRM in FM09 were, I'm not sure you're placed to judge whether it has succeeded or failed. SI and Sega are both well aware of where the problems were though (and these were not caused by the DRM per se, but by other, connected, facets).

[Äktsjon Männ]

1) Not sure how "gap between midfield and defence" is obscure - it's surely quite clear that you need to reduce the gap between your midfielders and your defence? And you'd do this in the individual tactics for your midfielders and defenders.

Imagine for a second that you know nothing about the Rule of One, mentality frameworks and all other tactical guidelines that are only accessible through this forum. Now imagine yourself, as a less experienced player, struggling to find success in FM. You turn to your assistant who will tell you the gap between midfield and defense is your problem. How would you go about solving this? Would you

a) try to fix this through arrows, removing barrows from your defenders, adding a barrow for your midfielder(s) or a farrow for your full backs;

b) put a player in the supposed gap filling the DM position or

c) have a 'heureka' moment finding the exact slider in the mess that is the UI, titled as simply 'mentality' with no hint about having anything to do with positioning, and tighten the gap by setting it all in a 'framework' of 6 or however many notches it's needed for the 'gap' suggestion to disappear?

I seriously doubt the answer would be c. This suggestion is useless to anyone who hasn't read the information provided on here yet it's similarly useless to those that have since they wouldn't make the mistake in the first place.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Imagine for a second that you know nothing about the Rule of One, mentality frameworks and all other tactical guidelines that are only accessible through this forum. Now imagine yourself, as a less experienced player, struggling to find success in FM. You turn to your assistant who will tell you the gap between midfield and defense is your problem. How would you go about solving this? Would you

a) try to fix this through arrows, removing barrows from your defenders, adding a barrow for your midfielder(s) or a farrow for your full backs;

b) put a player in the supposed gap filling the DM position or

c) have a 'heureka' moment finding the exact slider in the mess that is the UI, titled as simply 'mentality' with no hint about having anything to do with positioning, and tighten the gap by setting it all in a 'framework' of 6 or however many notches it's needed for the 'gap' suggestion to dissapear?

I seriously doubt the answer would be c. This suggestion is useless to anyone who hasn't read the information provided on here yet it's similarly useless to those that have since they wouldn't make the mistake in the first place.

^^ Very much this

Ive played every version on cm/fm and the gap message still appearing after i had placed a player in the dm position was a complete wtf moment

Its only through reading the frame works that i learned the gap isnt a gap, but more an imagined gap created through my sliders being to far apart

[Donners]

Perfectly described. That's exactly what I mean by it being obscure and unintuitive, where the most obvious responses to the message have no effect, and the only one the game will accept is some fiddling with a bunch of sliders to get a certain combination. It feels like a puzzle game, FFS, and not a very good one since there is no hint as to the appropriate solution.

THe most annoying thing is that this comes up on default settings, with a basic 4-4-2 formation with individual players set with basic instructions for their positions. Since this is what tactical novices (or those who just don't care so much about tactics much) will often go for, why confront them with such a message straight up? That's distinctly user unfriendly.

[Hamselv]

I sometimes have a feeling that SI is having trouble figuring out in which direction they want to go.

Most of the features they have added recently (wizards, advisors, 3D view, etc.) seem to be aimed at the mass market, but then they turn the one thing (tactics) that more than anything else decides whether you will be successful or not into something that only the real hardcore fans will be able to handle.

When you try to head in all directions at once, you usually won't go anywhere at all. In this case they are trying to get as many people as possible to play a game they won't be good at. If people have too much trouble winning in a game, then only very few will take the time to look at detailed tactic strategies on the internet - Most people will probably just not bother and try out CM or FIFA Manager next year instead.

Maybe a suggestion I saw a while back about adding difficulty levels in the game is the way forward. Hardcore fans can already turn off all the new mass market features, so maybe the mass market gamers should be able to turn off the hardcore features?

[pauly1616]

less bs features, more work on what is there now including the tactical framework which has been virtually unchanged for years

[why?]

I sometimes have a feeling that SI is having trouble figuring out in which direction they want to go.

When you try to head in all directions at once, you usually won't go anywhere at all.

Two of the best quotes i've read on GQ, not that i ever really come in here.

I think the problem is that too many features are bungled into each new release of the game before any of the existing ones have been fine tuned. I've not bought 09 (although i want to, because i still need my fix, and because i binned my copy of 07 a couple of months ago), the reason being that so many of the old problems with the game still seem to exist. The media interaction is woeful, in fact it's an embarassment really. The coaching/training side of the game appears to be utterly pointless (you cannot teach a short passing game, and even if you could the ME wouldn't interpret your instructions properly), and the transfer model still seems poor, at least judging by some of the problems i read about on here.

Unfortunately rectifying old problems doesn't help to sell new games, and therefore i doubt we'll see the game we want any time soon. Back when the company was small, and the people involved were better connected to the user base these issues would have been addressed. Those days are long gone however.

[Codename47]

I'm a veteran on CM / FM since the early 90's.

Why do they persist in releasing a version each year which is more bugged than bloody Pandora's box, how unprofessional is that, it makes me so angry that it has put me off buying the new release each year.

All I ever see is bug this bug that, this isnt working, that isnt working!!!

I get the impression that they do it on purpose or there would be nothing to work on.

You would have thought by now that the ME would be more or less solved w/o stupid sh*t occuring all the time.

And the 3d viewer needs working on, you only have to look at the GK's!!

Too many injuries etc etc - blimey I could go on.......

How many years does it take to rectify this????

Not moaning as such, but constructive criticism as I used to love the FM series.

[TheRealMagpies]

I watched the Blackpool v Wolves match last night and noticed the commentator said Wolves play the same home, away and against whoever they play. They don't change it because what they do works.

When i heard that i thought, yes but it doesn't on FM09!

It's never worked on ANY version of FM with standard regular tactics (ie Non Diablo Style tactics), and i doubt it will ever be a viable option.

[TheRealMagpies]

1) Not sure how "gap between midfield and defence" is obscure - it's surely quite clear that you need to reduce the gap between your midfielders and your defence? And you'd do this in the individual tactics for your midfielders and defenders.

Sorry Gill but i disagree with you on this one.

Whilst I've played several versions of this game, my wife reading over my shoulder (who has NEVER played any version of this game) thought it meant i had to move 1 of my players into the space mentioned, whilst i knew from experience it meant fiddling with mentalities for a few minutes.

Interpretation of ingame messages is a key aspect to this game, and far too often the meaning of a phrase is not what it appears to be.

When we the players are given a list of possible statements, those statements would be better off presented in clear plain english, and then converted into soccerism's afterwards

Yes i know soccerspeak can be highly amusing at times, but it often seems they have been cut&pasted together from a random list.

[why?]

Exactly, so much about the game is way too obscure. The whole idea of a simulation game is to simulate the real life experience as best as possible.

Instead of having to play a guessing game with sliders just because you want to shore up the midfield, or make your team more compact, we should have a direct option. Instructions for individual players should also be more specific to the position they have on the field. For example, there is very little (if any) need to be able to tell your CB how much to dribble the ball. Similarly, there is little or no need to be able to tell your FC how tightly to mark the opposition. This in my mind is really basic stuff, and yet it makes it into each game, year after year.

Before anyone jumps in and points to players like Danny Agger dribbling out of defence, you need to remember this is a computer game and keep your expectations slightly grounded, imho of course.

In real life, i doubt Bentiez calls Mascherano over and says to him, "Listen Masch, i want you to sit deep again today"...."How deep boss?", says Masch..."Well lets call it about a four, on a scale of one-to-ten". No, he just tells him to sit deep, tells him his responsibilities, and then the ability of the player to undertake these instructions is the deciding factor in how well the plan works.

Just a little disclaimer, the last edition i bought was FM07, so i may be slightly incorrect with a point or two there.

[small Mac]

Alot of good points in here.

I didn't purchase FM09 for the simple reason my computer couldn't play the demo to an acceptable speed. First time ever that i have missed out on a version of CM/FM because of lack of computer power. Then all the various problems with DRM and bugs put me off being willing to try the game anyway even with the slow speed.

So for me to buy FM10, i'll need a new computer first, but also i'd like to see a version that is not contain so many bugs and faults on release. There is something that is not working with the testing process at the moment and this needs to be rectified asap.

EDIT: Ha just noticed the beta-tester topic from Paul C

[lawsie]

I have never seen a whine thread before on these forums.

[Nomis07]

I have never seen a whine thread before on these forums.

I don't think it is a "whine thread", it's coherent and has raised some interesting discussions. A whine thread would be your typical idiot ranting, similar to the people who post boost with moans about moans.

[Murchadh]

Exactly, so much about the game is way too obscure. The whole idea of a simulation game is to simulate the real life experience as best as possible.

Instead of having to play a guessing game with sliders just because you want to shore up the midfield, or make your team more compact, we should have a direct option. Instructions for individual players should also be more specific to the position they have on the field. For example, there is very little (if any) need to be able to tell your CB how much to dribble the ball. Similarly, there is little or no need to be able to tell your FC how tightly to mark the opposition. This in my mind is really basic stuff, and yet it makes it into each game, year after year.

Before anyone jumps in and points to players like Danny Agger dribbling out of defence, you need to remember this is a computer game and keep your expectations slightly grounded, imho of course.

In real life, i doubt Bentiez calls Mascherano over and says to him, "Listen Masch, i want you to sit deep again today"...."How deep boss?", says Masch..."Well lets call it about a four, on a scale of one-to-ten". No, he just tells him to sit deep, tells him his responsibilities, and then the ability of the player to undertake these instructions is the deciding factor in how well the plan works.

Just a little disclaimer, the last edition i bought was FM07, so i may be slightly incorrect with a point or two there.

I beg to differ. You are correct when referring to the standard (442 and umpteen variations thereof) attempted in England, but... have you ever heard of "total football"? It is essential in that system that a DC has ball playing skills and that he USE them, i.e. dribbling with ball, making forward runs, etc.

There is a specific reason why you want a striker to tightly mark an opposing DC. One example of how this could be used is if you have access to a towering, strong striker and the opposing DC is a wimp. Pump in Target man balls and see what happens.

[Nomis07]

I beg to differ. You are correct when referring to the standard (442 and umpteen variations thereof) attempted in England, but... have you ever heard of "total football"? It is essential in that system that a DC has ball playing skills and that he USE them, i.e. dribbling with ball, making forward runs, etc.

There is a specific reason why you want a striker to tightly mark an opposing DC. One example of how this could be used is if you have access to a towering, strong striker and the opposing DC is a wimp. Pump in Target man balls and see what happens.

Indeed. Player specific instructions rely heavily on the player in question. Whilst it may seem pointless to have an option re dribbling for Titus Bramble, it could come in handy with Rio Ferdinand, think of it as the chance to operate a Baresi/Bechenbauer style defender if you so wish.

[Smac]

I have never seen a whine thread before on these forums.

Musta been posting those 404 posts in the OT forum then? ( )

I must say that I'm rather shocked to see so many people having a good old rant. I thought that was my job! Oh wait, no. I thought that what was supposed to happen was: 1 person has a rant, and the pack then tries to tear them apart without looking like animals.

I'm enjoying FM09 so far (only had it a few days), but it is really quite like FM08 in that its irritating almost as much as it is fun.

I don't know that SI's reasons for adding modules is so simple as "We want more fans, so we'll appeal to more kinds of fans with more things to do". (as someone suggests above) I do think they really want to make the best game possible for its own sake. The problem seems twofold to me:

1. Economics: Most popular game in Britain. So who's going to change the basic mechanics when you can print money? The success of the franchise has a stranglehold on any creative new steps it might take. This leads to:

2. Bureaucratization of 'improvement' of the game. The game grows like a government: add a new thing here, a new thing there, and pretty soon you have to tax everyone to pay for it!

Combined, these have had the effect of smothering the core lure of the game under bloated and outdated catacombs of software. But this is hard to detect directly. On the surface, many improvements year to year seem good, taken individually. Its 'as a unit' that things are actually getting worse, or at least are only treading water.

The key element that is damaged is the flow-of-experience for the player. In FM06 I could develop several gratifying paces at which to play the game: I could slow down and micromanage, or I could play match-to-match, enjoying the great plays that invariably would occur, or I could speed ahead and blast my way through a season to try out a new formation, or "make it to transfer day". The simplicity of the game, combined with its inherent depth ("there's a whole world out there being simulated, which you can check in on in various ways") made for a relaxing sandbox for managerial ambition.

But the new features, although well-intentioned, have turned this flying-carpet of a spreadsheet dream into just another mile of dreary rug.

Its not that things like media interaction can't be fun, its just that they have to be fun within the larger fun-ness going on. I imagine various voice-overs or animated commentators piping in during a match, or an in-game radio station (like GTA, eh?) that subtly refers to actual events and draws the player toward media interaction from time to time ("Get on the phone to diffuse those Anderson transfer rumors!"). What-ever! But if the choice is: slog through yet another media event OR have your AssMan screw up your team morale, this is a constriction, not a liberation. These kinds of 'features' should be cut entirely (or for heaven's sake, made truly optional in an OPTIONS menu) until such time as they can add to immersion without interrupting flow.

The game needs a development leader who will take no prisoners on the way to maintaining or increasing FUN. Fun isn't bells and whistles. It is immersion and room to play. Someone save the series!

[Donners]

Sounds to me like you're heading down the path of FIFA Manager, where you can select certain elements which are your responsibility as manager and effectively turn off the rest.

I think you rightly identify a concern that leaving things in the hands of your assistant can lead to them being botched, which is very frustrating - either you have to suffer through a feature which you are not interested in, or skip through it and risk having a negative effect on the thing you do care about - the actual matches. I suppose some may argue that you should choose a better assistant, who will not cause problems, but that may not be a complete solution.

CM/FM has never really had features which can be disabled, whether it is because it would imbalance the game or simply because it was never considered necessary. It is certainly something that would be worth considering though.

[why?]

I beg to differ. You are correct when referring to the standard (442 and umpteen variations thereof) attempted in England, but... have you ever heard of "total football"? It is essential in that system that a DC has ball playing skills and that he USE them, i.e. dribbling with ball, making forward runs, etc.

There is a specific reason why you want a striker to tightly mark an opposing DC. One example of how this could be used is if you have access to a towering, strong striker and the opposing DC is a wimp. Pump in Target man balls and see what happens.

These are very good points, and ones which i would wholeheartedly agree with. However in my opinion, the ME isn't capable of taking advantange of these options. For example, if i tell my CB to run out of defence will that then be replicated within the ME?....as far as i have ever seen in FM, the answer is no. Like you, i would love to be able to play a game like this and build a team that plays total football, but at the moment it just isn't possible. Therefore as far as i can tell, FM has options available to the user that are purely cosmetic, and this, imo (again) is pointless.

People need to remember that text commentary was the only option availiable 5 years ago (ish). Now we're expecting a 3D ME to reproduce top level games of football and it just isn't going to happen, for now anyway. Hence why i would rather a ME that concentrates on the basics for now, and introduces substantial improvements over time, but only when they are of genuine use to the user. Not just cosmetic.

Edit: by the way, your second example is wrong. You shouldn't have to tell a striker to mark a centre back in order for that to be used in an offensive situation. There should be an offensive option for target men that says "stand near CB x", or something similar. Thats my point, the current system is so vague. You have to use defensive instructions in order to achieve an offensive goal. This is quite amateurish imo. A better system would be one that utilises a player's intelligence. So intelligent players would make the decision to stand against the weak CB themselves, rather than having to be spoon-fed every single little detail by the manager.

[why?]

Indeed. Player specific instructions rely heavily on the player in question. Whilst it may seem pointless to have an option re dribbling for Titus Bramble, it could come in handy with Rio Ferdinand, think of it as the chance to operate a Baresi/Bechenbauer style defender if you so wish.

Again, it sounds fantastic, but do you actually see Ferdinand come dribbling out of defence and past the midfield on FM? If you have, i'd imagine you are one of a very select group of people.

[treble_yell_:-)]

These are very good points, and ones which i would wholeheartedly agree with. However in my opinion, the ME isn't capable of taking advantange of these options. For example, if i tell my CB to run out of defence will that then be replicated within the ME?....as far as i have ever seen in FM, the answer is no. Like you, i would love to be able to play a game like this and build a team that plays total football, but at the moment it just isn't possible. Therefore as far as i can tell, FM has options available to the user that are purely cosmetic, and this, imo (again) is pointless.

People need to remember that text commentary was the only option availiable 5 years ago (ish). Now we're expecting a 3D ME to reproduce top level games of football and it just isn't going to happen, for now anyway. Hence why i would rather a ME that concentrates on the basics for now, and introduces substantial improvements over time, but only when they are of genuine use to the user. Not just cosmetic.

Cutting through my waffle, i'd love the be able to give each player individual instructions IF they actually made a difference in the ME. Right now they do not.

Edit: by the way, your second example is wrong. You shouldn't have to tell a striker to mark a centre back in order for that to be used in an offensive situation. There should be an option for target men that says "stand near CB x", or something similar. Thats my point, the current system is so vague. You have to use defensive instructions in order to achieve an offensive goal. This is quite amateurish imo.

I disagree 100% , the fact that the ME was displayed via text only a few years ago has no bearing on anything, the underlying mechanics of the ME were sound then and are sound now, that in 5 years we have went from text to 3D doesn't mean the ME isn't up to making your team do the things you describe...

In fact everything you say you want to be able to do is entirely possible in the current ME , you can make a team play total football, you can use a libero , the problem isnt if the ME is up to handling these situations, its making them easier to achieve through an improved tactical module.

The problem with FM is getting your CB to make forward runs from defence isnt as simple as just having the forward runs slider high

[Äktsjon Männ]

Again, it sounds fantastic, but do you actually see Ferdinand come dribbling out of defence and past the midfield on FM? If you have, i'd imagine you are one of a very select group of people.

Actually it does happen occasionally in 09. I've had a central defender pick the ball up on the edge of our box after a corner and charge down the right flank right into the opposition box to win a corner at the other end. One of the most brilliant FM moments for me that was even though we didn't score. I've also noticed defenders dribbling beyond the half way line on other occasions. I've never told them to do it though, both my centre backs have rwb on rarely.

[why?]

I disagree 100% , the fact that the ME was displayed via text only a few years ago has no bearing on anything, the underlying mechanics of the ME were sound then and are sound now, that in 5 years we have went from text to 3D doesn't mean the ME isn't up to making your team do the things you describe...

In fact everything you say you want to be able to do is entirely possible in the current ME , you can make a team play total football, you can use a libero , the problem isnt if the ME is up to handling these situations, its making them easier to achieve through an improved tactical module.

The problem with FM is getting your CB to make forward runs from defence isnt as simple as just having the forward runs slider high

You're confused, i said that 5 years ago we had text, now we have 3D, and need to lower expectations a little and get the basics sorted. I didn't claim it has a bearing on the current ME. They are two different match engines. I'm refering to whichever edition was the last before 2D came in, can't remember which (or be bothered to look it up). Anyway that's besides the point. You want total football, and yet the game cannot easily implement tactics such as a high or deep defensive line properly yet.

Total football just isn't possible with the ME, it really isn't. If you disagree with me on this you need to check out some Dutch games from the 70s and 80s under Rinus Michels, then you'll understand total football. Todays top footballers find this system hard to replicate, and yet you think this ME is capable? I cannot agree with that.

[IbrahimAliMaher]

I didn't buy 09 as there hasn't been a significant evolution since 08, plus 08 was so horrendously buggy that it really put me off, and they clearly haven't learned from their mistakes this year. Consequently if I was going to buy a managerial game next year I'd have to seriously check out the competition, and at the very least I'd wait until it's been patched at least once before buying.

[monkeezgob]

A much better 3d ME, it's just not an accurate reprsentation of a football game. The weight and physics of the ball look very dubious, the ball pings about like a ping pong ball, yet at other times, no matter what the weather conditions, it sudden seems to stop rolling very suddenly as if it were a dead weight. You have a game that looks more likea game of kick and rush with 20 littlle animated players all charging up the pitch towards a ball sitting prone in the other half. It needs a great deal of work.