Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

[BrickCommo23]

Only discovered this thread the other day and the timing was amazing as I was right in the midst of trying to create my own attacking tiki-taka type setup with Arsenal in second season.

This has been so unbelievably useful so a massive thank you to @herne79

I just thought I would share my approach and first two results:

First game with the new system was away to West Brom. Given they are newly promoted I stuck with 'Positive'. Our possession was brilliant. They did have 3 CCCs but 2 of those came on the same corner and their goal was a massive long ball over the top (which was a little worrying in terms of the Defensive Line but I'll put it down to the new system). I'm mostly delighted with the possession and passes completed:

The following game was home to Leicester. Excellent possession again but have a look at their shots...domination

I'm going to preset a 'Cautious' version of this set up too because I am a little lazy but just wanted to say a massive thank you!

Edited February 2, 2019 by BrickCommo23

[Razor940]

6 horas atrás, Mitja disse:

Look at the MC trio how close each to other they play and their movement is all the same. Its a known ME issue, also DCs seem scared to pass slightly more risky balls. Is the right MC plsymaker?

 

5 horas atrás, xnovoxx disse:

1) what’s the mentality of the CBs. Personally, I always try to achieve balanced to ensure they’re less incentivesed to clear it

2) do they have ppms? I aim to train all cbs with short passing. Composure? Vision? Passing? Technique? All those play a role

3) what’s the passing range of the cbs. Note that as I mentioned, playing out of defence with shorter passing increases the back lines passing range (as per the visual)

you wont ever completely remove those kind of passes, but you can limit them. It could also just be the CB. Maybe he’s overly right footed on the left.

just some thoughts.

The 2 MCs are advanced playmaker and a DLP. Like Herne said, I could change the two because my AP has comes deep trait. I noticed more spaced floor, but not much like I want.

I have balanced and my 2 CBs are overly right footed. Never thought about that tho. I trainded short pass to Ross McCrorie and he has more than 13 in all of those.

Sorry for being in Portuguese, but this is the type of passe in the PI of my CBs. Do you suggest check out play out of defence?

[herne79]

11 hours ago, Garrlor said:

I think that is where my team are falling down right now. They keep the ball well, but struggle to make chances other than in the traditional cross cross cross sense. I think it can be rectified, but my whole team will need some serious training time. I wish to god they hadn't removed the retain possesion shout, I feel like it was one of the few things that could make your players "understand" what you actually wanted from them.

I also want to kick Sanchez in his littlle Chilean nuts. No matter where I play him, his dribble PPM just overrides everything. I even tried him as a Raumdeuter as its a role that you can tell not to dribble... no effect. I think its my biggest annoyance with FM so far, the hard coding of actions into the roles with very little scope for player customisation in some areas. @herne79 do you think that perhaps PPM's and hardcoding are playing too much of a role in this ME? Sanchez should be used to a pass and move style from Udinese, Barca and Arsenal but seems to perform like Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi had a baby who was crap at dribbling. Hell a baby who couldnt even dribble into his bib. Occasionaly he suprises me with an outstanding goal or assist, but its like a baby that suprises itself by farting. Otherwise I spend my time watching him run into defenders constantly with passing options open.

I want to pick up on this bolded part first, as this can be a great idea: combining a player's Traits & attributes with a role to produce variety and options.  So a Raumdeuter who dribbles more; a hard working Trequartista; a Winger who'll cut inside (as examples).

Do I think Traits and hardcoding are having too large an effect?  Sometimes but not in general.  Personally I find trying to work with something rather than against it can help.  So take Alexis as the example of issues you are having.  If he isn't performing as you want as an IF, don't use him as one.  Perhaps try him on the other flank as a Winger where his dribbling skills will be needed and he may be forced to stay wider and deliver crosses.  Or put him up front as a striker so he's getting on the end of things rather than trying to create things.  Or a Shadow Striker where he can use his mental skills to get beyond the final man and into the box. 

There are always options.

[zlatanera]

@Razor940 are you just using normal CD? Or are you using BPD?

Asking because I mistake I used to make was to think BPD meant they'd bring it out of the defence, or keep it on the ground, much like Pep's defenders did whenever I watched, when it actually means they're more likely to play a risky pass i.e. a long ball, just with better technique than a DCB or whatever its called now. 

[Razor940]

1 minuto atrás, zlatanera disse:

@Razor940 are you just using normal CD? Or are you using BPD?

Asking because I mistake I used to make was to think BPD meant they'd bring it out of the defence, or keep it on the ground, much like Pep's defenders did whenever I watched, when it actually means they're more likely to play a risky pass i.e. a long ball, just with better technique than a DCB or whatever its called now. 

I know all of that so I rarely use BPD. Both are normal CDs and whatever I do I still see long passes when they are technically gifted.

[Luizinho]

Enjoying this one 

I'm hoping to share my experiences later, if I get time, but I was really interested to learn how/if you change this system when playing in bad conditions (pitch, weather)?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Razor940 said:

I know all of that so I rarely use BPD. Both are normal CDs and whatever I do I still see long passes when they are technically gifted.

A player that often plays longer passes even if he is told to pass shorter usually does so due to a lack of safe passing options (meaning no or very few of his closest teammates are in a good position to receive the pass safely, either because they are well-covered by opposition or aren't close enough to the passer). In such situations, a defender will tend to pass longer even if he is additionally asked to take fewer risks (PI). Of course, we would need to see a screenshot of your whole tactic in order to be able to give you as specific answer as possible. Btw, if your defender has the trait "Tries long range passes", then it can easily be the main cause of his behavior.

[04texag]

Such a great thread. I really appreciate the time and effort, and the way @herne79 broke down the posts with information, giving it slowly so that we had to think about each piece.

One thing I have not seen discussed much is team width. I've found this can make a huge difference in style of play, and makes a big difference when change in combination with passing length. 

Also, when you are playing against a bus, with a high LOE and defensive line, you basically are cutting yourself off of space if you are in their third the whole game. You can give yourself more space by either setting a wider width or adjusting the line back some.

[Gegenklaus]

12 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Such a great thread. I really appreciate the time and effort, and the way @herne79 broke down the posts with information, giving it slowly so that we had to think about each piece.

One thing I have not seen discussed much is team width. I've found this can make a huge difference in style of play, and makes a big difference when change in combination with passing length. 

Also, when you are playing against a bus, with a high LOE and defensive line, you basically are cutting yourself off of space if you are in their third the whole game. You can give yourself more space by either setting a wider width or adjusting the line back some.

Good point. Could you expand a bit on this? What have you tried?

[Razor940]

13 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

A player that often plays longer passes even if he is told to pass shorter usually does so due to a lack of safe passing options (meaning no or very few of his closest teammates are in a good position to receive the pass safely, either because they are well-covered by opposition or aren't close enough to the passer). In such situations, a defender will tend to pass longer even if he is additionally asked to take fewer risks (PI). Of course, we would need to see a screenshot of your whole tactic in order to be able to give you as specific answer as possible. Btw, if your defender has the trait "Tries long range passes", then it can easily be the main cause of his behavior.

I know, but I'm having problems correcting that. 

The tactic: 

SK(d)

WB(a) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(s)

DM(d)

DLP(s) - AP(a)

IF(a) - IF(s)

DLF(s)

This is in Portuguese, but the positions of the TIs are obviously the same in every language.

 

 

[Riziger]

4 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Only discovered this thread the other day and the timing was amazing as I was right in the midst of trying to create my own attacking tiki-taka type setup with Arsenal in second season.

This has been so unbelievably useful so a massive thank you to @herne79

I just thought I would share my approach and first two results:

Almost exactly how I set up my newly promoted Sunderland side who are massively over-achieving. My 2 CMs are set to roam. So sometimes if I find I'm being overwhelmed in the midfield (through the action zones stat), I'll throw one FB onto an IWB and see if another body in midfield helps. I don't like the IWB(s) as much though cause he has instructions to roam hard-coded. I still struggle with away games especially to teams who sit back and counter but I recognise that it may just be the quality of my players at the moment trying to play this system.

Interestingly, against the big teams, I've done very very well and weirdly seem to dominate the games with my cautious tactic if they don't sit back:

Combining this thread and the Pep Guardiola one has brought a new dimension to my game. Not played FM in a few years but got back into it recently. Thanks @herne79. I've been going through your post history like a proper stalker and learned so much, along with watching @Rashidi

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

Enjoying this one 

I'm hoping to share my experiences later, if I get time, but I was really interested to learn how/if you change this system when playing in bad conditions (pitch, weather)?

I've never paid any attention to that sort of thing.

[04texag]

22 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Good point. Could you expand a bit on this? What have you tried?

So, if you have shorter passing, but leave it at fairly wide width, in transition play, the players are trying to move the ball up the field, they typically won't dwell on the ball based on a lot of the other settings discussed in this thread. So, they get the ball and look for a short pass, but due to the spacing with fairly wide, no one is technically close enough in a lateral or forward position, so they tend to launch a longer pass and it's a higher risk to lose possession. This will often impact transition play with the central midfielders.

If you see stuff like that happening, you can try to reduce the width to narrow. Now as a CM is looking for a pass, the IF or T should be closer to him and qualify for a shorter pass, and possession will be smoother.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I know, but I'm having problems correcting that. 

The tactic: 

SK(d)

WB(a) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(s)

DM(d)

DLP(s) - AP(a)

IF(a) - IF(s)

DLF(s)

This is in Portuguese, but the positions of the TIs are obviously the same in every language.

 

 

According to google translator, "Cautelosa" means "cautious" (your mentality). This could explain part of the reason your CB is "preferring" longer passes. If team mentality is cautious, then that of your CBs - as defend-duty players - is most likely defensive (if not very defensive; anyway, you can check it out in PIs). The more cautious/defensive a player's mentality is, the less willing to do anything risky he will be. So if your midfielders are heavily pressed and/or covered well by the opposition, then - from the standpoint of your CB  - a longer pass is de facto the less risky option than a shorter one. This can especially be the case if your midfielders don't have (sufficiently) good movement (i.e. off the ball).

Another possible reason might be your high d-line, which tends to reduce the playing space in the area where your defense and more defensive part of midfield are operating.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Experienced Defender

[Gary_Parker]

Great thread. A lot of good food for thought too. I've been working with a similar tiki-taka setup with Brentford, which managed to get me the championship title in the first season. Now in the premier league, we're doing fantastically, yet to lose. I'm not too happy with some of the forward play however. I think a good read through this as well as a bit of deeper investigation into my team will improve it. Good stuff

 

[Razor940]

9 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

According to google translator, "Cautelosa" means "cautious" (your mentality). This could explain part of the reason your CB is "preferring" longer passes. If team mentality is cautious, then that of your CBs - as defend-duty players - is most likely defensive (if not very defensive; anyway, you can check it out in PIs). The more cautious/defensive a player's mentality is, the less willing to do anything risky he will be. So if your midfielders are heavily pressed and/or covered well by the opposition, then - from the standpoint of your CB  - a longer pass is de facto the less risky option than a shorter one. This can especially be the case if your midfielders don't have (sufficiently) good movement (i.e. off the ball).

Another possible reason might be your high d-line, which tends to reduce the playing space in the area where your defense and more defensive part of midfield are operating.

First thing I thought while reading what you said was put control with normal d-line height or tick off take fewer risks from my CBs. I'm balanced to try the second one first once I have time.

[SixPointer]

@herne79 amazing thread and the way you’ve delivered it has opened my eyes to loads make people think and learn about the game rather than just copying stuff. I wonder if you have any plans to do one Like this say with a more defence or counter style achieved to see how your thought process would work trying to achieve that.

[Garrlor]

10 hours ago, herne79 said:

I want to pick up on this bolded part first, as this can be a great idea: combining a player's Traits & attributes with a role to produce variety and options.  So a Raumdeuter who dribbles more; a hard working Trequartista; a Winger who'll cut inside (as examples).

Do I think Traits and hardcoding are having too large an effect?  Sometimes but not in general.  Personally I find trying to work with something rather than against it can help.  So take Alexis as the example of issues you are having.  If he isn't performing as you want as an IF, don't use him as one.  Perhaps try him on the other flank as a Winger where his dribbling skills will be needed and he may be forced to stay wider and deliver crosses.  Or put him up front as a striker so he's getting on the end of things rather than trying to create things.  Or a Shadow Striker where he can use his mental skills to get beyond the final man and into the box. 

There are always options. 

I am more than happy to play with traits to get something unusual, as I said earlier I use both Chong and Mata as Wingers on the right as they cut in from different areas and with different strengths. Sanchez just infuriates me at times with his constant need to dribble, as he only ever dribbles into the defender losing the ball 9 times out of 10. I think it might just be the way dribbling has been toned down in this edition, as he just seems so unlikely to actually beat his man. Same for Martial, and I have watched that guy torment full backs for fun at times!

[Razor940]

How to bulldoze defences.

[Gary_Parker]

After some investigation and reading through what everyone has been saying here, i've actually gone with a flat midfield 3, retaining the same roles as I had with the DM and looking to give my DLP a few traits that better help him come deeper to get the ball and start off moves more. We're still as potent going forward right now, but defensively we've become a little bit more open. Its a trade off I guess. 

 

[nikolaj760]

As an example, how would you setup against a team like Manchester City away from home? 

 

[Razor940]

After some experiments with my only problem being the defense punting the ball away (even if it was with the intent of breaking the defense) I made some conclusions:

Individual mentality is very important. Last night I was studying them in my team and I was searching around the internet about. I found this little piece in the forum and was great help.

Fist thing I did was setting my roles in a way that my team shape became more than flexible so, in combination with positive mentality, my centre backs have balanced mentality. Now I can play from the back without any problem. At the same time I was preocupied only with the defence, I actually evolved my way of thinking the game. Now I can think about overall mentality, players mentality, individual TIs, team TIs and ppms as one homogeneous structure. Like for example I have my DR with ppm to go higher up the pitch, now I can have him in support in a way of making my defenders more confident to make a pass (my shape became fluid and my centreback now have balanced mentality), him more avaible to give passing lines and at the same time he continuously gives depth in the flank. 

If you did read what I said, it's nothing more than what herne already wrote, a reinforcement. I don't know if this will help someone or it's even needed, for my understanding I could be very dumb and the only one that didnt understand this at first. Bottom line I only wanted to give my testimony about my quest and say the best way it's to explore and study. 

Other thing I ended up understanding was turning the system into a very fluid one helped me counter high presses, because my team started to give even more pass options.

[faith7777]

What am I doing wrong? I don't understand why anytime I come up against a team that parks the bus I tend to lose the possession battle. Moreover I am having difficulties creating chances for my front 3, most of the goals I have scored so far are from set pieces and long shots. In the tactic I have set fewer risky passes to the back 5 and roaming for the DLF and IF.

I thought about switching the positions of the AP and BBM as well as the WB and FB to create an overload on the left and free up the raumdeuter, but I feel that this would reduce the supply for the raumdeuter.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Experienced Defender]

46 minutes ago, faith7777 said:

What am I doing wrong? I don't understand why anytime I come up against a team that parks the bus I tend to lose the possession battle. Moreover I am having difficulties creating chances for my front 3, most of the goals I have scored so far are from set pieces and long shots. In the tactic I have set fewer risky passes to the back 5 and roaming for the DLF and IF.

I thought about switching the positions of the AP and BBM as well as the WB and FB to create an overload on the left and free up the raumdeuter, but I feel that this would reduce the supply for the raumdeuter.

Any advice would be appreciated

I think you should create your own separate thread where people could discuss your tactical issues in more detail, because your post is a topic for itself, rather than just a comment on this herne's thread.

[faith7777]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I think you should create your own separate thread where people could discuss your tactical issues in more detail, because your post is a topic for itself, rather than just a comment on this herne's thread.

Fair enough, I will do that.

[BrickCommo23]

I just thought I would update on my progress with this approach. 

I was finding that we had decent possession but we weren't actually doing much with it - just passing for passing sake. So, I made some tweaks and just sharing here in case it is useful - but in the overall spirit of @herne79 approach.

We still have circa 65% possession but actually get plenty of shots on goal too.

[Scutinio]

Do you have a link to dowloand this tactic or player instruction?

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Scutinio said:

Do you have a link to dowloand this tactic or player instruction?

No, please read my previous post:

On ‎31‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 18:42, herne79 said:

Putting it all Together

I've strung this out long enough .

But if you think you're going to get a screenshot of a complete tactic I'm afraid you might be disappointed.  I've blanked out some of the tactical settings from the screenshot below, the reason for this is twofold:

1)  I have a set framework (the visible parts below) but within that framework some parts are fluid.  So I may start some matches with different settings and/or I may change something during a match.  They are not big changes by any means - a change of role or duty here, and TI change there.  I will adjust mentality regularly however.  Rest assured however I'll go into detail on all of this below.

2)  I don't want people looking at a tactic and attempt to copy it.  That's not what the thread is about and if I did post something like that I'm certain the system wouldn't work effectively because they'd miss all the changes I do.

 

[cristhianlinhatti]

My 100th try:

Goals: https://streamable.com/9aep3

 

[loisvale]

This was an enlightening read and contains some solid principles I will try to incorporate into my own tactics. It is especially interesting the positive effect small changes to roles and duties can have. I am always interested in examples of this.

What I find difficult at times is to fully understand the effects the TIs can have under the hood on the match engine. For example I am not sure that I have always appreciated that tempo has an effect on passing and wbib and pood also can have an effect on each other. Thus I’m not sure even having read your thread whether I still fully understand the effects. Is there a source that explains the effects of TIs in greater detail than contained in the game to further understand this?

[buachuta]

Will there be any more updates @herne79?

[herne79]

2 hours ago, buachuta said:

Will there be any more updates @herne79?

It's pretty much all there now.  I'll probably do something about facing the "parked bus" as some seem to struggle against it, but there isn't much else to write about now.  Maybe a different formation too as this thread isn't really about the 4123DM (despite the thread title ).

[Keyzer Soze]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

It's pretty much all there now.  I'll probably do something about facing the "parked bus" as some seem to struggle against it, but there isn't much else to write about now.  Maybe a different formation too as this thread isn't really about the 4123DM (despite the thread title ).

It's funny, but if we check the forum about threads with people with difficulties against teams that park the bus, the large majority are playing with a 4123 wide DM formation. 

My point being, that against teams that park the bus, it's important to have that extra man in the box, or by having 2 forwards, or with a AMC that arrives sooner. 

And, to achieve that with the 4123 wide. DM formation, is sometimes hard, mainly because the poor choice of TI's that rush the play too much. I think that people really struggle to achieve that

 

[99]

Hi,

This is a very interesting thread, since this is exactly the type of football I love and that I try to emulate in each version of FM.

Sadly, I can't really seem to make it work. Maybe because I always start my careers in lower league clubs (3rd divisions and so on...). With Man United I had tremendous success with a tactic very similar to this one, but in other teams, usually I only get true success when I change to a 4-2-3-1 Gegenpress style. With that (and some tweaks I make that are almost trademark of me, like shorter passing and very wide setups) I can win leagues even easily. I win, I have success, but I don't really like the football played on my screen. I try a possession, tiki-taka with intent, I like the football being played, yet I don't score goals and end up drawing or loosing. Last time I tried this, didn't score a single goal for 3 games straight. Changed to gegenpress and Booommm, 3 or 4 goals scored...

I'll persist on trying to make it work. I guess my main problems are 1) the parking bus opponents and 2) lack of goals from my forwards, no matter who they are. I even had problems with the best forwards in the world using this possession based tactics...

[Kolarov's missing tooth]

Just to follow up on 99's point, getting consistent performances from strikers is the one issue I'm having with a possession based tactic. I've tried multiple roles and duties with no permanent solution. If anyone has ideas here it'd be a massive help.

[herne79]

6 minutes ago, Kolarov's missing tooth said:

Just to follow up on 99's point, getting consistent performances from strikers is the one issue I'm having with a possession based tactic. I've tried multiple roles and duties with no permanent solution. If anyone has ideas here it'd be a massive help.

Getting consistent performances from strikers (or anyone else for that matter) isn't just about the striker and his role.  It's about everything in combination (the theme of this thread).  Is he creating enough space for himself?  Are other players creating space for him?  Who and how is feeding him the ball to shoot?  How are they getting the space to receive the ball in order to make the pass/cross to the striker?

Unless you've done something really odd with your system, a consistently underperforming striker will most likely have little to do with the striker.  If you want ideas, read the thread.  If you still get stuck you could create a new thread, post your detailed tactical setup (screenshots ideally), describe the problems and someone may be able to give you more specific advice.

[scwiffy]

On 02/02/2019 at 11:02, herne79 said:

I want to pick up on this bolded part first, as this can be a great idea: combining a player's Traits & attributes with a role to produce variety and options.  So a Raumdeuter who dribbles more; a hard working Trequartista; a Winger who'll cut inside (as examples).

Do I think Traits and hardcoding are having too large an effect?  Sometimes but not in general.  Personally I find trying to work with something rather than against it can help.  So take Alexis as the example of issues you are having.  If he isn't performing as you want as an IF, don't use him as one.  Perhaps try him on the other flank as a Winger where his dribbling skills will be needed and he may be forced to stay wider and deliver crosses.  Or put him up front as a striker so he's getting on the end of things rather than trying to create things.  Or a Shadow Striker where he can use his mental skills to get beyond the final man and into the box. 

There are always options.

1

I'm not sure if its just more on FM19, but I'm noticing more and more how much PPMs override tactical instructions. In rare cases, as you have mentioned, you can use this to your benefit. But its only the really experienced players who can use this to good effect, most of the time I just find it gets in the way of my tactical idea and also makes good players lay to waste unless untrained (which takes time). I personally think PPMs should have less of an impact than they currently do. Its nice to play with things and it does lead to interesting roles and more variations but I think considering this is (mainly) a tactics game, PPMs shouldn't override TIs/PIs as much as they do.

[Kolarov's missing tooth]

7 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Getting consistent performances from strikers (or anyone else for that matter) isn't just about the striker and his role.  It's about everything in combination (the theme of this thread).  Is he creating enough space for himself?  Are other players creating space for him?  Who and how is feeding him the ball to shoot?  How are they getting the space to receive the ball in order to make the pass/cross to the striker

Unless you've done something really odd with your system, a consistently underperforming striker will most likely have little to do with the striker.  If you want ideas, read the thread.  If you still get stuck you could create a new thread, post your detailed tactical setup (screenshots ideally), describe the problems and someone may be able to give you more specific advice.

I've read the thread more thoroughly than I care to admit. I appreciate it's about how the whole thing works in tandem, but poor contribution from the striker is really the only thing that isn't working broadly as hoped. I could play around with other roles etc but then one starts unpicking one's whole strategy. I do regularly adjust other roles as a matter of course anyway, often to try and get more support to the striker (or at least get more bodies up the pitch), and it has minimal effect. Just for clarity I haven't been trying new roles/duties at random, but deliberately to try and create a better goal threat, to find space, etc, in response to issues I'm seeing. But the issue just changes, with the end result being middling ratings for the forward.

I could set up a new thread but this might be an issue others experience when setting up a possession tactic (clearly at least one other person does) so thought it might be a sensible point of discussion here, especially as it already has people's attention.

 

[herne79]

4 hours ago, scwiffy said:

I'm not sure if its just more on FM19, but I'm noticing more and more how much PPMs override tactical instructions. In rare cases, as you have mentioned, you can use this to your benefit. But its only the really experienced players who can use this to good effect, most of the time I just find it gets in the way of my tactical idea and also makes good players lay to waste unless untrained (which takes time). I personally think PPMs should have less of an impact than they currently do. Its nice to play with things and it does lead to interesting roles and more variations but I think considering this is (mainly) a tactics game, PPMs shouldn't override TIs/PIs as much as they do.

Traits don't "override" tactical instructions.  Other tactical instructions set the base level, which changes higher or lower as you change those instructions, Traits are then applied starting from that base level.

I know I may be discussing semantics here, it's just when terms such as "override" are used others may get hold of the wrong end of the stick .

[bdixon]

Well done in getting a possession tactic working for you. You're a far better player then I am. 

I've tried to implement some of your idea but across in all your post within my new save with Benfica however because of the reputation of the club most teams we face are playing with a defensive mentality and have absolutely zero interest in doing nothing apart from pass it about. Most of the time I will see a central defender holding onto the ball for what seems to be eternity with none of my players closing down, even though I have pressing increased and a higher LOE. And please do not get me started on crossing.

For me the ME's current state I find it one of the most frustrating version I have ever played and I will call it now the next release, and probably the final version for this year will be the one most have longing for and for that is just unacceptable.

Hey ho, rant over back to banging my head against a brick wall.

[cristhianlinhatti]

I use almost same PIs as the herne.

Edited February 11, 2019 by cristhianlinhatti

[Razor940]

Why the winger on the side of the CM? I'm curious. I tend to put him and the more attacking 8 in the same side so the winger opens space in the middle, then I can put my fullback covering like Abidal or going to the middle using the space behind that 8.

 

Btw, can someone teach me how to do overloads? I tried to learn from Rashidi videos, but I'm not understanding that well how to do. I understand the tought, but I'm having problems choosing roles. I'm asking, because I'm having problems with very defensive sides now that I put Peterborough in the top5 of the Premier.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Razor940

[herne79]

37 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

Btw, can someone teach me how to do overloads? I tried to learn from Rashidi videos, but I'm not understanding that well how to do. I understand the tought, but I'm having problems choosing roles. I'm asking, because I'm having problems with very defensive sides now that I put Peterborough in the top5 of the Premier.

You're best off starting a new thread for that as it's got nothing to do with this topic .

[cristhianlinhatti]

3 horas atrás, Razor940 disse:

Why the winger on the side of the CM? I'm curious. I tend to put him and the more attacking 8 in the same side so the winger opens space in the middle, then I can put my fullback covering like Abidal or going to the middle using the space behind that 8.

 

Btw, can someone teach me how to do overloads? I tried to learn from Rashidi videos, but I'm not understanding that well how to do. I understand the tought, but I'm having problems choosing roles. I'm asking, because I'm having problems with very defensive sides now that I put Peterborough in the top5 of the Premier.

Nice! I will test.

 

[Razor940]

21 horas atrás, herne79 disse:

You're best off starting a new thread for that as it's got nothing to do with this topic .

I understand. I only wrote that because you talked about making a post about playing against defensive sides.

[djpdavey]

Absolutely love this. Can this work in lower leagues or will hoofball unravel this approach?

[herne79]

The Parked Bus

There have been a few questions about how to break down a parked bus, both in this thread and in other recent threads, so figured I'd pass along some thoughts.

I'm not playing as West Ham here as we don't face many buses.  So I've chosen a big team in a league where I think I'm likely to face a few - Benfica.  I don't know much about SLB's playing squad, or indeed the Portuguese league, so it's a bit of a fun experiment for me.  I'm also jumping straight in at the deep end and am starting the season from the first competitive match: the CL qualifier against Standard Liege, but I am of course using the core tactic developed with West Ham and will be playing as I usually would.

Having looked at the squad, this is my first starting line up:

I'm starting with the Balanced mentality here as I simply don't know enough about my squad.  I can see they're good - in my opinion good enough to feature in at least the knock out rounds of the CL and to win the league - but I need to watch to see what they're capable of and messing around too much with Mentality at this stage could cloud issues.

It's also of note my AP (Pizzi) has the Trait "Gets Into Opposition Area", so I give him a support duty to begin with to see how the duty and Trait will combine.

Watching the Match

"Which highlights to use" is a fairly common question and the answer is whatever you are most comfortable with.  However I personally follow @Cleon's advice here - especially when I'm learning about my squad and how they'll play with a tactical system - and that's to watch the first 10 or so minutes in full detail before switching to a highlights mode. 

While I'm still in this learning stage, watching those first 10 or so minutes is really important.  If I was just watching highlights they're, well, just that - highlights.  It means something has happened on the pitch which the game thinks I might like to watch.  But I don't care what the game thinks, I want to see what's actually happening - how are we using the ball; are we pressing effectively; what do we do when we lose the ball; is my fullback offering the right support; is my striker doing what I want; and so on.  I won't see that if all I watch is a highlight.  Once I'm happy with what I see then I'll switch to highlights, or once I'm comfortable with how my team have been playing matches I'll start matches in a highlights mode, but not before.

With that in mind, this is a recording of the first 12 mins of my very first match.  I'll do a little write up on my thoughts below and how the match ultimately played out (the clip is about 7 mins long).

Pros

- We keep the ball well, patiently passing it around in all areas of the pitch.

- Pressing is good.  The first 5 mins we are basically camped in Standard's half.

- Pizzi and Gabriel look good in midfield.

- Seferovic (the striker) is putting himself about nicely.

Cons

- Rafa keeps giving the ball away.

- We're erring too much on the side of possession vs penetration.

- Standard are well drilled in defence.

Breaking down this particular bus

It's 0-0 at half time.  We're dominating in all areas apart from goals scored.  So what to do?

What I'm not going to do is panic and start experimentally changing things.  Both those first 12 mins and the rest of the half on key highlights told me a lot - we've actually had 9 shots in the first half, 5 of which forced saves from the keeper.  So we're making good chances.  Possession is above 70% and Standard are basically pinned in their own half.  So here's what I decide to do: nothing at all.

Doing nothing is a perfectly valid tactical decision, especially when you are getting to know your players and their capabilities.  Further, why would I change anything?  We're creating decent chances and playing Standard off the park.  If we weren't creating good chances I might consider a change (although while I'm still in learning mode this early in the season I probably wouldn't), but we are.

Anyway, we score two goals in the 54th and 55th minutes, finishing the game with a 2-0 win.  Here's the final stats:

45 crosses (accounting for the 9 corners) is probably more than I'd like to see but it's just one match and different matches will be different.  Something to keep an eye on though.

If people are interested, I'll do another write up for a different match where I do make changes to break down the bus.

Final Thoughts

I've seen comments where people mention how the parked buses they face seem to dominate possession - or at least patiently pass the ball around at the back while their own forwards seemingly don't do much (or any) pressing. 

Parked buses are generally where I enjoy the most possession as parked buses are only really interested in clearing their lines.  So my first question would be: is it actually a parked bus?  There is a difference between a team playing defensively (or countering) and parking a bus.

Secondly, if the opposition are passing it around, why is your pressing not working?  Do you have the right combination of players, roles, duties, mentality, TIs and PIs?  Watch the first 5 mins of that clip above - Standard are pinned deep inside their own half.  All they can do is clear the ball on occasion.  But pressing doesn't always happen (watch the next 5 mins) and it's unrealistic to expect that.  So long as overall you are dominating, that's the important part - there will always be periods during the ebb and flow of a match where the other team will play a bit, so long as those periods aren't too long of course.  (Another potential danger of watching just highlights ).  If overall you are not dominating there is probably something inherently wrong with how you've set things up.

[zlatanera]

31 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It's 0-0 at half time.  We're dominating in all areas apart from goals scored.  So what to do?

nothing at all.

 

This. 

When playing in Eredivisie (similar to Portugal in that there are usually three teams vying for the title and everyone else doesn't matter), it often gets so tight that I start to panic whenever I reach half time at 0-0, going to Very Attacking and More Direct etc. and often that then turns what could have been a 1-0 win with a bit of luck, into some relegation fodder's first win of the season as we leave ourselves so exposed to a counter. Whereas if I'd just stayed the course, perhaps made a full back more aggressive, we'd usually get the win.

Of course sometimes you make it to the last 10 minutes really needing the win, and then it does make sense to bring on the Andy Carroll equivalent and start lumping it.  

[cristhianlinhatti]

442/352 TUCHEL...

[herne79]

@cristhianlinhatti  Good job .