Is FM too easy?

[dannysheard]

Is it too easy?

[true_valiant]

Ive read the comments on people finding it too easy. Im baffled to  be honest and have no idea where im going wrong.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Impossible to answer. What's 'easy' for one person in a simulation style game is harder for someone else. The thousands of combinations of settings, teams, styles, tactics, leagues loaded, database size, detail level, etc etc mean 'easy' is impossible to quantify. 

Users can make the experience easier for themselves of course, going top teams, creating a maxed out manager, finding exploits in the match engine, just as they can make it hard for themselves.

Also, a lot of people 'game' the system by stockpiling young payers, selling them for insane profits and becoming unbeatable within a few seasons. That's not the game being 'easy' that's people artificially making it so, just as it is with downloaded tactics, in-game editors and any other number of ways people give themselves an advantage. 

So, it's only as easy or hard as YOU make it. 

[Preveza]

There’s a thread exactly like this one. Fm difficulty. Same same.  This should be closed

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, Preveza said:

There’s a thread exactly like this one. Fm difficulty. Same same.  This should be closed

One's a discussion, one's a poll. One will give percentages. I'll give you a drachma if you can guess which one.

[craiigman]

I voted based on the thread title.

[true_valiant]

6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Impossible to answer. What's 'easy' for one person in a simulation style game is harder for someone else. The thousands of combinations of settings, teams, styles, tactics, leagues loaded, database size, detail level, etc etc mean 'easy' is impossible to quantify. 

Users can make the experience easier for themselves of course, going top teams, creating a maxed out manager, finding exploits in the match engine, just as they can make it hard for themselves.

Also, a lot of people 'game' the system by stockpiling young payers, selling them for insane profits and becoming unbeatable within a few seasons. That's not the game being 'easy' that's people artificially making it so, just as it is with downloaded tactics, in-game editors and any other number of ways people give themselves an advantage. 

So, it's only as easy or hard as YOU make it. 

Still doesnt work for me 

 

[dannysheard]

Just now, craiigman said:

I voted based on the thread title.

[forameuss]

10 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

One's a discussion, one's a poll. One will give percentages. I'll give you a drachma if you can guess which one.

Given polls never tell you anything useful, and one already has a decent load of discussion, I'll give you a drachma if you can guess which one is worth keeping

[Kingstontom88]

Not seen anything to suggest it's too easy yet - playing in League One and doing well but don't feel that I'm cruising through.

[westy8chimp]

7 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Given polls never tell you anything useful, and one already has a decent load of discussion, I'll give you a drachma if you can guess which one is worth keeping

Polls are good for a quick feel. How are you and Dave logged in at the same time - two laptops? 

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Polls are good for a quick feel.

But are they though?  Given it's invariably put on an emotive issue, it's basically an idea on what a tiny minority (because that's what this forum represents) feels on said issue.  Couple that with the fact that they're rarely fair and balanced in terms of outcomes (how often do they devolve into "not enough options" chat?), then they're rarely useful.  I'd say the now 4-page thread on the subject will contain far more than a handful of people voting on 4 options.  But maybe that's just me.

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

How are you and Dave logged in at the same time - two laptops? 

Why would I upset you on two accounts when it's clearly easy enough to do on one?

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

 How are you and Dave logged in at the same time - two laptops? 

I'm not hipster enough to create a Partick Thistle supporting alias. 

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

it's basically an idea on what a tiny minority (because that's what this forum represents) feels on said issue.

So is discussion based... how is 4 of us bickering for 10 pages any more informative or representative of the collective than a poll? 

As far as sample size goes... getting a couple hundred replies to a poll in here is going to be fairly good idea of the wider community. We are all relevant to the game... not like he's asked 10 people at a doctors surgery what political views they have, without knowing if any of them are eligible to vote let alone have a passing interest in politics. 

[Neil Brock]

Miles announced just over a week ago that the overall win percentage for human managers in FM18 was 62.24%.

The FM19 human win percentage is currently lower than this. Make of that what you will. 

[westy8chimp]

33 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Impossible to answer

I've worked out how to do it.. I just read the question. then read the answers and selected the one that most applied to me. 

I found it too easy (using previous editions as a barometer) but still enjoyed it as overall the game is a lot better and I like the new editions.

I'd be delighted if SI were going to look into AI tactical choices, even if not for the release because it's going to need a lot of information, testing and thought out solution (if issue is acknowledged), and make it more of a challenge... but am I looking forward to getting stuck into another save and playing FM19... Yes. 

It'd be really interesting, but probably not able to be disclosed, as to how the AI managers choose a tactic. Is it organic in as far as the manager profile is set with some preferences, and then a calculator selects a preset most closely linked to manager philosophy... does the researcher state which preset is most suitable and manager profile modifies it slightly in terms of mentality etc. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, Neil Brock said:

Miles announced just over a week ago that the overall win percentage for human managers in FM18 was 62.24%.

The FM19 human win percentage is currently lower than this. Make of that what you will. 

There ya go @westy8chimp, this has been CONFIRMED by the developers, by your logic, that should end all arguments, you know, just like the injury 'issue' 

[iAlwaysWin]

i voted about right, am quite experienced at this game, went chelsea and won the league and league cup, out of fa cup in semis and terriable run in the europa league, out at the last 32, all in could have done better could have done worse, if it was to easy would have won every game 4-0 and won every trophy avaiable.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, iAlwaysWin said:

i voted about right, am quite experienced at this game, went chelsea and won the league and league cup, out of fa cup in semis and terriable run in the europa league, out at the last 32, all in could have done better could have done worse, if it was to easy would have won every game 4-0 and won every trophy avaiable.

Not living up to your username then? 

[FrazT]

Guys- just cut out the petty bickering please

[Per Annum]

I've spent most of this season riding high in my first season promoted into VNL thinking the game is too easy. Six games without a win through March and now hoping I'll stay in playoffs, having been planning my League 2 squad through December.

Good old FM!

[dannysheard]

5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There ya go @westy8chimp, this has been CONFIRMED by the developers, by your logic, that should end all arguments, you know, just like the injury 'issue' 

Er, FM18 was far too easy as well, and I imagine the FM19 win % (which will already be stupidly high compared to real-life) will rise once everyone gets used to the game and has more than ten fit players at a time.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, dannysheard said:

Er, FM18 was far too easy as well

I'm beginning to think FM might not be the game for you. 

[Neil Brock]

1 minute ago, dannysheard said:

Er, FM18 was far too easy as well, and I imagine the FM19 win % (which will already be stupidly high compared to real-life) will rise once everyone gets used to the game and has more than ten fit players at a time.

That is a theory, but I would also suggest that currently the people playing the Pre-Release version are more experienced FM'ers (given they pre-ordered) so are probably by and large better at the game overall. 

But you can twist statistics in many different ways! As a few people have already said both in this and the other thread, people find the game's difficulty completely different. 

[westy8chimp]

4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There ya go @westy8chimp, this has been CONFIRMED by the developers, by your logic, that should end all arguments, you know, just like the injury 'issue' 

IF Miles were a developer, IF it was an acknowledgement of an issue and not a mere statement, and IF those stats told us more about which clubs people are using in the BETA and how many new users are playing for the first time. 

The fact he has announced it at all suggests it was a pre-emptive defence mechanism  

The only true barometer, probably the 10th time ive said this in an hour, so apologies... is to compare like for like. 

[forameuss]

What sold more - tinfoil or FM?

[Per Annum]

5 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

Er, FM18 was far too easy as well, and I imagine the FM19 win % (which will already be stupidly high compared to real-life) will rise once everyone gets used to the game and has more than ten fit players at a time.

I'm confused as to what the real life win percentage is, isn't everyone in real life a human manager?

[dannysheard]

1 minute ago, Per Annum said:

I'm confused as to what the real life win percentage is, isn't everyone in real life a human manager?

Edgy.

[rcirani7]

Yeah, I went "about right". So far it's felt about how I've expected, challenging but rewarding. But then I'm not managing a big club. 

[westy8chimp]

Just now, Per Annum said:

I'm confused as to what the real life win percentage is, isn't everyone in real life a human manager?

you've spent too long in the dream world you've become stuck in limbo

[kosecki99]

hace 19 minutos, Neil Brock dijo:

Miles announced just over a week ago that the overall win percentage for human managers in FM18 was 62.24%.

The FM19 human win percentage is currently lower than this. Make of that what you will. 

Why give the human player an adventage?. I don´t understand. It should be 50%. The matches should be won with our tactics, that´s cheating!

[true_valiant]

13 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

That is a theory, but I would also suggest that currently the people playing the Pre-Release version are more experienced FM'ers (given they pre-ordered) so are probably by and large better at the game overall. 

But you can twist statistics in many different ways! As a few people have already said both in this and the other thread, people find the game's difficulty completely different. 

Spot on. I actually find the people asking for difficulty settings to be applied and stating the fact the game is "too easy" for them, insulting. Its a game, some will do well and take to it easily and some will struggle and take time to find a balane. Im the latter. 

[dannysheard]

10 minutes ago, true_valiant said:

Spot on. I actually find the people asking for difficulty settings to be applied and stating the fact the game is "too easy" for them, insulting. Its a game, some will do well and take to it easily and some will struggle and take time to find a balane. Im the latter. 

What element of it do you find insulting? Do you find the difficulty levels on all games insulting?

[true_valiant]

3 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

What element of it do you find insulting? Do you find the difficulty levels on all games insulting?

Completely different types of games though. You just cant implement the same kind of difficulty settings in FM like you do on FIFA. 

[Ampalaea4]

People chose to play Barcelona, Real, Man City, etc then they search numerous site to find the best tactic which usually exploit the match engine! (It is coincidence that best tactics for FM18 all had 3 strikers... ) and then complain that the game is too easy..

[Neil Brock]

1 minute ago, Ampalaea4 said:

People chose to play Barcelona, Real, Man City, etc and then complain that the game is too easy..

I'd imagine Julen Lopetegui would have something to say about that...

[kosecki99]

hace 3 minutos, Ampalaea4 dijo:

People chose to play Barcelona, Real, Man City, etc and then complain that the game is too easy..

I choose to play Reading(second división) and I win top team with ease, Reading 30 shot to goal vs Top team 5 or 6 shots to goal!!!

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, true_valiant said:

Completely different types of games though. You just cant implement the same kind of difficulty settings in FM like you do on FIFA. 

This.  Artificially adding difficulty would either be hopelessly rigid, or just not work at all.  It's just not the sort of framework you can do that to.

[Ampalaea4]

6 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

I'd imagine Julen Lopetegui would have something to say about that...

Thats an Aberration!

[kosecki99]

Please Neil, ME update…..

[Tony Wright 747]

In my opinion FM16 was the hardest (and thus the most realistic) in the series, it seems to have become easier after that.

[Sheriff7]

Always the same and the same question. It really starts being annoying, if you find it too easy just don't buy and playing it. Most or I should say every guy who says Fm is easy cheat in their saves (quit/load, using  editor, in transfers or contacts)+ you can make it difficult for yourself by adding  your own theoretical '' rules''. These '' polls'' are ridiculous for me.. 

[Kingstontom88]

I'd imagine league/cup bonuses that are shared between the squad play a part as well? Low = some players less motivated.etc

[sporadicsmiles]

This question is loaded by default. I do not find the game too hard, nor too easy. I am successful, but I have to work to get that success. I cannot just skip games on only commentary and know I will win. Besides, difficulty is already in the game. It is much harder to win the league with Huddersfield than with Man City. As it should be. I am good at the game because I have more than 10 years playing various iterations. You should be good at something after that long playing it.

In addition to this, if you find an exploit in the ME and use it ad infinitum to win every match you play, then you will think the game is too easy. This can be avoided by not using exploitative tactics. Same goes for using scouting programs to hoover up all the top regens. And any other trick you can use to game the game.

I'm not even sure how you can add difficulty to a game like FM. Add a penalty to the AI intelligence to make it easier? Add a buff to the AI players? Both of these completely defeat the point of the game.

Also, if we get a few more votes for "a bit hard" we will have something closely resembling a normal distribution. Come on guys, make the statistics perfect by fudging them!

[westy8chimp]

Looking at Guardiola - his profile has 'tends to work ball into box' … along with 'play out of defence'. Now starting at City with high rep, other AI teams (should) will be facing up to him cautiously. I think he plays 4123, with playmakers, IF and DLF already.. by adding 'work into box' when playing against set defence it can be hard to break down. 

I don't want any sort of difficulty setting.. I just don't want to win at City 5-0 playing  a simple 442 counter. I want to build a team, improve my tactic over the course of a save and eventually become dominant. Whether I start with Utd or Scunthorpe doesn't matter just a time delay on reaching my goal. 

All we need is use the BETA for testing... compare like for like setups to FM18... does it feel too easy to win? 

Devs to go and look... if they agree... perhaps it's as easy as removing one of the 'tends to' from managers like 'work ball into box'...maybe it's applying some dynamic logic as to when that instruction should be employed.. maybe it's much more difficult than that. 

To pigeon hole everyone saying its too easy as "picking best team and using exploit" just isn't true or helpful. 

[SD]

3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Devs to go and look... if they agree... perhaps it's as easy as removing one of the 'tends to' from managers like 'work ball into box'...maybe it's applying some dynamic logic as to when that instruction should be employed.. maybe it's much more difficult than that.

This opens a whole new can of worms. Would the game be enjoyable for you if Guardiola was playing a 20% possession catenaccio because the game dynamically determined it's the optimal tactic against your setup?

Even now there is a degree of tactical dynamism in between those hardwired tendencies, the answer is not to do away with tendencies but improve what's filling the blanks - If the same logic behind assistant's feedback is used for AI manager adjustments, then that's your first candidate for improvement right there.

[westy8chimp]

14 minutes ago, SD said:

If the same logic behind assistant's feedback is used for AI manager adjustments, then that's your first candidate for improvement right there.

Well, yes … that would be seriously bad! I wasn't musing a problem/solution just giving an example.

That said, if you went into the tactic forum with all those tend to with one of the biggest clubs … i'm sure some of the wiser players would question the necessity to work the ball into the box. And it may just be why City/Guardiola fail in a disproportionate number of peoples saves. It may be why, other than Liverpool who got 95 pts ! I had no challenge to the title. If you take the best team with the best players and render them useless (anecdotal) with one bad team instruction... that could be what has made my particular save seem too easy. 

Sort of agree with @sporadicsmiles i'm an experienced FM'er and whilst I haven't put much effort or thought into this BETA save... I have built up a knowledge base so my 5 minute knock up of a 442 is still going to be good, and I would expect to overachieve. I am not saying I shouldn't win the league, nor have great win streaks... just going by experience, comparisons etc it felt a lot easier this time round to crack it straight off the bat. 

[dannysheard]

1 hour ago, Ampalaea4 said:

People chose to play Barcelona, Real, Man City, etc then they search numerous site to find the best tactic which usually exploit the match engine! (It is coincidence that best tactics for FM18 all had 3 strikers... ) and then complain that the game is too easy..

I have never played three-striker tactic in my life. Or as Barca, Real or City. And I haven't downloaded a tactic for as long as I can remember.

[RandomGuy.]

I said about right, I took an 8th best team to 8th place and has a similar slump to what they actually had last season. 

Too early to say really though. Real teams have incredible seasons out the blue (Did Reading not finish top 8 straight after promotion once?) and have random terrible seasons (Partick Thistle finished 6th then got relegated the season after), so basing things on one season is a bit pointless.

[Becanes]

To me it's like this.  I don't recall hearing the game is too easy in the last several versions from this many people.  So it must say something that if this many people are now saying the game is too easy, maybe there is something to that.  I for one am having an easier time with my Everton side then I have in the past.