Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[dannyo666]

18 hours ago, kiingallen said:

THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN. Done.

 

  Hide contents

HOWWW?!

The benefit's of playing 2d....Its still a joke but i play 2d for this kind of thing as the GE will drive anyone mad at times even though its the best ever visually on 24....Your right to be upset-Im not undermining that at all....

 

18 hours ago, zeza said:

No response at all. NICE

Its scary to go back to an older version(15 for me atm)and see scouting working as it should be...9 years on and somehow scouting does not work on a football manager sim where one of the greatest joys in the game is finding hidden gems?....if scouting is broken how is this a sim anymore?

[zeza]

4 minutos atrás, dannyo666 disse:

The benefit's of playing 2d....Its still a joke but i play 2d for this kind of thing as the GE will drive anyone mad at times even though its the best ever visually on 24....Your right to be upset-Im not undermining that at all....

 

Its scary to go back to an older version(15 for me atm)and see scouting working as it should be...9 years on and somehow scouting does not work on a football manager sim where one of the greatest joys in the game is finding hidden gems?....if scouting is broken how is this a sim anymore?

I've sent the bug report in December, got a couple replies that our scouting wasn't broad enough, patch came out 3 months later and didn't fix the issue. LOL

[NineCloudNine]

37 minutes ago, tropicsafc said:

Loads of people moaning about the match engine since the last update. It was untouched wasn't it?

The update was announced as a data update with some bug/exploit fixes. No mention of any match engine changes. That doesn’t necessarily mean the ME was “untouched” but if anything was changed it wasn’t deemed worthy of noting by SI. So it’s hard to know what people are seeing when they claim it has become “boring” since the update.

Edited March 6 by NineCloudNine

[LolloViola]

After the last update I'm not getting anymore the post-match mail regarding the MVP in which I could directly praise him if it is in my club, anyone else noticed that?

[Rodrigogc]

Is Scouting broken yet ? I have stopped playing so I don't know. What was this patch for then ? How has it justified the waiting ? 

[pw75]

On 01/03/2024 at 12:05, forameuss said:

What do people really want or think is happening?  I think SI are quite open about wanting to be told what's wrong so they can go and fix it, but after that, what do people want?  Constant daily posts of "we're looking"?  With the best will in the world, reporting an issue is probably about 5% of getting it fixed, and in some cases that's generous. Complex-looking things might end up being easy, simple-looking things might end up being too costly or difficult to fix to be viable.  

I'm struggling to think of a way they could communicate without it descending into farce and being ruined by a small minority.  A full roadmap and insight into the nitty-gritty would hold value for me, but I expect that would be ammunition for certain people to chuck coal into the hype-train engine so they can complain later when it doesn't meet their completely made-up expectations.  Timelines would be an absolutely mental thing for them to communicate for obvious reasons.  As a developer myself, I'd far rather they spent their attentions actually working to fix things than feel they needed to coddle people who need them to throw out comments just to show they're not sitting twiddling their thumbs. And those people probably wouldn't be happy then anyway.

I think they are open about bugs because the community does a fair part of their work!  When you look at the bugs reporting forum all you seem to get is 'under review' for months and months.  It may be that is the case but some people go to a fair amount of effort to make the game better and provide a range of data/evidence so a bit of a better system or focus on the feedback might be appreciated by some.  I think this games USP is the community, people are passionate about the game (some too much) and that does bring some unrealistic expectations but the series has been stagnant for a while and adding more 'new features' that don't work well, or 'press conferences' that are as unrealistic as you can possibly get (and better to make up in your head) for me is not the way forward.

Edited March 6 by pw75

[dannyo666]

58 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Is Scouting broken yet ? I have stopped playing so I don't know. What was this patch for then ? How has it justified the waiting ? 

Still not working how it should be post patch....i whipped threw 5 months with the update and saw no significant improvement and shelved 24(again) and if i cannot scout,ive zero interest in the game as i love the finding gems and just the whole ritual of scouting...i cannot understand how scouting is not working properly when this was never as issue before in previous versions...

[Jonthedon26]

I have noticed, for me anyway, that if I scout any position from tactic I tend to get an okay (okay in FM24 terms) amount of scout reports, maybe somewhere between 15-20, but if I pick a specific position from my tactic then I am lucky to get 3 results, even with very broad parameters. It is very very hit and miss.

[kiingallen]

3 hours ago, dannyo666 said:

The benefit's of playing 2d....Its still a joke but i play 2d for this kind of thing as the GE will drive anyone mad at times even though its the best ever visually on 24....Your right to be upset-Im not undermining that at all....

 

Its scary to go back to an older version(15 for me atm)and see scouting working as it should be...9 years on and somehow scouting does not work on a football manager sim where one of the greatest joys in the game is finding hidden gems?....if scouting is broken how is this a sim anymore?

It’s insane that this what you have to do, even after all these years since the graphics engine was Introduced. A bit embarrassing actually. As a consumer, quite frankly offensive. But, as one once  famously said… “this is the history…”

[XaW]

As much as I criticize the press conferences in the game, I just had an example of an excellent question!

For context, I won the tier below last season and managed to get into the promotion playoff this season and the game has acknowledged that and turned it into a question! Good! These are the types of questions we need more of in press conferences! More please! 

[Zoolok42]

22 hours ago, XaW said:

Of course no one can guarantee it, outside SI of course. But the managers in game have a limited set of instructions and setups they use, and SI have run enough tests to know that the AI don't exploit. If a player has created a tactic that creates something that the AI exploits, then I'd say that tactic is not structurally sound in general. I mean, you and I can create tactics that don't work and we will lose to worse teams, but that doesn't mean the AI is exploiting it, that just means you have made a poor tactic. And if that happens, you can change it into something that works. The AI can't change into something outside the parameters the game has set for it, so human managers can sometimes exploit it and the AI will be helpless to stop it.

If you have an example of a "perfectly valid" tactic not working (ie losing consistently to teams that are worse) while using suitable players, etc, then I would report that to SI as a possible bug in the bug tracker. Of course, there is a sort of theoretical discussion of what a "perfectly valid" tactic even is. You might have created something you think is valid, but perhaps you have misunderstood what a role or instruction do, so it isn't valid even if you think so. And that's why the "it's your tactics" thing comes about, since quite frankly a lot of these arguments are followed with a tactic that is very poor. And if you complain about the game while having a lunatic tactic, what else can be said than "it's your tactic"? And I don't mean YOU here, but the general "you" of whoever makes the claim, just to be clear.

This do link back to what was said before about a glossary/manual/tutorial/etc that helps the user understand how things work could hopefully help users create sound tactics and remove part of this, if the user is willing to learn, that is.

I understand what you mean, but I wasn't clear enough again  You can accidentally set up a tactic that is great, but because of an exploit that you are not aware of. However, I also think you can set up a tactic and then have your striker not score goals because of a hidden issue with the match engine that, again, you are not aware exists. I used the word "exploit" for that, as well, but I guess "bug" would be a better term. What I see happen in FM a lot is tactics stopping to be effective after a patch, which is usually attributed to the tactic working because it used an "exploit" in the previous version of the game. What we never do is check if a tactic that didn't work in the past, now suddenly works, because of the changes in the match engine, or at least I can't remember many such cases off the top of my head.

I started playing this game way back in the Championship Manager era, and these things have remained the same (in all honesty, they are a little bit worse with all the added features in the game since those days - I really miss the simple with and without ball instructions). We still do need a glossary, but we specifically need a glossary of what the team (or the one man in charge) means when they describe things in the game. Often you will get a good tactic if you understand what they mean when they say things like "press more often", instead of using your own definition and intuition.

That said, the last two versions (this one and the previous), I only played the demos. The difference between the versions has become miniscule, and there are so many added boilerplate features that the game has become a chore to play. I am also older, so it's harder to not notice and be annoyed by some things  

[whatsupdoc]

This formatting on screens with dividers annoys me! Wish we could centre text. Makes it hard to read if you squeeze a lot in there.

 

[kiwityke1983]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

This formatting on screens with dividers annoys me! Wish we could centre text. Makes it hard to read if you squeeze a lot in there.

 

My number 1 wish for FM 25 is good UI, the UI has been getting progressively worse and less user friendly for 5 years maybe even more than that.

[NineCloudNine]

37 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

My number 1 wish for FM 25 is good UI, the UI has been getting progressively worse and less user friendly for 5 years maybe even more than that.

I swear that if I ever put my fist through my screen playing FM, it won’t be because a player did something boneheaded, or even because I got asked a random question about my U19 striker just after winning the League, it will be because some column has arbitrarily re-sized itself and I cannot work out where the divider is between two columns that appear to be next to each other but in fact are not. 

[Itego]

On 04/03/2024 at 12:01, XaW said:

Personally I still really like this match engine. I see some wonderful goals, and I see my tactical changes actually happen in the match. Got few amazing ones the last few days.

This is a 94th minute winner in a match we didn't deserve to win!

This was an overtime goal by my recently promoted youth player in his debut!

94th minute goal, how did you make your player do that through pass my players ain't even making through balls everything is just boring and predictable 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, Itego said:

94th minute goal, how did you make your player do that through pass my players ain't even making through balls everything is just boring and predictable 

Set up space and movement between lines. If there are no space to run or pass into, then players don't have that option. I posted my tactic earlier in this thread, so look at that to see how I have my team setup to create this.

[akkm]

19 minutes ago, Itego said:

94th minute goal, how did you make your player do that through pass my players ain't even making through balls everything is just boring and predictable 

Its a match engine issue this year sadly. Sure...there are a few still in there but movement, decision making, ability to operate in tight spaces and weighting of passes is off overall. Needs work in the match engine team

[NineCloudNine]

3 minutes ago, akkm said:

Its a match engine issue this year sadly. Sure...there are a few still in there but movement, decision making, ability to operate in tight spaces and weighting of passes is off overall. Needs work in the match engine team

I don’t have any of those problems. 

Edited March 7 by NineCloudNine

[Itego]

31 minutes ago, XaW said:

Set up space and movement between lines. If there are no space to run or pass into, then players don't have that option. I posted my tactic earlier in this thread, so look at that to see how I have my team setup to create this.

Can you pls repost it, I couldn't find it... Plss how do I create space and movement because my AF ain't scoring anything again and the person is kylian mbappe for crying out loud in fm23 one season alone he scored 92 goals overall for me please what's going on, is it my tactics or is it the ME because my players ain't passing through balls like how they used to in fm23 now in fm24 its just straight passes most times they will decide to even pass it wide and the rare occasions they give a through pass to my AF he is offside likeee is this just happening to me because I don't understand what's going on at this point @XaW

Edited March 7 by Itego

[Itego]

17 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I don’t have any of those problems. 

How did you fix it? Plsss I need help

[akkm]

27 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I don’t have any of those problems. 

And that's awesome you don't and can enjoy it as it plays out how you expect it 😊. 

But those issues are still there unfortunately 😔 

I should explain I mean to extend it to overall creativity and threaded/guiled passes as well as through balls to be fair

[NineCloudNine]

3 minutes ago, Itego said:

How did you fix it? Plsss I need help

Post your tactic in the tactics forum and ask for advice. 

[akkm]

15 minutes ago, Itego said:

How did you fix it? Plsss I need help

You can't. It's a match engine thing overall. Sure...certain levers can be tweaked to mitigate it to a small extent and give you some intermittent joy but the patterns will ultimately repeat as you've seen yourself. 

I saw you mention this year versus last and last year relied on a lot of passes through the air to alleviate that element of things for those balls you want to see but that was an unrealistic element of the simulation in itself. This year they addressed the balls through the air but, unfortunately, without addressing the creativity required elsewhere to balance it out.

Worth checking @XaWto see what his tactics can do giving you a little uplift...his inputs are useful sometimes but I'd say manage your expectations on what it will deliver as overall it's a fault in the match engine simulation

[Iakovenko]

Messi did his achilles playing for me and was out for the best part of 6 months. A week after being back from that he's out again with blisters. If that's a knock on effect from not having ran for 6 months then that's brilliant,  if it's just coincidence then it's still pretty funny

[RDF Tactics]

1 hour ago, Itego said:

Can you pls repost it, I couldn't find it... Plss how do I create space and movement because my AF ain't scoring anything again and the person is kylian mbappe for crying out loud in fm23 one season alone he scored 92 goals overall for me please what's going on, is it my tactics or is it the ME because my players ain't passing through balls like how they used to in fm23 now in fm24 its just straight passes most times they will decide to even pass it wide and the rare occasions they give a through pass to my AF he is offside likeee is this just happening to me because I don't understand what's going on at this point @XaW

Best to post your tactic either in the tactic forum for an actual discussion or maybe here for quick-fire replies (this thread is for feedback though so maybe not best received).

I'm currently creating a Man City tactic and whether I try Haaland as a PFa, AF or P, he just bags goals because the system makes sure he's the main threat, created space for him and plenty of supply.

This is the tactic.

His supply is both wingers, CM on support and Regista in DM. That's 4 creators.

CMa can, he has take more risks with passing but on attack, is there to be an added scoring threat so it's not just one player, but the main scoring threat has plenty of supply.

Making sure he has space, only one other player is moving into the channels (my CMs). So if LCM takes up one channel, Haaland can take up the other. Maybe limited channel space if two players are attempting to attack one channel. Or if they rotate with moving into a channel, would mean my ST won't always be moving into a channel if he's "channel sharing".

Wingers look to always open the channels by staying wide (attracting opposition FBs) - again, making more space for the striker to move and space exploit.

[RDF Tactics]

And more often we can create a chance like this (my favourite sort of goal).

Foden originally attacking the channel forced Coleman to engage. Left my Left Winger free on the left. Nice through ball. Then LW cut back to my ST.

Of course, consider I am Man City (creating a City tactic). For these sort of chances, we don't exactly need a top-class striker. Doku takes advantage of this also because of his pace. Alverez is a different profile, with his "comes deep to get ball" influencing his movement.

Haaland being a top striker means he also scores many different types of goals. But the system allows someone like Doku to also take advantage.

[GunmaN1905]

Since it's been asked for people to deliver on consctructive criticism with actual stats, I'm here to ask for some feedback/explanation about why some of the Inter player stats are the way they are.

Wall of text in spoiler, with real player stats provided.

Spoiler

Stamina and work rate.
Attributes that I don't think are even arbitrary because with such advanced metrics these days and data available for distance covered, walk/run/sprint states combined with fixture congestion and minutes played make it really easy to make fair representations of players.

Current season stats:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/hakan-calhanoglu/leistungsdaten/spieler/126414
https://www.transfermarkt.com/henrikh-mkhitaryan/leistungsdaten/spieler/55735
https://www.transfermarkt.com/nicolo-barella/leistungsdaten/spieler/255942

Serie A has amazing PDFs with lots of stats and distance covered stats are on 7th page.
Inter matches:
https://www.legaseriea.it/en/team/inter/calendario
From there you just go to a match and download PDF report.

Here's a few from recent derby games against Roma and Juventus.
https://img.legaseriea.it/vimages/65c8a666/2023-24_A_UNICO_UNI_24_ROMINT_ENG.pdf
https://img.legaseriea.it/vimages/65c0a8b5/2023-24_A_UNICO_UNI_23_INTJUV_ENG.pdf

 
You won't find a single game against good opposition with Inter midfielder that played 90 minutes under 11 kilometers, often above 12km.
Then you cross-check it with the amount of games Calhanoglu/Barella/Mkhitaryan played over the last year with very little rest and it's obvious why those low stats for Calhanoglu are unfair.
Check any report against good opposition from the link I provided and find the distance covered in the report, it's always going to be more or less the same. I don't want to spam a dozen screenshots and links.

From those match reports you can see that Calhanoglu has the lowest percentage of walked distance due to the nature of his role.
Barella with very similar distance covered stats has 18 work rate and 17 stamina in FM24. Which is more or less spot on. These stats happened after years of being stuck at 14 stamina for some reason, even though he had 20 work rate last year.

Calhanoglu has 13 stamina and 11 work rate. I fail to see the logic in that. His other defensive attributes collapse the entire Inter setup in the game and make the formation unplayable if you want to replicate Inzaghi's system. 10-11 for marking, aggression, bravery, work rate and strength. 12 for positioning, balance and determination.
All those attributes were correct three years ago, but he's a completely changed player since he joined Inter. It didn't happen overnight, but to never update those stats over the past three years even though he more or less saved Inter's season by changing to an even deeper role last year and improving even more this season? He's the most defensive midfielder on the team that conceded the least goals and chances out of any European top league and in FM you can't use him in that role, more or less.
Mkhitaryan is also somewhat an issue. He is leading the entire squad for minutes played this season and he's still at 12 work rate, despite his other attributes being updated and him finally getting 15 stamina.

The thing that is puzzling is how can their work rate vary from 11 to 18 and stamina from 13 to 17 if they run the same distance and play the same minutes?

Some other stats are obviously way more difficult to evaluate and I'm not even cherry picking on individual attributes, but a handful of them strung together that make players different to what they are in real world.
Following part of the post isn't about exact science, but more about eye test, unlike stamina and work rate bit.

I don't understand how Barella's his first touch, passing and technique still at 14/15. He's one of the best midfielders in the world without any question and in almost every game he makes ridiculous highlight plays when it comes to first touch and tight-space dribbling. I know short players with high agility have higher ball control than their stats, but then he's got 14 agility? I don't understand.
Tight space dribbling video in spoiler, annoying music warning:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtqEthHeVgw

On the other hand, he's got 16  tackling, 20 aggression and 17 bravery. He works his ass off, but those stats are way too high, he's not a defensive stalwart. Solid, but anything over 14 for defensive stats is generous. That aggression+tackling player trait makes him look like a Gattuso.

Dimarco suffers from similar issue, I already pointed this out months ago and this season has proven it even more. 12 for stamina for example is spot on because he's always gassed after 60 minutes, but top tier mental defensive stats are wishful thinking. He'd be a liability in traditional back four. 14 positioning for him is way too generous. But he still has only 11 dribbling for some reason and 15 passing.

Bastoni's attributes make two previously mentioned players even stranger. Yes, he's the best CB in the world at actually running with the ball and yes I know that shorter players will have better ball control with same attributes, but Bastoni has better quickness physicals than those two. Gracious for a 190cm CB, but compared with 20cm shorter wizards with the ball? I'd just like some feedback about how these actually work if I'm in the wrong.

De Vrij - composure, concentration, decisions in 12-13 range, with 14 positioning makes him a completely different player because he's all about intelligent decisions and positioning to make up for his lack of speed and strength. Then I look at Dimarco's 15-16 for composure/concentration/decisions and I'm completely lost.

While Lautaro is having a godly season, pace and acceleration at 16 are obviously too much, he's not that quick. He's faster than Bastoni, but then the entire squad gets inflated pace stats if Lautaro's 16 is the baseline.
In the end, I'd just like some feedback on these questions. Maybe I'm completely wrong about these technical/mental stats if there's some hidden stuff added to the formula, but the work rate and stamina thing is something that I don't understand.
This is just Inter because I watch every single minute, but there are also a lot of other Serie A players with issues, but since I haven't seen everything I don't want to get ahead of myself.

TL;DR
Three players playing the same position, playing more or less the same minutes and covering the same distance with similar walk/run/sprint metrics and yet work rate varies between 11 and 18, with stamina varying between 13 and 17.

 

[RDF Tactics]

I believe this is the pass some are saying is non-existent? I see my team do it, at least attempt it, pretty often.

Now, central play can do with some improvement, but it's always better to show your feedback rather than just say it.

This pass does happen in FM. The weight of this particular pass was spot on. The movement from Haaland (spinning and making the run as soon as KDB pulls the trigger), almost everything about this was perfect timing.

[XaW]

2 hours ago, Itego said:

Can you pls repost it, I couldn't find it... Plss how do I create space and movement because my AF ain't scoring anything again and the person is kylian mbappe for crying out loud in fm23 one season alone he scored 92 goals overall for me please what's going on, is it my tactics or is it the ME because my players ain't passing through balls like how they used to in fm23 now in fm24 its just straight passes most times they will decide to even pass it wide and the rare occasions they give a through pass to my AF he is offside likeee is this just happening to me because I don't understand what's going on at this point @XaW

This is the starting point for every match, but I do make changes based on what happens in each match. This tactic focus on getting the striker to score most goals, but he also will act as an outlet at times, so I encourage one who can also hold up the ball at times, so I would recommend one who has that skill set. Not sure if Mbappe is the best one for it, but I've never used him in my tactic, so I can't say for sure. I have had luck with a short guy, but he had a high strength attribute too so he could shrug off challenges. IF and CM-A will be the main help around the striker while the winger will also pop up with some goals at times. The left back is also very important to get to work as he needs to bomb forward and I try to get all my left back to learn "get forward whenever possible. The DM helps in build up, but if you are a dominant side, and your centre backs can hold their own on the ball, he can be turned into a Regista to be a playmaker pivot higher up. I've toyed with a Carrilero instead of a BWM, but so far I think the BWM edges it.

1 hour ago, akkm said:

You can't. It's a match engine thing overall. Sure...certain levers can be tweaked to mitigate it to a small extent and give you some intermittent joy but the patterns will ultimately repeat as you've seen yourself. 

I saw you mention this year versus last and last year relied on a lot of passes through the air to alleviate that element of things for those balls you want to see but that was an unrealistic element of the simulation in itself. This year they addressed the balls through the air but, unfortunately, without addressing the creativity required elsewhere to balance it out.

Worth checking @XaWto see what his tactics can do giving you a little uplift...his inputs are useful sometimes but I'd say manage your expectations on what it will deliver as overall it's a fault in the match engine simulation

I see a lot of great plays and I also think the matches reflect the different things I can do. Personally I enjoy this version more than I have done in years, but each to their own.

30 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Best to post your tactic either in the tactic forum for an actual discussion or maybe here for quick-fire replies (this thread is for feedback though so maybe not best received).

I'm currently creating a Man City tactic and whether I try Haaland as a PFa, AF or P, he just bags goals because the system makes sure he's the main threat, created space for him and plenty of supply.

This is the tactic.

His supply is both wingers, CM on support and Regista in DM. That's 4 creators.

CMa can, he has take more risks with passing but on attack, is there to be an added scoring threat so it's not just one player, but the main scoring threat has plenty of supply.

Making sure he has space, only one other player is moving into the channels (my CMs). So if LCM takes up one channel, Haaland can take up the other. Maybe limited channel space if two players are attempting to attack one channel. Or if they rotate with moving into a channel, would mean my ST won't always be moving into a channel if he's "channel sharing".

Wingers look to always open the channels by staying wide (attracting opposition FBs) - again, making more space for the striker to move and space exploit.

The midfield and up are quit similar to mine. The CM-A is an excellent role and he breaks lines so good if you have a good decision maker there. How do your Regista and Libero work together? A dual playmaker pivot style?

[themadsheep2001]

42 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Best to post your tactic either in the tactic forum for an actual discussion or maybe here for quick-fire replies (this thread is for feedback though so maybe not best received).

I'm currently creating a Man City tactic and whether I try Haaland as a PFa, AF or P, he just bags goals because the system makes sure he's the main threat, created space for him and plenty of supply.

This is the tactic.

His supply is both wingers, CM on support and Regista in DM. That's 4 creators.

CMa can, he has take more risks with passing but on attack, is there to be an added scoring threat so it's not just one player, but the main scoring threat has plenty of supply.

Making sure he has space, only one other player is moving into the channels (my CMs). So if LCM takes up one channel, Haaland can take up the other. Maybe limited channel space if two players are attempting to attack one channel. Or if they rotate with moving into a channel, would mean my ST won't always be moving into a channel if he's "channel sharing".

Wingers look to always open the channels by staying wide (attracting opposition FBs) - again, making more space for the striker to move and space exploit.

Haha i have something very similar except i havent used a libero, use two BPs. Interested to hear your Libero thoughts

[RDF Tactics]

4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Since it's been asked for people to deliver on consctructive criticism with actual stats, I'm here to ask for some feedback/explanation about why some of the Inter player stats are the way they are.

Wall of text in spoiler, with real player stats provided.

  Reveal hidden contents

Stamina and work rate.
Attributes that I don't think are even arbitrary because with such advanced metrics these days and data available for distance covered, walk/run/sprint states combined with fixture congestion and minutes played make it really easy to make fair representations of players.

Current season stats:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/hakan-calhanoglu/leistungsdaten/spieler/126414
https://www.transfermarkt.com/henrikh-mkhitaryan/leistungsdaten/spieler/55735
https://www.transfermarkt.com/nicolo-barella/leistungsdaten/spieler/255942

Serie A has amazing PDFs with lots of stats and distance covered stats are on 7th page.
Inter matches:
https://www.legaseriea.it/en/team/inter/calendario
From there you just go to a match and download PDF report.

Here's a few from recent derby games against Roma and Juventus.
https://img.legaseriea.it/vimages/65c8a666/2023-24_A_UNICO_UNI_24_ROMINT_ENG.pdf
https://img.legaseriea.it/vimages/65c0a8b5/2023-24_A_UNICO_UNI_23_INTJUV_ENG.pdf

 
You won't find a single game against good opposition with Inter midfielder that played 90 minutes under 11 kilometers, often above 12km.
Then you cross-check it with the amount of games Calhanoglu/Barella/Mkhitaryan played over the last year with very little rest and it's obvious why those low stats for Calhanoglu are unfair.
Check any report against good opposition from the link I provided and find the distance covered in the report, it's always going to be more or less the same. I don't want to spam a dozen screenshots and links.

From those match reports you can see that Calhanoglu has the lowest percentage of walked distance due to the nature of his role.
Barella with very similar distance covered stats has 18 work rate and 17 stamina in FM24. Which is more or less spot on. These stats happened after years of being stuck at 14 stamina for some reason, even though he had 20 work rate last year.

Calhanoglu has 13 stamina and 11 work rate. I fail to see the logic in that. His other defensive attributes collapse the entire Inter setup in the game and make the formation unplayable if you want to replicate Inzaghi's system. 10-11 for marking, aggression, bravery, work rate and strength. 12 for positioning, balance and determination.
All those attributes were correct three years ago, but he's a completely changed player since he joined Inter. It didn't happen overnight, but to never update those stats over the past three years even though he more or less saved Inter's season by changing to an even deeper role last year and improving even more this season? He's the most defensive midfielder on the team that conceded the least goals and chances out of any European top league and in FM you can't use him in that role, more or less.
Mkhitaryan is also somewhat an issue. He is leading the entire squad for minutes played this season and he's still at 12 work rate, despite his other attributes being updated and him finally getting 15 stamina.

The thing that is puzzling is how can their work rate vary from 11 to 18 and stamina from 13 to 17 if they run the same distance and play the same minutes?

Some other stats are obviously way more difficult to evaluate and I'm not even cherry picking on individual attributes, but a handful of them strung together that make players different to what they are in real world.
Following part of the post isn't about exact science, but more about eye test, unlike stamina and work rate bit.

I don't understand how Barella's his first touch, passing and technique still at 14/15. He's one of the best midfielders in the world without any question and in almost every game he makes ridiculous highlight plays when it comes to first touch and tight-space dribbling. I know short players with high agility have higher ball control than their stats, but then he's got 14 agility? I don't understand.
Tight space dribbling video in spoiler, annoying music warning:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtqEthHeVgw

On the other hand, he's got 16  tackling, 20 aggression and 17 bravery. He works his ass off, but those stats are way too high, he's not a defensive stalwart. Solid, but anything over 14 for defensive stats is generous. That aggression+tackling player trait makes him look like a Gattuso.

Dimarco suffers from similar issue, I already pointed this out months ago and this season has proven it even more. 12 for stamina for example is spot on because he's always gassed after 60 minutes, but top tier mental defensive stats are wishful thinking. He'd be a liability in traditional back four. 14 positioning for him is way too generous. But he still has only 11 dribbling for some reason and 15 passing.

Bastoni's attributes make two previously mentioned players even stranger. Yes, he's the best CB in the world at actually running with the ball and yes I know that shorter players will have better ball control with same attributes, but Bastoni has better quickness physicals than those two. Gracious for a 190cm CB, but compared with 20cm shorter wizards with the ball? I'd just like some feedback about how these actually work if I'm in the wrong.

De Vrij - composure, concentration, decisions in 12-13 range, with 14 positioning makes him a completely different player because he's all about intelligent decisions and positioning to make up for his lack of speed and strength. Then I look at Dimarco's 15-16 for composure/concentration/decisions and I'm completely lost.

While Lautaro is having a godly season, pace and acceleration at 16 are obviously too much, he's not that quick. He's faster than Bastoni, but then the entire squad gets inflated pace stats if Lautaro's 16 is the baseline.
In the end, I'd just like some feedback on these questions. Maybe I'm completely wrong about these technical/mental stats if there's some hidden stuff added to the formula, but the work rate and stamina thing is something that I don't understand.
This is just Inter because I watch every single minute, but there are also a lot of other Serie A players with issues, but since I haven't seen everything I don't want to get ahead of myself.

TL;DR
Three players playing the same position, playing more or less the same minutes and covering the same distance with similar walk/run/sprint metrics and yet work rate varies between 11 and 18, with stamina varying between 13 and 17.

 

Work Rate isn't EVERYTHING when it comes to covering distance. If your tactic requires a lot of running, teamwork also plays an important role.

Hakan teamwork is 17. Mkhi has teamwork 15. Barella 17.

What happens when we put "how are they sprinting/jogging?" into context. Example, are they running around pressing and closing. Or, does their tactical role require plenty of movement? For example, Hakan IRL in possession roams around which is likely also helping with high numbers.

The fact Hakan has high running numbers but sprints drop compared to Mhki and Barella can indicate Hakan runs a lot when roaming. Barella we know works hard pressing and closing down which would be sprinting.

Just like Ozil at Arsenal. Branded lazy. But often had the highest KM in a game. Is that him working hard for the team or is that him drifting around a lot as we know he did?

Maybe Inter players can do with some upgrades. But you have to be wary of some of these attributes. You don't want to be making Hakan a great defensive player.

[RDF Tactics]

5 minutes ago, XaW said:

The midfield and up are quit similar to mine. The CM-A is an excellent role and he breaks lines so good if you have a good decision maker there. How do your Regista and Libero work together? A dual playmaker pivot style?

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Haha i have something very similar except i havent used a libero, use two BPs. Interested to hear your Libero thoughts

The Libero + Regista combo isn't one I'm most comfortable with haha the Regista's roaming makes build-up a bit too unpredictable (as in sometimes he's not taking up the position I want).

For a lot of away games, I prefer to use a DM instead and get a more solid 3-2 set-up. One reason I wanted to use a Regista was so I could try and get some switches of play. Most of the time he's good at retaining, but he'll have one or two games where he's forcing the risky pass and the pass % drops into the 70%'s. 

In this away game against Chelsea, I decided to be brave (Chelsea are on poor form), using a Regista away from home I do like his attempts with the longer passes wide. But with my aggressive mentality, think he's looking for it too often.

Spoiler

 

 

[GunmaN1905]

17 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Work Rate isn't EVERYTHING when it comes to covering distance. If your tactic requires a lot of running, teamwork also plays an important role.

Interesting, so work rate above let's say 15 means that player will go to extra distance (pun intended) and do more even when tactical setup doesn't require it to?

Another long post:

Spoiler

 

Quote

What happens when we put "how are they sprinting/jogging?" into context. Example, are they running around pressing and closing. Or, does their tactical role require plenty of movement? For example, Hakan IRL in possession roams around which is likely also helping with high numbers.

He obviously roams while seeking to receive a pass, but he's literally in the middle of formation while defending and can't be lazy because it would all collapse.

Quote

The fact Hakan has high running numbers but sprints drop compared to Mhki and Barella can indicate Hakan runs a lot when roaming. Barella we know works hard pressing and closing down which would be sprinting.

He's got lower sprints because those two attack the space in possession way more and one of them more or less becomes a third forward in the build up.

Quote

Maybe Inter players can do with some upgrades.

As I wrote for other players, noone really needs a big upgrade other than Hakan's defense, but it just feels wrong for Dimarco to be an elite defender when he's in fact a liability.
For example, his defensive stats (other than obviously height) are amazing and he could easily pass for wide CB in the game. But when Inzaghi tried to do it at the beginning of last season, it was more or less a disaster.
Or go check out some Italy games where he plays in a back four, it doesn't look great.
He's more or less a left-footed TAA.

Quote

But you have to be wary of some of these attributes. You don't want to be making Hakan a great defensive player.

That's the thing, I already wrote that Barella being an elite on defensive end is unrealistic. He looks like Kante in the game.

These are defensive stats for Inter's three midfielder on fbref.

One of them is elite defensively for a CM in FM24, other two are subpar.
Guess which one is Barella?

Spoiler

Middle one.
It's Hakan-Barella-Mkhitaryan.

And this is Douglas Luiz, who's the best comparison when you open Hakan's profile.

He's got 14-15 across the board for defensive stats.

Also, since you seem knowledgeable about how attributes work, what about pace?
I know agility equals better ball control etc, but Bastoni having the same pace as Barella and Dimarco is strange. And same agility.

My point would be that I'm not asking for Hakan to turn into Xabi Alonso, but 13-14 across the board with 15 stamina would be fair.
Btw, against Genoa Asllani played in his role. Second half was the worst half Inter played in months, midfield had a glaring hole when Genoa attacked.
And Asllani's defensive stats in game are more or less better than Hakan's. Making things even more puzzling.

 

Edited March 7 by GunmaN1905

[RDF Tactics]

26 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Since it's been asked for people to deliver on consctructive criticism with actual stats, I'm here to ask for some feedback/explanation about why some of the Inter player stats are the way they are.

Wall of text in spoiler, with real player stats provided.

  Reveal hidden contents

Stamina and work rate.
Attributes that I don't think are even arbitrary because with such advanced metrics these days and data available for distance covered, walk/run/sprint states combined with fixture congestion and minutes played make it really easy to make fair representations of players.

Current season stats:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/hakan-calhanoglu/leistungsdaten/spieler/126414
https://www.transfermarkt.com/henrikh-mkhitaryan/leistungsdaten/spieler/55735
https://www.transfermarkt.com/nicolo-barella/leistungsdaten/spieler/255942

Serie A has amazing PDFs with lots of stats and distance covered stats are on 7th page.
Inter matches:
https://www.legaseriea.it/en/team/inter/calendario
From there you just go to a match and download PDF report.

Here's a few from recent derby games against Roma and Juventus.
https://img.legaseriea.it/vimages/65c8a666/2023-24_A_UNICO_UNI_24_ROMINT_ENG.pdf
https://img.legaseriea.it/vimages/65c0a8b5/2023-24_A_UNICO_UNI_23_INTJUV_ENG.pdf

 
You won't find a single game against good opposition with Inter midfielder that played 90 minutes under 11 kilometers, often above 12km.
Then you cross-check it with the amount of games Calhanoglu/Barella/Mkhitaryan played over the last year with very little rest and it's obvious why those low stats for Calhanoglu are unfair.
Check any report against good opposition from the link I provided and find the distance covered in the report, it's always going to be more or less the same. I don't want to spam a dozen screenshots and links.

From those match reports you can see that Calhanoglu has the lowest percentage of walked distance due to the nature of his role.
Barella with very similar distance covered stats has 18 work rate and 17 stamina in FM24. Which is more or less spot on. These stats happened after years of being stuck at 14 stamina for some reason, even though he had 20 work rate last year.

Calhanoglu has 13 stamina and 11 work rate. I fail to see the logic in that. His other defensive attributes collapse the entire Inter setup in the game and make the formation unplayable if you want to replicate Inzaghi's system. 10-11 for marking, aggression, bravery, work rate and strength. 12 for positioning, balance and determination.
All those attributes were correct three years ago, but he's a completely changed player since he joined Inter. It didn't happen overnight, but to never update those stats over the past three years even though he more or less saved Inter's season by changing to an even deeper role last year and improving even more this season? He's the most defensive midfielder on the team that conceded the least goals and chances out of any European top league and in FM you can't use him in that role, more or less.
Mkhitaryan is also somewhat an issue. He is leading the entire squad for minutes played this season and he's still at 12 work rate, despite his other attributes being updated and him finally getting 15 stamina.

The thing that is puzzling is how can their work rate vary from 11 to 18 and stamina from 13 to 17 if they run the same distance and play the same minutes?

Some other stats are obviously way more difficult to evaluate and I'm not even cherry picking on individual attributes, but a handful of them strung together that make players different to what they are in real world.
Following part of the post isn't about exact science, but more about eye test, unlike stamina and work rate bit.

I don't understand how Barella's his first touch, passing and technique still at 14/15. He's one of the best midfielders in the world without any question and in almost every game he makes ridiculous highlight plays when it comes to first touch and tight-space dribbling. I know short players with high agility have higher ball control than their stats, but then he's got 14 agility? I don't understand.
Tight space dribbling video in spoiler, annoying music warning:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtqEthHeVgw

On the other hand, he's got 16  tackling, 20 aggression and 17 bravery. He works his ass off, but those stats are way too high, he's not a defensive stalwart. Solid, but anything over 14 for defensive stats is generous. That aggression+tackling player trait makes him look like a Gattuso.

Dimarco suffers from similar issue, I already pointed this out months ago and this season has proven it even more. 12 for stamina for example is spot on because he's always gassed after 60 minutes, but top tier mental defensive stats are wishful thinking. He'd be a liability in traditional back four. 14 positioning for him is way too generous. But he still has only 11 dribbling for some reason and 15 passing.

Bastoni's attributes make two previously mentioned players even stranger. Yes, he's the best CB in the world at actually running with the ball and yes I know that shorter players will have better ball control with same attributes, but Bastoni has better quickness physicals than those two. Gracious for a 190cm CB, but compared with 20cm shorter wizards with the ball? I'd just like some feedback about how these actually work if I'm in the wrong.

De Vrij - composure, concentration, decisions in 12-13 range, with 14 positioning makes him a completely different player because he's all about intelligent decisions and positioning to make up for his lack of speed and strength. Then I look at Dimarco's 15-16 for composure/concentration/decisions and I'm completely lost.

While Lautaro is having a godly season, pace and acceleration at 16 are obviously too much, he's not that quick. He's faster than Bastoni, but then the entire squad gets inflated pace stats if Lautaro's 16 is the baseline.
In the end, I'd just like some feedback on these questions. Maybe I'm completely wrong about these technical/mental stats if there's some hidden stuff added to the formula, but the work rate and stamina thing is something that I don't understand.
This is just Inter because I watch every single minute, but there are also a lot of other Serie A players with issues, but since I haven't seen everything I don't want to get ahead of myself.

TL;DR
Three players playing the same position, playing more or less the same minutes and covering the same distance with similar walk/run/sprint metrics and yet work rate varies between 11 and 18, with stamina varying between 13 and 17.

 

Data was as big of a thing then so forgive the table I was able to find.

At the time, it was a conversation among Arsenal fans. Some dislike Ozil, though he was lazy. Those who defended him would often mention how much distance he covers.

Ozil covering much ground through roaming. He wasn’t often busting his gut, going above and beyond to get into the box and track back.

but due to his roaming, he often would cover a lot of ground. I wouldn’t give Ozil a high work rate because of that.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, RDF Tactics said:

but due to his roaming, he often would cover a lot of ground. I wouldn’t give Ozil a high work rate because of that.

Ozil was playing #10 in 4231.
Hakan is playing #6 in 352.

Since both him and Mkhitaryan are bad on defense in FM24, how would you explain this?

Youtubers don't like their defense, but in this video you've got some defensive action, especially at the end.

Spoiler

 

[RDF Tactics]

4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Interesting, so work rate above let's say 15 means that player will go to extra distance (pun intended) and do more even when tactical setup doesn't require it to?

Another long post:

  Hide contents

 

He obviously roams while seeking to receive a pass, but he's literally in the middle of formation while defending and can't be lazy because it would all collapse.

He's got lower sprints because those two attack the space in possession way more and one of them more or less becomes a third forward in the build up.

As I wrote for other players, noone really needs a big upgrade other than Hakan's defense, but it just feels wrong for Dimarco to be an elite defender when he's in fact a liability.
For example, his defensive stats (other than obviously height) are amazing and he could easily pass for wide CB in the game. But when Inzaghi tried to do it at the beginning of last season, it was more or less a disaster.
Or go check out some Italy games where he plays in a back four, it doesn't look great.
He's more or less a left-footed TAA.

That's the thing, I already wrote that Barella being an elite on defensive end is unrealistic. He looks like Kante in the game.

These are defensive stats for Inter's three midfielder on fbref.

One of them is elite defensively for a CM in FM24, other two are subpar.
Guess which one is Barella?

  Reveal hidden contents

Middle one.
It's Hakan-Barella-Mkhitaryan.

And this is Douglas Luiz, who's the best comparison when you open Hakan's profile.

He's got 14-15 across the board for defensive stats.

Also, since you seem knowledgeable about how attributes work, what about Pace?
I know agility equals better ball control etc, but Bastoni having the same pace as Barella and Dimarco is strange. And same agility.

My point would be that I'm not asking for Hakan to turn into Xabi Alonso, but 13-14 across the board with 15 stamina would be fair.
Btw, against Genoa Asllani played in his role. Second half was the worst half Inter played in months, midfield had a glaring hole when Genoa attacked.
And Asllani's defensive stats in game are more or less better than Hakan's. Making things even more puzzling.

 

I do watch Inter (not every week) and though he stays central when defending, it’s indeed Barella who often makes up a lot of ground so Hakan doesn’t actually do much defending (tackling, tracking runners etc). Hakan isn’t lazy IRL and 11 for work rate is average in FM. 
 

Those two also have more sprints from counter pressing, pressing wide areas and tracking back to collapse back into a 532.

When it comes to researchers and attributes, I’m not 100% sure how they work it out to be honest.

Looking at Hakans technical ability, that already makes him a really good player. If FM started added 13-14s across the board, it would turn him into the best player. Example, Passing (18), Vision (17), Technique (16), and composure (17). Thats elite passing.

his anticipation on 14 would allow him to effectively read the game, just not on an elite level. Positioning 12 and tackling 13, you won’t get passed him easily but still, can be in good positions to make an effective tackle. Anything more, he’s becoming an elite player.

in one of the images you posted, it did say Bastoni was 3rd with average speed in sprints. Maybe Bastoni is faster than looks which is often the case in football. It’s often some players don’t have to hit their max speed or have quick acceleration to get to their max speed.

[RDF Tactics]

44 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

I believe this is the pass some are saying is non-existent? I see my team do it, at least attempt it, pretty often.

Now, central play can do with some improvement, but it's always better to show your feedback rather than just say it.

This pass does happen in FM. The weight of this particular pass was spot on. The movement from Haaland (spinning and making the run as soon as KDB pulls the trigger), almost everything about this was perfect timing.

@akkm @Itego In the same game, we replicated the goal lol.

Central through ball onto the striker. KDB attracts Colwill, leaving the channel empty. Now space for the through ball. The right players exploiting and taking advantage.

Personally, the central through balls isn't a problem. There can be an issue in setups stopping them from being effective. I don't even have pass into space on, it' not needed because I don't want us playing that pass each and every time. THAT could then become an issue. Not creating space for the though ball to complete it. Your players could well be attempting through balls but without space, it can be intercepted.

[themadsheep2001]

33 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

The Libero + Regista combo isn't one I'm most comfortable with haha the Regista's roaming makes build-up a bit too unpredictable (as in sometimes he's not taking up the position I want).

For a lot of away games, I prefer to use a DM instead and get a more solid 3-2 set-up. One reason I wanted to use a Regista was so I could try and get some switches of play. Most of the time he's good at retaining, but he'll have one or two games where he's forcing the risky pass and the pass % drops into the 70%'s. 

In this away game against Chelsea, I decided to be brave (Chelsea are on poor form), using a Regista away from home I do like his attempts with the longer passes wide. But with my aggressive mentality, think he's looking for it too often.

  Hide contents

 

 

Have you tried a DM support as opposed to the regista?

[GunmaN1905]

4 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

I do watch Inter (not every week) and though he stays central when defending, it’s indeed Barella who often makes up a lot of ground so Hakan doesn’t actually do much defending (tackling, tracking runners etc). Hakan isn’t lazy IRL and 11 for work rate is average in FM.

Barella is tasked with being the third player to press opposing CBs when Inter is against 3 man defense, like for eexample against Atletico.
He also makes up ground upon lost possession because Dumfries (RWB) is more or less a winger while attacking and can't physically recover fast enough upon lost ball.

Quote

Looking at Hakans technical ability, that already makes him a really good player. If FM started added 13-14s across the board, it would turn him into the best player. Example, Passing (18), Vision (17), Technique (16), and composure (17). Thats elite passing.

Well, he's been an elite passer his entire career.
For example, having just 10 dribbling is fair because he's not a dribbler and he's not agile, either.
I'd even say 16 free kicks is high if we talk direct shooting because he hasn't scored a single one in three years.
He's got more goals from corners (19).

Quote

his anticipation on 14 would allow him to effectively read the game, just not on an elite level. Positioning 12 and tackling 13, you won’t get passed him easily but still, can be in good positions to make an effective tackle. Anything more, he’s becoming an elite player.

That's why I said those are arbitrary and I can understand the points you're making.
Still, you didn't mention 13 stamina.
If he's playing 90 minutes twice per week and having highest distance covered, then we can talk about his work rate, but his "quality" of running is irrelevant if he in fact does run 12km often.

Quote

 

in one of the images you posted, it did say Bastoni was 3rd with average speed in sprints. Maybe Bastoni is faster than looks which is often the case in football. It’s often some players don’t have to hit their max speed or have quick acceleration to get to their max speed.

 

My bad, should've said quickness, because Bastoni has same acceleration and agility as Barella/Dimarco.
As you said, taller players can't turn as fast or reach top speed that quickly, but they can have high top speed.

Good feedback, anyhow.

[RDF Tactics]

And there you are. Hat-trick for my World Class striker. Hat-trick of assists from KDB. Hat-trick of central through-ball assists.

Rinse and repeat. KDB picks up dangerous pocked forcing CB to engage. We then exploit.

Because this is a feedback page  my feedback is with the right set up and players, central play can be devastating. Personally, I'd like to see an improvement with ball retention in the central areas of the final 3rd. Allowing for more methodical chance creation. But attacking central areas is certainly a thing in FM24.

[WelshMourinho]

Is there a fix of sorts for ensuring the squad planner doesn't just jumble up the order of your players after you've spent time putting them in the correct order?

Frustrating to see the 4* striker be sent to the bottom of the pile for whatever reason.

[southside]

Yet again the travelling a squad has to do is all over the place. Seemed as if it was fixed, dont know how many times ive had to say it last few years. I play villa away as man utd and travel the day before the game(which is what happens IRL) then play the game and stay the night of the game in birmingham, which most certainly DOESNT happen IRL. Travel back to manchester on the sunday and then travel to istanbul on the monday to play galatasaray in the champions league. This is a complete nonsense and would never happen in a million years. Its so immersion breaking and things like this are what really annoys me about the game now

[Itego]

3 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

@akkm @Itego In the same game, we replicated the goal lol.

Central through ball onto the striker. KDB attracts Colwill, leaving the channel empty. Now space for the through ball. The right players exploiting and taking advantage.

Personally, the central through balls isn't a problem. There can be an issue in setups stopping them from being effective. I don't even have pass into space on, it' not needed because I don't want us playing that pass each and every time. THAT could then become an issue. Not creating space for the though ball to complete it. Your players could well be attempting through balls but without space, it can be intercepted.

Looks like I have to look into my tatitcs then 

[Bakiano]

I dont know how this was not an offside call to be called by Var in premier league, where the number 10 receive the ball and got fouled and penalty was called against us. Not to mention I got a direct red card in 50th second of the game ffs.

Edited March 7 by Bakiano

[Itego]

4 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

Best to post your tactic either in the tactic forum for an actual discussion or maybe here for quick-fire replies (this thread is for feedback though so maybe not best received).

I'm currently creating a Man City tactic and whether I try Haaland as a PFa, AF or P, he just bags goals because the system makes sure he's the main threat, created space for him and plenty of supply.

This is the tactic.

His supply is both wingers, CM on support and Regista in DM. That's 4 creators.

CMa can, he has take more risks with passing but on attack, is there to be an added scoring threat so it's not just one player, but the main scoring threat has plenty of supply.

Making sure he has space, only one other player is moving into the channels (my CMs). So if LCM takes up one channel, Haaland can take up the other. Maybe limited channel space if two players are attempting to attack one channel. Or if they rotate with moving into a channel, would mean my ST won't always be moving into a channel if he's "channel sharing".

Wingers look to always open the channels by staying wide (attracting opposition FBs) - again, making more space for the striker to move and space exploit.

This is actually my formation only difference is its advanced playmakers instead of CM and then two inside forward on attack with two WB on support @RDF Tactics

Edited March 7 by Itego

[Danchinaski]

On 06/03/2024 at 11:44, XaW said:

No one knows. What are your issues with the match engine that makes it so you can't play? I tried to look for bug reports from you, but couldn't see any, so there is no way to know what issues you have.

There's a low level snark within this post which is quite commonly used in this forum and should be avoided imo, a player can still hold an opinion on their enjoyment of the game without submitting a single bug report - fwiw l disagree with the poster and think the ME is pretty good but it should not be the case where feedback is assessed against number of bug reports, especially when one considers how many niggly bugs are still in the game which have been reported for several years, many times over. 

[kiingallen]

19 minutes ago, Bakiano said:

I dont know how this was not an offside call to be called by Var in premier league, where the number 10 receive the ball and got fouled and penalty was called against us. Not to mention I got a direct red card in 50th second of the game ffs.

My recent post and this shows that the ME visual is nonsense. I conceded a penalty 3-4 yards outside of the penalty area in the 91st minute. Play on was waved, and VAR called it back, checked it and said the “foul” outside of the D was a penalty. Of course they scored that penalty and I lost the game. 
I posted the proof. 
 

but many will still defend the ME. 

[akkm]

3 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

And there you are. Hat-trick for my World Class striker. Hat-trick of assists from KDB. Hat-trick of central through-ball assists.

Rinse and repeat. KDB picks up dangerous pocked forcing CB to engage. We then exploit.

Because this is a feedback page  my feedback is with the right set up and players, central play can be devastating. Personally, I'd like to see an improvement with ball retention in the central areas of the final 3rd. Allowing for more methodical chance creation. But attacking central areas is certainly a thing in FM24.

No one is saying it doesn't happen at all or it's non existent...I'm not sure where you formed that impression from...perhaps you've seen a frustrated user indulge in hyperbole but clearly that's not the case so there’s no need try to prove something that doesn't need proving .

I do think it’s great you’re trying to help here and it’s all very obvious things you’ve pointed out and I get more casual users mightn’t see those things so fair enough but unintentionally you’re clouding things a little for SI to draw proper conclusions here.

I broadened my point to mention creativity earlier rather than simply through balls but you've fallen into the 'its your tactics' fallacy.

It may come down to expectation or view of football but the issue I've talked about at length at times is 100% a match engine issue. I have said certain elements can be mitigated with some tactical tweaks/levers but overall it’s beyond contestation it’s a match engine issue with behaviours that aren’t being coded well.

Also, you pointing out 3 through balls in a match and concluding everything is ok with through balls and central play is doing a disservice to the issue and isn’t helping to resolve it. This is how conspiracy theorists operate. Essentially someone forms an impression about something and then frames everything through that lens and sees/extracts what they want to see with an example of something, ignoring the majority of information to reinforce their impression of something (bias overrides rationality if you will). I'm not for one second saying you're a conspiracy theorist by the way .

This is what you’re doing here by thinking it’s a tactical issue and something which can be resolved with tactical elements and seeing 3 through balls and saying…well there you go…but you’re missing the bigger picture overall and not observing patterns and making proper conclusions.

 

I’ve tested the match engine thoroughly using many variant tactics and tweaks. One example is observing closely and experimenting by managing both teams in a match (watching in full match mode) revealed issues with quality play and creative passing & movement. With one team I moved all players to the wings bar 2 up front…so essentially the centre is free from impediments that would prevent good central play so it takes any perception of ‘its your tactics’ out of it.

Some of the actual play that unfolds is just dreadful at times. I’ve done it with Liverpool and the way the team sets about to attack space trying to pass and move is legitimately bad too often. Sometimes the decision making and awareness of teams mates is shockingly bad. That’s not to say there isn’t any good play at all…there is absolutely good play for sure and good pass selection, through balls, good weighted passes at times and all that but overall you’ll see patterns that mean perceptions/opinions formed about the match engine can be somewhat illusory at times.

The main patterns from an attacking perspective are:

- The creative or even obvious pass isn't selected at times where it should be and supporting runs to provide options aren’t made. The final engine has been best of this year's iterations in terms of selecting pass when it’s on but it's still not good enough. The off the ball runs are not good enough either

- The attempt at a creative pass is played to feet more than it should be where it should be played slightly ahead/ahead into the path of the player to run on to. This is quite glaring when space big and small is there

- The angle of the pass can be off...it seems to favour more angled passes left or right rather than straighter passes vertically (along the ground)

- Lots of moves break down where a protective mechanism seems to kick in to have the move break down…be it sloppy control, bad pass choice, awful awareness of others around them etc but a pattern emerges to see issues are there.

This exercise shows that the match engine is not simulating fundamental footballing behaviours well enough to be on point… be it movement/pass selection at a basic level. If this is the case with an abundance of space then it’s even more compromised when normal tactics are employed. So elements of it are good but overall lots of examples of just bad play…far too many to be fair to suggest central play is good, let along adequate. That take would just be misguided.

 

Overall, of course there are lots of good and even great things in the match engine but central creativity & the ability of players to operate in there is 100% an issue and often is an issue with the engine. If you don’t see that then that’s fine but it’s still an issue nonetheless and 100% is not tactical on the whole. I don’t mean to sound harsh and I’ve seen you make some good posts…just not here taking the bigger picture into account as we keep seeing this issue crop up in FMs match engine over the years and some people defend it and feedback that it’s ok but on the whole for the integrity of the simulation…it’s not ok.

Can the engine produce some through balls…yes

Can the engine produce enough good quality passing & movement, ability to operate in tight spaces and good creativity…nope.  

As @XaW said each to their own…and I agree 100%...it should be a case of each to their own and each can garner what they want out of the engine being able to play whatever style they want but unfortunately that’s just not the case.

It’s misleading to suggest that it is and prevents the engine from being developed/enhanced as there are key pieces missing (not saying anyone is doing that intentionally) . These elements require improvement to make the simulation more versatile, more varied and most importantly…more realistic

[themadsheep2001]

3 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

And there you are. Hat-trick for my World Class striker. Hat-trick of assists from KDB. Hat-trick of central through-ball assists.

Rinse and repeat. KDB picks up dangerous pocked forcing CB to engage. We then exploit.

Because this is a feedback page  my feedback is with the right set up and players, central play can be devastating. Personally, I'd like to see an improvement with ball retention in the central areas of the final 3rd. Allowing for more methodical chance creation. But attacking central areas is certainly a thing in FM24.

Agreed, with you on this that it should only receive tweaking around retention, and very slight tuning in aggression 

[LaytonBhoy]

Anyone else getting a minor half second stutter every now and again in the match engine? 

Not (yet) ready to submit a support ticket, just inquiring if it's a common issue or just one I've got.