Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

[Keyzer Soze]

A slightly more attacking version of the 4123 wide DM, but also with a good possession percentage.

For this tactic, the key point that make my possession go up was droping the "counter" TI. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Keyzer Soze

[TCSSkin]

On 11/02/2019 at 14:10, scwiffy said:

I'm not sure if its just more on FM19, but I'm noticing more and more how much PPMs override tactical instructions. In rare cases, as you have mentioned, you can use this to your benefit. But its only the really experienced players who can use this to good effect, most of the time I just find it gets in the way of my tactical idea and also makes good players lay to waste unless untrained (which takes time). I personally think PPMs should have less of an impact than they currently do. Its nice to play with things and it does lead to interesting roles and more variations but I think considering this is (mainly) a tactics game, PPMs shouldn't override TIs/PIs as much as they do.

I didn't know how much on impact they had until last night tbh, playing against a 442 so I tried making my full back Jack Stacey set too FB(D) so we have the numerical advantage if they try to counter attack with us, but he kept bombing up the wing no matter what, until i noticed his traits. Had to set the LB to defend which kind of ruined our Overlap with the LW but it is what it is.

  

Regardless, with a relatively LLM save (Luton Town in League One) I've used some of the guidlines established by Herne in this thread as well as other bits of reading and came up with this, front five all set to press more urgently and, CBs set to pass shorter and as is the keeper. The player's arent fantastic, but some others seem to have an idea that lower league teams can only play 4-4-2 Hoofball when that's simply false. I got Nuneaton promoted from the VNL to the Premier League in 10 years on FM 16 playing a possession orientated system as opposed to 'brexit football'.

 

The 2-1 loss to Charlton was particularly frustrating considering we mostly dominated, their first goal coming off the error regarding PPMs I've previously mentioned, with their second coming from an 86th minute set piece. One thing we seem to be struggling with is fashioning chances, although on the new public beta so lets see if the changes made to striker movement have any impact on that, if not it's something to look at.

[scratchmonkey]

I've been trying to build my own version of this tactical approach in my current save, where I'm managing Bayern in the 2024/25 season. Obviously I have a very strong squad and the opposition often tends to adjust their play in response to that, so I've been seeing a lot of what I believe people have been complaining about, which is *not* teams parking the bus.

Rather, it's more like this situation: we've got an away game to Ingolstadt, who are 16th in the table with 0 points 4 games into the season. Yet, by the end of the first half, it's the home team that has a 55%-45% advantage in possession, despite being up against a much better team set up to keep the ball. Why? 

By sitting down and watching the full match, I could tell why -- they were defending so deep and compact that we would effortlessly get the ball to one of our wide players deep in their territory, who would then be in a position to run at the defense (since these are the few players that we want to see dribbling), put in a cross (even if we tell them to do it less, they'll still do it sometimes), or go for a killer ball -- just by the nature of the game, the vast majority of these attempts are not going to result in a goal or even necessarily a chance. Most of them are going to be turnovers and since they're clustering their team around the box, odds are that they'll get to a loose ball first.

And then what happens? Well, a lot of the player on the ball waiting until they're closed down, then playing the simplest pass possible, going backwards if needed -- many many times they would hit a long-ish ball out to a winger who had dropped deep, then as soon as we closed in, the ball was circulated back down toward their own goal, usually making it all the way back to the keeper. I'll give them credit here, they were extremely disciplined and rarely gave the ball away in a situation where we could immediately take advantage. When they did have a turnover, they were almost all punts upfield once they'd played the ball back to the keeper and our press forced him to pass, or an outfield player blooting the ball straight into touch when under adequate pressure without an immediate outlet.

Add up these two things, us having a very easy time getting the ball to a packed final third and then naturally seeing our dynamic players try and make something happen and the other team wanting to hold the ball as much as possible, even to the point of taking the ball out of our third when they get it there, and you have a situation where the possession numbers are going to run counter to expectations.

So, what can be done? I think there's three broad approaches:

• Slow things down. Reduce your team mentality, and if necessary, change TI and PI to make sure that your players are circulating the ball as much as possible rather than trying risky things. It'll cut down on the turnovers and your possession % will tick up. The problem with this approach is that you'll be reducing the number of potential chances generated, and to what purpose? Just to get those possession #s high again?
• Be more aggressive and force the issue. Since most of their turnovers are coming from the opposition being pressured, turn up that pressure. Changing formation is a real consideration here just because the 4123 is fairly bottom-heavy -- there's a lot of approaches that you could take in that regard, I've had good success with changing to a 2-forward setup, since the players that you really want to be forcing into loose passing are the opposition rearguard. This may not actually increase possession by much, since you're likely to be regaining the ball in areas where your players will immediately attempt to generate a chance; it should increase the # of chances created, while at the same time making any potential counter-attacks that the other team makes that much more dangerous should they manage to connect on a long ball or manage to play their way through the press.
• Do nothing. So long as you're creating most, if not all, of the chances, then why get bothered about the possession % being tilted? The other team isn't likely to be generating their own chances, so the odds are in your favor that they will eventually make a mistake or one of your players will play the perfect ball. This is basically the approach that Herne advocates upthread -- it can be difficult to follow through with just because it involves being patient and not attempting to force the issue with tactical changes, which is our natural first response. It can also lead to frustrating matches where it finishes with a draw or loss with a shot count massively in your favor.

Thanks Herne again for this thread/discussion, it's been very interesting and I think successful at least in the sense that it's really changed my thinking about tactical development.

Edited February 15, 2019 by scratchmonkey

[zlatanera]

@scratchmonkey I've had games like that on my current Ajax save, and expecting more given we won the Champions League so will have a reputation boost, I'd never bothered shifting off key highlights though. Interesting to see your analysis because I imagine it will be the same for me when the likes of ADO Den Haag rack up 60% possession against me.

[99]

Em 15/02/2019 em 12:41, bluestillidie00 disse:

I didn't know how much on impact they had until last night tbh, playing against a 442 so I tried making my full back Jack Stacey set too FB(D) so we have the numerical advantage if they try to counter attack with us, but he kept bombing up the wing no matter what, until i noticed his traits. Had to set the LB to defend which kind of ruined our Overlap with the LW but it is what it is.

  

Regardless, with a relatively LLM save (Luton Town in League One) I've used some of the guidlines established by Herne in this thread as well as other bits of reading and came up with this, front five all set to press more urgently and, CBs set to pass shorter and as is the keeper. The player's arent fantastic, but some others seem to have an idea that lower league teams can only play 4-4-2 Hoofball when that's simply false. I got Nuneaton promoted from the VNL to the Premier League in 10 years on FM 16 playing a possession orientated system as opposed to 'brexit football'.

 

The 2-1 loss to Charlton was particularly frustrating considering we mostly dominated, their first goal coming off the error regarding PPMs I've previously mentioned, with their second coming from an 86th minute set piece. One thing we seem to be struggling with is fashioning chances, although on the new public beta so lets see if the changes made to striker movement have any impact on that, if not it's something to look at.

It was with a very similar approach that I was finally able to make my possession tactic working.

With the 4-1-2-3 (or 4-1-4-1 as it's in game) my team doesn't concede but also rarely scores. I was 8 games in a row without conceding goals but I rarely scored them either. When I score, I win for 1-0.

Then I changed to a 4-2-3-1 very similar to that one above (differences were the FBs in suport instead of defending, a BWM defending instead of a CM and two IFs since I don't like Wingers in FM) and the results dramatically improved, while keeping a possession above 60% and an attractive game being played in my screen. Tho I have to say I only played 6 games in this new setup, which is a small test sample.

@herne79this topic is fantastic. I wonder if you have any tips using a 4-2-3-1 instead of 4-1-4-1? Thanks a lot

EDIT: For what's worth I'm managing a portuguese 3rd tier team, União de Leiria. With a big team things may be different.

Edited February 16, 2019 by 99

[cristhianlinhatti]

My attempt for pep in City. 

[herne79]

6 minutes ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

My attempt for pep in City. 

Gotta love using United for that .

[cristhianlinhatti]

About attributes:

WOR/DET/STA to press and recovery the ball.

TEC/PAS/FIR/VIS/CMP to keep possession and create chances (defenders too.)

FIN/DRI/PAC/FLA/OTB for magic to happen.

[abdi1721]

 

4 hours ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

My attempt for pep in City. 

What about the TIs and PIs for this?

[Trimisiyu]

On 15/02/2019 at 16:41, bluestillidie00 said:

I didn't know how much on impact they had until last night tbh, playing against a 442 so I tried making my full back Jack Stacey set too FB(D) so we have the numerical advantage if they try to counter attack with us, but he kept bombing up the wing no matter what, until i noticed his traits. Had to set the LB to defend which kind of ruined our Overlap with the LW but it is what it is.

  

Regardless, with a relatively LLM save (Luton Town in League One) I've used some of the guidlines established by Herne in this thread as well as other bits of reading and came up with this, front five all set to press more urgently and, CBs set to pass shorter and as is the keeper. The player's arent fantastic, but some others seem to have an idea that lower league teams can only play 4-4-2 Hoofball when that's simply false. I got Nuneaton promoted from the VNL to the Premier League in 10 years on FM 16 playing a possession orientated system as opposed to 'brexit football'.

 

The 2-1 loss to Charlton was particularly frustrating considering we mostly dominated, their first goal coming off the error regarding PPMs I've previously mentioned, with their second coming from an 86th minute set piece. One thing we seem to be struggling with is fashioning chances, although on the new public beta so lets see if the changes made to striker movement have any impact on that, if not it's something to look at.

Hi @bluestillidie00 - on another topic please. I see you using a different font on the football manager game. Can you please let me know how this can be done? I would also like to change my fonts. Appreciate your response  

[TCSSkin]

1 hour ago, Trimisiyu said:

Hi @bluestillidie00 - on another topic please. I see you using a different font on the football manager game. Can you please let me know how this can be done? I would also like to change my fonts. Appreciate your response  

 

If you juts want to change the fonts, download a base skin and follow this tutorial

https://community.sigames.com/topic/428428-fm18guide-skinning-guide-part-3-changing-the-font-settings/

 

[herne79]

The Parked Bus, Part 2

In my previous post we saw how "do nothing" can be a valid option.  But what if it's not a valid option?  This is what happened in my match against Boavista (away).

Initial Line Up

Still early in the season, so continuing with the Balanced mentality for the time being.  We're pre-match heavy favourites and Boavista are using the same 4123DM formation.  At half time it's 0-0 and these are the half time stats:

For me, this time the "do nothing" options is off the agenda.  All we're doing is kicking the ball around aimlessly with zero penetration.  And Boavista have actually caught us on the break a couple of times.  So this is what I want to do at half time:

-  Reduce my aimless passing.

- Increase my chances.

- Be wary of Boavista's occasional breaks.

And this is how I shake things up a little at half-time:

Changes made:

Mentality upped from Balanced to Positive.  This should increase the risk I'm taking, making the entire team more forward thinking instead of sideways thinking.

Much Shorter Passing removed.  We're kicking the ball around too much, so lets reduce that and up the tempo a bit too.

Work Ball into Box removed.  Similar reasoning to remove shorter passing.

Shoot on Sight added.  We're not going to score without shooting as the first half showed.  So lets start shooting.

Line of Engagement changed.  All we're really doing is pressing a packed defence so high up the pitch that they're simply clearing the ball and we then just immediately bang our heads back against the same wall.  So lets give them a little more time on the ball when we lose it to see if that frees things up a bit.  What I mean by this is, let's see if the additional time I allow the opposition to have the ball will spread them out a bit into their attacking shape before I nick the ball back and (hopefully) use that extra space I should now have.  And that's where the above TI changes should have an impact.

Defensive Line changed.  Upping mentality ups the def line by default, so I reduce this at the same time to keep an eye on potential counter attacks / balls over the top.

AP-attack changed to CM-attack.  Hoping to generate a little extra movement with a better runner from deep behind a support duty striker.  Pizzi also has the Trait "Gets into opposition area" which should help.  Arguably I could also have changed the AML to a Winger from the IF to stretch the play a little but I wanted to see how this worked first.

Now I realise that's quite a few changes and perhaps not how I usually go about things.  But I already know my tactic needs tweaking before I start matches as I've gone over board on possession vs attacking.  I'm not treating this as a proper save here and some of those changes mentioned above would be permanent changes from the start of matches if this were an actual save.  So really I just want to demonstrate the thought process and how things are all linked together - one thing changes which will have a knock on effect in other areas and so they get tweaked in turn.

And the end result?  We won 3-0 (two from open play, one from a free kick).

As hoped, the second half saw less possession, more shots and less passes than the first half, and Boavista didn't have another shot.  Our shots weren't exactly accurate - and several were fairly long range efforts too - but that's "Shoot on Sight" for you.

I do want to stress here that this is not some sort of "magic formula" for getting past the bus.  In fact this is quite possibly the first time I've ever tried such a combination of changes.  For me at least there is no "typical" way of breaking down the bus, it's simply reading the match + stats and trying things out in a (hopefully) logical manner.  Sometimes it works, occasionally it doesn't.  Looking back on it there were changes I made I didn't really like and didn't seem to have much of an impact - but we scored so I left things alone as it was ok.

[Experienced Defender]

@herne79 A great example of how relatively few tweaks can turn things around if you properly analyze your tactic, instead of "panicking" and making dramatic changes out of desperation, without a clear idea why you are doing what you are doing. I particularly like your decision to use the "Shoot on sight" TI (and to good effect), which seems to be extremely unpopular among the forum community  

[cristhianlinhatti]

We was losing 0-2. (433)

 

So... in some moments we have to be insane.

 

 

and...

 

 

football is magic  

[scratchmonkey]

Herne's response to the Boavista game matches up with the changes that I often make at halftime when I'm not generating any chances, although I haven't tried the Shoot on Sight TI on yet -- instead I selectively add Shoot More Often to the players in my front 5 that have decent Long Shots/Technique stats.

When I lower my defensive line and my LOE, I tick on Counter as well, as I hope that winning back possession further up the pitch will allow for more space to attack into and I want to take advantage of that as much as possible.

Another thing to keep an eye on is fouls, if the other team is piling them up I will turn on Play for Set Pieces since even though I don't have exceptional dead-ball experts (an admitted weakness of my roster building to date) I've got my routines set up well enough that we stand a better chance of grabbing a goal from them than butting our heads against a team packed around their 18.

Edited February 19, 2019 by scratchmonkey

[ChuckMoritz]

I think I finally did it, thanks to the incredibly helpful tips in here. It's still not perfect but I think this is as far as I'll come in this ME.

I know this isn't unheard of with Bayern especially, but defeating Barca while trying to emulate Pep's crazy ideas will always be a highlight. 

It took a lot of time, but eventually I was able to figure out a tactic that gave me what I needed and wanted without having too many obvious flaws. This tactic will struggle against teams that park the bus because the 'Cross from Byline' PI is still busted and the Full Backs will just launch cross after cross from deep but that's not something I can fix as a player without SI adressing that in the ME. For now, I'm very happy and I just hope FM20 adresses the final few quirks that keep tactics like these from fully blossoming.

 

Cheers to everyone who shared their thoughts in here!

[Pep468]

9 hours ago, ChuckMoritz said:

I think I finally did it, thanks to the incredibly helpful tips in here. It's still not perfect but I think this is as far as I'll come in this ME.

I know this isn't unheard of with Bayern especially, but defeating Barca while trying to emulate Pep's crazy ideas will always be a highlight. 

It took a lot of time, but eventually I was able to figure out a tactic that gave me what I needed and wanted without having too many obvious flaws. This tactic will struggle against teams that park the bus because the 'Cross from Byline' PI is still busted and the Full Backs will just launch cross after cross from deep but that's not something I can fix as a player without SI adressing that in the ME. For now, I'm very happy and I just hope FM20 adresses the final few quirks that keep tactics like these from fully blossoming.

 

Cheers to everyone who shared their thoughts in here!

Thanks for sharing pal! Would you be able to either attatch a download link or share the player instructions as I can’t wait to test out this tactic and tinker with it! Thanks

Edited February 22, 2019 by Pep468

[abdi1721]

On 21/02/2019 at 12:21, ChuckMoritz said:

I think I finally did it, thanks to the incredibly helpful tips in here. It's still not perfect but I think this is as far as I'll come in this ME.

I know this isn't unheard of with Bayern especially, but defeating Barca while trying to emulate Pep's crazy ideas will always be a highlight. 

It took a lot of time, but eventually I was able to figure out a tactic that gave me what I needed and wanted without having too many obvious flaws. This tactic will struggle against teams that park the bus because the 'Cross from Byline' PI is still busted and the Full Backs will just launch cross after cross from deep but that's not something I can fix as a player without SI adressing that in the ME. For now, I'm very happy and I just hope FM20 adresses the final few quirks that keep tactics like these from fully blossoming.

 

Cheers to everyone who shared their thoughts in here!

Really want to see the PIs in this or a dl link. Want to see how it plays out.

[Ein]

On 27/01/2019 at 00:30, herne79 said:

Team/Player Instructions - if I'm going to win the ball back nearer to their goal than my own, I need my players to engage accordingly.  This is where FM19 comes into it's own with the new Line of Engagement instruction, so up it goes.  But when my players are at that Line of Engagement they need to know how to behave (ie., with a high intensity press).  I could use the Team Instruction to adjust pressing intensity, but I'd run into the same issue as described above.  So I target my front 5 with specific pressing instructions and leave my defenders alone.  I could use the TI and then tell my defence to press less, but that's just over complicating things.

Does the team instruction affect all the players in the same way irrespective of their role? I always assumed that defensive players automatically press less.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Ein said:

Does the team instruction affect all the players in the same way irrespective of their role? I always assumed that defensive players automatically press less.

@herne79 will (hopefully) correct me if I'm wrong 

Here is how I see that: defenders (especially CBs) will press (comparatively) less than the rest of your players/roles, whatever the team pressing intensity you select. But the pressing TI will also affect their pressing levels, because it affects the whole team. So if you set team pressing to a higher level, defenders will press more (urgently) than they would if team pressing was lower. You can mitigate this somewhat by manually reducing their pressing intensity via PIs.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Ein said:

Does the team instruction affect all the players in the same way irrespective of their role? I always assumed that defensive players automatically press less.

 

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@herne79 will (hopefully) correct me if I'm wrong 

Here is how I see that: defenders (especially CBs) will press (comparatively) less than the rest of your players/roles, whatever the team pressing intensity you select. But the pressing TI will also affect their pressing levels, because it affects the whole team. So if you set team pressing to a higher level, defenders will press more (urgently) than they would if team pressing was lower. You can mitigate this somewhat by manually reducing their pressing intensity via PIs.

That's actually a good question and I have to say I don't know.  Does the Pressing TI affect everyone?  Yes.  Does it affect everyone by the same amount?  Unsure and I'm not going to speculate so I'll find out .

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Does it affect everyone by the same amount?  Unsure

I'm also unsure about the amount the pressing TI affects different players/roles. DL can also have an effect on this. At least it had in FM18 (because when you moved the DL higher/lower, the pressing level would automatically inrease/decrease slightly as well). I guess it's still the case in FM19, but is no longer visible in the tactics creator.

[MrGreen555]

I seem to get lots of possession but not a lot of chances, any ideas? 

 

[herne79]

6 hours ago, Ein said:

Does the team instruction affect all the players in the same way irrespective of their role? I always assumed that defensive players automatically press less.

 

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

@herne79 will (hopefully) correct me if I'm wrong 

Basically yes.  Assuming nothing else changes, altering the TI for Pressing affects all players the same regardless of role.  So (overly) simplistically, change the TI to Press More and all players get +1 to Pressing for example.

Obviously that doesn't mean all players end up with the same amount of pressing as each role has a different starting point and other factors can also have an influence, but looking at the TI in isolation then yes it has the same effect on all roles.

(Confirmed with the SI boffins).

[herne79]

2 hours ago, MrGreen555 said:

I seem to get lots of possession but not a lot of chances, any ideas? 

 

Without knowing your system it's hard to be specific, however in terms of ideas (which could have a greater or lesser impact depending on your system):

Untick work ball into box; remove shorter passing; increase Mentality; give a midfielder an attack duty; make the whole team more creative; substitute more attacking and/or more creative players; reduce the number of support duties used; use pass into space; and so on.  Honestly there is lots you can do to reduce possession and create more chances, so try things out and see what works for you and your team .

[MrGreen555]

34 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Without knowing your system it's hard to be specific, however in terms of ideas (which could have a greater or lesser impact depending on your system):

Untick work ball into box; remove shorter passing; increase Mentality; give a midfielder an attack duty; make the whole team more creative; substitute more attacking and/or more creative players; reduce the number of support duties used; use pass into space; and so on.  Honestly there is lots you can do to reduce possession and create more chances, so try things out and see what works for you and your team .

It's quite basic, just a really trying to get to grips with a tika taka style really, see below...

Does removing those instructions still keep possession high?

Cheers

 

 

[Garrlor]

57 minutes ago, MrGreen555 said:

It's quite basic, just a really trying to get to grips with a tika taka style really, see below...

Does removing those instructions still keep possession high?

Cheers

 

 

I would say way way too many In Possesion TI's there mate. Looking at it, you have pretty much 3 playmakers in the middle (Half Back is a bit of a strange playmaker/defender), 2 BPD's who want to pass the ball, IF's on support on both sides and a F9 who wants to drop in and around. Not one person is attacking any space, in any way shape or form. Have you tried watching a match in full? I would imagine your AP and DLP spend most of it passing between themselves while your front 3 do very little. You are asking your team to play very slowly and carefully (tempo), only pass to someone nearby (shorter passing), to work the ball into the box (yet more short passing and lower tempo) while trying to take more risks. If you have no one trying to get in behind or move in from the sides, how do you take more risks? Your team are basically being told to be very cautious with the ball, to take thier time over every move and only keep the ball in close proximity while wasting as much time as possible.

Your wingbacks should naturally try and overlap, check thier PI's to see if they have got the get further forward trait. If they do, you dont need to change up the risk by having them bomb on even more.

Start with an idea of how you want to see play unfold. Give it a balanced mentality, then pick some roles. Once you are happy with your roles, add in a couple of TI's that you think you might need (hint, you dont need to drop tempo and passing length, one affects the other). Remember work ball into the box will affect both passing length and tempo by reducing them slightly. If you want to counter press, you don't need to go full balls to the wall on pressing. Select players can press harder, but your team will naturally try and win the ball back with counter press for a few seconds before reverting to shape. You are basically asking them to chase the ball down regardless at the moment, which will probably see your team running round the pitch like a mob of 11 schoolboys chasing the ball.

If you think of Tika Taka as Pep played it, Barca kept the ball recycled at all times, always had an out ball and would move up the pitch until they would probe. They were not adverse to switching play to the other flank to exploit space, with Dani Alves bombing on to great affect when Messi cut inside from the right. there is no reason you couldnt do the same with your team with your left back as a CWB on attack pushing past Hazard who is going to command a lot of attention. You should get loads of space that way. I would then think about a DM(De) for Tonali, who naturally brings the ball out of the defence and dictates the tempo of play a la Biscuits. You probably need to think about a CM(Su) or Carr on the left at that point, because you dont have peak Xavi or Inniesta. A DLP on support might work if they have some good defensive attributes.

Mentality plays a big part here. You can be really positive going forward on a cautious mentality when you are looking to keep the ball and move forward, as long as your players have the PI's and your TI's complement that. Cautious just reduces the risk the whole team takes, you can still have players that are paid to take the risks with the passing do the damage (Look at Pogba at United under Ole, he is taking all of the risky passes on).

Edited February 26, 2019 by Garrlor
Adding more detail

[Garrlor]

I have just thrown a quick JPG up with an example of how I might start to build a tactic (please ignore players, I am just using this for illistrative purposes) to match what you might be thinking of.

So I have an attacking CWB on the left who I am expecting to push beyond Rashford, who will be cutting inside into the box. I have 2 CD's on defend, as I have a DM on De in front of them who will be there to recycle the ball. An IWB is used on the right to move into midfield to help support retaining the ball as I am using an AP(A) who I am expecting to get forward to be a danger in and around the box. The Raumdeuter (space exploiter) is in there to make runs into the box to try and get on the end of anything the IF or CWB provide on the right while supporting the AP by making runs in behind the defence. The Carr is there to shuttle between the lines and provide some defensive support to the left back who is likely to spend his time camped near the opposistion box and for the lazy IF (As there is no other type of IF in this version of FM ;)). The AP is there to move forward with the ball, create opportunities and potentially get in the box to score goals as well. I have picked a CF(SU) as I want a goal threat who can link up play at the same time, someone who is as adept at playing the ball into the path of the RDM and IF as he is at finishing off crosses.

The next portion is to examine each player you pick and how they fit in. PI's can have a huge influence (God damn Sanchez and his desire to dribble more than a teething baby!), and will change how the role plays. I can imagine that Mata with his intelligence and drops deep to get the ball PI might make a very unconventional but effective RDM, or Lingaard with cuts inside and plays 1-2's. Your wing backs will be the key point of failure here. An IWB who wants to get forward as much as possible, hug the touchline and cross more often will find himself in no-mans land more often than not. So you might instruct him to be a NNFB, just to curb his attacking instincts and keep him back to support the midfield by gettting him to stay narrower when you have the ball.

For TI's I have started sparce, with a balanced mentaility. I don't want to up risk taking, as I don't know how much risk my players will naturally take (remember PI's play a massive part here!). Work the ball into the box is a given as that is what we want from Tika-Taka, patient probing. This reduces our tempo and passing length slightly, which means we can leave those set to default for now. Low crosses as I want my players running onto the ball for a potential tap in rather than trying to head the ball. In transistion, I just want my players to counter press (5-10 seconds of pressing to try and win the ball) before reverting to a defensive shape. I have left counter off, as if the opportunity is there they will counter, if not they should default to keeping the ball. Distributing to centre backs and full backs just to see what works, and to avoid the press by giving your keeper options either side. A higher defensive line and higher line of engagment compresses space a little, and tells your pressing players to press that little higher without going full out to start with.

A tactic like this should see at least 3 games (as per Cleon), but you should feel free to change things up if you see something you dont like. if you are struggling to keep possesion, change passing length or tempo. If you arent creating enough chances, tick be more expressive to see if that increased risk helps (I would probably uncick WBIB at that point though). Be slow and methodical, and you should start to see resultsl. Make notes of what works and what doesn't, and watch the full match. Pick players, and follow them for a time to see what they do and if you like it.

There are issues with this ME, but that doesn't mean you cant be successful with your own creations if you think about it and test in the right way.

[Ein]

13 hours ago, herne79 said:

Basically yes.  Assuming nothing else changes, altering the TI for Pressing affects all players the same regardless of role.  So (overly) simplistically, change the TI to Press More and all players get +1 to Pressing for example.

Obviously that doesn't mean all players end up with the same amount of pressing as each role has a different starting point and other factors can also have an influence, but looking at the TI in isolation then yes it has the same effect on all roles.

Interesting, thanks.

So if we consider a player (say a BBM) in the following setups:
Setup 1: TI 'more urgent' pressing
Setup 2: TI 'standard' pressing & PI 'more urgent' pressing

Should the player press with the same urgency?

[Experienced Defender]

I would assume that particular player will press more urgently in the 2nd setup (provided all other relevant settings, including the mentality, are entirely identical in both setups).

But the question is definitely for people of the SI.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Experienced Defender

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Ein said:

Should the player press with the same urgency?

Open the player's Player Instructions screen and compare the Pressing green bar in both setups you mention.  If it's the same then yes the player will press by essentially the same amount.

[MrGreen555]

13 hours ago, Garrlor said:

I have just thrown a quick JPG up with an example of how I might start to build a tactic (please ignore players, I am just using this for illistrative purposes) to match what you might be thinking of.

So I have an attacking CWB on the left who I am expecting to push beyond Rashford, who will be cutting inside into the box. I have 2 CD's on defend, as I have a DM on De in front of them who will be there to recycle the ball. An IWB is used on the right to move into midfield to help support retaining the ball as I am using an AP(A) who I am expecting to get forward to be a danger in and around the box. The Raumdeuter (space exploiter) is in there to make runs into the box to try and get on the end of anything the IF or CWB provide on the right while supporting the AP by making runs in behind the defence. The Carr is there to shuttle between the lines and provide some defensive support to the left back who is likely to spend his time camped near the opposistion box and for the lazy IF (As there is no other type of IF in this version of FM ;)). The AP is there to move forward with the ball, create opportunities and potentially get in the box to score goals as well. I have picked a CF(SU) as I want a goal threat who can link up play at the same time, someone who is as adept at playing the ball into the path of the RDM and IF as he is at finishing off crosses.

The next portion is to examine each player you pick and how they fit in. PI's can have a huge influence (God damn Sanchez and his desire to dribble more than a teething baby!), and will change how the role plays. I can imagine that Mata with his intelligence and drops deep to get the ball PI might make a very unconventional but effective RDM, or Lingaard with cuts inside and plays 1-2's. Your wing backs will be the key point of failure here. An IWB who wants to get forward as much as possible, hug the touchline and cross more often will find himself in no-mans land more often than not. So you might instruct him to be a NNFB, just to curb his attacking instincts and keep him back to support the midfield by gettting him to stay narrower when you have the ball.

For TI's I have started sparce, with a balanced mentaility. I don't want to up risk taking, as I don't know how much risk my players will naturally take (remember PI's play a massive part here!). Work the ball into the box is a given as that is what we want from Tika-Taka, patient probing. This reduces our tempo and passing length slightly, which means we can leave those set to default for now. Low crosses as I want my players running onto the ball for a potential tap in rather than trying to head the ball. In transistion, I just want my players to counter press (5-10 seconds of pressing to try and win the ball) before reverting to a defensive shape. I have left counter off, as if the opportunity is there they will counter, if not they should default to keeping the ball. Distributing to centre backs and full backs just to see what works, and to avoid the press by giving your keeper options either side. A higher defensive line and higher line of engagment compresses space a little, and tells your pressing players to press that little higher without going full out to start with.

A tactic like this should see at least 3 games (as per Cleon), but you should feel free to change things up if you see something you dont like. if you are struggling to keep possesion, change passing length or tempo. If you arent creating enough chances, tick be more expressive to see if that increased risk helps (I would probably uncick WBIB at that point though). Be slow and methodical, and you should start to see resultsl. Make notes of what works and what doesn't, and watch the full match. Pick players, and follow them for a time to see what they do and if you like it.

There are issues with this ME, but that doesn't mean you cant be successful with your own creations if you think about it and test in the right way.

I've had a go with this over a few games, possession is at about 50-55%, chance creation is quite low though, probably less that one CCC a game, defensively solid though...

Any ideas?

[YasoKuul]

Am 21.2.2019 um 18:21 schrieb ChuckMoritz:

I think I finally did it, thanks to the incredibly helpful tips in here. It's still not perfect but I think this is as far as I'll come in this ME.

I know this isn't unheard of with Bayern especially, but defeating Barca while trying to emulate Pep's crazy ideas will always be a highlight. 

It took a lot of time, but eventually I was able to figure out a tactic that gave me what I needed and wanted without having too many obvious flaws. This tactic will struggle against teams that park the bus because the 'Cross from Byline' PI is still busted and the Full Backs will just launch cross after cross from deep but that's not something I can fix as a player without SI adressing that in the ME. For now, I'm very happy and I just hope FM20 adresses the final few quirks that keep tactics like these from fully blossoming.

 

Cheers to everyone who shared their thoughts in here!

I was surprised by the number of crosses in most pictures of these different possession tactics. I never noticed so many crosses in my own possession tactic visually and by using the match analyse feature. I rechecked the stats of older matches and by using the match stats widget in game and noticed that the number of crosses is always different. It seems that the match stats widget counts more passes as crosses as the analyse feature. Has anyone noticed this as well and can explain it?

[Garrlor]

21 hours ago, MrGreen555 said:

I've had a go with this over a few games, possession is at about 50-55%, chance creation is quite low though, probably less that one CCC a game, defensively solid though...

Any ideas?

So if you have a good read through the thread, there are quite a few ways you can try to skin this cat.

Untick WBIB as a start, then add in a lower tempo with be more expressive perhaps. This means your players should take the appropriate level of risk when passing into the final third but do it in a considered way. You can try upping the mentality which will increase passing length and tempo slightly, but increase team risk at the same time. You can tinker with PI's to make your front 4/5 take more risks or get further forward to support the attacks. Change roles, maybe go from an AP(A) to a CM(A) to provide more of a physical presence in the box.

I am glad that it is defensively solid for you. I would note that both my CM's, IF's and ST have Roam from position ticked, so that they move around the pitch more to offer passing options, which is probably why I have decent possesion in the screenie below (I played this against a parked bus) who were deterimined to keep the ball with thier formation and not venture forward.

I didnt change anything in this tactic during the match either, which I probably would have done for real as we were rushing things too much, hence all the blocked shots. I would rather have had 15 good shots than 27 bad ones, which is normally where I sit in a game.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Garrlor

[Bruce Drundrige]

My two cents on this thread/style of play. This is my favourite FM formation and my preferred way to play but marrying the two - and creating an identity for my main save - has been a struggle.

As has been mentioned, simply copying the system exactly didn't work for the players in my squad but the overall principals have helped develop an overall system and identity to work with. I'm now expanding it to all of my coaches and staff members, applying attribute specific scout searches and selling players without the required work rate for the press.

What's great about threads like this are the reminders that there lots of tools available, the way the front three/four/five press versus simply using the default pressing instructions in the TIs is great. 

To cut a long story short, the original idea relates to "can you hog possession with intent". Can you still create lots of chances and be 'attacking' while keeping the ball. Well...

Cautious mentality, away from home, my first season in the Premiership, against a team it took my 9 attempts to beat...

Edited March 1, 2019 by Edinton

[Luizinho]

I just re-read section 3 (Passing and Movement) and you mention how you use either lower tempo or shorter passing to help ensure the forwards get support from the midfield. I've probably missed something but I was wandering in what scenario you lean more towards lowering the tempo or reducing the passing range (why would you pick on over the other)?

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

I just re-read section 3 (Passing and Movement) and you mention how you use either lower tempo or shorter passing to help ensure the forwards get support from the midfield. I've probably missed something but I was wandering in what scenario you lean more towards lowering the tempo or reducing the passing range (why would you pick on over the other)?

There isn't really a scenario.  The whole thread is intended as a demonstration as to what's possible, it's not a "real" save that I have going if you see what I mean.  It just shows some of the tools we have available in order to pass along ideas and principles, so yeh Tempo and/or Shorter Passing can help things along but it depends on what you want from your players and your team.  Experiment, try things out .

[lfc7]

First of all i would like to say thanks herne79 this thread has really helped me understand the game a lot more.  I've been playing FM for a good while and a few years ago decided to make my own tactics as it wasn't enjoyable using other peoples. I did ok but still didn't understand certain things which this thread has helped address. I am by no means now a expert (far from it ha).

In my Bayer Leverkusen game i am happy with a tactic i use for home games but would struggle away. i have now created a tactic for away games based on your advice and my next away game was a 3-1 win at Lepzig 

Just a question if i may ?

I have read the whole thread but sorry if i have missed it already been answered, you say you don't worry about weather or opposition instructions but what about opposition scout report ? do you use any of that advice to tweak your tactic (not asking what you do you just if you use the advice) or do you just see how the game goes first and take it from there ? 

[herne79]

40 minutes ago, lfc7 said:

what about opposition scout report ? do you use any of that advice to tweak your tactic (not asking what you do you just if you use the advice) or do you just see how the game goes first and take it from there ? 

I pay no attention to opposition scout reports and just see how the game starts.

That's just me though (well, not just me but you know what I mean ) so if you prefer looking at the scout reports, knock yourself out .  What I would advise though is whether you look at the reports or not, always watch how the game goes.

[lfc7]

30 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I pay no attention to opposition scout reports and just see how the game starts.

That's just me though (well, not just me but you know what I mean ) so if you prefer looking at the scout reports, knock yourself out .  What I would advise though is whether you look at the reports or not, always watch how the game goes.

Ok thanks that's what i am trying to do, watch the game and see if what i want is happening. Guess it just takes a bit of practice ha.

[nitido]

I'm not too sure with this configuration...

[Luizinho]

9 hours ago, nitido said:

I'm not too sure with this configuration...

How have your results been so far? I lineup fairly similar to this.

 

My biggest question so far is the relationship between a Mezella and a Treq and whether they can compliment each other. Has anyone else used this combo?

[Marbah]

Hi guys,

Can't seem to be able to implement this tactic successfully scoring wise. i get the ball, i get chances, i get the shots but somehow my AC Milan side fails to score.

[herne79]

8 minutes ago, Marbah said:

Can't seem to be able to implement this tactic successfully scoring wise.

Which tactic?  What have you tried differently (if anything)?

[Marbah]

6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Which tactic?  What have you tried differently (if anything)?

What i've tried https://imgur.com/a/Q7esTgM and the results. While winning most of the games, my strikers/if/mids failed to score from various position. Not sure if its the patch or me or the training (let the assman figure it out).

 

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, nitido said:

'm not too sure with this configuration...

Just by taking a look at your roles and duties... all the front 5 are (predominantly) creators and "roamers" , but none providing real and concrete penetration. 

I suppose Herne will give you a more detailed answer, since you posted in his thread (and obviously tried to copy his tactic, but without understanding the context).

[nitido]

39 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Just by taking a look at your roles and duties... all the front 5 are (predominantly) creators and "roamers" , but none providing real and concrete penetration. 

I suppose Herne will give you a more detailed answer, since you posted in his thread (and obviously tried to copy his tactic, but without understanding the context).

I changed the IF to attack role to try to get more penetration, I guess together with the mezzala will attack enough space in front of them. I have also changed the trequartista for an advanced playmaker. 

[Luizinho]

I'm soo disillusioned at the moment as I cant to get any kind of consistency. Playing as Barca and try to apply certain principles to my Barca save. After a really positive 1-0 defeat of Napoli at Home, we lose 0-3 away at Real Sociedad. To be honest, one goal was a counter from our own corner and another was a set-piece; but I'm not confident going into games. Without watching the match, can anyone see any glaring issues here? My BBM has 'Get Further Forward' to try and add some penetration (which I think is an issue).

Edit: I've also just noticed I attempted just under 60 crosses, even though I tell the Wing-backs and WIngers to cross less.

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Luizinho

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, nitido said:

I changed the IF to attack role to try to get more penetration, I guess together with the mezzala will attack enough space in front of them. I have also changed the trequartista for an advanced playmaker

Adv PM on which role?

Btw, don't look just at roles and duties but also the players who play each of them. I managed Spurs in FM18, and know very well the quality of these players (though my style of play was much different, as well as the formation - 4231).

And your flanks are very vulnerable with this setup of roles and duties. Plus, much higher DL can also be a source of defensive issues (your CBs are very good defenders, but not particularly fast, so they could struggle against pacy and technical strikers with good movement). Lloris is a world-class GK, but his attributes do not suggest he is quite suitable for a SK on support duty (I played him as a SK, but on defend).

[nitido]

45 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Adv PM on which role?

Btw, don't look just at roles and duties but also the players who play each of them. I managed Spurs in FM18, and know very well the quality of these players (though my style of play was much different, as well as the formation - 4231).

And your flanks are very vulnerable with this setup of roles and duties. Plus, much higher DL can also be a source of defensive issues (your CBs are very good defenders, but not particularly fast, so they could struggle against pacy and technical strikers with good movement). Lloris is a world-class GK, but his attributes do not suggest he is quite suitable for a SK on support duty (I played him as a SK, but on defend).

In support.

 

In the player instructions, the IF in attack remains wider, while the AP remains more closed.