Football Manager 14 Feedback Thread - 14.1.4

[wwfan]

- Tactics

I understand that a lot of people favored the idea of shouts completely replacing the slider system when it was announced as a new feature, and a few hardcore tacticians (including myself) were disappointing, but happy to try it and see how it turned out if it were to be incorporated correctly. Now the following two points are what brought people at loggerheads:

- People who accepted that shouts are essentially how managers would speak to their players in real life. Cross more often etc. After all it's a simulation, why not make it as realistic as possible.

- People who accepted that Football Manager is a game , and that the slider system gave managers a lot lot more control in every specific action the player and team would make during the game.

My opinion? The shouts replacing the sliders have just dumbed down the way to play FM. I can totally see why people would prefer shouts to sliders, and vice-versa which bring me onto a point which really really annoys me. If you already have a feature within the game, and you're developing a new feature to replace it. Why not give people the option to choose between which system they wish to use either at start-up or in the preferences?

It's worth dealing with this in depth, as the "dumbing down" argument is one I can't accept.

If it's been "dumbed down", why are so many people struggling? The reason is that the active component of tactics has shifted away from micro setting sliders to intricately control play to making in-match decisions. People have become accustomed to developing tactics that the AI can't compete with through micro-control, then charging through matches at a rate of knots. While there is undoubtedly some creativity in slider manipulation, from what I've seen of "super-tactics" over the years, for the vast majority success occurred from more luck than judgment.

Every year, the "super-tactic" designers would fiddle with the sliders until they found some magical, usually crazily random, combination that produced passages of play that the AI couldn't defend. The "corner cheats" were the most obvious, but other passages were always evident. Every year, these "super-tactics" had completely different combinations. Now, if fiddling with sliders until you luck out is "intelligent" playing, then your point stands. If it is just a matter of fiddling until something clever happens (chimps on typewriters) then it falls.

What the tactics module does now is force people to think about how space is opened and closed, who has to create the opportunities, how they need to be created, and how they should be converted. It also forces the user to deal with when to see a match out, push for extra goals, etc, etc, offering a plethora of different options for doing so. To achieve in FM14, you have to have a structurally sound formation with players moving between the lines, a logical way of attacking and a logical way of defending. You need to learn to change things up when things aren't working as intended, deal with your team having an off day (or half), and better employ other modules to extend streaks and prevent slumps. None of the above ever mattered with a "super-tactic".

The new system is also forcing users to think like a manager rather than a gamer, in that a manager can't micro-control the actions of his players. He has to deal with complacent and nervous players having shockers. He can't rely on an unbeatable sequence of play to cover for them. This removal of micro-control is not "dumbing down" but deepening the whole simulation. There's a reason that a certain section of users has taken to FM14 like a duck to water while others are struggling. Having focused on football-logical rather than "super" tactics, they have already been utilising the wider elements of the simulation in previous versions, so aren't on such a steep learning curve.

As for the lack of an option, the ME is being built around the TC concepts, which will make the AI somewhat fiercer, as they are far stronger than the concepts that preceded them. The roles can also be isolated, meaning they can be coded to act in very specific and very different ways, which a slider based system does not allow (e.g. a TQ might drop deep in a very different manner than an F9, which couldn't happen previously). If sliders were still active controls, then this couldn't happen, which would hold long-term development back.

[wwfan]

These are my opinions:

In football, the competition is the 'meat'. Without the competition and matches, there will be no need for media interaction, player-coach interaction, and all the other 'fringe activity'. Hence, it is most important to have a realistic, robust match engine that is as bug-free as possible.

Having played a few FMs (05, 08, 09, 11, 12, 13) for varying amount of time, I have to say that FM11 is the best, and I am still playing it despite the presence of new iterations. Why? Because of its match engine. It felt robust, realistic and balanced. Players move fluidly without appearing to skid all over the place, shots felt weighty, player interactions were good. There's no extreme number of shots made each game like earlier iterations of FM14. Players do made mistakes, but not at the rate which makes you tear all your hair up. If you set up your team to play the game at the right pace, they will score, even one-on-ones. When playing away matches, your team could win if you set things up right, gave the right level of motivation.

I think what we football fans want is to have a match engine which, based on our careful planning and sensible input, could enable to do well in matches and competitions, even against the bigger teams, without feeling cheated or short-changed by glitches or glaring imperfections in the way the game is being programmed.

I've browsed FM11 match engine feedback before as well - sure, there were complaints, but not at the rate which FM13 and FM14 received. In fact, the overall feedback has been rather positive.

My suggestion to SI is - why not try making the next FM (FM15) based on FM11's match engine?

How did 11 compare with 12 in your opinion? What made 11 superior?

[samdiatmh]

How did 11 compare with 12 in your opinion? What made 11 superior?

i had a nice long career save on both, got to say i preferred the gameplay of 12 (it just felt better) but the regens and transfers were a lot better on 11 (though i did go 3 years further, and some players were coming through)

[CityAndColour]

I had my favourite ever save on FM11, but I had a bash at it while waiting for FM14 and it seemed ancient, particularly the match engine and 3D.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I know the tactics people like to talk about the fm11 and 12 ME like it was nothing but a bag of exploits, but there are objective reasons why some may prefer it to what we have now. If you didn't specifically set out to exploit it then it was more balanced statistics wise than any version of the 'new' engine. It's also much more fluid game-play wise. The main innovation of 13-14 is the collision detection, but while that makes for a more realistic and less exploitable ME it also causes a ton of frustration because it can make players look very indecisive and, frankly, unintelligent in their play with the ball. This of course does place more emphasis on good tactics vs poor ones because while good tactics play out a much more realistic version of football, the bad ones make teams and individual players specifically behave in a way that is far from what you expect from a group of people with a mind of their own and a history of having actually played football. I don't think a proper balance has been found in this regard and hopefully we'll see some improvements in next installments.

Now if someone says they prefer fm11 to fm12 because of the ME though then obviously they can't be objective because it's the same thing.

[Soccer]

How did 11 compare with 12 in your opinion? What made 11 superior?

FM12 was good, but there was a game-breaker in that away matches felt far more difficult than home matches. Home matches felt too easy, my team could be all over the opponent while during away matches, the reverse was true. In the end, my team's home and away results were vastly different - lots of wins at home, hardly winning any games away from home.

Tactically, I usually play slightly more defensive in away matches. This has been the same in FM11 and FM12. In FM11, the home-away results comparison was more balanced. Hence, I prefer FM11.

[Äktsjon Männ]

It's not an assumption. He's posted the tactic. It's an observation based on my knowing what I'm talking about.

The tactic he posted was far from ridiculously open though. It had three in midfield with two sitting, four wide players on conservative roles and instructions to discourage any expressive freedom. Now while you can certainly argue that it wasn't a good set up, in a logical world it should end up with lots of frustrating matches with little chances created that are decided by a single goal. Kind of like the actual Man Utd under David Moyes.

That's the issue. Bad tactics do not provide good enough feedback. It's all well and good telling the guy that his tactics are at fault (and they are) but unless you know the ME logic well there's no way you can deduct where your shortcomings are by just using simple footballing sense. His tactical shortcomings do not produce the kind of play you'd expect (too rigid, compressed and lacking of imagination) but rather the opposite (too open and wildly inconsistent.) The end result is the same (he's not doing as well as he thinks he should be) but can't you see where the frustration stems from?

[luka_zg]

AI through balls against 4-2-3-1 formation are really making this tactic useless against teams with two strikers. I've tried everything possible but there is just no way to stop it. You can limit it to certain extent but there will be, at least 2 CCC from this situations for the AI. You can hammer mediocre team but they will score from a through ball at one point during the match. It seems like every goal I concede is the same..through ball between my 2 CD's. Or my CD and FB.

I switched to 4-5-1 with anchor man and it is much better, I am still not sure wheter these through balls are a bug or it is tactic issue. But I've read all threads of 4-2-3-1 and tried everything possible to stop this and I just can not do it.

Also I took over Inter in the middle of 2nd season, they were sitting in 9th place,20 points off 1st place and their board want me to win the league!! WTF?"! And like they are dissapointed I'm in 5th place now. And they finished last season on 13th place. What the #$%& are you thinking Mr Moratti?!

[shirajzl]

That's the issue. Bad tactics do not provide good enough feedback. It's all well and good telling the guy that his tactics are at fault (and they are) but unless you know the ME logic well there's no way you can deduct where your shortcomings are by just using simple footballing sense. His tactical shortcomings do not produce the kind of play you'd expect (too rigid, compressed and lacking of imagination) but rather the opposite (too open and wildly inconsistent.) The end result is the same (he's not doing as well as he thinks he should be) but can't you see where the frustration stems from?

This perfectly sums up the core of frustration around the forums.

It's also one of the reasons why people refuse the help, because;

E.g. 1) "I've created a conservative, defensive formation with no creative freedom and yet my team are all-out attacking. It has nothing to do with my tactics, the game is at fault because it doesn't make any sense."

E.g. 2) "I'm dominating this game, shots, CCCs, HCs created continuously so my tactic must be really good for this match. However, I missed all those chances, the opponent scored from their only highlight and now the forums are telling me my tactic was wrong?! But I totally outplayed them! If IRL one team creates so many chances, it means they're dominating the match, how come it doesn't mean the same in FM? The game is at fault, not me."

Do you see the problem here, wwfan?

[Beestonite]

Anyone who is discussing the removal of the sliders with wwfan has to remember that he was instrumental in the implementation of the new tactical system. Therefore he is going to defend it regardless.

wwfan, just as a side issue, you have been very abrupt in some of your responses as of late. If the people on here wind you up to such a point where you can't grace them with a courteous reply then why do you continue to perform the Moderator role? Surely your blood pressure would appreciate a break? It certainly comes across that way when you post thing such as 'I know what I'm talking about'. I think if I behaved like that in a meeting at work I wouldn't be in a job for much longer. Despite the fact you may think some people simply don't understand or are being ridiculous, you can't take the approach you are doing, in my opinion. It's not nice to read.

Also, on one of your points I have to say I am quite disenchanted if this is the way the game is going. You state that the tactical side of the game is now based on making 'intricate' changes during the match rather than making 'micro changes' to the sliders. If I have a match on key highlights, how am I to really control the tactical side of the game? Surely I won't see enough? This means I would have to watch the game in either extended highlights or full match etc which I simply don't have the time to do. I work, I have a 2 year old daughter and a wife, I don't have the time but I still want to play the game in full mode, not FMC. What is my way around this problem?

Another point you make about the sliders. 'Every year, the "super-tactic" designers would fiddle with the sliders until they found some magical, usually crazily random, combination that produced passages of play that the AI couldn't defend. The "corner cheats" were the most obvious, but other passages were always evident. Every year, these "super-tactics" had completely different combinations. Now, if fiddling with sliders until you luck out is "intelligent" playing, then your point stands. If it is just a matter of fiddling until something clever happens (chimps on typewriters) then it falls'. How disrespectful is this? Some people (myself included) spent a lot of time getting a tactic to work with the sliders. I would watch games on full match until I was happy with my tactic and then switch back to key highlights once happy. I can't say that I ever resembled a chimp simply fiddling around until I got lucky and I like to think that because of the observations I was making, my changes were based on these and not luck.

You also imply that the sliders are no longer applicable. Why then can I move sliders to adjust player instructions? If the tactical side of the game no longer has a slider system as it would stunt development of the game long term; surely the inclusion of sliders on player instructions is creating a conflict within the code?

[milnerpoint]

I disagree. Replaying one match over and over is useful for one thing; removing variables. That is in turn useful to determine problem areas with the tactic against that exact type of opponent.

What you in particular need to consider is that we know that the ME is not working properly. Long passes behind the defense are too powerful, so people are playing the game taking that into account. For instance, I just won a match 1-0, where the opponent had 4 woodwork hits and at least 5 one-on-ones with my keeper. Two of them were considered CCC's, even. They had more shots, more possession and it was pretty terrible match for me... and then I got a red card. I then made a change: I went from a flat 343 to using a sweeper AND a defensive midfielder (removing a striker) and went to Counter. That stopped them. Unrealistic tactic, but I don't care - a man has got to do what a man has got to do. That defensive diamond works every time for me against the long pass bug, especially with that third DC and no red card.

That tactic will likely be obsolete once the next patch comes out. As will a lot of other tactics I assume. The thread will be flooded by "aaaargh my poacher who scored twice a match the whole season in 14.1.4 now hasn't got the ball at all in ten matches! After 90 minutes all his stats are at ZERO! Damn you SI!!!!"

Milnerpoint then says "It's your tactic." yeah milner you know you will!

Dont tempt me

[booble]

few things wrong with the game

fullbacks and wingers dont cross the ball

freekicks always skim the top of the bar

teams offering low transfer offers

ridiculous appearance and goal bonus fee. messi is earning a wage of £350000 but gets a goal bonus of £105000!!!

private chat always end up negative

regens are seriouly overpowered. i get messi like potential every seasons

rich teams keep buying players that they dont need

ass man doesnt give enough tactical advice

too many red cards

boards not finding feeder clubs

any ideas when the new patch will be out? will be see a new one after christmas? i really want the wage to be fixed

[Cleon]

Also, on one of your points I have to say I am quite disenchanted if this is the way the game is going. You state that the tactical side of the game is now based on making 'intricate' changes during the match rather than making 'micro changes' to the sliders. If I have a match on key highlights, how am I to really control the tactical side of the game? Surely I won't see enough? This means I would have to watch the game in either extended highlights or full match etc which I simply don't have the time to do. I work, I have a 2 year old daughter and a wife, I don't have the time but I still want to play the game in full mode, not FMC. What is my way around this problem?

You could learn to read the stats and use the analysis tab as a quick way of seeing issues rather than watching the game on longer highlights. And start thinking about FM in simplistic terms and keeping it simple. This thread highlights this approach;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/377489-Creating-A-Tactic-Design-Create-and-Maintain

How disrespectful is this? Some people (myself included) spent a lot of time getting a tactic to work with the sliders. I would watch games on full match until I was happy with my tactic and then switch back to key highlights once happy. I can't say that I ever resembled a chimp simply fiddling around until I got lucky and I like to think that because of the observations I was making, my changes were based on these and not luck.

You've just stated above you don't have time for this.

[stevemc]

teams offering low transfer offers

I took £20m from Spurs for Anderson (Yes, Anderson from Man United), so I can't agree with this point

ridiculous appearance and goal bonus fee. messi is earning a wage of £350000 but gets a goal bonus of £105000!!!

I agree with this, its near impossible to get them to lower their demands too.

[Chao Yang]

In response to transfers, you CAN negotiate with the opposing teams you know. Managed to make PSG pay 60 million for a 21-year old striker/winger just this season in my game. Granted he's world-class, but still, 60 million is silly money.

[milnerpoint]

I think the negotiations are brilliant in this version, you can really bump up a transfer fee or take one down by quite a bit, i negotiated a transfer from £12M down to £5.5 wtih add on's, which in previous verisons was just not possible. The same for taking high values for your players, i am regularly taking in 5x or 6x the value of a player.

[richardh2136]

You've just stated above you don't have time for this.

To play devils advocate, he didnt quite say that.

I'd suggest having to play on full match mode until youve got your tactic tweaked to a T isnt the same thing as having to play on full match mode period.

[Cleon]

To play devils advocate, he didnt quite say that.

I'd suggest having to play on full match mode until youve got your tactic tweaked to a T isnt the same thing as having to play on full match mode period.

No-one has said you have to watch every single game on full mode, that's you taking things out of context.

Once you've got a stable tactic that you are happy with then you should be able to play watching the highlights.

[Beestonite]

You've just stated above you don't have time for this.

No. I think you'll find I stated that I watched full match until I was happy with my tactics then I switched back to key highlights. Watching full match for 3-4 games is ok, I can put up with that. Doing it for an entire season would be excruciating (my opinion). This (full match or extended highlights for an entire season) is what is needed now using the new tactics system if you are going to make 'intricate' changes throughout the match (again in my opinion).

Surely as a mod you could have read between the lines and you didn't need me to explain that?

[Beestonite]

No-one has said you have to watch every single game on full mode, that's you taking things out of context.

Once you've got a stable tactic that you are happy with then you should be able to play watching the highlights.

Isn't that what we (richardh2136 & me) are both saying???

[Cleon]

No. I think you'll find I stated that I watched full match until I was happy with my tactics then I switched back to key highlights. Watching full match for 3-4 games is ok, I can put up with that. Doing it for an entire season would be excruciating (my opinion).

Surely as a mod you could have read between the lines and you didn't need me to explain that?

No-one has said you need to watch every game though in full, that's you and others reading between the lines.

[Cleon]

Isn't that what we (richardh2136 & me) are both saying???

No because you said;

This means I would have to watch the game in either extended highlights or full match etc which I simply don't have the time to do. I work, I have a 2 year old daughter and a wife, I don't have the time but I still want to play the game in full mode, not FMC. What is my way around this problem?

You can watch in just key highlights. You just need to understand the stats from the game better and you can play at the same speed as before.

[milnerpoint]

I've watched about 6 full games in about 6 seasons, 3 of them being cup finals ( i usually play them in full if i can ) there really is no need to watch every game on full highlights if your good at reading the statistics and what they are telling you.

[Beestonite]

You can watch in just key highlights.

I also said in my first post that doing this would be detrimental with the new tactical system as according to wwfan, 'intricate' changes are needed throughout the game rather than micro tweaking of the sliders before the game.

If I watch in key highlights I won't see enough if this is the case....

[Beestonite]

You can watch in just key highlights. You just need to understand the stats from the game better and you can play at the same speed as before.

Stats are after the event???? How can I make changes in game after the event? Or is there a new feature built in the game which tells you the stats before they happen? wwfan was saying the exact opposite of what you're implying. He said the tactical side is now based on in game 'intricate' changes. You are saying look at the stats after the game? Which is it?

[Cleon]

Stats are after the event???? How can I make changes in game after the event? Or is there a new feature built in the game which tells you the stats before they happen? wwfan was saying the exact opposite of what you're implying. He said the tactical side is now based on in game 'intricate' changes. You are saying look at the stats after the game? Which is it?

You can look at stats and see what is going wrong in games while its happening.

Not sure why you are taking such an attitude in the tone you are using I'm trying to help you here. Quite ironic really considering you was on about wwfan's way of talking to people. You know full well what I'm on about I even linked you to a thread where its explained.

[milnerpoint]

Stats are after the event???? How can I make changes in game after the event? Or is there a new feature built in the game which tells you the stats before they happen? wwfan was saying the exact opposite of what you're implying. He said the tactical side is now based on in game 'intricate' changes. You are saying look at the stats after the game? Which is it?

Are you saying before you were able to predict the way the game was going to go and as such were able to make changes prior to them actually being needed? If so that some talent.

[Beestonite]

You can look at stats and see what is going wrong in games while its happening.

Not sure why you are taking such an attitude I'm trying to help you here. Quite ironic really considering you was on about wwfan's way of talking to people..

Hmmm, maybe if your patronising, 'you just stated you didn't have time for this' comment wasn't there and you actually read my post, I wouldn't be so annoyed - also I'm not a Mod and don't represent this forum. Anyway apologies, let's continue.

wwfan actually said 'The reason is that the active component of tactics has shifted away from micro setting sliders to intricately control play to making in-match decisions.' So the intricate I keep referring to is incorrect. My point of him saying the tactical side of the game is now based on in game decisions still stands.

I still don't see how looking at the stats correlates with what wwfan is saying. He is saying the reason SI have changed the system is to reflect real life events. I personally have never seen David Moyes get a stat sheet mid game and base his shouts on those. He bases them on what he sees. Looking at stats is far too slow paced and if you're in key highlights, do stats always reflect the game? This could lead to confusion. How many times have we heard the stats don't reveal the true result? With the new tactical system, surely you have to watch in full or extended to truly get the best out of the game?

[Beestonite]

Are you saying before you were able to predict the way the game was going to go and as such were able to make changes prior to them actually being needed? If so that some talent.

No, but before I had the sliders. I could control my team as I wanted. I don't have that now. As wwfan has said, it doesn't work that way now and I should rely on watching the game and making decisions based on what I see.

[Cleon]

wwfan actually said 'The reason is that the active component of tactics has shifted away from micro setting sliders to intricately control play to making in-match decisions.' So the intricate I keep referring to is incorrect. My point of him saying the tactical side of the game is now based on in game decisions still stands.

This has always been the case though even when we had sliders. If you found yourself not changing anything at all for any game or reacting to the opposition then this only further proves the point wwfan originally made about stumbling upon success without understanding it.

I still don't see how looking at the stats correlates with what wwfan is saying. He is saying the reason SI have changed the system is to reflect real life events.

You mentioned you didn't have time to watch every game on extended highlights or the full game. So the stats can be used as an important tool to see exactly what's wrong if you wish too. You can also use them to spot issues that are occurring without even seeing the game, but this depends on how well you understand them.

I personally have never seen David Moyes get a stat sheet mid game and base his shouts on those. He bases them on what he sees.

Actually he's in touch with an analyst all game too like all top clubs. He will be fully aware of the stats as well as what he's seen visually.

Looking at stats is far too slow paced and if you're in key highlights, do stats always reflect the game?

I don't agree here, it doesn't need to be slow at all. You can view key highlights and keep an eye on the stats and play at a very fast pace and still know what kind of issues you are suffering after a while.

surely you have to watch in full or extended to truly get the best out of the game?

I don't agree here. It depends on how comfortable you are with the other tools you have on offer during the game.

No, but before I had the sliders. I could control my team as I wanted. I don't have that now. As wwfan has said, it doesn't work that way now and I should rely on watching the game and making decisions based on what I see.

If you used a proper logical made tactic with the sliders and didn't rely on exploits or fluking some magical settings to never make changes then you still have the exact same control during a match and don't have to change the way you played.

When you say control in what way are you meaning? How did you spot issues and faults before and how did you fix them with sliders? You should still be able to use whatever method it was.

[milnerpoint]

No, but before I had the sliders. I could control my team as I wanted. I don't have that now. As wwfan has said, it doesn't work that way now and I should rely on watching the game and making decisions based on what I see.

So before you relied on a one situation suits all tactic, now you might have to think about it a bit more. I dont see the issue, football should NEVER be a one tactic suits all conditions kind of game.

This is getting to be stupid tho, you are arguing one side, and saing WWFAN is arguing the exact opposite, which he is not, no one is saying you have to watch every game in full, because you dont have too. There are thousands of people playing this game, not watching full highlights, doing very well.

[Beestonite]

So before you relied on a one situation suits all tactic, now you might have to think about it a bit more. I dont see the issue, football should NEVER be a one tactic suits all conditions kind of game.

This is getting to be stupid tho, you are arguing one side, and saing WWFAN is arguing the exact opposite, which he is not, no one is saying you have to watch every game in full, because you dont have too. There are thousands of people playing this game, not watching full highlights, doing very well.

I'm doing very well. I never said I wasn't. I still don't like the tactical side of it now though. Players do not conform as well as they used to in my opinion. also I ask you the same question, how do I quantify what a shout does? How do I quantify the amount of change which is due to occur when I make a tactical switch with this new method?

I also never said I had one tactic for all. I had three different tactics all being used during any save depending on the situation.

[Beestonite]

This has always been the case though even when we had sliders. If you found yourself not changing anything at all for any game or reacting to the opposition then this only further proves the point wwfan originally made about stumbling upon success without understanding it.

For the sake of easier reading I'll try and answer your points without quoting them all and creating a massive post.

I never said I don't make changes. I just don't think the 'shouts' are as effective as many would think. Also how do I quantify what a shout is actually doing? With the new tactics how do I quantify the degree of change which is being applied?

Also you are contradicting yourself a little. You say 'If you found yourself not changing anything at all for any game or reacting to the opposition then this only further proves the point wwfan originally made about stumbling upon success without understanding it.', but then go on to say 'you still have the exact same control during a match and don't have to change the way you played.'. Am I a moron or not??

I don't think you are understanding the point about stats properly either. A stat shows what has happened after the event. How can it show what is going wrong before it has gone wrong? I might be able to see a full back playing like a pillock, but a stat won't show me that until he makes a mistake and it appears on the stat. Therefore I have to watch the game.

[themadsheep2001]

For the sake of easier reading I'll try and answer your points without quoting them all and creating a massive post.

I never said I don't make changes. I just don't think the 'shouts' are as effective as many would think. Also how do I quantify what a shout is actually doing? With the new tactics how do I quantify degree of change is being applied?

Also you are contradicting yourself a little. You say 'If you found yourself not changing anything at all for any game or reacting to the opposition then this only further proves the point wwfan originally made about stumbling upon success without understanding it.', but then go on to say 'you still have the exact same control during a match and don't have to change the way you played.'. Am I a moron or not??

I don't think you are understanding the point about stats properly either. A stat shows what has happened after the event. How can it show what is going wrong before it has gone wrong?

You get live stats in game. They can tell you where its going wrong. If after the first 20 minutes for example, I have taken 9 shots, and only one of them is inside the box, that tells me straight away that I'm taking too many, and I need to have a look at my build up and how and why its being stopped.

[Totalfootballfan]

Hi,

I’ve already up this subject but let’s do it one more time. -)

It’s excellent idea to mark news in box by color but I don’t understand why it isn’t possible to make news colored whole or at least increase size of it. It would be great if there were such option!

[Beestonite]

You get live stats in game. They can tell you where its going wrong. If after the first 20 minutes for example, I have taken 9 shots, and only one of them is inside the box, that tells me straight away that I'm taking too many, and I need to have a look at my build up and how and why its being stopped.

Jeez, you really go to those lengths? You don't just wait patiently for a better chance after twenty minutes? I know it was an example but using that example, I would wait it out until at least 5 minutes after half time with some harsh words for the team dealt out during the team talk. Then if it didn't change I'd make changes. Bearing in mind in key highlights, the first half can be over in less than 90 seconds, it's hardly time to be reacting to every little detail.

I just think that if it is the case that we need to be making changes on a very regular basis, key highlights shouldn't be an option. The user should be forced down the route of extended so they better understand what's going on.

Edit: For clarity's sake, I am simply playing Devil's Advocate. I see - and love to read - posts in FM careers and see that the game functions perfectly well. Albeit some long termers think FM14 is more problematic than FM13. I too enjoy success in it, I just think there has to be some education within the game, i.e. forcing extended highlights so people understand what the hell is happening in game. We're selling/buying a game with all this detail which can be lost in key highlights!

[Dagenham_Dave]

You don't need highlights at all to know what's happening. Many people watch the game in commentary only mode, and can still react to what's happening in-game.

Incidentally, you don't HAVE to tweak and change all the way through every game, but in some matches it can make a huge difference. I love the way that FM has moved forward in this regard. It's making things more difficult for sure, but it's also putting the onus on you to change it in a logical fashion, not by moving sliders about until you magically hit on a winning formula.

[Cleon]

Jeez, you really go to those lengths? You don't just wait patiently for a better chance after twenty minutes? I know it was an example but using that example, I would wait it out until at least 5 minutes after half time with some harsh words for the team dealt out during the team talk. Then if it didn't change I'd make changes. Bearing in mind in key highlights, the first half can be over in less than 90 seconds, it's hardly time to be reacting to every little detail.

I just think that if it is the case that we need to be making changes on a very regular basis, key highlights shouldn't be an option. The user should be forced down the route of extended so they better understand what's going on.

How does a team talk solve a tactical issue of someone wasting chances because they have no support or passing options because the support players have been marked? Taking a quick 10 second look to view the analysis tab and watch the clip back can be the difference between a loss or a win. You can turn a blind eye if you wish but the problem doesn't magically go away it'll still be there. The sooner you sort it the more successful you'll be during the game. Not only that but it shows you what the issue is rather than guessing.

[themadsheep2001]

Jeez, you really go to those lengths? You don't just wait patiently for a better chance after twenty minutes? I know it was an example but using that example, I would wait it out until at least 5 minutes after half time with some harsh words for the team dealt out during the team talk. Then if it didn't change I'd make changes. Bearing in mind in key highlights, the first half can be over in less than 90 seconds, it's hardly time to be reacting to every little detail.

I just think that if it is the case that we need to be making changes on a very regular basis, key highlights shouldn't be an option. The user should be forced down the route of extended so they better understand what's going on.

Its not lengths at all, its in fact no work at all. The match stat widget is open in my bottom right hand corner of the screen. I never have to break away from watching the game to see the stats.

No I wouldnt wait, because its clear my side are not patiently waiting for a chance, 8 long shots in 20 minutes is rushed build up.

A team talk is not what I need, depending on where the shots were from I would need give a few instructions ( last time this happened it was because they were not gettign enough time in the middle of the pitch so I stretched the play, 2 well worked goals came before half time).

[Beestonite]

You don't need highlights at all to know what's happening. Many people watch the game in commentary only mode, and can still react to what's happening in-game.

Incidentally, you don't HAVE to tweak and change all the way through every game, but in some matches it can make a huge difference. I love the way that FM has moved forward in this regard. It's making things more difficult for sure, but it's also putting the onus on you to change it in a logical fashion, not by moving sliders about until you magically hit on a winning formula.

Again, I think sliders are taking a damn harsh beating here. They were very simple to use if you could understand them. Keeping a team philosophy was vital and too many people fiddled with individual sliders which in my opinion and experience messed it up. Sliders are also still there!!

[Beestonite]

How does a team talk solve a tactical issue of someone wasting chances because they have no support or passing options because the support players have been marked? Taking a quick 10 second look to view the analysis tab and watch the clip back can be the difference between a loss or a win. You can turn a blind eye if you wish but the problem doesn't magically go away it'll still be there. The sooner you sort it the more successful you'll be during the game.

Did I say I wasn't successful? I do great and always have! Billericay in the PL is pretty good I think.

Also I was referring to his example when explaining about the team talk. You just put a different spin on it and said I would still use team talk. How do you know I would? You seem to assume a lot.

[jimbob1000]

Can i just say, i start every new FM with the intention to play the game properly.

What i mean by that is not just using a plug and play tactic, but making changes in game as i see fit.

Now, there are a few major issues that come with playing the game straight as far as i can see.

1. The ME - I think it looks absolutely awful and does not remind me much of watching football(which i love to do)

2. We are made to think that by watching games we can work out what we are doing wrong on the pitch and as such make relevant changes to our tactics during games - Errrrrrrrrrr no, 80% of all goals i concede are individual errors that are clearly not tactical in any way.

3. I always do better playing plug and play than i do playing the game straight and i mean Always plus, by playing plug and play the team learn the tactic quicker whereas if i make changes the tactic always becomes slightly un-learned(is that a word?)

So lets take my current save with a plug and play tactic. I started as West Ham and with absolutely NO signings i finished 2nd in the EPL first season. In the 2nd season i finished 3rd which i put down to having to replace a lot of aged and poor players in my squad. In season 3 i won the EPL by 12 points, the Capital Cup AND the Champions League.

Amazing eh? only thing is, i would have been happier playing the game straight and slowly but surely building up my team to challenge over a number of seasons, but i just cannot get that to work, so i take the easy option, which at this stage in FM's development should not even really be an option.

Anyway, i think the above is how a lot of people tend to end up playing the game, for the reasons stated above.

Well that's my story anyway for what its worth.

[Beestonite]

Its not lengths at all, its in fact no work at all. The match stat widget is open in my bottom right hand corner of the screen. I never have to break away from watching the game to see the stats.

No I wouldnt wait, because its clear my side are not patiently waiting for a chance, 8 long shots in 20 minutes is rushed build up.

A team talk is not what I need, depending on where the shots were from I would need give a few instructions ( last time this happened it was because they were not gettign enough time in the middle of the pitch so I stretched the play, 2 well worked goals came before half time).

What would you do then? - Your post changed after I quoted it! Seen the explanation now....

[Beestonite]

Its not lengths at all, its in fact no work at all. The match stat widget is open in my bottom right hand corner of the screen. I never have to break away from watching the game to see the stats.

No I wouldnt wait, because its clear my side are not patiently waiting for a chance, 8 long shots in 20 minutes is rushed build up.

A team talk is not what I need, depending on where the shots were from I would need give a few instructions ( last time this happened it was because they were not gettign enough time in the middle of the pitch so I stretched the play, 2 well worked goals came before half time).

I still don't like the idea of relying on stats. I like to see what is happening and to do this in key highlights is becoming more and more difficult. I like to see if my full backs are behaving as I want them to. Same with the rest of the team. Behaviour is different to a stat. The tactic might not work but if they do as they're told then that's on my head.

[Cleon]

Did I say I wasn't successful? I do great and always have! Billericay in the PL is pretty good I think.

Also I was referring to his example when explaining about the team talk. You just put a different spin on it and said I would still use team talk. How do you know I would? You seem to assume a lot.

I never said you didn't have success at all stop seeing stuff that isn't written and please change the tone you are using its not warranted. I asked you a genuine question based on your reply to themadsheep. You said you'd leave it and wait for a better chance or the team talk but why? You'd not know what the issue was unless you had used the stats or watched the game in a higher detail than key highlights.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I still don't like the idea of relying on stats. I like to see what is happening and to do this in key highlights is becoming more and more difficult..

More difficult how? How is it any different to previous versions of the game? The only difference is that prior to FM13, 'key' highlights was just what 'extended' is now.

[milnerpoint]

Again, I think sliders are taking a damn harsh beating here. They were very simple to use if you could understand them. Keeping a team philosophy was vital and too many people fiddled with individual sliders which in my opinion and experience messed it up. Sliders are also still there!!

Yes but the issue was, the vast majority of people DIDN't understand them, you may have done after a lot of messing around and experimenting, something most people dont have the time for. So your saying you dont have time to watch games, whilst at the same time saying you used to have time to sit down and figure out what setting width to 6 and defensive line to 4 actually did. ( to understand the sliders you would have had to understand what each notch represented in the ME terms i would have said)

[MrPompey]

I'm doing very well. I never said I wasn't. I still don't like the tactical side of it now though. Players do not conform as well as they used to in my opinion. also I ask you the same question, how do I quantify what a shout does? How do I quantify the amount of change which is due to occur when I make a tactical switch with this new method?

I also never said I had one tactic for all. I had three different tactics all being used during any save depending on the situation.

This is the problem I think - "having 3 different tactics"

I might normally have a home and an away tactic but I would look at the opposition in each match and adjust accordingly whether it be a slider or something different. I really don't think you can religeously apply the same tactic and expect the same result. This doesn't happen in real life

The other point is that continuously changing tactics during a match is going to upset your team, you need to give time during a match, even sometimes if you go a goal down. Admittedly in the last 10-15 mins you may go extreme if you are a goal down and want to try and salvage a point. Sometimes despite having a better team and a better tactical approach the opposition can get lucky

Its very rare to have any post here when the score a winner in the last few minutes, or recover from being 2-0 down at half time yet when it happens in reverse people get angry

Football is played over a season and tactics may need a longer period to run to be able to judge how effective they are. What seems to happen is people get a bad run of a few games or one game where they dominate yet lose 1 nil and say the ME is flawed.

If you look at real life then these things happen. Look at some of the the so called top clubs and results they are having.

[milnerpoint]

You don't need highlights at all to know what's happening. Many people watch the game in commentary only mode, and can still react to what's happening in-game.

Thats the thing, long before the 3d engine and before the 2d engine, we got away fine with working it all out based on statistics and text commentary, no one complained that much about not being able to see their team on the pitch.

[Cleon]

I still don't like the idea of relying on stats. I like to see what is happening and to do this in key highlights is becoming more and more difficult. I like to see if my full backs are behaving as I want them to. Same with the rest of the team. Behaviour is different to a stat. The tactic might not work but if they do as they're told then that's on my head.

Key highlights are heavily biased to the bits of play where something happened so even before FM14 you'd not see if the fullbacks were behaving how you wanted them too unless it was involved in the clip the highlight was chosen to be a key incident. This has always been the same on every version.