Match Engine Update 13.1.3 - quick overview. ME feedback here please.

[JamesTKirk]

maybe your tactics are just poor or the opposition got wise. If you play the same tactics every week then it will happen. You think that happens irl?

Except my tactics got my Tranmere team promoted and I was on course for the play-offs pre-patch.

This isn't mentioning the amount of times my keepers or the fact I regularly lose 2 or 3 nil now with them getting 0 clear cut chances while I get 2-3. Worst patch ever.

[fmFutbolManager]

Had a night to sleep on this.

I accept the goalkeeper from my screen shot was being closed down, but he received the ball a lot earlier than the screenshot people are quoting. perhaps I should have posted the video. He had time to hit it first time. Compounded by the fact it caused me to lose the game 2-1 just made the scenario worse, but I accept this could happen in real life.

The shooting (I don't know why people keep quoting my 20-30 shots comment) is a lot better. I was seeing too high amount of shots, not it's more realistic. Possession is better and the movement is more fluid.

I will have another go. I keep forgetting I'm a lower ranked team in my league and going to accept mistakes and losses will happen, but pre-patch ME I was winning and doing well. Post-patch ME I've picked up one point in nine.

Will head over to the tactics forum tonight for help in that area.

There's clearly nothing wrong with the ME in terms of player injuries, as since the patch, I've hardly had any, same as before. That's normally because I pay close attention to players fitness levels (particularly match fitness levels) and never play a hard tackling, pressing game for the entire 90 minutes. These are the things that cause multiple injuries outwith the normal unlucky ones (training, hamstring, etc), just as they do IRL. Previous incarnations of the ME were more forgiving of this, which was slighly unrealistic.

You could of course, be careful with all of that and still get a lot of injuries, but that's football. It happens. However, I firmly believe that your chances of these injuries will be greatly lessened by being sensible with your players.

You always do this. State there is clearly no problem, unless it's a problem with you. You did it with the ME, accusing players of making things up because you hadn't experienced them, there couldn't possibly be a problem. And then when you started to experience issues it was the worst ME update ever. It's not conducive to having fixes when you keep playing down problems because you've not experienced them.

My team have been relatively injury free all of last season and this. When I applied the updated ME I had to take two players off in the first game, with two others picking up knocks and staying on, the opponent also had to take off two and left one on with a knock. The second game I also picked up a couple of knocks. Someone else had posted their game with six or seven injuries.

Something has been tweaked, which has had an affect on injuries. I personally think it is fixing the pressing issue that's caused it. Players are being closed down quickly when they should be, and sticking a foot in more now (particularly fullbacks), and this could be causing more injuries since there are more tackles being made as a by product.

Just because you don't have the problem, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[dazbowski]

MrPompey do Barca ever change their tactics?

[Herbert Fandel]

Just because you don't have the problem, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Very true. Also true that just because you have the problem doesn't mean it is there.

If there was a bug with the game, everyone would have too many injuries.

Not everyone does, which at the very least suggests there is a tactical/substitution/training set-up which prevents too many injuries.

It is possible SI might want to re-evaluate the ease with which players can avoid too many injuries, but that doesn't mean there clearly is something wrong

[Ackter]

MrPompey do Barca ever change their tactics?

Yes, several times a match.

Why do so many people confuse formation and tactics?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Then you'd have a team breezing through League Two either on your way to glory or to a big pay day when you sell off all your unlikely talents to bigger clubs.

Tiki-Taka requires excellent technical and mental stats, which most players of that level are unlikely to have without serious compromises elsewhere to their other attributes or hidden qualities.

Well "selected"

[MrPompey]

MrPompey do Barca ever change their tactics?

They mostly always play attacking football but of course they do. One of the reasons for their success is their unpredictablilty with players swapping between defence and attack despite what their normal roles would be. look at Messi in a match and figure out exactly what position he is playing...it varies per game and during the game...in my opinion that is

[Soldatino]

It seems like there is slightly higher quantity of own-goals. Both scored for and against. It might be just coincidence, but in about 10 matches (pre season + league) I have scored this way 4 goals, and conceded 5.

[Butters76]

Yes, several times a match.

Why do so many people confuse formation and tactics?

Arsene Wenger doesn't atleast, he's got no plan B. Always the same tactics, and when it doesn't work the team keeps banging their heads against a wall.

But haven't SI devs stated several times (earlier versions, even fm12) that there is no such thing as teams learning your tactics, it has everyting to do with reputation after you've had a great season. So next season the other teams approch the matches against you differently?

[miky10]

I really do not understand all these complaints, many of the errors seen in the video in this forum are realistic, errors that occur in real life (maybe even worse!), perhaps many were used with earlier versions where there was never a mistake and striking that was not real! since the last update I've only done the first two friendlies and I must say that I found a gorgeous graphics than the old versions and the ME is greatly improved, there are many things realistic, I saw for the first time a heel made ​​by my player :-), cmq I think we should all enjoy this beautiful game, tHE BEST FOOTBALL MANAGER EVER

[Ackter]

Arsenal play in several different ways, unfortunately they're limited because of the type of players he has so they're all in a similar style.

[MacZidane]

All those 5 clear cuts were missed by Jay Rodriguez, .

I'm beginning to spot the reason here...

[MrPompey]

Arsene Wenger doesn't atleast, he's got no plan B. Always the same tactics, and when it doesn't work the team keeps banging their heads against a wall.

But haven't SI devs stated several times (earlier versions, even fm12) that there is no such thing as teams learning your tactics, it has everyting to do with reputation after you've had a great season. So next season the other teams approch the matches against you differently?

The AI will get wise.....in the past it used to be 12 to 18 months

Though of course Paul C will confirm exactly I'm sure

[pigfacemonkeyman]

.....Because it is not all I have ever played and I know how the TC works. I have no doubt that any logically structured TC system will be effective.

Given the amount of new and persistant bugs in the game, are you confidant that the Tactics Creator works exactly as intended? I am not having a go or trying to be funny. It seems that hardly anyone considers the TC when calling "bug", "it's your tactics", "you're exploiting the ME" etc. Is it at all possible that something in the TC might conflict with recent changes in other parts of the game?

[iknowniknuk]

Then you'd have a team breezing through League Two either on your way to glory or to a big pay day when you sell off all your unlikely talents to bigger clubs.

Tiki-Taka requires excellent technical and mental stats, which most players of that level are unlikely to have without serious compromises elsewhere to their other attributes or hidden qualities.

I think many people, me for one, are using tactics that are beyond their players skills and abilities. The general consesus does seem to be with this ME that simplier is often better, untill at least a few years into the game where we have players comparable to the likes of Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc.

I've fiddled with a few tactics/formations/player roles, and yet to find one that works for me and my team, but thats the fun of it all!

[AndyFromDonny]

I've been a bit hit and miss but I'm slowly I think figuring out my mistakes. I think we need moreso than ever before to bring in players to fit our team (makes it a tougher ask to get going) and how we want to play. EG I just played Sheff Wednesday with a more rigid approach and the weakness was my players up front didn't move enough. Switched to a more standard, fluid approach I think works better as there's more movement solving my problem. It's a WIP but I think it will eventually get right.

As for these 'bugs' spoken of, some are, some though are just genuine mistakes from players, they need character not robotic tendencies, my keeper Gary Woods just misplaced a kick horribly, given I watch him every week I'd call that realism not a bug.

[fmFutbolManager]

Very true. Also true that just because you have the problem doesn't mean it is there.

If there was a bug with the game, everyone would have too many injuries.

Not everyone does, which at the very least suggests there is a tactical/substitution/training set-up which prevents too many injuries.

It is possible SI might want to re-evaluate the ease with which players can avoid too many injuries, but that doesn't mean there clearly is something wrong

As I said, I think it is a by-product of the pressing being changed. It would be interesting to set up a game between two controlled teams. Play one game with low pressing for both sides and then replay the game with pressing more selected for both sides and see what affect that has. I'm sure since pressing has changed, this is causing it. My injuries have come from my players being hit in and around the outside of the area. But I could be way off here and completely wrong.

Out of interest, if you don't have these issues, do you play a pressing game?

[DaveM1965]

When I first started the game I imported an old tactic from FM12 and expected it to work brilliantly as it did in FM12. The new FM13 Match engine has been rewritten and I became frustrated with the tactic and blamed the game

After the new patch {13.1.3} I decided to rebuild the tactic and after alot (and I mean) alot of work I have a tactic that works.

Why not read this thread! http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/331536-Trident-Tactic-Released-for-FM13-Version-13.1.3

[MrPompey]

I think many people, me for one, are using tactics that are beyond their players skills and abilities. The general consesus does seem to be with this ME that simplier is often better, untill at least a few years into the game where we have players comparable to the likes of Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc.

I've fiddled with a few tactics/formations/player roles, and yet to find one that works for me and my team, but thats the fun of it all!

and often the most simplest of tactics are successful. Just look what Mancini has been doing in over complicating his defence and playing a zonal marking system for defensive set pieces, changing betwwn a back 4 and a back 3 for example...its become a mess and look what has happened in their exit from teh Champions league. In comparison look back to the Arsenal fortress defence of years gone by....simple tactics, simply employed that suited player's abilities

[hluraven]

For so many of the issues, the problem is not that they happen once, but the frequency. Horrfic goalie errors, matches with 0 shots from a team, injury crises, own goals etc, they all should be able to happen. If they never happen, that is wrong. If they happen "all the time" that is wrong. The challenge is in the balance, and this is also skewed by perceptions of what happns IRL, which is not always the same as what people believe happens IRL.

The errors - these may be a little high, especially from goalies and immoble centre backs. They should happen, but may be too frequent.

Injuries - these should happen and probably even more than with 13.1.3 They are a major part of football and I haven't seen any examples posted that can't be matched by real life, but plenty of examples of not enough.

Own goals - Yes, too many

Not enough shots - While it should be possible to have teams with 0 shots at all (Tottenham last night for a real life example), I think everyone accepts there are not enough shots in 13.1.3

I guess my point is that using the worst single example from a small sample size is pointless, proper statistics over time need to be analysed before concluding, which is something SI do very well normally.

[MrPompey]

hluraven - own goals. I thnk you really going to need the results of several season's of soak tests and compare these with actuals over the last few seasons to prove a point.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I honestly dont know. In these cases its best to have the evidence else its a gut feel and may be linked to just a small run of them that you witnessed.

I always get het up when opposition always seem to score against me in the last minute and I make note of it. I seem to accidently forget to count when it happens in my favour...I hope you see what i mean.

Anyway its worth a soak test or 2 just to see what you find

[hluraven]

hluraven - own goals. I thnk you really going to need the results of several season's of soak tests and compare these with actuals over the last few seasons to prove a point.

Couldn't agree more, I did exactly what I was counselling against there! My instinct says too many own goals, but sample size is not enough.

[Butters76]

Originally Posted by wwfan

.....Because it is not all I have ever played and I know how the TC works. I have no doubt that any logically structured TC system will be effective.

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Hmm, how come you have to tweak the @£$¤ out of the pre-made tactics to get them to work then? Are you saying those arn't logical?

This is the only (and I mean only) tactics I've gotten to work in 13.1.3 , but it works very well with both Arsenal and Sheffield Utd. Only difference is I use BPD with Arsenal

And I have set longshots to rarely on every single player except the BBM

Attack movement before home games and teamwork before away games.

[wwfan]

Originally Posted by wwfan

.....Because it is not all I have ever played and I know how the TC works. I have no doubt that any logically structured TC system will be effective.

-------------

Hmm, how come you have to tweak the @£$¤ out of the pre-made tactics to get them to work then? Are you saying those arn't logical?

The TC defaults are nothing more than solid. However, you don't need to do much if any manual slider tweaking to develop a perfectly sound base tactic. You only need to set logical roles and duties. From thereon in, use the strategies and shouts to impose a style, adjust to conditions or react to match situations.

[Ackter]

I haven't touched a slider since the TC was introduced.

[wwfan]

I haven't touched a slider since the TC was introduced.

I've never touched a team slider and only ever touched individual sliders to cope with PPMs.

[Ackter]

I just work directly on the PPMs with the coaches.

[milnerpoint]

I wouldnt touch any slider either, i have no idea what they mean in terms of changing gameplay. I only change sensible things that make sense in my head, changing def line from 4 clicks to 6 clicks makes no sense to me at all and i just find that system far too complicated and unrealistic.

I use basic sets ups, and lots of different shout combo's, just had to create a few new ones since the update which has been good fun. I train PPM's if i want certain players to do certain things and thats about it.

[wwfan]

I just work directly on the PPMs with the coaches.

I do that too. The only time I've ever touched an individual slider from memory was to tone down long shots for my AP, who couldn't unlearn the PPM.

[Ackter]

Ah see, I just go "oh alright then, you can take long shots" and carry on as normal.

[wwfan]

Ah see, I just go "oh alright then, you can take long shots" and carry on as normal.

Still meant he had them at mixed. I just didn't see the logic of an AP with long shots at often. He can't play make then.

[PaulC]

The AI will get wise.....in the past it used to be 12 to 18 months

Though of course Paul C will confirm exactly I'm sure

To re-confirm....the AI do not "learn" or "crack" your tactics.

[Butters76]

To re-confirm....the AI do not "learn" or "crack" your tactics.

Then I remember correctly, I'm sure I have seen SI staff say this many times before. And that the thing is, after you have a great season the AI teams will approach the matches against you differently next season due to your reputation going up. Correct?

Sidenote: WWfan, is your old tactics theorism (taken from memory) thread deleted? I just can't find it.

[Ackter]

Correct. They'll react to your reputation and abilities, compared to their own, and change how they approach their matches against you.

[Tubbs]

All well and good, but I haven't had to change a thing and my results haven't altered at all. 4-4-2 in every match I've played in FM13 thus far.

Would you consider posting a breakdown of your 4-4-2, so that i can compare mine against it to try and see where i may be going a bit wrong. With my current 442 there are simply too few attempts on goal..sadly

[fmFutbolManager]

Correct. They'll react to your reputation and abilities, compared to their own, and change how they approach their matches against you.

Would they also react to your moral and form? Or is it just reputation and squad ability?

[PaulC]

I dont think it happens on a "seasonal" basis as such. Your reputation changes dynamically through a season too, plus the longer the season goes, the more seriously they take your league position etc.....

[Ackter]

I dont think it happens on a "seasonal" basis as such. Your reputation changes dynamically through a season too, plus the longer the season goes, the more seriously they take your league position etc.....

It probably appears to be more of a seasonal thing because the end of the season is where all finishing positions are confirmed, so you're more likely to get a reputation boost then - added to most teams strengthening in the summer meaning your team rep will be higher too for the next season etc

[pigfacemonkeyman]

maybe your tactics are just poor or the opposition got wise. If you play the same tactics every week then it will happen. You think that happens irl?

I thought the opposition didn't learn your tactics - wwfan, "...(as your reference to the 'AI learns your tactic so change it before a match' myth gives away). " (post #854 above)

EDIT; I posted this a page ago whilst catching up with the thread. Obviously, it's since been dealt with.

[Ackter]

I thought the opposition didn't learn your tactics - wwfan, "...(as your reference to the 'AI learns your tactic so change it before a match' myth gives away). " (post #854 above)

They don't, but if a tactic weak to defensive play is what gets you to a certain position, once the AI wises up and stops taking you for granted, you'll find yourself struggling.

A lot of people's tactics work well in season one because they're good against teams that attack. This is also why some teams start to lose horribly after christmas. The weaker your tactic is overall, the quicker you'll see it failing. It's also why you tend to get posts like "But I can beat Chelsea 3-0, I shouldn't then lose to West Ham 4-0!".

[wwfan]

Then I remember correctly, I'm sure I have seen SI staff say this many times before. And that the thing is, after you have a great season the AI teams will approach the matches against you differently next season due to your reputation going up. Correct?

Sidenote: WWfan, is your old tactics theorism (taken from memory) thread deleted? I just can't find it.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/159310-Tactical-Theorems-amp-Frameworks

[wanderer89]

The shots to goal ratio is so unbelievable, every game, they have 4-5 shots, scored 4-5 goals, every attack leads to a goal, it's pathetic.

Also, why have you removed arms from the keepers on this edition? I'm sure I've seen keepers with them in real life, but they don't seem to have them on FM, or at least if they do, they don't use them.

[Ackter]

The shots to goal ratio is so unbelievable, every game, they have 4-5 shots, scored 4-5 goals, every attack leads to a goal, it's pathetic.

Tactics forum would be a good start for you.

[andu1]

Ackter, this is not for tactics forum. This happens often between AI teams, i even saw a game with 1-1 shots on target all game.

And i say again, AI vs AI

It's like the game is trying to compensate the lack of shots with goals.

[ajw10]

I'm definitely getting a lot of own goals now. That's 4 in the last 5.

[wanderer89]

Tactics forum would be a good start for you.

Funnily enough, I had a tactic working fine thanks, then since the update, gone to pot, shots right at them, do they save it? No. An inch to the side, do they? No.

[Ackter]

Ackter, this is not for tactics forum. This happens often between AI teams, i even saw a game with 1-1 shots on target all game.

And i say again, AI vs AI

Then post PKM examples in the bugs forum, please, so they can get looked at.

[daylight]

Is it also the reputation that determines the pre-match nonsense?

I mean the first game of the season and seemingly "the referee gets this 6 pointer under way".

Also after some 30 something matches when I play the bottom team,I am at home and top of the league and the guy is saying that he does not fancy my team to win and says it will be 3 points for the whipping boys in the league who have not managed a win in their last 6 games

[Ackter]

Funnily enough, I had a tactic working fine thanks, then since the update, gone to pot, shots right at them, do they save it? No. An inch to the side, do they? No.

It's already been explained, quite at depth, why a tactic working before the patch might not work after it.

Best place is the tactics forum. If you're unable to solve this problem with their help, then it'll be a bugs forum thing.

[CityAndColour]

Am struggling a lot with balls played through the middle of my centre-halves since the update (although still getting good results as my attacking play has been great). Just a couple of questions from a tactical novice, and hopefully appropriate to be asked in here given it's become a mini tactical discussion anyway...

1) Does have a stopper/cover combination give you a better or worse chance of cutting out balls through the middle? I'd have said better but they both seem to stay apart from each other.

2) I have three central midfielders. Right now I have my AP (support) as the middle one, with the defensive-minded one on the left. Would switching these two around make any difference or should the defensive one be adjusting his position to drop in behind anyway?