FM2012 difficulty.

[Erimus1876]

Regarding attributes showing - you could turn on the graphical representation.....

Its still too much info given at a glance in my opinion. The other alternative, which is becoming quite popular now if downloads are anything to go by, is playing with an attribute hiding skin. Its a bit extreme for most, but it really does add another dimension of challenge to the game once you get used to it. I've been playing attribute-blind since FM11 (which made the easy game thing even more disheartening, although I never mentioned that little fact in my earlier rants!).

I think the problem is we have one extreme or the other; either you play with attributes showing, wether numerical or as coloured bars, or without them showing at all. Some optional middle-ground would satisfy those who like to play with some meaningful fog of war without going completely blind to them. Coloured bars instead of numerical values isn't it as its still too easy to see almost instantly which players are excellent, good, average, or poor, and in which categories. Playing without any attributes showing (or adding a better fog of war) means you have to use all the other tools at your disposal (scouts, coach reports, trials etc), and even go scout the players yourself by watching them play before deciding wether they're worth a bid etc. So it adds more depth and longevity to the whole [human] team buidling aspect of the game.

[BiggusD]

Its still too much info given at a glance in my opinion. The other alternative, which is becoming quite popular now if downloads are anything to go by, is playing with an attribute hiding skin. Its a bit extreme for most, but it really does add another dimension of challenge to the game once you get used to it. I've been playing attribute-blind since FM11 (which made the easy game thing even more disheartening, although I never mentioned that little fact in my earlier rants!).

I think the problem is we have one extreme or the other; either you play with attributes showing, wether numerical or as coloured bars, or without them showing at all. Some optional middle-ground would satisfy those who like to play with some meaningful fog of war without going completely blind to them. Coloured bars instead of numerical values isn't it as its still too easy to see almost instantly which players are excellent, good, average, or poor, and in which categories. Playing without any attributes showing (or adding a better fog of war) means you have to use all the other tools at your disposal (scouts, coach reports, trials etc), and even go scout the players yourself by watching them play before deciding wether they're worth a bid etc. So it adds more depth to the whole team buidling aspect of the game.

What about having the Report card saying "Athletic, technically limited defensive midfielder" and list statistics, and let it take half a season at the club before all the info is given?

[Erimus1876]

What about having the Report card saying "Athletic, technically limited defensive midfielder" and list statistics, and let it take half a season at the club before all the info is given?

Yes, that was one of the fog of war middle-ground ideas I've read about and really liked. Did you post this in an earlier thread?

If I can find it I'll dig up the old debate about fog of war as there were some excellent ideas mentioned in it.

Edit: Here's the most recent discussion on hiding attributes (and how to do it in FM12 in post #18), but there was a really good thread on FM11 about it that I can't find unfortunately.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/286772-Can-you-actually-turn-off-the-attribute-panel

[Äktsjon Männ]

What about having the Report card saying "Athletic, technically limited defensive midfielder" and list statistics, and let it take half a season at the club before all the info is given?

The info can be revealed gradually and could also be done through scouting. A scout watching a player in one match = one or two attributes revealed, maybe not even that - depending on scouts ability of course. Would take half a season to reveal everything and would make the scouting process more risky, but at the same time a more rewarding exercise as you'd have to pick your targets on limited information.

[Erimus1876]

The info can be revealed gradually and could also be done through scouting. A scout watching a player in one match = one or two attributes revealed' date=' maybe not even that - depending on scouts ability of course. Would take half a season to reveal everything and would make the scouting process more risky, but at the same time a more rewarding exercise as you'd have to pick your targets on limited information.[/quote']

And you always have the short-cut option to scout him yourself which is the bit I like the most about not having all attributes just a click away. I often get a recommendation from an agent or a scout, and I'll go watch him in 3D for a couple of games, if I like what I see I try and get them in on trial or loan, or keep tabs on him before making a bid. I can't remember the last time I used the search option - its a redundant feature for me. When you build a team this way its a much more rewarding experience imho. But it does take a lot more time so I understand its not for everyone.

[Äktsjon Männ]

And you always have the short-cut option to scout him yourself which is the bit I like the most about not having all attributes just a click away. I often get a recommendation from an agent or a scout, and I'll go watch him in 3D for a couple of games, if I like what I see I try and get them in on trial or loan, or keep tabs on him before making a bid. I can't remember the last time I used the search option - its a redundant feature for me. When you build a team this way its a much more rewarding experience imho. But it does take a lot more time so I understand its not for everyone.

Yeah, having attribute masking off would then be the equivalent of 'easy' difficulty. It's meant to be like that anyway, but if any random bum you can hire for a scout can reveal every bit of information about any player in the clubs scouting range within two or three days of asking then it's not really effective at all.

[PinkYoshi]

game is quite difficult to newcomers.

once i got somer trainig setups off this site, i am winning every game.

seems oto me AI isnt adapting well to strats or good training methods

[Zilkin]

It's way too easy to be enjoyable for me.

[Miek]

It's way too easy to be enjoyable for me.

², I'm waiting on patch.

[Law_Man]

Re the AI not being good enough in comparison to (some) humans tactically and at squad building, while this may be true, I was thinking to myelf reading those comments: if one of the Premier League clubs was bought by a crazy software billionaire, and he decided to let a computer programme make all the key decisions at the football club, would anyone really expect it to be as good as a real life manager? Just playing devil's advocate and offering another view.

[grep]

I am reading them, but I don't work on the transfers or the newgens so its not really for me to make comment here.

But I do believe AI team selection needs reworking for a future release. We need to get the balance right between selecting roles to fit the players and players to fit the roles

Hmmm....it seems that within SI everyone does his job without interacting with colleagues.

I would encourage you to be more communicative versus each other, this way it will be smoother both to program and to address issues.

My 2 humble cents

[bigdunk]

No programmer on a project the scale of FM will have detailed knowledge of every line of code in the entire thing - it doesn't mean they don't communicate with each other.

[scott MUFC]

i do not understand how, it is me on top of the league with 1 game in hand, then spurs (same results bar thier 1 loss) then chelsea a staggering 14 points before febuary

that is not tight enough

[Yastru]

Its still too much info given at a glance in my opinion. The other alternative, which is becoming quite popular now if downloads are anything to go by, is playing with an attribute hiding skin. Its a bit extreme for most, but it really does add another dimension of challenge to the game once you get used to it. I've been playing attribute-blind since FM11 (which made the easy game thing even more disheartening, although I never mentioned that little fact in my earlier rants!).

I think the problem is we have one extreme or the other; either you play with attributes showing, wether numerical or as coloured bars, or without them showing at all. Some optional middle-ground would satisfy those who like to play with some meaningful fog of war without going completely blind to them. Coloured bars instead of numerical values isn't it as its still too easy to see almost instantly which players are excellent, good, average, or poor, and in which categories. Playing without any attributes showing (or adding a better fog of war) means you have to use all the other tools at your disposal (scouts, coach reports, trials etc), and even go scout the players yourself by watching them play before deciding wether they're worth a bid etc. So it adds more depth and longevity to the whole [human] team buidling aspect of the game.

Can you please PM me some download link of that skin ? I would like to try it ?

And im all for scouting to make the game more realistic.

[Erimus1876]

Can you please PM me some download link of that skin ? I would like to try it ?

And im all for scouting to make the game more realistic.

The links are in this thread...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/286772-Can-you-actually-turn-off-the-attribute-panel?p=7342961&viewfull=1#post7342961

[PaulC]

My 2 humble cents

Yeah, thanks.

[PinkYoshi]

seems there are a lot of tactics and training regimes that exploit the game AI.

SIgames simply needs to go over the most popular ones and adjust the game ai to counter them

it will give the hardcore gamers some time to find new exploitative tactics and give them a challenge

it is a quick fix, but it is better than nothing

[wwfan]

seems there are a lot of tactics and training regimes that exploit the game AI.

Where did you get that from? There are no major exploits. Sure, there are some that enable users to over-achieve, but generally not by a huge margin. The core problems are:

a) Set-piece issue

b) Match Prep issue

c) Morale issue

d) AI squad building in long-term games

None of those are tactics or training exploits, but bugs or AI issues.

[Mike7077]

What are the match prep and morale issues?

[PinkYoshi]

you mean ahaving pasionate prep talk each time gives u 50% advantrage?

[Mike7077]

Match prep is nothing to do with talks. It's at the bottom left of the tactics screen.

[Casual]

New update, are we there yet?

[Äktsjon Männ]

What are the match prep and morale issues?

Match prep issue is that the AI isn't properly doing it. They only prepare one tactic so whenever they make a formation change (for example) they are completely unfamiliar with their tactics.

Morale 'issue' is the fact that it's so simple to get everybody on superb and keep it that way.

[Mike7077]

Match prep issue is that the AI isn't properly doing it. They only prepare one tactic so whenever they make a formation change (for example) they are completely unfamiliar with their tactics.

Morale 'issue' is the fact that it's so simple to get everybody on superb and keep it that way.

I, for one, wouldn't want any of that to change! I suppose it should, though.

Thank you for the answer.

[milnerpoint]

I didnt think the match pre thing was really an issue since the AI does things in a slightly different way, the test that was done showed no real difference in the AI's performance when it had 0% for 3 formations or 100% for all of them.

[Mitja]

I didnt think the match pre thing was really an issue since the AI does things in a slightly different way, the test that was done showed no real difference in the AI's performance when it had 0% for 3 formations or 100% for all of them.

that's a huge disapointment if it's true. much bigger than the fact it only traines one tactic.

[milnerpoint]

I dont see why, the AI will make use of the tools slightly differently to us, it also builds tactics in a slightly different way to us.

I personally use 1 tactic, the ONLY reason i set up more than 1 is to stop the constant messages from my assistant. If i want to play a different way for a game i change my starting tactic, every time. I dont really see the issue with the AI using 1 main tactic and adjusting that as it see's fit as i do the exact same thing.

[Mitja]

there should be big difference in results when playing with 100% gelled tactics and 0%, don't you think? are you sure AI's using only one tactic?

[milnerpoint]

It depends on the game, the opposition and various other things but yes i would expect a bit of a difference at times, but if there was a huge difference you would struggle to get anywhere when you started a new game as almost every team would have a huge advantage over you.

I personally have no idea what exactly the AI uses or does, but based on the screen shots earlier in the thread my theory is that the AI uses 1 main tactic and adjusts this one for each game. That was the only reason i could come up with that would explain why most of the way through a season an AI team has not reached 100% familiarity with their main formation and why they dont appear to be training a 2nd or 3rd, but obviously this could be completely wrong altogether.

Like i say that is how i play, i dont switch to a 2nd or 3rd formation at any point, i only set them up to stop my assistant constantly telling me i should, i have not switched to either of them, or done anything more than set up a formation for them both, i use my 1st set up, and i adjust only that set up for any game and situation, it certainly has not disadvantaged me as far as i can tell.

[andu1]

They AI managers have 4 sets of tactics/ prefferered/secondary/attacking and defending.

The issue is that 90% of the time they stick to the preffered one and rarely use the other 3( assuming they are different).

Let's say an AI manager has 4-4-2 as main formation and 4-3-1-2 as secondary .It's hired for a team that doesn't have any good wingers( like AC Milan ) but does have some very good CM/AM players.

Will the AI manager abandon his 4-4-2 to play a more indicated 4-3-1-2 as the situation requires it? No, he will most certain stick to 4-4-2 and either buy some second rate wingers or use the cm or am in winger position.

I think that SI should really review why AI managers don't fully utilize the tactics at their disposal.

[stf1979]

When It will be out the next patch / update?

[wwfan]

I didnt think the match pre thing was really an issue since the AI does things in a slightly different way, the test that was done showed no real difference in the AI's performance when it had 0% for 3 formations or 100% for all of them.

The test revealed that match prep wasn't the 'smoking gun', not that it had no significance at all.

[PaulC]

Right, now that 12.1 is out I just want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, thanks for all who contributed constructive feedback. We've had a good crack at rebalancing things in a way that we hope won't affect the majority but will address the concerns of some of you who posted in here.

Some suggestions:

- If you want a tough game, the best way to get it is to start as Sunday League player and manage a big club eg in a top division.

- Those of you who did this originally, please bear in mind that your reputation may have grown ( I slowed down match by match manager world rep changes for 12.1 btw ) so you might not see the effects.

- Team talks are the obvious area where this change will manifest itself. Essentially players are less likely to listen to someone they have never heard of, especially millionaire players

- Morale has been rebalanced; I dont think you will find it as easy to top up and maintain very high morale. At the same time I hope that those of you in a rut of low morale will find it easier to break out of it.

- The AI are slightly better with their own attacking corners and also they are less likely to waste possession at higher levels.

I hope you all enjoy 12.1.

Cheers,

Paul

[hagakure]

Thx Paul and everyone at SI for the new patch. I hope it makes the game more challenging.

[Mitja]

and also they are less likely to waste possession at higher levels.

what does it meen?

[Ronaldo123]

Thanks Paul and the other Sigames staff.

[markyosullivan]

12.1 will make the game more challenging? I found it challenging before the update..

[wally13]

12.1 will make the game more challenging? I found it challenging before the update..

Try a big team with sunday league rep now pal

[vilks]

Thanks very much, although I didn't really see a problem with the AI not scoring enough corners, 90% of the time that's where all their goals come from!

[Neo14]

Right, now that 12.1 is out I just want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, thanks for all who contributed constructive feedback. We've had a good crack at rebalancing things in a way that we hope won't affect the majority but will address the concerns of some of you who posted in here.

Some suggestions:

- If you want a tough game, the best way to get it is to start as Sunday League player and manage a big club eg in a top division.

- Those of you who did this originally, please bear in mind that your reputation may have grown ( I slowed down match by match manager world rep changes for 12.1 btw ) so you might not see the effects.

- Team talks are the obvious area where this change will manifest itself. Essentially players are less likely to listen to someone they have never heard of, especially millionaire players

- Morale has been rebalanced; I dont think you will find it as easy to top up and maintain very high morale. At the same time I hope that those of you in a rut of low morale will find it easier to break out of it.

- The AI are slightly better with their own attacking corners and also they are less likely to waste possession at higher levels.

I hope you all enjoy 12.1.

Cheers,

Paul

Can we play with an older save game or should we must start a new game ?

[wally13]

Can we play with an older save game or should we must start a new game ?

Can use a old save but always better to start a new

[scott MUFC]

i find starting at the bottom is easier.

i tried east stirlingshire as they are always terrible in Scottish division 3

so far i am top of DIV 3 by 8 points with no loss. got to the League chalange cup final beating a few DIV1 teams including a 3-0 win against hamilton

only loss so far was scottish league cup 4-2 against rangers having beaten varying teams of DIV3/2/1 and kilmarnock O.O

it seems to me very easy to find a whole bunch of free transfers which are 5 star rated, i even got an SPL potential striker.

yes you start with ZERO POUNDS.

and even with a huge sqaud, i'm still making profit

[phnompenhandy]

Can use a old save but always better to start a new

Not really. If the corners and morale issues were what did it for you, just carry on. The only reason to restart according to Paul is if you want the challenge of being a managerial nobody and being totally dissed by your players.

[wally13]

Not really. If the corners and morale issues were what did it for you, just carry on. The only reason to restart according to Paul is if you want the challenge of being a managerial nobody and being totally dissed by your players.

It is if you want full use of all the fixes, its always been like that

[milnerpoint]

Not really, the fixes work with saved games, except those specifically mentioned, you do not need to start a new game at all to be effected by the changes.

[ReggaeBwoy]

So the update is automatically fixed into saved games? Don't really want to get rid of mines.

[milnerpoint]

yes the updates will work fine on your save, the only one that probably wont work that well is the memory saving one as it prob needs to set the game up slightly different and most likely the scheduling ones as again they will prob be set up at the start, although these might kick in when a new season starts, not quite sure on that point.

[ReggaeBwoy]

Cheers mate

[milnerpoint]

FYI i have never started a new game with a new patch, not in the past 5 years at least, i play my long term save from release day without any issues and i get all the fixes

[ReggaeBwoy]

BTW, with the bug of being a big club and having the option to choose a parent club does anyone know if computer based teams do this as this will be really off-putting, or is it just an option that the AI does not do?