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Football Manager 2013


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You should be able to make a mini playing history for yourself, or at least choose more than one favourite club. Look at paolo di canio, he would easily have both Lazio and West Ham as favoured clubs.

Also, if you choose past experience as a professional footballer, this could mean you were a lower league journeyman, battling around in league two/bsp, or a star premier league winning centre back, such as Steve Bruce.

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Haven't read back but:

1) Better match animations. Conceded a goal today where the ball was pumped over the top straight to my keeper. He stood next to it doing nothing whilst the oppo striker just took it and scored.

2) Better AI managers. Or least ones that match their stats. Someone with a 5 for tactics plays basic tactics and doesn't react to mine well. Someone with 18 on tactics able to react to mine better. Maybe a squad building stat as well and that decides how well they keep regens and ditch older players.

3) NO NEW GIMMICKS. Just improvement of the current ones. Flaws attended to and fixed.

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Haven't read back but:

1) Better match animations. Conceded a goal today where the ball was pumped over the top straight to my keeper. He stood next to it doing nothing whilst the oppo striker just took it and scored.

2) Better AI managers. Or least ones that match their stats. Someone with a 5 for tactics plays basic tactics and doesn't react to mine well. Someone with 18 on tactics able to react to mine better. Maybe a squad building stat as well and that decides how well they keep regens and ditch older players.

3) NO NEW GIMMICKS. Just improvement of the current ones. Flaws attended to and fixed.

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Everyone always ask for no new gimmicks. But they can't really do that. Some things they are adding have being worked on for 2 or 3 years and scheduled into a release. It's required improvements and adds to the game play.

They are working on fixing a lot of things, but not just one or two things, but 100's of things. They can't satisfy everyone, so they put everything into a list of priorities.

There are some things that are long term goals and some that can be resolved immediately.

There's lots of things that need to be smashed home by the next big meeting. And some of those things are in development for years. And the bosses want to see results in these areas.

New features will always happen.

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Scouting - Maybe it's just me but there really doesn't seem to be much difference in the accuracy of scout reports between scouts of different abilities. When they're scouting a competition or nation, good scouts find more players and present more info on them, but the accuracy of the reports seems to be much the same whether it's Luciano D'Onofrio or Ruel Fox doing the scouting. Sure, Luciano might tell me more, like the expected wage demands and so on, but they both come back with exactly the same star ratings, and if they estimate the purchase price then they both estimate it to be exactly the same. So, really, the only difference between a bad scout and a good scout seems to be the quantity of reports and info, not the quality and reliability of them.

I disagree. 20/20 scouts provide much more reliable information than any others and high teen scouts sure seem better than lower ones.

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  • SI Staff
I love the game. I find the depth of the database to be amazing and generally enjoy the playing experience.

I have two main problems with the game however:

<snip>

2. Bad background research for smaller leagues in Eastern Europe is another problem. I am not an expert on all leagues in this region, but there are awful errors with regards to rivalries in the Polish league. For example it has Polonia Warsaw down as a major rival for Legia which is ridiculous. Polonia is a tiny club with no fans that nobody cares about. They are definitely not a big rival for Legia. Legia's main rivals are Widzew, Wisla and Lech. Another is the claim that GKS Katowice are major rivals with Widzew. Gieksa and Widzew are not rivals at all. The fans sometimes fight because Widzew are friendly with Ruch (and attend Ruch games) who are rivals with Gieksa but in terms of rivalries between the clubs nothing exists. I also played in Romania as Poli Timisoara who the game claims to be a major rival of Rapid Bucharest. This is also incorrect as the clubs are actually on excellent terms and are famous for their friendship. I can't list all of the rivalry errors as there are so many, but it is something that needs to be looked into.

These are your personal opinions.

Feel free to post what you perceive to be such errors in the relevant nation thread in Data Issues. The Polish research team are very hard-working, and I am sure they will consider the points you make. If you "cannot list" them all then that's up to you, but by keeping errors in your head then we have no way of knowing if they are errors.

It is pointless posting what you see as research errors here as Eastern European Head Researchers are unlikely to see them in this thread.

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Personally I'd love to see the way stats grow change and make it less dependant on a CA/PA system that has everything and all stats included in one big mass... I'd like to see more people being able to improve and not stay put to a level of being worse than being handicapped. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Physical and mental limits is something,but the "practice makes perfect" moto is not reflected enough in-game in my opinion.

Some more contact with the players to directly convince them to try harder on training wouldn't hurt either. At least some options to make a player a little more ambitious or overzealous towards his career that could potentially change his whole growth. (to the better or worse depending on how it goes)

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Transfer deadline day..

In all my saves I have not seen ANY transfers go through in the premier league on deadline day. Is this just me or is it slightly boring? There should be more hype, and a more entertaining feel to the deadline day.

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Should put in an option to start without transfer budget for both the summer and January transfer window with the usual official data update that's being released Feb/March.

I like that idea!

Transfer deadline day..

In all my saves I have not seen ANY transfers go through in the premier league on deadline day. Is this just me or is it slightly boring? There should be more hype, and a more entertaining feel to the deadline day.

Definitely agree. Don't want to compare FM to FIFA but... one very nice feature in the latest FIFA is that the game's continue-period slows to hour-by-hour on Deadline Day, and you get a series of Deadline Day updates as you would if watching the event on SkySports or the like. Adds a nice feel of realism to the game and makes the transfer window actually feel like a mad rush to get things done, instead of everything being wrapped up in the first coupla weeks.

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That would be very tedious. I don't care what other teams are buying on transfer deadline and getting news messages every hour?

I'd rather a summary list of all the transfers or something, or at least int he leagues you're subscribed to.

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That would be very tedious. I don't care what other teams are buying on transfer deadline and getting news messages every hour?

I'd rather a summary list of all the transfers or something, or at least int he leagues you're subscribed to.

I wasn't suggesting it should be exactly that (though it did only take about two minute to skip through if you weren't interested in reading the updates) just that more of a deal needs to be made about Deadline Day.

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Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but isn't the Deadline Day Extravaganza™ a purely British/English phenomemon? Considering the game is played widely beyond these shores it doesn't seem like it would be something necessary.

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Sort the '48 months payment' thing out. Makes the game easy, as i'll always gamble the clubs financial future on deals due to my knowhow of the game, so basically means i get 4X transfer budget. Maybe they could warn you about spending (cuts £... off next years budget...) Must sell ... of players in the next window... You get the drift, more of a relationship with you and the finance manager needed. The board never help sanction a transfer too.

Also, i've never had a red card rescinded.

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Short term scenario mode with downloadable real life content, including historical scenarios. Imagine replicating leading England to glory in 1966 or winning the premiership with Newcastle that season that they threw a 12 point lead away...!

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I personally agree that the home kit should remain the same as they rarely change sufficiently, however being able to customise your away kit each year is a great idea. Also I think the training could be improved and changed completely. I can't remember if it has been used in football manager or maybe championship manager but being mire specific in picking what you work on at different times of the day I.e 9am-10am weights, 10-10.20 possession, 10.30-11 small sided games or full 11 v 11, then allows you to decide if you do afternoon sessions such as sprint training or choose to rest... As mentioned this has been done in a game before and i think it is very realistic and a great feature as it is what is carried out in every club in the world rather than being vague and just calling it fitness. I just feel it gives you more hands on control on your workload and makes you think more rather than dragging a bar to the desired level! Also media questions needs improving as it does become predictable. Overall a great game just needs tweaking

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Also I think the training could be improved and changed completely. I can't remember if it has been used in football manager or maybe championship manager but being mire specific in picking what you work on at different times of the day I.e 9am-10am weights, 10-10.20 possession, 10.30-11 small sided games or full 11 v 11, then allows you to decide if you do afternoon sessions such as sprint training or choose to rest... As mentioned this has been done in a game before and i think it is very realistic and a great feature as it is what is carried out in every club in the world rather than being vague and just calling it fitness. I just feel it gives you more hands on control on your workload and makes you think more rather than dragging a bar to the desired level! Also media questions needs improving as it does become predictable. Overall a great game just needs tweaking

Whilst I haven't had personal experience with this when it was in the game I have read some animated discussion regarding it, and it wasn't overly positive.

In thinking about it, I have reservations. It can only really operate in a couple of ways,

1: By setting various times and options as you have suggested, it adds to the overall workload and thereby has the effect of what the training module currently has. Which in essence then it becomes mainly a cosmetic feature giving an illusion of doing something more, and in turn would end up creating uproar amongst users a s being a pointless feature, time wasting, too involved etc

or

2:By setting various times and options as you have suggested, it has a much greater impact and, in the event you set the wrong schedule or regimen the potential for a damaging effect is greatly increased. Which then creates the same uproar from people saying it is too complex, time wasting , just give me back the old training module where I can set a schedule and be done with it thread.

I am however happy to be convinced otherwise :)

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Too early to start one of these threads? xD

It may actually be quite late already. I assume that SI have already the main decisions on which main routes to follow for the game's next iteration.

Great post however :thup:

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I agree with you some people might moan but it all depends on the player, I personally like to be involved in everything that a football manager should do such as training and making your players better abs spend alot of time doing this! I don't fast forward games I take my time with it but each to there own and the sane principle applies to the training. Some people would see it as a waste but personally I feel it would improve the game dramatically for those who want to be involved as much as they can, there could be an automatic option for players who want to make it as easy as possible. It would be a risk for football manager to change this but in my opinion what is the point in playing the same game every year... It is something different as is being able to select away kits... It's realistic, things such as designing your new stadium isn't! But I think with the new training feature it would give players alot more insight to what being a football manager us all about. Deciding on how long to warm up, how long to spend working on your defence/ attacking, then deciding what to do in terns of small sided games, possession sessions, weight/ fitness training. Things that pro footballers do every day! The list goes on and is all realistic things we should be able to work out! The more work you put your players through the better they will be but you risk injury if too much, it is similar to what is already there just more detailed and something NEW!

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Take it away from steam...This is the worse fm i have tried to play...had more probs with game crashing than all the other versions put together...gone back to Fm11

I keep hearing people slagging off Steam and it absolutely mystifies me. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've not had one single problem or issue with Steam since it first came out. I actually quite like having my games all organised and automatically updated, and I like being able to see which of my online contacts play the same games I play. As far as I'm concerned, FM being on Steam is definitely in the "Pros" column rather than the "Cons" one. But like I said, maybe I've just been lucky with it :p

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I'd like to see:

1) Agent interaction - really bugs me that you can't challenge an agent who isn't interested in negotiating on behalf of his client (doesn't money always talk for these guys?), or better still, have a private chat with a player to tell him his agent is causing a problem with inflated wage demands etc. Also would be great to be able to talk directly to an agent of a transfer target (I know this is tapping up but what the hell, could be fun and it does happen all the time in real life) so you can try to see if there's any interest going forward there.

2) Job interview interaction - how about a stage before the approach from a board for a new job (not at the start of a new game, but once the game has started) where there could be two-way interaction between manager and board to ask some Qs about expectations, transfer kitty, style of play expected etc etc. Could use the Board Interaction format for manager to Board Qs, and player private chat format for Board to manager. I often find when I get an approach it would be useful to have more info before making a decision.

3) Post match Referee report/ratings - I'd like to be able to post a quick match report on the ref or at least give him a rating on his performance. How many times do we get frustrated when the match summary page suggests "Ref x didn't have the best game of his career", or "ref x decisions seemed to be biased towards the hosts/visitors"? At least we could refer back to these when he next gets a game. I'm a bit fed up getting caned by the board if I suggest the match officials had a stinker!

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I am not sure if anyone mention this or is already in the game but I would like to see team getting relegated due to financials problems. And maybe people could add Apertura and Clausura using the editor.

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I'd like to see:

1) Agent interaction - really bugs me that you can't challenge an agent who isn't interested in negotiating on behalf of his client (doesn't money always talk for these guys?), or better still, have a private chat with a player to tell him his agent is causing a problem with inflated wage demands etc. Also would be great to be able to talk directly to an agent of a transfer target (I know this is tapping up but what the hell, could be fun and it does happen all the time in real life) so you can try to see if there's any interest going forward there.

2) Job interview interaction - how about a stage before the approach from a board for a new job (not at the start of a new game, but once the game has started) where there could be two-way interaction between manager and board to ask some Qs about expectations, transfer kitty, style of play expected etc etc. Could use the Board Interaction format for manager to Board Qs, and player private chat format for Board to manager. I often find when I get an approach it would be useful to have more info before making a decision.

3) Post match Referee report/ratings - I'd like to be able to post a quick match report on the ref or at least give him a rating on his performance. How many times do we get frustrated when the match summary page suggests "Ref x didn't have the best game of his career", or "ref x decisions seemed to be biased towards the hosts/visitors"? At least we could refer back to these when he next gets a game. I'm a bit fed up getting caned by the board if I suggest the match officials had a stinker!

I would absolutely love to see more interaction options with Agents. I mentioned it in another thread but forgot to add it here, but it would be great to get the chance to talk to a player and advise them to get a new agent with a couple of different justifications. Then it would depend on the reputation of player, manager, and agent, and there could be an additional stat for a player's confidence in his agent, just like the chairman's confidence in a manager. I think agents in a the game are a very good idea and there's a lot of things that could be done to make them better and more interactive.

Having job applications as more of a two-way process would be good, too. I'm sure I recall seeing in a new features list for FM2012 that boards would be including expectations and possible facility improvements in contract negotiations but I must have been imagining it because not seen any sign of this feature since. But it would definitely be a welcome addition, with the player able to demand (for instance) a stadium expansion, and the board replying that they'll agree to that on the condition that you reach a certain stage/position in a competition. Or, from the other point of view, the board's offer of a contract extension being entirely conditional on the manager fulfilling a particular target.

While I like the idea of being able to criticise/rate refs, I'm not sure how realistic it is, given that real life managers almost invariably get in trouble with the FA if they so much as hint that the ref made a mistake!

I am not sure if anyone mention this or is already in the game but I would like to see team getting relegated due to financials problems. And maybe people could add Apertura and Clausura using the editor.

Just like happened to Fiorentina back in 2002. Currently, financial administration and points deductions in FM just don't carry the same panic and terror that they do in real life and they do need a bit more about them to make them truer to life. Tried starting a game with Rangers with the 10 points deduction and in administration and £76m in debt to give myself a challenge - spent a week or two not being able to do much, then the club got bought by an East European businessman who cleared the debts, pumped £35m funds into the club and gave me a £10m transfer kitty; after that it was business as usual and we ended up winning the league and one of the two cups without too much trouble :/

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Some very good ideas on here.

The first thing that stuck out to me was someone mentioning pace and acceleration being overpowered. I cannot agree more. How many times is Gabby Agbonlahor gonna score 20+ goals a season :D

Also international manage seems like almost a side note in this game. I can't get immersed in it one bit.

Oh and the AI. But you already know that ;)

And then the ME.

I give SI the benefit of the doubt though. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to replicate human behavior both during and in between matches.

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1. AI management for one surely and 2. Training session guys, this is a big part and 3. growth of palyers' attributes wherein generally any attributes should not increase vastly during the playing years of a player, e.g. Technique from 7 to 15, etc. even through training/individual training and finally 4. the match engine which has very good performance after 12.2 could further build on together with tactical side improvements

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More or better attacking and defensive instructions for players in said formation, at the moment you have little say in the role or their duty as a player in a formation.

Transfers need attention as stated above by a lot of people.

When searching for players, being able to search for roles, eg: Target man, poacher instead of just striker.

Player interaction needs more or better options, especially when moral has greater influence.

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When you move from one club to another part of the contract should be about which, if any, of your staff you want to come with you. You tell you want staff x, y and z and along they come if they wish. Maybe more interaction with those staff ie 'im going to club 'x' and would like you to come?

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When you move from one club to another part of the contract should be about which, if any, of your staff you want to come with you. You tell you want staff x, y and z and along they come if they wish. Maybe more interaction with those staff ie 'im going to club 'x' and would like you to come?

Love that idea! It's nice having some of the staff that like you leave your former club, but kinda pointless if you've moved to a club that they don't want to join because of its reputation or league reputation, or if you've moved on to a much bigger club where you won't need the staff from your former club because you can hire better; they just end up unemployed and your former club loses all its best staff.

Related to that, find it slightly daft when a manager retires and all their coaches and their assistant quit the club like the manager's resigned, especially when it's a club they love (for instance, most of the Man Utd staff quitting the club when Fergie retires; though it makes sense for his brother, Martin, to leave).

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I made a point years ago about having your entourage that comes with you. If you're signing for a club it should be the option, "Bring in my own staff" and then your crew that you had will come with you and the other coaches, physios and scouts will be gone.

It could be

Merge Staff

Bring in Own Staff

Dismiss all background Staff

Keep all background staff (but don't bring my own)

It would be a nice way of being familiar with your coaches and assistant manger, and perhaps this could then help in speeding up getting the players up to speed on tactics and gel together etc in the new formations.

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1. Match engine ( i understand that SI are working on this so i'm hopeful that at least speed will not be so important)

2. AI squad building- because this makes the game easy and unchallenging

3. No more bugs ( at least big ones)

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Really pushing it there on #3 lol.

There will always be bugs. It's part of every software, always has been always will be :)

i'm not talking about small bugs that appear here and there i'm talking about big ones like the greek league issue, the scouting reports issue, the signing of staff after 12.1 issue etc ;)

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In terms of multiplayer potential, I think the possibility of saving your current club side out of your game,

and then playing in one-off friendlies or tournaments online would be fantastic.

You would have something for the casual player, but you could also have great long range challenges, where you play offline for a year (or five) ingame and then

play against your mates teams for an unofficial "champions cup".

Might be a way of livening up the international side of things come to think of it. It strikes me Steam is an ideal platform to blend the offline game with online.

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I made a point years ago about having your entourage that comes with you. If you're signing for a club it should be the option, "Bring in my own staff" and then your crew that you had will come with you and the other coaches, physios and scouts will be gone.

It could be

Merge Staff

Bring in Own Staff

Dismiss all background Staff

Keep all background staff (but don't bring my own)

It would be a nice way of being familiar with your coaches and assistant manger, and perhaps this could then help in speeding up getting the players up to speed on tactics and gel together etc in the new formations.

I would like to see long term plans added to board expectations (i.e QPR's 5 year plan), so you get season expectations and long terms goals (such as Crawley Town).

Great thread and some great ideas!!!

I like both of these ideas a lot :thup:

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Any chance of some official feedback on any of the ideas that have been raised, as to whether they're feasible or even if they're things that are already being discussed/planned by the devs? :D

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Youngsters need to progress faster. I bought a regen for my team (man utd and 12m) with a 4 and a half PA from almost all my scouts played him 10 times when he was 16, 12 times when he was 17, loaned him too burnley when he was 18, played 27 matches there and in all that time progressed 1 star and his PA has gone down to 3 stars!!! This has happened numerous times and it bugs me!

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Youngsters need to progress faster. I bought a regen for my team (man utd and 12m) with a 4 and a half PA from almost all my scouts played him 10 times when he was 16, 12 times when he was 17, loaned him too burnley when he was 18, played 27 matches there and in all that time progressed 1 star and his PA has gone down to 3 stars!!! This has happened numerous times and it bugs me!

This not entirely wrong though,especially if you haven't tutored them it makes some sense. Not a lot mind you,I agree with you,just not fully.

If anything,they should allow coaches to be able to tutor youngsters as well. That would actually make sense as well.

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This not entirely wrong though,especially if you haven't tutored them it makes some sense. Not a lot mind you,I agree with you,just not fully.

If anything,they should allow coaches to be able to tutor youngsters as well. That would actually make sense as well.

I'd also quite like to see coaches be able to spend extra time with promising youngsters.

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Be nice to get your coaches to train players with ppms, instead of just waiting for a suggestion from your backroom staff. Unless you can and I have missed it, then ignore this suggestion.

It's one of the sub-menus when you right-click on a player. Something like "Preferred Move Training" then you select a coach from the list and they tell you which PPM they think the player should learn, and why.

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FM 13 > No silly new additions. Just get right what is already there. Sort Match engine, morale, corners, injuries, scout reports blah blah. Test test test so it can be as bug free as possible because all this advising people to use workarounds for half the issues 4-5 months after the game was released is pretty poor. I mean half the things people complain about have been an issue for years and surely that's not good enough.

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I think this years release was 1 of best so far as in bug wise, 12.2 seem to have caused more problems then anything, as for the M.E/corners well we know there a new M.E In progress so fingers crossed, as for injuries im not sure if you mean the accurence or types or both or something else :) if its the accurence the actual percent of injuries in fm is very close to the real life % i remember Paulc posting the statistics for fm and real life a while back, i think the problem is in fm you seem to get loads all at same time

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2 of my ideas:

1. Youth/ Reserve Player Recommendations/Feedback

I think that this would be a good addition for the backroom advice screen. If a youth player is playing well for the youth team you might receive a message from the coach you have in charge of the youth team saying.

'(player) is looking great for the youth team, maybe we should put him in the reserves for a month to see if he can perform well at that level?'

Then you would have a number of options.

1) "Keep him in the youth team for a while longer, if he continues to perform well come back to me and notify me."

2) "I want to keep him in the youth team, I don't feel he's strong enough to break into the reserve team squad"

3) "Move him to the reserve team for one month, then report back to me and tell me how he gets on. If he does well, keep him in the reserve squad, if not, send him back to the Youth team".

This could also happen with young players in the reserves. If they impress in the reserves a number of times you might get a message from the reserve team manager,

'(player) looks like he could make the step up from reserves to first team football.'

Then like the previous example you would have a number of options.

1) "I'll give him a run out in the Carling cup, its not considered important to the board and so we can use him then"

2) "He can join up with the first team squad, and if he impresses in training with the first team I might use him as a sub in one of our upcoming matches"

3) "The first team squad has enough depth as it is and so won't get playing, I'll send him out on loan"

4) "I don't feel he's ready, keep him in the reserves for 1 more month, report back to me and tell me if he continues to play well"

Those are some of the responses I came up with very quickly so they're probably not the best but you can see there's a number of options you could have as a response and I feel that this addition would work well in new Football Manager games.

2. Starting off managing U18 (club)

I think this would be a great addition to FM.

This does happen in the real world and a prime example would be Brendan Rodgers.

He started off as a player but was forced to retire while at Reading when he was 20. He was then appointed as their youth team manager in 1995. Rodgers moved to Chelsea in September 2004 to become youth team manager after being approached by José Mourinho, and was appointed manager of the reserve team in July 2006.

On 24th November 2008, Rodgers was appointed as manager of Watford in the Championship, his first top-level managerial position.

Rodgers chose to leave Watford and agreed to become manager of Reading, and was appointed on 5 June 2009.

Rodgers was appointed manager of Championship team Swansea City on 16 July 2010. This season he won promotion with them to the Premiership by winning the Play-Offs.

I would love for something like this to be introduced in FM. You can start off as a youth team manager first (which would obviously be easier to get appointed to if you didn't have a great reputation as a manager), then if you do well with the U18's you could be asked by the current club manager if you would like to become the new Reserve coach, then if you do well with the Reserve coach you could maybe be asked to become the caretaker manager (of a lower league team, doubt it would happen at a Premiership level club) if the manager of the club you're at gets sacked , or you could apply to managerial positions at lower league clubs.

----

(moved from one of my replies)

This could possibly lead the way to having you, the U18, picking a coaching team for the youth team (or maybe the first team manager would decide this for you) and you would have a U18 physio and possibly one scout to scout the next team, or maybe you could be in charge for recommending youth players to the first team coach to sign.

Obviously this would open the way for more interaction between the U18, Reserve and First Team managers:

1. U18 manager could give feedback to the Reserve manager (and maybe First Team manager) on how well the current U18 side is doing.

2. The Reserve manager could ask the U18 manager to rest Player A, because he is interested in trying him out in the Reserve team to see if he's ready.

3. The First Team manager could ask the U18 manager or the Reserve manager to rest Player B, because he wants to play him in an upcoming game to see how well he can perform at the top level and to see if his ready to join the first team.

4. The First Team manager could ask the Reserve team manager to give Player C, some playing time because he is just getting back from an injury and the First Team manager wants him to get back to full match fitness before playing him for the first team again.

Another useful thing is that really good youth team players will probably add you to their 'Favoured Personnel' and as a result would be easier to sign them if you move to becoming the first team manager at a different team.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/266622-Starting-off-managing-U18-(club)

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Like in real football when the players stand in tunnel and come out together with the home teams song..

All players shake hands like in real time..

I need that extra feeling in the stadium. I think the songs whould be awesome!! I need some sound in the game.. you dont get that feeling like you are on the stadium now!

The idea with optional to ask for new kits its perfect! In real time this happens to :)

What about better sponsore option? Nike, adidas - new head sponsore "on kits to"

Nike likes one of your players and want to make him a speciel shoe.. ?

More focus on training shoots and freekicks.. Only shot from long dis, and shot hard.. What about Ronaldos freekick? nobody can train that?..

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