NOT SOUTHGATE'S LAST HURRAH: The England 2022 campaign

[themadsheep2001]

Again, we're not just talking about the FA are we? Why is there only one (bad) journalist running this story, and he's not even pushing it himself. 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

With Ronaldo, the real reason was already know by everyone and being reported by everyone.

With White, the only """"source"""" is the Daily Star. If more credible sources (ie, pretty much anyone) start reporting too then it becomes more credible. If the Daily Star told me the sky was blue, I'd pop outside to check.

Yep, I don't know why people are ignoring this part. It's extremely relevant. We've got one journalist and not a good one. As said previously if someone like David Orstein wrote this, the reaction would be very different. 

[Weezer]

Doesn’t change the fact that Ronaldo’s absence was reported as personal reasons, because that’s the way these things work. That is why whilst you don’t have to believe the most recent reports, you also can’t assume anything from the England statement. It is literally saying nothing. I actually think it’s a little disrespectful to White that people are happy to question his mental health from such a nothing statement.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Asked by ESPN about the validity of those claims, Southgate told a news conference on Friday: "As far as I am aware, the article that was written used words like 'alleged' and so whoever wrote it didn't feel strongly enough that it was correct.

"Ben left for personal reasons. We made that very clear and I think especially in this day and age it is very important that a situation like that is respected."

Ben White did not feature for England at the World Cup before departing the squad. PAUL ELLIS/AFP via Getty Images

Sources have told ESPN that there was an incident at a team meeting involving White but describe the situation as "complicated."

While White, who did not play a single minute at the World Cup, is said to have been dealing with a separate personal issue, sources have told ESPN he was considered aloof around the camp by some of his teammates and struggled to integrate fully with the group. White's representatives have been contacted by ESPN for comment.

ESPN has learned that White and his partner are currently on holiday in the Maldives and it is has not yet been confirmed when the centre-back will return to training with Arsenal. 

[Astafjevs]

Bit of strange 'denial'. Based on that response I'd wager that there's some truth to that story

[The_jagster]

Yeah it's more like "we do not recognise that version of events" than "this did not happen".

[error username in use]

Ours to lose

Winners of our QF wins the World Cup. If England or France fail to do so, then it’s a huge bottling when the tournament is laid out in front of us

[Coulthard's Jaw]

France is the game I'm scared about. The other games are tough and we could easily lose them, but I wouldn't feel the Fear.

[PaulHartman71]

56 minutes ago, error username in use said:

Ours to lose

Winners of our QF wins the World Cup. If England or France fail to do so, then it’s a huge bottling when the tournament is laid out in front of us

Portugal/Morocco and Argentina/Croatia are all tough games at this level. Silly to assume us of France walk the rest of the tournament  or bottle it if we lose. 

Everyone wrote Croatia off last time we played them at a World Cup and when they played Brazil today. Argentina have Messi. Portugal have possibly the best depth of anyone at the tournament and just smashed Switzerland 6-1. Morocco have looked good and like Croatia are hard to beat as shown in the Spain game. 

Edit: See look at this tournament ffs. Netherlands still in it now  

Edited December 9, 2022 by PaulHartman71

[error username in use]

We are not underdogs anymore. No game is easy but it’s ours to lose… outside of the France game. That’s probably 1v2 in the World atm.

[Bootador]

5 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Asked by ESPN about the validity of those claims, Southgate told a news conference on Friday: "As far as I am aware, the article that was written used words like 'alleged' and so whoever wrote it didn't feel strongly enough that it was correct.

"Ben left for personal reasons. We made that very clear and I think especially in this day and age it is very important that a situation like that is respected."

Ben White did not feature for England at the World Cup before departing the squad. PAUL ELLIS/AFP via Getty Images

Sources have told ESPN that there was an incident at a team meeting involving White but describe the situation as "complicated."

While White, who did not play a single minute at the World Cup, is said to have been dealing with a separate personal issue, sources have told ESPN he was considered aloof around the camp by some of his teammates and struggled to integrate fully with the group. White's representatives have been contacted by ESPN for comment.

ESPN has learned that White and his partner are currently on holiday in the Maldives and it is has not yet been confirmed when the centre-back will return to training with Arsenal. 

Steve Holland is banging Ben White's sister. 

Did I say that out loud? Nah, wasn't me. Was my dog. I made that up. I mean the dog did. Bad dog.

Honestly, it's not true.

[HoChiKim]

I really hope that's the end of Southgate, England have been so hard to watch under his leadership.

[Bootador]

This is the only tournament I've genuinely wanted England to do well, so maybe he's won me over  (I not anti England, I'm just equally in love with the comedy of losing as with the glory of success)

Love you Gareth

[Smallen]

 

They are really quite a nice bunch, this lot

[PaulHartman71]

If he does decide to leave then what a terrible take this is given what our women’s side just achieved…

[Bigwig]

Wallace shaving a ‘mare there.

Who needs those foreign coaches with all their winning trophies stuff when we can appoint an English manager and hold our heads high at a courageous defeat?

[The_jagster]

I do prefer it when a coach is the same nationality and that applies to countries big or small, but I don't think it should be a rule.

[Rob1981]

It wouldn’t bother me if we went foreign again, but I would want it to be someone like Tuchel or Poch or even Mourinho... someone that has been around the PL for a decent period of time.

Need to build on all the club culture stuff that Gareth has built, not bring in a complete outsider from a different league that doesn’t know any of the players.

If the FA feel they have to go for another big name ex-player I actually don’t think Lampard would be a bad shout, as long as he has the right coaches working behind him.

Or Lee Carsley would be my outside bet. At least assuming Gareth sticks around until 2024 and we have a good U21 tournament in the meantime. I think the average age of the senior squad goes against Carsely though, we’ve got so many young kids already making first team places their own for the foreseeable... dont think there’s that much opportunity to bring through the next batch of U21s that he’s working with currently.

[decapitated]

There's talk of Tuchel, Poch or Brendan Rodgers.

[Bootador]

1 hour ago, PaulHartman71 said:

If he does decide to leave then what a terrible take this is given what our women’s side just achieved…

Agree, can't remember who made the point on twitter last night. But when Sven & Capello were managers it was a different era - almost a novelty to have foreign managers in England. It's now normal, we've got the team spirit we now need the best manager. That's why I'm happy to keep Southgate if push comes to shove because I'm fearing a worse English manager taking over.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bootador

[PaulHartman71]

I can’t see Poch happening. 

Tuchel would struggle with certain elements of the country and the media being a German but he’s got real pedigree as a Champions League winner and I believe he’s got enough charisma/personality to pull it off. 

Not even sure Poch would take it as imagine he’d get a lot of backlash back home in Argentina (whereas Germans wouldn’t care at all) and he’d have the press backlash here, doesn’t have the pedigree that Tuchel has not sure he has the best personality for it. His main plus of course he knows how to get th best out of Harry Kane. I think with the Falklands weighing over him here and back home it would be very difficult. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 hour ago, PaulHartman71 said:

If he does decide to leave then what a terrible take this is given what our women’s side just achieved…

It's a dumb point because 90%+ of the coaching our best players get is from foreign coaches.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Rory Smith piling in agreeing with Sam  

[pearcey_90]

Top job should be someone who’s English by eligibility. Same for all nations. It’s the best of the country against best of other counties. 

[Smallen]

I am an internationalist more generally so hopefully I don’t get called a xenophobe for this , but I do tend to agree that national team coaches should be the same nationality as the playing side otherwise it kind of defeats the object of being a national team to me. They’re an important part of the team. If the playing squad is restricted to the nation then the person directing them probably should be too.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s cheating at all because it’s simply not true and that kind of language starts becoming a bit nasty.

[GunmaN1905]

4 minutes ago, Smallen said:

I am an internationalist more generally so hopefully I don’t get called a xenophobe for this , but I do tend to agree that national team coaches should be the same nationality as the playing side otherwise it kind of defeats the object of being a national team to me. They’re an important part of the team. If the playing squad is restricted to the nation then the person directing them probably should be too.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s cheating at all because it’s simply not true and that kind of language starts becoming a bit nasty.

Having foreign coaches for NTs is just stupid if we talk European nations with football culture.

There has to be pride and effort involved, NT matches are often all about motivation.

I can see why undeveloped minnows go for it, but it's the NT. You don't have the passport, you shouldn't be eligible.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Should be said if we aren't producing coaches who are good enough then that is a really bad reflection on the FA and our system, but national teams are heavily influenced by non-nationals in all sorts of ways, so I'm deeply relaxed about what the nationality of the coach is.

Would be mad if we wasted the best years we might ever have as England fans because Lee Carsley has a British passport.

[Darren Moores Mum]

Form of cheating. What a dumb take.

[Smallen]

Ironically in part thanks to the likes of Guardiola and Klopp's influence on English football I think we are starting to produce much better coaches already (Howe and Potter being the two current standouts I think). Howe in charge of England and we win a trophy playing unbelievable football that the world has never seen before. Not a doubt in my mind.

Unfortunately the best coaches are workaholics and aren't likely to move into international football. They live for the training pitch. It'll be a while until we have someone who's a step-up from Southgate. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Smallen

[The_jagster]

I am sure you were quite negative about Howe at first

[Smallen]

I was indifferent when we appointed him and was questioning whether he should still be in a job in January, yeah.

I was wrong!

[InigoPatinkin]

Manager should be the nationality of the team really when you're the size of England, it's not cheating or anything but it kind of misses the point of international football if you're not doing it. We have club football which is the melting pot of cultures to share ideas etc. and international football should be a different experience. 

It would feel really unfair on Wales/Scotland if they produced a generational talent as manager and we just yoinked him for the English national team and robbed them of the opportunity for instance.    

[Coulthard's Jaw]

13 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

It would feel really unfair on Wales/Scotland if they produced a generational talent as manager and we just yoinked him for the English national team and robbed them of the opportunity for instance.    

They can manage Scotland after they've won the World Cup with us, win win for everyone.

[Baptista_8]

[Coulthard's Jaw]

13 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Paul should cheer up.

[InigoPatinkin]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

They can manage Scotland after they've won the World Cup with us, win win for everyone.

I'm not sure you'd convince the Scottish of that  

 

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Half Scot me, I'd be happy 

[InigoPatinkin]

On a purely selfish note, there's never been a foreign manager of a world cup winner so it's probably not even a great idea if you have to resort to it, you seemingly have bigger issues. Ernst Happel (Netherlands) and George Raynor (Sweden) are the only managers ever to get to the final managing a foreign team, by the looks of it. For international football having good vibes, a reasonably secure defensive structure and relying on your attacking players to do their thing seems to win most tournaments anyway. The number of teams which play "good" football usually get knocked out. Even Spain, who had half their team come from peak Barcelona basically turned into a really negative team who recycled the ball relentlessly and taking minimal risks. 

I'm not sure you're actually supposed to enjoy international football come to think of it... it's supposed to make you suffer with the occasional moment of happiness at the end. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

14 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

On a purely selfish note, there's never been a foreign manager of a world cup winner so it's probably not even a great idea if you have to resort to it, you seemingly have bigger issues. Ernst Happel (Netherlands) and George Raynor (Sweden) are the only managers ever to get to the final managing a foreign team, by the looks of it. For international football having good vibes, a reasonably secure defensive structure and relying on your attacking players to do their thing seems to win most tournaments anyway.

As Rob said, if you're going to do it, you need to do it with someone who is established in the English game, and quite frankly how many of those are a) actually suited to international management and b) going to ditch the club game for internationals?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Bootador]

So we're backing Southgate? 

I mean, if it's not Potter, Howe or a foreign coach it's probably a step down isn't it?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bootador

[Smallen]

I don’t even think there are any foreign coaches we could get that would be “better” than Southgate. Even if they’re a better coach there’s a trade off that they aren’t going to be as good at man management and/or getting the nation and press behind the team.

Tuchel? I thought people hated negative football with a back 5? Pochettino probably, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

I hope Southgate stays.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Smallen

[Baptista_8]

7 minutes ago, Bootador said:

So we're backing Southgate? 

I mean, if it's not Potter, Howe or a foreign coach it's probably a step down isn't it?

Probably underestimating how bad Southgate is.

[GunmaN1905]

5 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

On a purely selfish note, there's never been a foreign manager of a world cup winner so it's probably not even a great idea if you have to resort to it, you seemingly have bigger issues. Ernst Happel (Netherlands) and George Raynor (Sweden) are the only managers ever to get to the final managing a foreign team, by the looks of it. For international football having good vibes, a reasonably secure defensive structure and relying on your attacking players to do their thing seems to win most tournaments anyway. The number of teams which play "good" football usually get knocked out. Even Spain, who had half their team come from peak Barcelona basically turned into a really negative team who recycled the ball relentlessly and taking minimal risks.

EUROs have more finals appearances and even trophies with foreign managers.

Quote

I'm not sure you're actually supposed to enjoy international football come to think of it... it's supposed to make you suffer with the occasional moment of happiness at the end. 

Well, it used to be about way higher level of engagement and sh*thousing from players than when they play for clubs.

For me, South American qualifiers were always fascinating, you'd have all the top players from European clubs and then when they play back at home, they revert to their natural state and most games are massive sh*thousing fests with a lot of bad tackles and cards.

European qualifiers on the other hand are just meh these days, sort of feels like club football.

[Rob1981]

11 minutes ago, Smallen said:

if they’re a better coach there’s a trade off that they aren’t going to be as good at man management and/or getting the nation and press behind the team.

It's almost like being a great tactician and making the right in-game subs is only part of the job.

[InigoPatinkin]

4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

EUROs have more finals appearances and even trophies with foreign managers.

Just Otto Rehhagel for Greece right?

I'm a lot more sympathetic to countries with fewer resources doing it tbf, but for a country the size of England with as much football infrastructure as we do there's little reason. 

[Smallen]

4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It's almost like being a great tactician and making the right in-game subs is only part of the job.

Yeah.

I do think Southgate could do with someone in addition to Steve Holland, mind. They’re great at getting the initial setup right for games, but they have shown that they’re limited when it comes to changing a game. The only criticism I have from the France game were the subs.

[Bootador]

14 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Probably underestimating how bad Southgate is.

Lampard?

Gerrard?

Carsley?

Come on, these are all worse then Southgate. Maybe Southgate is just as weak domestically, but these guys at best will match Southgate's achievements (and probably do much worse)

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bootador

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, Bootador said:

Lampard?

Gerrard?

Carsley?

Come on, these are all worse then Southgate. Maybe Southgate is just as weak domestically, but these guys at best will match Southgate's achievements.

Didn't realise quite how slim the pickings are. Scary

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I mean, who'd have guessed Southgate would be any good at being England manager?