Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

[FreezingTable]

Does anyone know how to reduce corners in a match? Trying trying to play possession football and keep the ball on the ground. I don’t like my team to have a lot of crosses but when my players are trying to cross, they always get blocked. I’m have ticked the “hit early crosses” on my fullbacks but they dwell in the ball and the cross gets blocked. I also have ticked “shorter passing” in the PI-tab. I now have to deny my fullbacks to get into crossing position and make them play deeper. Mabey 2 out of 10-15 crosses actually gets into the box. The rest ends up with a corner. 

 

Does anyone have any tips for this? 

[SdsuRaiders]

Another season another promotion thanks to this thread! I’ve found out the smallest tweaks can be the difference. The second season was more difficult in the vanarama National for me and learned more about my tactic. Small changes  like changing one of my fullbacks to attack (usually have both in support) would be enough to make the difference. I see work ball into the box works for some of you guys but my guys don’t have the passing/vision/anticipation/and off ball to do so. First season I would change my mentality from positive to attacking when down and my tactic was just crap on attacking. 

I have two if’s one on attack and one on support) the one on attack scored way more goals then my support one on my first season but that was the opposite come second season. 

One thing I started doing was head into each game with a positive mentality and once I got a lead I would ride out the game on a cautious mentality with some tweaks. This was my biggest mid season adjustment that help me solidify my title imo. I think it could be in my head but for some reason I scored a lot more from corners with a cautious mentality. Also you have to adjust to your players traits. Dm with a get forward whenever possible trait was not cutting it for me. 

 

Best fm save ever. For everyone asking people in the thread how they have their tactic set up, and what their pi’s are. Don’t. (Jk but seriously) Make the tactic yourself and you will feel 80 times better about yourself. And most importantly I guarantee you will have more success as everyone has different players up against different competition.

 

Going into my third pre season and  I’m going to try to incorporate a mezzela into my tactic and I’m pumped.

Highly doubt I get three straight promotions so I’ll be asking for help here shortly.

 

[herne79]

40 minutes ago, SdsuRaiders said:

Highly doubt I get three straight promotions so I’ll be asking for help here shortly.

Good job on the promotions.

Just remember that it's good to be ambitious but don't get carried away.  Improve your team when you can and - if things don't go quite as you hope to begin with - to be patient.  Your Board's expectations probably differ to your own .

[Bigpapa42]

Thank you tons for this thread, Herne. 

Been managing in Brazil and using the same 4-3-3 gegenpress that I've used throughout FM19. But after the first season ended, I wanted something different and happened to give this thread a read. Used the ideas here to create a possession 4-3-3 and its been quite interesting. I'm still tweaking and perfecting, but man, its been fun so far. Got the side rolling with it through the state championship, which is mostly a lot of matches that are mismatches in quality. But played two legs against Racing (who won the Copa Libertadores) in the Recopa Sudamericana and won it with 1-0 and 1-1. Just had a match against River Plate in the Libertadores that was similar - 1-0 win and they had 3 shots on goal all match. We aren't scoring as freely as we were with the gegenpress, but I'm honestly shocked by how defensively sound this has been. We dominate possession in most matches and simply don't give up chances. 

Still tweaking things but I don't want to push that too far. The football is pretty and fairly fun to watch, but its also damned effective. The squad is a typical Brazil mix - aging veterans with declining physicals and youngsters. I'm curious to see how things improve as the overall quality in the side creeps up. 

[Razor940]

@herne79 what are your thoughts on instructing CMs to be open? It makes sense making them exploting the half spaces left open by the IFs with keep wide.

[herne79]

15 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

@herne79 what are your thoughts on instructing CMs to be open? It makes sense making them exploting the half spaces left open by the IFs with keep wide.

Sorry, not sure I'm following this question.  You want an Inside Forward to keep wide (isn't that just a Winger?) and then use a central midfielder to run into the space that a regular IF might otherwise use?  Is that the general idea?

If so then a Mezzala may be what you are after as a Mezz is designed to run forwards towards the outside channels rather than staying more centrally as a CM might.  A Box to Box Midfielder may also be suitable due to his in built roaming.  You could add the Roaming PI to a CM but he'd still behave slightly differently to a B2B.

[zlatanera]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

You want an Inside Forward to keep wide (isn't that just a Winger?)

Personally I've found its useful to make them stretch the play more so you don't find them narrow too early (you still do, but it seems to decrease the likelihood a bit). It never appears quite like that, but going for similar to what Pep likes to do with his wide players - I remember there was an anecdote about him drawing a line on the field, or setting a cone or something and forbidding Sterling from coming narrower than it until he got what he was going for. 

[Razor940]

1 hora atrás, herne79 disse:

Sorry, not sure I'm following this question.  You want an Inside Forward to keep wide (isn't that just a Winger?) and then use a central midfielder to run into the space that a regular IF might otherwise use?  Is that the general idea?

If so then a Mezzala may be what you are after as a Mezz is designed to run forwards towards the outside channels rather than staying more centrally as a CM might.  A Box to Box Midfielder may also be suitable due to his in built roaming.  You could add the Roaming PI to a CM but he'd still behave slightly differently to a B2B.

In Pep's world every player uses certain channel. That helps stretching the defense. And we see so many times the CMs exploiting the half spaces while the wingers are wide and then they cut inside once in the final third. If I use two IFs sitting narrow or two roles that narrow the pitch, what I see is a team that becomes too predictable, too narrow and I see mine not having space while working that way.

I thought about using wingers or dropping them to WMs, but I have this view of the winger role being too disconnected from the team and the second option is not really option because they don't press at all like wide AMs having attributes or not.

The mezzala idea is not bad, but I think he is too incisive and doesn't playmake that much.

I don't know if I'm making sense, and sorry if I'm misspeaking English at sometimes.

 

 

[Keyzer Soze]

6 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

In Pep's world every player uses certain channel. That helps stretching the defense. And we see so many times the CMs exploiting the half spaces while the wingers are wide and then they cut inside once in the final third. If I use two IFs sitting narrow or two roles that narrow the pitch, what I see is a team that becomes too predictable, too narrow and I see mine not having space while working that way.

I thought about using wingers or dropping them to WMs, but I have this view of the winger role being too disconnected from the team and the second option is not really option because they don't press at all like wide AMs having attributes or not.

The mezzala idea is not bad, but I think he is too incisive and doesn't playmake that much.

I don't know if I'm making sense, and sorry if I'm misspeaking English at sometimes.

 

 

A Winger, with attack duty, could do that. He will stay wide, but in the final third he will be much more narrow, arriving in the box.

If the player the player you are using has the "get into the box" trait, then many times he will attack the channel between the central defender and the fullback.

In my tactic, playing with Benfica, i had Salvio playing as a attacking winger on the right side, having a MEZ(s) in the MCR position. Salvio has the trait to get into the box. He scored +20 goals in one season.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Personally I've found its useful to make them stretch the play more so you don't find them narrow too early (you still do, but it seems to decrease the likelihood a bit). It never appears quite like that, but going for similar to what Pep likes to do with his wide players - I remember there was an anecdote about him drawing a line on the field, or setting a cone or something and forbidding Sterling from coming narrower than it until he got what he was going for. 

When I used Inside Forwards they stayed wide by default. 9 out of 10 times they only cut inside when they received the ball and dribbled inside. 

[zlatanera]

20 minutes ago, Rooks said:

When I used Inside Forwards they stayed wide by default. 9 out of 10 times they only cut inside when they received the ball and dribbled inside. 

Good for you. I realise that phrase always sounds sarcastic, but it's not meant that way. Part of the difference in our experience is probably due to our own individual perceptions as much as anything. I'm just guessing at what the other guy meant too - it could be that herne's right and he does want wingers but is using IFs because his players are natural in that role or something. 

[Razor940]

1 hora atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

A Winger, with attack duty, could do that. He will stay wide, but in the final third he will be much more narrow, arriving in the box.

If the player the player you are using has the "get into the box" trait, then many times he will attack the channel between the central defender and the fullback.

In my tactic, playing with Benfica, i had Salvio playing as a attacking winger on the right side, having a MEZ(s) in the MCR position. Salvio has the trait to get into the box. He scored +20 goals in one season.

Whats your idea on the other flank?

Btw, glad to see another Portuguese around here ahah

[Keyzer Soze]

6 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

Whats your idea on the other flank?

Btw, glad to see another Portuguese around here ahah

Inside forward, on support duty, with PI to make more forward runs, and a advanced playmaker, on support, in the MCL position. 

Usually play with a CF(s) or DLF(a) in front. 

We, the Portuguese, are everywhere ahahhaha

[PequenoGenio]

1 hora atrás, Razor940 disse:

Whats your idea on the other flank?

Btw, glad to see another Portuguese around here ahah

 

1 hora atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Inside forward, on support duty, with PI to make more forward runs, and a advanced playmaker, on support, in the MCL position. 

Usually play with a CF(s) or DLF(a) in front. 

We, the Portuguese, are everywhere ahahhaha

Yes we are

[efesta7]

Can you provide the link to download the tactic?

[herne79]

41 minutes ago, efesta7 said:

Can you provide the link to download the tactic?

It's covered in this post:

 

[mrcjevans]

 

I know it's Fulham but still! Love the ideas in this thread!

[Pep468]

11 hours ago, mrcjevans said:

 

I know it's Fulham but still! Love the ideas in this thread!

Impressive amount of passes and shots - could you post the TI’s and PI’s and formation/ player roles please 

[Keyzer Soze]

Just to add some more thoughts to this thread.

The 4123 Wide DM, has been my prefer formation since i can remember. and every year i try to implement a solid one to my teams.

From year to year, i tend not to differ mych. Usually i have a CF(s) or a DLF(a) upfront, a combo of IF(a) + IF(s) or IF(s) + W(a) in the wings, a combo FB(s) + WB(s) in defence. No matter how much i change, i usually end up with almost the same choice of roles.

And every year i usually struggle with the choice for my midfield duo. With the arrival of the MEZ, the number of options increased, so it's always hard, at least for me, to choose the right set between MEZ, AP, DLP, BBM, MC, etc.

This year however, and kudos to @herne79, i began giving much more importance to the DM role and how he can influence the attacking play of my team, and also the defensive stability.

Because i usually play with a top team, i start to realize how, in many games, my DM was a non productive player. Usually playing him as a DM(d) or a HB(d), in many games he simple didn't to nothing. He didn't help in attack, in particulary against teams that seat deep, and even in terms of defensive position many times he didn't give the necessary balance to the team.

So, and just for the fun of testing some ideas, and trying to implement some sort of system, i fired up a new save, set up a new 4123 wide DM formation, and make some tests.

The tactic, has the usually roles...

CF(s)

IF(a)                                      IF(s)

AP(s)        CM(a)

DM(d)

FB(s)       CD(d)      CD(d)      FB(s)

G(d)

Pretty stantard choice of roles. I decided to use FB(s) because both players have the trait to get forward whenever possible, so no need to Wingbacks.

There are some PI's.... the CM(a) has the instructions to roam from position, take more risks and move into channels. The idea was traying to make a MEZ that plays a little less wide, don't know if makes sence, but was the idea behind the PI's.

The IF(s) on the right has the instructions to roam from position and to stay wider. 

The TI's are much similar to the ones used in the tactics in this thread: shorter passing, play out of defence, wbib, counter-press, higher d-line, much higher LOE

Now, about the DM(d), i've set some rules, depending on the opponent tactic:

a)  the opponent plays with someone in the AMC position: i use a DM(d)

b)  the opponent plays with 2 center forwards: i use a HB(d)

c) the opponet don't use anyone in the AMC postion, and this is usually the most common i see when teams play against me: i use a DM(s) 

First things i've notice: i'm finally having the player in the DM position getting a av. rating above 7.

Second thing that was obvious was how much more envolve in the game that he was. Against teams that seat deep, and with my CM(a) and AP(s) pushing forward, now i have a much better option to recycle possession. I'm training the players in that position to have the trait to switch ball to other flank.

Third, and also important, i'm scoring more and conceding less. 12 games into the season 11 wins and only 1 drawn. 31 goals scored and only 2 conceded.

I haven't try the DLP(s) because i don't like much having two playmakers so close to each other. But it's something i'll try to fit in, but for that i'll probably change the AP(s) to a MC(s).

Anyway, just some thoughts i wanted to share. Perhaps to many this is something that was already obvious but to me just make me view the DM position with completely different eyes.

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Keyzer Soze

[PequenoGenio]

2 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Just to add some more thoughts to this thread.

The 4123 Wide DM, has been my prefer formation since i can remember. and every year i try to implement a solid one to my teams.

From year to year, i tend not to differ mych. Usually i have a CF(s) or a DLF(a) upfront, a combo of IF(a) + IF(s) or IF(s) + W(a) in the wings, a combo FB(s) + WB(s) in defence. No matter how much i change, i usually end up with almost the same choice of roles.

And every year i usually struggle with the choice for my midfield duo. With the arrival of the MEZ, the number of options increased, so it's always hard, at least for me, to choose the right set between MEZ, AP, DLP, BBM, MC, etc.

This year however, and kudos to @herne79, i began giving much more importance to the DM role and how he can influence the attacking play of my team, and also the defensive stability.

Because i usually play with a top team, i start to realize how, in many games, my DM was a non productive player. Usually playing him as a DM(d) or a HB(d), in many games he simple didn't to nothing. He didn't help in attack, in particulary against teams that seat deep, and even in terms of defensive position many times he didn't give the necessary balance to the team.

So, and just for the fun of testing some ideas, and trying to implement some sort of system, i fired up a new save, set up a new 4123 wide DM formation, and make some tests.

The tactic, has the usually roles...

CF(s)

IF(a)                                      IF(s)

AP(s)        CM(a)

DM(d)

FB(s)       CD(d)      CD(d)      FB(s)

G(d)

Pretty stantard choice of roles. I decided to use FB(s) because both players have the trait to get forward whenever possible, so no need to Wingbacks.

There are some PI's.... the CM(a) has the instructions to roam from position, take more risks and move into channels. The idea was traying to make a MEZ that plays a little less wide, don't know if makes sence, but was the idea behind the PI's.

The IF(s) on the right has the instructions to roam from position and to stay wider. 

The TI's are much similar to the ones used in the tactics in this thread: shorter passing, play out of defence, wbib, counter-press, higher d-line, much higher LOE

Now, about the DM(d), i've set some rules, depending on the opponent tactic:

a)  the opponent plays with someone in the AMC position: i use a DM(d)

b)  the opponent plays with 2 center forwards: i use a HB(d)

c) the opponet don't use anyone in the AMC postion, and this is usually the most common i see when teams play against me: i use a DM(s) 

First things i've notice: i'm finally having the player in the DM position getting a av. rating above 7.

Second thing that was obvious was how much more envolve in the game that he was. Against teams that seat deep, and with my CM(a) and AP(s) pushing forward, now i have a much better option to recycle possession. I'm training the players in that position to have the trait to switch ball to other flank.

Third, and also important, i'm scoring more and conceding less. 12 games into the season 11 wins and only 1 drawn. 31 goals scored and only 2 conceded.

I haven't try the DLP(s) because i don't like much having two playmakers so close to each other. But it's something i'll try to fit in, but for that i'll probably change the AP(s) to a MC(s).

Anyway, just some thoughts i wanted to share. Perhaps to many this is something that was already obvious but to me just make me view the DM position with completely different eyes.

 

And what PI do you use for the DM, for each ocasion?

And your top goalscored who is he? The striker or one of the IF?

Edited March 29, 2019 by PequenoGenio

[mrcjevans]

9 hours ago, Pep468 said:

Impressive amount of passes and shots - could you post the TI’s and PI’s and formation/ player roles please 

Sure, currently using the below, and also another nice example against Dortmund

 

 

If I am far and away expected to win I'm starting with more of the aggressive roles, if I am clearly on top I keep with them to see how it goes, if it's evident they are getting control I usually change pogba and the RW to support duty as a start to see if that helps.

If I'm not winning by  60 ish minutes I am generally experimenting with remove work ball into the box, slightly higher tempo and also changing the CDM into DLP support but as I say I am experimenting a lot. Lots of room for improvement as well down the right-hand side especially.

 

I did have DDG as a SW but he made a dreadful mistake for a goal a game or two back so I changed it lol! I was pissed!

PI's currently work in progress but I have the front 3+Pogba roam from position and also Pogba set to have his passing range as big as possible.

 

Just noticed I don't have roaming set on the CM so I may try that.

 

Below is a good example of making changes, so southampton were all over me at the start with 56-58% possession also, made a few tweaks, changing a couple of the attack roles to support and we just took over

Edited March 29, 2019 by mrcjevans

[Keyzer Soze]

6 hours ago, PequenoGenio said:

And what PI do you use for the DM, for each ocasion?

And your top goalscored who is he? The striker or one of the IF?

When I play with DM(d) or the HB I don't use any adicional PI's. As for the DM(s) , the situation is different and I'm still figure out the best set. Usually start with the "Hold position" PI and see if with that he stay too deep or not. Depending on that I'll remove it or not. Always use the PI to shoot less often. 

Now, about the top goalscorer, funny thing that proves how I know nothing about this game. When I made the tactic, I was expecting that my top goalscorer would be or the CF or the left IF(a). But no, who is scoring for fun is my right IF(s) with 11 goals in 14 games. Both CF and left If score 6 goals. 

I think this is due to 2 things: the player that I usually play as my right If has the trait to get into the box, and also the PI's that the CM(a) have... Take more risks and roam from position opens space and make through balls to the IF. 

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Keyzer Soze

[Garrlor]

15 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

When I play with DM(d) or the HB I don't use any adicional PI's. As for the DM(s) , the situation is different and I'm still figure out the best set. Usually start with the "Hold position" PI and see if with that he stay too deep or not. Depending on that I'll remove it or not. Always use the PI to shoot less often. 

Now, about the top goalscorer, funny thing that proves how I know nothing about this game. When I made the tactic, I was expecting that my top goalscorer would be or the CF or the left IF(a). But no, who is scoring for fun is my right IF(s) with 11 goals in 14 games. Both CF and left If score 6 goals. 

I think this is due to 2 things: the player that I usually play as my right If has the trait to get into the box, and also the PI's that the CM(a) have... Take more risks and roam from position opens space and make through balls to the IF. 

  

Have a look at the kind of goals that your IF(S) on the right is scoring. I found that playing the same way due to the support role he would just scoot in to finish off a cross at the back post, either from the FB or the IF(A) on the left. Something about IF(A) just does not work as it should in this edition to be honest.

[Keyzer Soze]

On 30/03/2019 at 13:22, Garrlor said:

Have a look at the kind of goals that your IF(S) on the right is scoring. I found that playing the same way due to the support role he would just scoot in to finish off a cross at the back post, either from the FB or the IF(A) on the left. Something about IF(A) just does not work as it should in this edition to be honest.

Yeah, that's how he scores most of his goals, cross from the left and a easy tap in at the second post. 

He also scored some from through balls provided from the CM(a). 

But again, I think the key point here is the "get into box" trait that he has. 

[Raymond85]

Worked the princibles of the thread to Ajax, adapting and tweaking TIs and PIs to my player's strenghthes and weaknesses (they seem just perfect for the job i give them), and this is my first match. Despite being 1-0 up after first half, they were a parked bus, and seeing it's a two legged challenge, i had to get more out of the players. So upped mentality and tweaked some midfield and supporting roles, and TIs to get the team working better, and this was the result.

 

I know it's Paok, not the strongest opponent, but it's our first official match, and Ziyech is mad at me for asking bucketloads of money to Arsenal for him (would you blame me? what a player....)

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, Raymond85 said:

Despite being 1-0 up after first half, they were a parked bus, and seeing it's a two legged challenge, i had to get more out of the players. So upped mentality and tweaked some midfield and supporting roles, and TIs to get the team working better, and this was the result.

Great job.  This is really important and good to see - you noticed an issue, made a change and got a good result.  You probably lost a little possession to get it, but then that's the whole point.  Nice one .

[Raymond85]

9 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Great job.  This is really important and good to see - you noticed an issue, made a change and got a good result.  You probably lost a little possession to get it, but then that's the whole point.  Nice one .

Exactly. We had 63% in first half, but only 5 shots, 2 on target.

2 goals came from set pieces and 2 from pressing high up the pitch, leading to defenders mistakes. No possession goals, but we'll get there, i'm sure. It's only the first competitive game, and the tactic is far from accomplished yet.

This thread really opened my eyes on some things about player traits and weaknesses, and how those and ppms influence tactical instructions and all. I wanted to play with wingbacks, but both Kristensen and Tagliafico have "get further forward", so i set them to simple FB's, no need for overkill. Also i set up Neres as a winger to stretch play on the left hand side, freeing Ziyech, who is an outstanding trequartista, and he is absolutely thriving with the space Neres, and his pressure on defenders are making.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Raymond85

[mrcjevans]

We love @Herne! Full rotation in the league cup against Arsenal

Also the games thus far this season, early doors but looking promising! Excluded friendlies as I just went on holiday to get past them

[Brian]

14 hours ago, Raymond85 said:

Also i set up Neres as a winger to stretch play on the left hand side, freeing Ziyech, who is an outstanding trequartista, and he is absolutely thriving with the space Neres, and his pressure on defenders are making.

How consistence is Ziyech at the Trequarista role? I use him as an Inside Forward or CM-Support with PI's and he has his games where he doesn't bring anything. 

[Raymond85]

4 minuti fa, Rooks ha scritto:

How consistence is Ziyech at the Trequarista role? I use him as an Inside Forward or CM-Support with PI's and he has his games where he doesn't bring anything. 

well, for the moment he hates me because i told him to get lost when he wanted a transfer for peanuts, but he still impresses, with 5 goals and 2 assists in 7 matches. Sometimes he's overly complacent, but even when he has a bad game, he just needs one good ball to work magic. He always seems comfortable playing in that role nonetheless. I felt inside forward was limiting his movement and creativity, as that's how i first tried him in friendlies.

I'm trying to train him in final third focus, so i can get that terrible decision attribute up

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Raymond85

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi,

Need a little help, and perhaps @herne79or @Rashidi or anyone who as more experience dealing with the flat 442.

Everytime i play against the flat 442 i struggle to create any kind of chance. I dominate in terms of position, but the number of shots and chances i can produce is very low (usually under 10 shots per game when facing the 442). And this happens despite i'm facing a stronger or weaker team.

The tactic i use, is the one i've posted a couple posts above (i'll copy it again in the end of this post).

I think that there is something in this tactic that is completely nullified by the 442. So any suggestions?

CF(s)

IF(a)                                      IF(s)

AP(s)        CM(a)

DM(d)

FB(s)       CD(d)      CD(d)      FB(s)

G(d)

Pretty stantard choice of roles. I decided to use FB(s) because both players have the trait to get forward whenever possible, so no need to Wingbacks.

There are some PI's.... the CM(a) has the instructions to roam from position, take more risks and move into channels. The idea was traying to make a MEZ that plays a little less wide, don't know if makes sence, but was the idea behind the PI's.

The IF(s) on the right has the instructions to roam from position and to stay wider. 

The TI's are much similar to the ones used in the tactics in this thread: shorter passing, play out of defence, wbib, counter-press, higher d-line, much higher LOE

[Razor940]

3 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Hi,

Need a little help, and perhaps @herne79or @Rashidi or anyone who as more experience dealing with the flat 442.

Everytime i play against the flat 442 i struggle to create any kind of chance. I dominate in terms of position, but the number of shots and chances i can produce is very low (usually under 10 shots per game when facing the 442). And this happens despite i'm facing a stronger or weaker team.

The tactic i use, is the one i've posted a couple posts above (i'll copy it again in the end of this post).

I think that there is something in this tactic that is completely nullified by the 442. So any suggestions?

CF(s)

IF(a)                                      IF(s)

AP(s)        CM(a)

DM(d)

FB(s)       CD(d)      CD(d)      FB(s)

G(d)

Pretty stantard choice of roles. I decided to use FB(s) because both players have the trait to get forward whenever possible, so no need to Wingbacks.

There are some PI's.... the CM(a) has the instructions to roam from position, take more risks and move into channels. The idea was traying to make a MEZ that plays a little less wide, don't know if makes sence, but was the idea behind the PI's.

The IF(s) on the right has the instructions to roam from position and to stay wider. 

The TI's are much similar to the ones used in the tactics in this thread: shorter passing, play out of defence, wbib, counter-press, higher d-line, much higher LOE

I don't know about the CF(s) role, but usualy I want the striker as a DLF(s) to track back as much as possible to have a 3 vs 2 on the midfield. But this is pointless without knowing what happens game wise.

[Raymond85]

20 ore fa, Raymond85 ha scritto:

Worked the princibles of the thread to Ajax, adapting and tweaking TIs and PIs to my player's strenghthes and weaknesses (they seem just perfect for the job i give them), and this is my first match. Despite being 1-0 up after first half, they were a parked bus, and seeing it's a two legged challenge, i had to get more out of the players. So upped mentality and tweaked some midfield and supporting roles, and TIs to get the team working better, and this was the result.

 

I know it's Paok, not the strongest opponent, but it's our first official match, and Ziyech is mad at me for asking bucketloads of money to Arsenal for him (would you blame me? what a player....)

Just a little follow up,i hope it can help people to read games and know what to do to get the extra edge.

 

We played Der Klassikiert (idk if that's correct) against Feyenoord, away in a very complicated match. We were struggling with possession and shots on goal, but so were they. Come half time i was quite sure that if i didn't touch anything i would have conceded a fluke or a random goal, i wasn't happy at all with numbers and performance. 

So what did i do? More possession was not what i needed, and being already balanced, both going cautious AND positive could have led to disaster.

I thought i just needed a little adjustment. So my AP-s became a CM-a, to try and get some penetration. Well i did have a couple of good chances, and we seemed a little more positive with our passing around. But come the 75th minute, we lost the ball a couple of times in very dangerous positions, since Feyenoord never stopped their pressing game.

It wasn't the time to dwell on the ball, i had to try and get experience and the ball forward, because you don't win if you don't score, and you don't score if you don't create space, chances and shots.

In goes Huntelaar as a poacher, and out goes my CF-S and top goalscorer Dolberg. And one simple tactical change: Much shorter passing (that's what i had for this match) went to mixed. Why only this? because everything else was working. We were just suffering high pressure and not managing to get forward and score. There was no problem with how we passed, and how we were playing, when we had the ball in interesting spaces we were actually in a good day.

And the outcome: a no-nonsense ball straight forward towards net and attackers, from a set piece, but still. You see the difference.

 

The goal: https://i.gyazo.com/1e98bf0d8650835eaa65f73cff951d9d.mp4

 

What did i do after the goal? absolutely nothing, because in the last 10 minutes i was sure they would have kept going the same way to find the equalizer. If we shut up shop, we would have been under terrible pressure. Instead we had another great opportunity on the counter. But in the end, that was what decided this derby.

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Raymond85

[mrcjevans]

Hey guys, so I was popping out today, so I thought I would sim an entire season, from season 2 as man united currently:

 

 

Does not look great at all the first time you take a look. However, when I looked more closely I noticed I did not lose a home game the entire season so it is fairly promising! Usually playing actively I wouldn't start positive in every away game so lets see if I can improve it further

 

[zlatanera]

On 31/03/2019 at 18:42, Raymond85 said:

Exactly. We had 63% in first half, but only 5 shots, 2 on target.

2 goals came from set pieces and 2 from pressing high up the pitch, leading to defenders mistakes. No possession goals, but we'll get there, i'm sure. It's only the first competitive game, and the tactic is far from accomplished yet.

This thread really opened my eyes on some things about player traits and weaknesses, and how those and ppms influence tactical instructions and all. I wanted to play with wingbacks, but both Kristensen and Tagliafico have "get further forward", so i set them to simple FB's, no need for overkill. Also i set up Neres as a winger to stretch play on the left hand side, freeing Ziyech, who is an outstanding trequartista, and he is absolutely thriving with the space Neres, and his pressure on defenders are making.

With Ajax I made a Positive and Cautious 433 inspired by this thread, also using Ziyech as a Trequartista, but Neres and Tadic both as IF on the left. No one individual had impressive production but we won the Champions League. Never occurred to me to use Neres as a Winger - even though I'd use him as a Winger on the right to stop him cutting inside too early - but I might try it now, perhaps with Lyon if I move Memphis to ST - use Bertrand Traore to create space for Fekir (although Traore has "cuts inside from both wings" so it may not work well).

[Raymond85]

35 minuti fa, zlatanera ha scritto:

With Ajax I made a Positive and Cautious 433 inspired by this thread, also using Ziyech as a Trequartista, but Neres and Tadic both as IF on the left. No one individual had impressive production but we won the Champions League. Never occurred to me to use Neres as a Winger - even though I'd use him as a Winger on the right to stop him cutting inside too early - but I might try it now, perhaps with Lyon if I move Memphis to ST - use Bertrand Traore to create space for Fekir (although Traore has "cuts inside from both wings" so it may not work well).

Actually i'm always switching his role now that i'm progressing with the season, depending on how tight the opposition defense is playing. If i need to stretch them, he goes as a winger. If i have lots of space, i tend to play him inside forward, as he is devastating dribbling past defenders. I get a feel of things in the first minutes of the game.

I'm also using Tadic as a cover for De Jong as advanced playmaker. It will be a problem when Frankie leaves, i'm already starting Gravenberch in some cup games, but i'm training Van der Beek as an AP, thinking of slipping Ekkelenkamp in his place as a supporting midfielder

Edited April 1, 2019 by Raymond85

[zlatanera]

31 minutes ago, Raymond85 said:

Actually i'm always switching his role now that i'm progressing with the season, depending on how tight the opposition defense is playing. If i need to stretch them, he goes as a winger. If i have lots of space, i tend to play him inside forward, as he is devastating dribbling past defenders. I get a feel of things in the first minutes of the game.

I'm also using Tadic as a cover for De Jong as advanced playmaker. It will be a problem when Frankie leaves, i'm already starting Gravenberch in some cup games, but i'm training Van der Beek as an AP, thinking of slipping Ekkelenkamp in his place as a supporting midfielder

Fair. I'm not that much of a tweaker unless things go disastrously or I'm struggling against a massed defence. 

I played pre-update so didn't have that problem with Frankie but also initially came at it looking to imitate Ten Hag's before switching to a 433 so from then onwards Tadic was always in my mind as a wide man. Ekkelenkamp is one I wished I'd used, quite a unique skillset, particularly coming from an academy known for producing playmakers. I never played FM when Lampard was at his peak but he strikes me as someone who could be developed to imitate Lampard due to that great finishing. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by zlatanera

[Raymond85]

1 minuto fa, zlatanera ha scritto:

Fair. I'm not that much of a tweaker unless things go disastrously or I'm struggling against a massed defence. I played on original DB so didn't have that problem with Frankie but also initially came at it looking to imitate Ten Hag so from then onwards Tadic was always in my mind as a wide man. Ekkelenkamp is one I wished I'd used, quite a unique skillset, particularly coming from an academy known for producing playmakers. I never played FM when Lampard was at his peak but he strikes me as someone who could be developed to imitate Lampard due to that great finishing. 

I have an Ajax save every year. And i tend to go heavy on academy development, since there are so many promising youingsters. I just brought in Vagnoman, Pierie (in Dutch fashion) and cervi on loan to fill in backup missing positions. And i will only buy when i don't have good enough academy players ready to step in. I've evaluated most of them and put them in training to mould them into the player i would like.

 

TBF this is the first time i got into tactics tweaking, after i read this thread with an open mind. Sometimes it doesn't work, but the two times i posted here, it gave me the edge to make a difference. 

[Raymond85]

WHAT A GAME! We were outstanding and outplayed them all over the pitch! I thought we were in for a real battering, but it has been the best game i have seen up to now

[zlatanera]

52 minutes ago, Raymond85 said:

I have an Ajax save every year. And i tend to go heavy on academy development, since there are so many promising youingsters. I just brought in Vagnoman, Pierie (in Dutch fashion) and cervi on loan to fill in backup missing positions. And i will only buy when i don't have good enough academy players ready to step in. I've evaluated most of them and put them in training to mould them into the player i would like.

TBF this is the first time i got into tactics tweaking, after i read this thread with an open mind. Sometimes it doesn't work, but the two times i posted here, it gave me the edge to make a difference. 

I do too, them and quite often Lyon. But I never stick it out long enough to see much real development (although turn Geubbels into one of the best CF in the world by age 19 last year, tutoring was so broken). Pierie was part of my Ajax side.

I drift in and out of it, I tend to lose my head and just click "Very Attacking" rather than being more methodical about it - last year I used O-zil's Guardiola tactic a lot, and the key move if you weren't breaking a team down was just to switch the RWB to Attack and you'd usually get something. Half the time I'd remember that, half the time I'd lose it, go nuts and concede on the counter. There's a post a couple pages back where herne says "sometimes, just do nothing" and that's probably the most important thing this thread had to offer me. 

[Raymond85]

3 minuti fa, zlatanera ha scritto:

I do too, them and quite often Lyon. But I never stick it out long enough to see much real development (although turn Geubbels into one of the best CF in the world by age 19 last year, tutoring was so broken). Pierie was part of my Ajax side.

I drift in and out of it, I tend to lose my head and just click "Very Attacking" rather than being more methodical about it - last year I used O-zil's Guardiola tactic a lot, and the key move if you weren't breaking a team down was just to switch the RWB to Attack and you'd usually get something. Half the time I'd remember that, half the time I'd lose it, go nuts and concede on the counter. There's a post a couple pages back where herne says "sometimes, just do nothing" and that's probably the most important thing this thread had to offer me. 

I've had that also work in a couple of games. Patience. And remember, not always you are in a good day. I got 3 terrible draws, 2 of which at home, against lesser teams. Then patience and months go by, here come the results like the game against Juventus.

You can't expect your team to perform perfectly every time, you'd win every single game

 

[mrcjevans]

Actually getting clear cut chances now, Monaco were favorites here and I was away, so I think my best result so far whilst still maintaining a good amount of possession and passes

 

[ShuichiAkai]

Hey guys! I love this topic! I have a question for you, what do you thing about using a double playmaker, for instance a Deep Lying Playmaker as DM and a Roaming Playmaker as CM?

[scratchmonkey]

7 hours ago, ShuichiAkai said:

Hey guys! I love this topic! I have a question for you, what do you thing about using a double playmaker, for instance a Deep Lying Playmaker as DM and a Roaming Playmaker as CM?

I think a double playmaker is fine, so long as you're controlling the spacing correctly, which obviously you can do with a number of levers. With your example, I wouldn't play a DLP(S) as a DM behind a RP(S) because they'd both be drawn to the ball constantly, creating a clump of three players and making it very easy for the other team to defend effectively. Similarly, DLP(D) and a RP(S) in isolation would probably work; however, if the DLP had Gets Forward at All Times and the RP had Drops Deep to Collect the Ball, then you'd have the clumping problem again.

In my version of this, I used to play with a DLP(D) as a DM and a AP(A) as a CM and it worked well, especially since the PPMs separated the players even further. I also have a couple of variations, one with a DLP(S) as a CM and a AP(A) in the AML/R position, and another with a DLP(D) as CM and a T(A) in the AMC spot. As above, the key to having two playmakers is to make sure that they aren't using the same space.

[jakem016]

After incorporating some suggestions from this thread we just absolutely demolished Man City in the UCL final.  Despite going behind early we were dominating the game without creating any clear chances.  I was about to switch to a much more aggressive 4-2-3-1 plan b, but instead made a couple small tweaks and made an inspired substitution and got the win we deserved.  We're still not creating as many chances as I would like but we are absolutely smothering teams and rarely need more than a single goal.  Anyway thanks for the excellent thread.

[mrgoal100]

En ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2019 a las 0:42, herne79 dijo:

The million dollar question.

The simplest answer I can give is by reading the game and the stats.  But that's experience and hard to translate into a forum post.  The type of things I look out for (perhaps I should flow chart):

-  Is my midfield supporting my forward players effectively?  ("Effectively" meaning a passing option, positioned to play a forward pass, or even just be a physical presence to give the opposition something to think about).  Yes - leave well alone.  No - consider MC duty.  Attack duty - consider Tempo.  Support duty - try attack instead.  Did changing duty to Attack work?  No - consider Tempo.  (This is not the definitive list as other factors could be at work such as Mentality, the wrong role or even something as simple as the player having an off day).

-  Is our passing game working?  Yes - leave well alone.  No - why are my players not finding space?  Is my length too long, is my length too short?  (No sniggering).  Are they marked heavily?  Am I giving too much time to allow the opposition to regroup?

I could probably go on for pages, but in essence it all boils down to this: are my players doing what they are supposed to be doing in terms of their roles and the instructions I've given them?  If they are, we'll probably have a good match.  Of course if my system is rubbish we'll probably have a bad match.

But I can only tell if they are doing what they're supposed to by understanding what I've told them to do in the first place.  So is my Fullback (support) covering his wing defensively, supporting the midfield and providing the odd overlap?  Yes - tick move on.  Is my Advanced Playmaker (support) helping to dominate the midfield and supporting the attack?  No - sort it out.  And so on.

It perhaps sounds laborious but once you get your eye in it becomes quick and second nature.  Of course getting your eye can be the tricky part and comes with experience, which I know a lot of people struggle with.  I usually watch the first 10 mins or so of each half then switch to key highlights and keep an eye on the stats (pass completion rate and opposition shots can be good to watch out for).  Just don't ball watch and don't try to watch everything.  Break it down, focus on one thing at a time (at least to begin with).

First off, excellent thread.

IMO, this is the most important post. Everything else you explained, principles you follow, how you have a plan, it's quite easy, you just need to cover some basics.

Point is, you can créate a perfectly balanced tactic but you Will need to adjust it according to how the AI reacts. Now, if you don't have the ability to read what the ME is showing, everything fails. Well, not everything, you can still have good results, overachieve and win trophies, but there is a feeling that there something I'm missing, that I could do better...

You can build a solid tactic that Works under certain circumstances. If circumstances change, stops working. If you are totally unable to understand what has changed, why and how to fight against it, then you are lost.

While this kind of threads can be excellent (congratulations @herne79), I miss in this fórums more threads explaining how to read the ME. Unfortunately, this doesn't come with experience only. Yes I know about Rashidi's videos but it's the same. I don't understand your decisions, your thought process, I don't know what you see in the ME that makes you change specific things, and why not others.

In all honesty, I dare to suggest you experts should put more emphasis on this because it's where, I think, most of users struggle, including me. I'd like to strenghten that aspect of the game, but I have no idea how and I don't find posts here explaining it.

 

.

[Gee_Simpson]

1 hour ago, mrgoal100 said:

First off, excellent thread.

IMO, this is the most important post. Everything else you explained, principles you follow, how you have a plan, it's quite easy, you just need to cover some basics.

Point is, you can créate a perfectly balanced tactic but you Will need to adjust it according to how the AI reacts. Now, if you don't have the ability to read what the ME is showing, everything fails. Well, not everything, you can still have good results, overachieve and win trophies, but there is a feeling that there something I'm missing, that I could do better...

You can build a solid tactic that Works under certain circumstances. If circumstances change, stops working. If you are totally unable to understand what has changed, why and how to fight against it, then you are lost.

While this kind of threads can be excellent (congratulations @herne79), I miss in this fórums more threads explaining how to read the ME. Unfortunately, this doesn't come with experience only. Yes I know about Rashidi's videos but it's the same. I don't understand your decisions, your thought process, I don't know what you see in the ME that makes you change specific things, and why not others.

In all honesty, I dare to suggest you experts should put more emphasis on this because it's where, I think, most of users struggle, including me. I'd like to strenghten that aspect of the game, but I have no idea how and I don't find posts here explaining it.

 

.

Good post mate. I'm like you, kind of lost, not sure how to read the ME properly. 

[CARRERA]

28 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

not sure how to read the ME properly. 

There is so many hardcoded stuff on Roles or ME in general. Collaboration of mentality dutys and instructions is poorly explained which leads to unexpected results in what you see in your acutal game. So unless you are able to spent hours on watching and tweaking everything from game to game you are lost - especially if your criteria is a certain style of play and not just winning. 

A small example which occures in every version of FM. You want your players to cross or shoot less -> logical response is to use either PI's to shoot / cross less often or WBIB. -> nothing happens, still plenty of shots / crosses. so you have to tinker around with whatever until you find a solution. Thats actually far away from intuitive play.

As there are a lot of contrary posts on how to achieve certain things from experienced users just shows how badly the tactics creation / ME is designed at its current state.

[mrgoal100]

hace 16 minutos, CARRERA dijo:

There is so many hardcoded stuff on Roles or ME in general. Collaboration of mentality dutys and instructions is poorly explained which leads to unexpected results in what you see in your acutal game. So unless you are able to spent hours on watching and tweaking everything from game to game you are lost - especially if your criteria is a certain style of play and not just winning. 

A small example which occures in every version of FM. You want your players to cross or shoot less -> logical response is to use either PI's to shoot / cross less often or WBIB. -> nothing happens, still plenty of shots / crosses. so you have to tinker around with whatever until you find a solution. Thats actually far away from intuitive play.

As there are a lot of contrary posts on how to achieve certain things from experienced users just shows how badly the tactics creation / ME is designed at its current state.

While I agree sometimes the game is missleading, If the tactical, ME and visual representation are fine or not is another subject. Sure there is room for improvement but I'd like to read the ME and play the game we have now. If they do, there is no reason why we can't.

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by mrgoal100

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

You want your players to cross or shoot less -> logical response is to use either PI's to shoot / cross less often or WBIB. -> nothing happens, still plenty of shots / crosses. so you have to tinker around with whatever until you find a solution

If your players keep shooting (from distance) and crossing in spite of these instructions, it always means only one thing - they are lacking other/better options in the final third. Or more precisely - you failed to set up the tactic in a way that would provide those better options (in most cases due to a wrong setup of roles and/or duties).