Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

[herne79]

For FM18 I wrote an article called Attacking and Possession, looking at how it was possible to combine tactical settings to drive possession with intent.  That was based in no small on @Cleon's original article, The Art of Possession Football - which was a serious game changer for me and my understanding of the game.

But what about possession with intent in FM19?  Things have changed since last year.  Two commonly used tools to help with this style of football (Team Shape and Retain Possession) are now gone.  We've also seen apparent ME issues concerning lack of forward movement, cross-a-rama with difficulty in making through balls and even overpowered defending.  Not to mention an AI overly prone to parking the bus at every given opportunity.  So is it even possible in FM19?

TL;DR - yes:

(gogo AI Pep ).

So what magic is this?  What am I doing?  How are only 30% of my goals beings scored from crosses (and of those, mostly short range crosses from inside the box)?  And with West Ham?

All this and more to come in next week's thrilling episode...

[bdixon]

This is something I'll be eagerly waiting for. The issues you are mentioning are all things I'm finding very very frustrating with the current ME.

[VinceLombardi]

Really looking forward to this, as much for myself as for the community. That possession style seems to be eluding the masses, and I'm excited to see it successful and on display.

[herne79]

Basic Principles

(Disclaimer - there are many ways of achieving possession, these principles are just some of those ways).

(I'll also add I won't be showing the complete base tactical system for a while as I want to discuss principles, so if that's what you are after I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a wait).

1)  Pressing

"You win the ball back when there are thirty metres to their goal not eighty."  (+1 internet if you know the quote).

66% possession against Southampton (see above).  Take a quick look at the first and third goals from that match (below).  Pay close attention to the West Ham players, especially before the first goal.  Southampton have a little bit of possession (good for them) but watch how the West Ham players quickly and constantly close down the ball carriers both in Southampton's half and around the half way line.  The ball is eventually forced back to their 'keeper who clears it long and the rest is history.

The third goal is also of interest as the 'keeper is forced into an error.

There is a combination of factors at work here and it's this combination which is important.  (Note the stress on that word "combination".  The whole is only as strong as it's constituent parts and those constituent parts should combine well together if you want to maximise the desired effect). 

So this is a combination of Mentality, Team and Player Instructions and the players themselves.  (You could optionally use opposition instructions as well, however this is something I never use as I like to use the Tactic Creator to lay my ground rules, rather than layer on something additional which could override those rules.  And I'm lazy so cba before each match ).

Mentality - sets the base line for the amount of risk I want my players to take.  Too much risk and I could leave myself exposed.  Too little and I may not be aggressive enough with my Pressing.  I want my front 5 pressing like demons, but the last thing I want - at least in this particular set up - is my central defence doing the same.  Mentality comes into other aspects (discussed later - yet more combinations) so as a starting point I'm going with a neutral middle fadiddle.  This can easily be adjusted during a match if needed.

Team/Player Instructions - if I'm going to win the ball back nearer to their goal than my own, I need my players to engage accordingly.  This is where FM19 comes into it's own with the new Line of Engagement instruction, so up it goes.  But when my players are at that Line of Engagement they need to know how to behave (ie., with a high intensity press).  I could use the Team Instruction to adjust pressing intensity, but I'd run into the same issue as described above.  So I target my front 5 with specific pressing instructions and leave my defenders alone.  I could use the TI and then tell my defence to press less, but that's just over complicating things.

The Transition - Lets think about the combination of factors logically for a moment.  I want to win the ball back high up the pitch.  And I want those players positioned high up the pitch to press the opposition.  So do I a) tell them when they lose the ball to "immediately get back into their defensive shape"; b) don't tell them anything; or c) tell them when they lose the ball to "immediately apply pressure"?  Anyone who chooses a) or b) should phone a friend before giving their final answer.  Things work best when they work together, not fighting each other.

The Players - telling the players to do something is one thing.  Them having the ability to actually carry out those instructions in the manner you want is something else entirely.  Any player can play any role, they just play it differently due to their Attributes and Traits.  So here, I am telling them to engage the opposition early and pressurise the ball carrier like there's no tomorrow.  So would weak willed, lazy ass players who'll tire quickly help?  Or would players with backbone, work ethic and the physical ability to sustain that* be better?  West Ham have their fair share of players more towards the latter description.

*Note - sustaining a high intensity press for 90 minutes in this system isn't actually necessary.  We do a lot of defending (and attacking!) with the ball and if we have the ball there is no need to press the opposition.  Just on those rare occasions we decide to let them have it for a bit .

It's this combination of all the component parts which is important here.  It can still work if one or more parts are weak (or missing) but it may not be quite as effective as when everything is working in harmony together.  And that's going to be a common theme throughout this thread.

[Experienced Defender]

An enjoyable read so far 

[bdixon]

I'm very interested to see the combination of roles you are using. I find by using mostly support there is sometime not as much penetration I would like and we end up passing it around the box until a blocked shot occurs.  

[herne79]

52 minutes ago, bdixon said:

I'm very interested to see the combination of roles you are using. I find by using mostly support there is sometime not as much penetration I would like and we end up passing it around the box until a blocked shot occurs.  

That will come .  However, from my final sentence above:

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

It's this combination of all the component parts which is important here...  And that's going to be a common theme throughout this thread.

It's not just about the combination of roles.  It's about the combination of everything: roles, duties, mentality, TIs, PIs and the players themselves.  Even the opposition will have a say.  There's also one particular player trait I've been making use of which can help, but again more on that later .

[robot_skeleton]

This is a truly great thread and I'm so happy that there are others who still find Cleon's possession post inspiring. (I personally worship that post like an insane person) Looking forward to the continuation of this thread!

[Generation-Next]

You tease

[xnovoxx]

Really interested in seeing the results; mostly curious on your midfield 3 combination and your strikers role. I've been playing with West Ham myself and just beginning my 2023-24 season. I've went through many iterations of 4123 (DM-Wide) and finding the start of this season very tough.

So far I've gone from CAR-MEZ-HB(DM) to CAR-MEZ-DLP(DM) to CM(A)-RPLM-DM(DM) and now at BBM-AP-HB(DM). None have been satisfying me enough; mostly my disappointment is the DM role as my desire is for him to cover the pocket of space and he seems to wander just about everywhere; even with lower closing down and stay's back at all time PPM. 

On the strikers front; I'm having nightmares but the most logical role in my mind seems to either be a PF(D), DLF(S) or CF(S) though it grinds my gears where my wide players cut inside and since the forward's got no  "get forward" instruction in any of those roles, he just sits there.

[sporadicsmiles]

I have recently been trying to produce something similar in terms of aim to this, but so far not successful. At the moment I can have attacking thrust without possession, or possession without much attacking thrust.  We converged very well on the pressing side of things, in particular the use of PIs rather than TIs to get pressing where I want it (I will also use general OIs that I rarely change to try to better define the behaviour I want to see all across the field).

I still struggle with the movements of forwards, however. I have yet to figure out how to prevent play to be funnelled down to my wide fullbacks when playing with a lone striker. This results in a lot of crossing. I have, however, had a huge amount of success dropping a striker back into AM and using a SS(A), playing with a 41230 formation. This gets the striker involved, without losing the goal threat (although it is less, I try to play in a way to spread goals around my attacking players anyway).

I also suffer from a lack of penetration, which I assume may be linked to the tempo and directness at which I play. At least, when I want to play with possession. I tend to let the other side get into position before I expose them. This does not matter when you regain the ball high up the pitch as much, but if you fail to do this, or a team is totally parking the bus and not trying to exit, I have issues. So I will await with interest your thoughts on how to generate a bit more thrust.

[Keyzer Soze]

@herne79

I could be wrong but I suspect that you are combining a low LOE with a higher D-line, creating  a very congest press zone just outside the midfield line, with the 5 top players instructed to press more urgent, and the rest with standard pressing. 

I assume that you are using the counter instruction to when you win the ball. 

About the press, or not, instruction to when you loose the ball, at first I thought that you leave that with nothing ticked, but from you post it seen that you choose to apply immediately pressure after loosing the ball. I would assume that for a more possession orientated tactic you would choose the option to regroup. 

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Keyzer Soze said:

@herne79

I could be wrong but I suspect that you are combining a low LOE with a higher D-line, creating  a very congest press zone just outside the midfield line, with the 5 top players instructed to press more urgent, and the rest with standard pressing. 

I assume that you are using the counter instruction to when you win the ball. 

About the press, or not, instruction to when you loose the ball, at first I thought that you leave that with nothing ticked, but from you post it seen that you choose to apply immediately pressure after loosing the ball. I would assume that for a more possession orientated tactic you would choose the option to regroup. 

He's using a high LOE. 

Quote

Team/Player Instructions - if I'm going to win the ball back nearer to their goal than my own, I need my players to engage accordingly.  This is where FM19 comes into it's own with the new Line of Engagement instruction, so up it goes.  But when my players are at that Line of Engagement they need to know how to behave (ie., with a high intensity press).  I could use the Team Instruction to adjust pressing intensity, but I'd run into the same issue as described above.  So I target my front 5 with specific pressing instructions and leave my defenders alone.  I could use the TI and then tell my defence to press less, but that's just over complicating things.

Also, regrouping isn't always a good thing nor does it mean it's better suited for more possession orientated tactics either. Possession can be gained/achieved in many ways. Sometimes if you drop off to regroup then you lose the opportunity to gain possession back, so lose time. After all in FM possession = time on the ball.

It all depends on the type of possession/system you are creating. There is no such thing as better suited when talking in isolation.

Also not sure what you mean by a more possession orientated tactic, @herne79 possession numbers are great for the players/team he is. You could probably squeeze some more numbers out but then I'm 90% sure you'd lose a lot of attacking intent.

@herne79 Another cracking thread mate. It's good to see someone writing about possession with intent and showing how you have a high amount of possession but you're ripping teams open with it and being aggressive from the front to win the ball back. In my current save I also have a possession with intent tactic but it's the reverse of yours. A passive front 4 and an aggressive back 6. The approach itself is very different from yours but we achieve the same thing, we just come at it from different ends.

I also like how you've set things out and spoke about what you are wanting and the way the team needs to act/behave to achieve what you need. You've just laid things out in a simplistic way, especially when you talk about combinations. I wish more threads where like this that forces the reader to think about stuff as a whole and how mentality/players/roles etc all link together. It's the way that the forum should be driven towards now, with how the game is beginning to link up better with the other modules available. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I could be wrong

Higher LoE + higher d-line.  I want to win the ball back high up the pitch.

1 hour ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I would assume that for a more possession orientated tactic you would choose the option to regroup. 

There's different ways of achieving possession (which I mentioned above).  I'm choosing to use a counter-press as part of this particular system as I don't want to give the opposition time on the ball when I lose it, with the intention of winning the ball back high up the pitch (ref. that quote I mentioned).

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Another cracking thread mate.

Cheers .

12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

possession numbers are great for the players/team he is. You could probably squeeze some more numbers out but then I'm 90% sure you'd lose a lot of attacking intent.

Yup 100%.  I haven't touched on how I developed things or adjust from match to match yet but I've had games where I'm above 75% with 800+ passes which is overkill.

19 minutes ago, Cleon said:

You've just laid things out in a simplistic way, especially when you talk about combinations. I wish more threads where like this that forces the reader to think about stuff as a whole and how mentality/players/roles etc all link together. It's the way that the forum should be driven towards now, with how the game is beginning to link up better with the other modules available. 

Exactly this.  It's too easy to just slap a bunch of player roles together without considering how everything else will impact those roles.  Without giving away too much, I'll be writing about that soon with particular regard to one of my positions as an example of how I consider these different aspects as I make changes .

[herne79]

Basic Principles

2)  Mythbusting

There is a commonly held belief that possession based football can only be achieved using lower mentalities such as Defensive or Cautious.  This is a myth.

Cleon wrote about that ages ago in his The Art of Possession Football article, where he used the Control mentality (as it was named then) in combination with (that theme again) various tactical settings.  He could have used the Attacking mentality just as easily.  I did use the Attacking mentality last year in my Attacking and Possession thread - again in combination with various tactical settings.  And Rashidi does bonkers things with Overload (Very Attacking).

"But aha!" I hear you cry.  "That isn't FM19.  In FM19 you have to play with low mentalities to drive possession because of ME issues."  Which I've seen written.  But again untrue.  The same basic principles still apply.  (That's not to say there aren't ME issues - there are).  Here's me using the Positive mentality from the start of a match in FM19:

69% possession, 800 passes, a reasonable amount of crosses, 2 of the 3 goals from open play.  I was tempted to up things to the Attacking mentality but I was 2-0 up at half time, 3-0 on 70 mins so there really wasn't any point (if it ain't broke don't fix it).

And I see similar numbers with different mentalities.  Going right back to the opening post, I was using the Balanced mentality against Southampton and Cautious vs Man City.

So what the hell am I doing?

In summary it's using Mentality in combination with other small tactical tweaks and the players themselves.  So for example, where I may give one of my central midfielders an Attack duty when using the Cautious mentality to help encourage him forward, he'll get a support duty instead when using the Positive mentality because the mentality change on it's own will give him that encouragement.  Leaving him on an Attack duty in this situation would be too much (for this system at least), leaving defensive holes and discouraging possession.  Further - and to bang the "in combination with" drum yet again - here's the player I try to often use (Jack Wilshere) in that position:

Note the Trait I've highlighted.  So if using the Positive mentality (or even Balanced) and giving Jack a support duty role, there is simply no need to encourage more forward runs with an Attack duty because he does it himself already.  And because of that combination, midfield possession can be maintained better.  So in this particular case, it's a combination of Mentality, player duty and the player.

I'll touch on another example to help demonstrate things further.  I'll start some matches using the Cautious mentality (because I'm still West Ham first season and have to play the likes of Liverpool).  In these matches, I'll usually give Jack his Attacking duty (Cautious will tone it down a bit) but I may also untick "Work Ball Into Box" but have "Play out of Defence" active.  Why?  Because with the Cautious mentality defenders can tend to clear the ball rather than pass it to someone nearby unless I tell them not to; and attackers tend to take their time and pass the ball around a bit, so telling them to do that even more may not be necessary.  Of course these things can always be added back in if I notice something going wonky.

And guess what.  With the Positive mentality I'll tend to do the opposite with Play out of Defence / Work Ball into Box because (simplistically) Positive defaults to the opposite of Cautious for these passing principles.

TL;DR - change things around if you want to but always be aware of the effects it can have and be prepared to do something about one or more of those effects if you don't like them.  And I can actually show you my light bulb moment when I (finally) grasped that simple concept - from Cleon's Art of Possession thread:

 

[djb24]

I'll be honest, as someone who has struggled on this year's iteration this is a really great thread. Think sometimes it takes seeing someone else break everything down really logically and in an easy to understand manner for things to click. 

Great work!

[Gegenklaus]

God, I need to see your system, @herne79, from which you do the changes. Your numbers and stats are really impressive - so is your overall approach. 

[Gegenklaus]

Show us the way to the holy grail!

[VinceLombardi]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

So if using the Positive mentality (or even Balanced) and giving Jack a support duty role, there is simply no need to encourage more forward runs with an Attack duty because he does it himself already. 

This. This. This. You can do a similar thing with the Get Further Forward PI.

I use this constantly to bridge the gap between support and attack duty, and get a player that gets forward, but doesn't have the risk taking or single minded aggressive intent that you can get when you stack attacking duty players with higher team mentalities.

It's a very underutilized tool and can help resolve a lot of the repetitive issues you see people try to attribute to the ME being broken.

[herne79]

22 minutes ago, VinceLombardi said:

This. This. This. You can do a similar thing with the Get Further Forward PI.

I use this constantly to bridge the gap between support and attack duty, and get a player that gets forward, but doesn't have the risk taking or single minded aggressive intent that you can get when you stack attacking duty players with higher team mentalities.

It's a very underutilized tool and can help resolve a lot of the repetitive issues you see people try to attribute to the ME being broken.

Exactly.

The biggest single issue some people who look for help have is they don't look at the players properly.  It's all well and good telling a player to do something if he isn't actually capable of doing it.  Or, perhaps more pertinently, don't tell a player to do more than you need to.  Two sides of the same coin - instruction and ability - and then use both sides to your advantage.

[Cleon]

Another good update @herne79

It's such a simple post and also reflects how I play and view the game, but we don't see many types of these posts around here. Again you give a specific example of a player and how you'd play him on the different mentality structures and talk a little about how that changes. I think this is where people can over complicate the game because they think it has to be more complex than that. But it doesn't. It's simple and when you have that light bulb moment as you put it, it becomes common sense and second nature.

[VinceLombardi]

21 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Or, perhaps more pertinently, don't tell a player to do more than you need to. 

Perhaps even more pertinent, not identifying what it is that they actually need and want a specific player to do. And understanding how their system is suppose to work so that they can differentiate between the two. 

I'm my system, I WANT my wide midfielders to be great shooters or crossers. But what I NEED is guys that are good with the ball at their feet and use space well.

If they don't have the skills to do what I need them to do, they will never get the chance to do what I want them to do. 

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[Garrlor]

This thread and the Mentality Masterplan one have made Christmas come early. Don't get me wrong, I am not struggling per se, but it will certainly help me set up a number of tactics for my United side to change the way I play.

It would also explain why I get far more out of Martial as an IF(Su) rather than on attack duty in a positive mentality set up and why I need to drop Pogba back to a SU mentality Mez when I am playing on that same Team Mentality, as they both have the gets into the opposistion area trait. It also explains a lot of my success with my 4-2-3-1 Balanced tactic. A lot of food for thought here mate, excellent work!

Thinking about it, it's probably also why Chong has started doing well for me playing as a W(At) as he starts wider then cuts in onto that left foot, and also why Mata starts deeper and wider to play the through balls into Martial/Sanchez.

[Bluebird123]

Sometimes I feel like I've finally understood the game then posts like this come along. Even in the few posts you've written @herne79 you've given me a lot of ideas on how to refine my tactic. Thank you

[bdixon]

I'm amazed by the sheer number of passes you are achieving in that Watford game. I've never got anything as high as that and I thought I had a little bit of an understanding of tactics following Cleon's thread last time.

Now my base setting for my possession tactic is balance/positive depending on opposition, to further increase possession numbers obviously much shorter passing is a must. Now I always used to select play out of defence as my approach was one of defenders must play it short, which is along the same as what you were saying in the 2nd post. All my roles tend to be on support, which is something I picked up from Cleon's thread.

The issue I tend to face is a ME one, whether it is a bug or not I'll not comment too much, but when facing teams who are playing ultra defensive and have no interest of getting out their own half this is where I struggle to achieve anything more the 55%.

[VinceLombardi]

35 minutes ago, bdixon said:

to further increase possession numbers obviously much shorter passing is a must.

I hope so bad that it's not the case for @herne79 's system. This is another of the ME myths that is just ripe for busting. An absolutely untrue statement that everybody takes as gospel. Same with needing to use an extremely low tempo.

In both cases the lowest settings are so extreme that, based on other factors (like width, player mentality, etc.), they can significantly hurt your possession numbers by causing very unnecessary and preventable turnovers, especially when they are used in conjunction with one another.

35 minutes ago, bdixon said:

The issue I tend to face is a ME one, whether it is a bug or not I'll not comment too much, but when facing teams who are playing ultra defensive and have no interest of getting out their own half this is where I struggle to achieve anything more the 55%.

Not a ME issue I'm afraid. It's the same tactical issue that @herne79is dealing with and resolving with his discussions about how he uses Jack Wilshire.

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[bdixon]

3 minutes ago, VinceLombardi said:

I hope so bad that it's not the case for @herne79 's tactic. This is another of the ME myths that is just ripe for busting. An absolutely untrue statement that everybody takes as gospel. Same with needing to use an extremely low tempo.

In both cases they lowest settings are so extreme that, based on other factors (like width, player mentality, etc.), they can significantly hurt your possession numbers by causing very unnecessary and preventable turnovers.

Well, this is very interesting to hear I've always thought that a retain possession type TI is a must when creating possession based tactics. So I'm assuming playmakers are a must or is this no longer the case either?

[VinceLombardi]

12 minutes ago, bdixon said:

Well, this is very interesting to hear I've always thought that a retain possession type TI is a must when creating possession based tactics. So I'm assuming playmakers are a must or is this no longer the case either?

Nothing is a must. Playmakers, short passing, low tempo, any of it. They are just tools that can help (or hurt) your goal to control the ball based on how you use them. For a possession based tactic you are very likely to use most or maybe all of them. But you don't have to. It's not good to think in absolutes in this regard.

And even if they were "a must" in the old versions, the new ME has shown itself to be a different beast. Gotta be willing to expand those expectations to accommodate it.

I think that's a big part of what @herne79 is trying to do with the post and how he is presenting the system.

He obviously has a working system. It could have all been in the first post. Instead he is trying to piecemeal it a little at a time to get people thinking about what he is doing, rather than just copying it and inadvertently creating the next age of "must have" rules to possession football that everybody follows.

That's why I was so excited for this post for the community. Gotta get people to think outside of the box, so that they stop blindly clicking "Work ball into the box."

Edited January 28, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[bdixon]

Well I'll sit here patiently waiting for the rest of thread to be posted because it would appear what I thought I knew might not be the case.

[VinceLombardi]

3 minutes ago, bdixon said:

patiently waiting for the rest of thread

You, me, and many others. I'm expecting there will be lots of neat little bits to glean and consider before it's all done. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, bdixon said:

All my roles tend to be on support, which is something I picked up from Cleon's thread.

As far as I remember, that Cleon's thread was from FM18, when team shape still existed in the game. In FM19 however, as the shape has gone, the context is somewhat different (though basic principles still apply).

[herne79]

3 hours ago, bdixon said:

Now my base setting for my possession tactic is balance/positive depending on opposition, to further increase possession numbers obviously much shorter passing is a must.

 

2 hours ago, VinceLombardi said:

I hope so bad that it's not the case for @herne79 's system.

That all depends on the rest of your possession tactic @bdixon.  If your system calls for it then absolutely use shorter passing - it brings the players closer together and gives them a little more time to consider their actions, both of which can help promote possession.

It's the rest of the system which is important though.  Consider just the basic formation aspect for a moment.  If using a single striker with nobody at AMC, getting people up in support of that striker may become more difficult if you use a higher tempo and/or more direct passing.  And if the striker lacks support there's a risk you'll consistently lose possession in that area.  But reduce the tempo and/or passing length and suddenly your players have a bit more time on their hands to provide support.  But with a more top heavy formation this may become less of an issue - players are already up in support and so there's less pressure to give them time to get there.

A quick example:  I just beat Arsenal 4-0 using the Positive mentality.  I didn't touch passing length but I did set Work Ball Into Box (reasons described above) and I also reduced Tempo.  The Positive mentality comes with a high Tempo + longer passing set by default.  So in order to ensure my midfield could provide decent support in the final third, I reduced Tempo to give them time to get there (I'm not using anyone at AMC remember).  I still played my passing game but I "only" achieved 58% possession.  That's still damn good but relatively low for me - at least in the context of what I'm doing (which as Vince says is more of a community experiment than anything).

2 hours ago, bdixon said:

Well I'll sit here patiently waiting for the rest of thread to be posted because it would appear what I thought I knew might not be the case.

You do know.  Shorter Passing can indeed help, it's just how it fits in with the rest of your system and whether or not you actually need it .

[xnovoxx]

I’m not sure if it’s a visual glitch, a bug or intentional but if you pay close attention; setting your team instructions to shorter passing while also using play out of defence indicates that the back lines directness is higher (50%) than if you use standard passing (33%) alongside play out of defence.

big thanks @herne79 for the write up and not just a tactic dump. After reading this, it motivated me to tweak my system and I’m getting some wonderful footy. I’m not as insistent on possession but I’ve finally unlocked the pressing I was desiring as well as attacking intent from my striker. Also solved my DM problem via mentality adjustments to the CBs

keep it up!

[herne79]

Just by way of a quick follow up, below is a video of my first goal against Arsenal which I mentioned above. 

I've wound the clock back to provide better context, so the action starts with our corner.  Arsenal try to break, but luckily they are trying to break with Sokratis and he cocks it up.  Then watch how my back line calmly and patiently pass the ball amongst themselves, before pinging it to Yarmolenko.  He makes a quick break, Arnautovic comes deep to make himself available, freeing up space for the running Felipe who scores from Arnie's through ball.  Calm and patient at the back, forwards playing with flair and movement.  Obviously we don't score all our goals like that, but it's not exactly the first either.

For me, this one goal encapsulates the entire thread .

 

[VinceLombardi]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

For me, this one goal encapsulates the entire thread .

That's a nice goal. And the pass to Yarmolenko that made it possible isn't something you would see in most possession systems I see posted. Thanks for sharing. 

[robot_skeleton]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

As far as I remember, that Cleon's thread was from FM18, when team shape still existed in the game. In FM19 however, as the shape has gone, the context is somewhat different (though basic principles still apply).

It was FM 16, but yeah the principles are the same. But I wonder how herne created space by positioning players far apart from each other and then bring them back together somehow or do I just misinterpret the reason he linked those comments?

[jc577]

I'm really intrigued to see if there are any comparisons between this tactic and your 442 from a few years ago Herne, more in terms of overall thought process as I know it wasn't meant to be a possession tactic. I think the development of that system was the physical manifestation of the lightbulb moment you mentioned earlier. 

 

 

[herne79]

Basic Principles

3) Passing and Movement

"There is no such thing as a short pass or a long pass, only the right pass."

I've been using the 4123DM Wide formation (aka the 4141DM Wide I believe it's called in game now).  With that formation I tend to use Shorter Passing or Lower Tempo to help ensure my forwards get the support they need from my midfield.  It's a product of the formation and I use those tactical settings to help the support - not to drive possession.  Additional possession is the by-product.

Now take a look at the screenshot below.  I'm playing Arsenal away (a 2-2 draw) but just as a little experiment for the purposes of this thread I switched to the 4231 formation and left passing and tempo to their default settings.  So no passing or tempo adjustments:

63% possession.  And yet with my usual formation (ref. the post I made above) I "only" achieved 58% possession with an adjustment to Tempo (but not to passing).  So what is happening?  (btw this is not a replayed match against Arsenal, we played them in the league and Cup in quick succession).

Well, how do we lose possession?  Usually through mistakes (either forced or unforced errors); being tackled; inaccurate shots or crosses; and a lack of passing options (aka support).  In a top heavy formation such as the 4231, advanced players tend to always have passing options simply because at least 4 players are positioned that way.  And those passing options can be enhanced through additional tactical settings and the players own abilities: roam from position to help them find pockets of space; dribble less so they don't get tackled or run down blind alleys; decent off the ball movement; and more besides.  Can Shorter Passing and/or reduced Tempo help to retain possession?  Of course, but question whether you actually need it, especially if you want possession with intent.

Now back to my 4123DM Wide.  It's not a top heavy formation and there is a big gap between my centre forward and the midfield.  If I go cracking through matches without considering my passing or tempo, my midfield may struggle to keep up with the pace of play.  In that situation, forwards can become isolated and give away possession - usually through being tackled or taking a pot shot from outside the box.  I don't want that happening in this system - I want quality goal scoring chances - so I'll use passing and/or tempo to mitigate that risk.  Here's a screenie of my shots from the previous match vs Arsenal I mentioned in a post above where I won 4-0.  I used the Positive mentality but reduced Tempo (not passing):

Mostly decent quality chances from inside the box.  And I got those types of chances from the tactical settings - tempo, dribbling, roaming - and complimentary player abilities.

 

Match Engine

I don't want to get into a big long debate about apparent ME issues, especially concerning well documented concerns with forward's movement and crossing.  Improvements to the ME can be made.  What I will add however is that the ME is very far from being "broken" as I've seen mentioned elsewhere.  Possession, reduced crossing, forward movement are still very possible to achieve in FM19 as hopefully I've been demonstrating in this thread. Just take a look at some of those goals in the videos I've linked and the stats posted.

So yeh, the ME can be improved, but things are still well within our control if we understand what's happening and take the time to follow things through.  I really don't want that to sound patronising (sorry if it does) as I know many people do put in a lot of time and effort and still have issues.  When that happens I know it can be frustrating and so the ME can take the blame - you've put in the effort, it still doesn't work therefore it must be the ME.  Totally understandable and sometimes justified, especially when you see others mentioning the same things.  All I'm saying is don't give up hope and hopefully this thread has and will continue to give you new ideas to try out .

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi @herne79,

A quick help in analysing my tactic, and the thoughts i'm having after reading your thread.

I'm playing, like you, in a 4123 Wide DM formation, with the following setup:

DLF(a)

W(s)                                       IF(s)

MEZ(a)        DLP(s)

HB(d)

WB(s)        DC(d)         DC(d)      WB(a)

SK(s)

I usually play with balanced mentality, and in possession i use the play from defence and work ball into box instructions.

What i see in this setup, is that i usually have less possession than my opponent. I'm winning game, 77% win percentage, but my game is more a game of quick transitions.

From your thread, i come to the conclusion, that one of the issues for that is probably the tempo. By not reducing the tempo, i'm probably rushing the play (mainly because of the attacking duty of my forward), and not giving enough time for my MEZ and WBacks to come into play.

Is this correct?

 

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Is this correct?

Possibly, I'm guessing you haven't made adjustments from your Balanced mentality?  However, the Mez shouldn't have too many problems keeping up, especially with the attack duty.  It may be more a question of where he's running to and what use he's being when he gets there.

You also mention nothing about Pressing and Line of Engagement, both of which can play a big part in possession systems.  Have a read through the following regarding the Mezzala, especially the part concerning example suitable systems.

But it all depends on what you are trying to achieve.  You have a 77% win rate already, so do you want to run the risk of jeopardising that?  You may be safer trying things out in a throw away test save before mucking about too much with your actual game.

[Gegenklaus]

@herne79 did I understand your latest post that correctly, saying you have been using the Dribble Less TI? If so, could you expand a little further about your experiences with it? Whenever I have tried using it I always had a hard time spotting any difference.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[herne79]

6 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

@herne79 did I understand your latest post that correctly, saying you have been using the Dribble Less TI? If so, could you expand a little further about your experiences with it? Whenever I have tried using it I always had a hard time spotting any difference.

Yup, I use Dribble Less.  Players with a role PI telling them to dribble or players with a dribble more Trait will still play in that manner (albeit toned down a bit) but the basic principle is dribbling is a risky business.  So pass the ball to a player in space rather than try to dribble past a player all the time.  Unless your name is Messi.

If you're not seeing much difference, it may be due to using roles and/or players who will still do it some anyway.

[Keyzer Soze]

@herne79

Do you think that your aproach work well against teams that park the bus?

I ask this, because, playing with West Ham, you probably dont encounter too many teams parking the bus, at least in the first season.

The instructions that you talked in the previous posts, like work ball into the box, shorter pass and tempo, dribble less (i know you dont use them all at once) area all instructions that need space and movement by you players, or you'll end up with a very static attack with players passing ball around. This is something that can happen when facing teams that park the bus. 

 

[scwiffy]

16 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

 

 

For me what l like most about this video is the way Oxford and Diop just pause on the ball and wait to be pressed. Its not pretty to look at but it really helps open up space. If they hang onto the ball like that the AI often can't resist pressing and if anyone is pressing a DC then they are leaving/opening space behind them. I've often seen this with 2 DMs in some of my tactics, again not pretty but it draws out CMs and can open a glorious pocket up in the AM strata. I always thought this was down to 'waste time sometimes' TI????

Its also nice seeing that the 'possession' style is focused at the back, you watch Yarmalenko casually walk back until he gets the pass them BOOM it's like a different tactic. I'd have thought its a ridgid structure becasue of that but I didn't think ridgid structures suited possesion football

Edited January 29, 2019 by scwiffy

[herne79]

15 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

@herne79

Do you think that your aproach work well against teams that park the bus?

I ask this, because, playing with West Ham, you probably dont encounter too many teams parking the bus, at least in the first season.

The instructions that you talked in the previous posts, like work ball into the box, shorter pass and tempo, dribble less (i know you dont use them all at once) area all instructions that need space and movement by you players, or you'll end up with a very static attack with players passing ball around. This is something that can happen when facing teams that park the bus. 

 

I actually started to do a post about the parked bus (which I face quite a lot) but deleted it as you need the context of the complete system, which I haven't posted yet.  The system works just fine, although small tweaks are sometimes needed.

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

It's a product of the formation and I use those tactical settings to help the support - not to drive possession.  Additional possession is the by-product.

I think this is one of the most important statements you make. Possession is not the goal, it just helps with the overall goal, which is to win as many games as you possibly can. I think this gets lost when many people focus on a possession based tactics. You cannot get hung up on achieving X amount of possession and Y number of passes. Scoring goals is the most important thing you want to achieve, and possession is a tool to help unlock defences. 

Just a short note on the ME. It is definitely possible to get the type of football you want from it, using various tricks. I like my striker to be involved a lot in build ups, and this is not what you see at the moment. So I just dropped him into the AMC position (I too am playing what the game is calling 4141), and he is involved, scores, creates problems with the movement. I also use the fact that the ball often ends up out wide to create overloads that makes central space. It has worked wonderfully for me, I may eventually write about it when I get some more time to do it properly. The thing is, I have the confidence to do this, because I have a fair understanding of the ME, and know how this will affect my play and what I need to change to get the most out of it. The same for you. I think the problem is many players do not have the confidence or the know-how yet. The biggest problem, I think, is that some of these things should be a lot easier and more obvious to achieve. I really can understand the annoyance some people have.

Great thread though, I am really enjoying the way you are telling people how things work, and why. I find this much more useful than simply providing a setup and dealing with each part individually. The thread of FM19 thus far. 

[aderow]

Thought provoking thread. Funny as one of the questions that's been on my mind recently has been how much any given role/instruction impacts things around them? How much should I consider? 

In a sense, you've answered that @herne79. I should be considering everything. 

I was planning on going back to the drawing board. Now I have a different 'why' to utilise I as I work on my system.

 

[sporadicsmiles]

I actually also have a question that I forgot to add. You mention that you will use short passing, or lower tempo, or both, to modulate your tactic. Can you comment on when and why you choose each in a given match situation? What is your thought process that leads to "right, better lower the tempo"? Or is this something that will come later in the series. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Can you comment on when and why you choose each in a given match situation? What is your thought process that leads to "right, better lower the tempo"?

The million dollar question.

The simplest answer I can give is by reading the game and the stats.  But that's experience and hard to translate into a forum post.  The type of things I look out for (perhaps I should flow chart):

-  Is my midfield supporting my forward players effectively?  ("Effectively" meaning a passing option, positioned to play a forward pass, or even just be a physical presence to give the opposition something to think about).  Yes - leave well alone.  No - consider MC duty.  Attack duty - consider Tempo.  Support duty - try attack instead.  Did changing duty to Attack work?  No - consider Tempo.  (This is not the definitive list as other factors could be at work such as Mentality, the wrong role or even something as simple as the player having an off day).

-  Is our passing game working?  Yes - leave well alone.  No - why are my players not finding space?  Is my length too long, is my length too short?  (No sniggering).  Are they marked heavily?  Am I giving too much time to allow the opposition to regroup?

I could probably go on for pages, but in essence it all boils down to this: are my players doing what they are supposed to be doing in terms of their roles and the instructions I've given them?  If they are, we'll probably have a good match.  Of course if my system is rubbish we'll probably have a bad match.

But I can only tell if they are doing what they're supposed to by understanding what I've told them to do in the first place.  So is my Fullback (support) covering his wing defensively, supporting the midfield and providing the odd overlap?  Yes - tick move on.  Is my Advanced Playmaker (support) helping to dominate the midfield and supporting the attack?  No - sort it out.  And so on.

It perhaps sounds laborious but once you get your eye in it becomes quick and second nature.  Of course getting your eye can be the tricky part and comes with experience, which I know a lot of people struggle with.  I usually watch the first 10 mins or so of each half then switch to key highlights and keep an eye on the stats (pass completion rate and opposition shots can be good to watch out for).  Just don't ball watch and don't try to watch everything.  Break it down, focus on one thing at a time (at least to begin with).