Will the final retail version be this easy?

[andu1]

I didn't play FM 2012 demo too much so i can't comment on this one.

But in FM 2011 I noticed something that could be connected to the issue that the game is becoming easier while playing in a long term game.

The quality of the new generated coaches/managers attributes are poorly generated, resulting in very good attributes for coaching skills and poor for mental skills. Also, the preffered formations they use are poorly distributed resulting in too many obsolete formations that can be countered easily by a human manager( 3-5-2,3-4-3, 5-3-2,). We never see a regen coach like Guardiola or Mourinho mental attributes wise.

And those who are indeed good , use the formations i mentioned. This can be easily checked by SI guys. Just advance further 30 years and check how many regen coaches have 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 or 4-2-3-1 with wingers(i believe it's called 4-2-3-1_dk ingame) as their main tactic.

We attracted SI's attention to correct this issue in this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/228246-10-years-in-and-4-4-2-rules-the-world

SI improved this a little bit, but not enough in my opinion.

I really believe this should be improved further and i hope it will be for FM 2012.

[hater]

I actually find this "too easy" with FM altogether (each year).

As someone who likes to play a mid table/top half team's, and signing players that are good but not quite good enough for the elite/top teams, I still find that with these players im easily able to equal or surpass the elite teams.

I understand that it can happen every now and then, but not quite to the same level it happens in FM (series).

I suppose for obvious reason the gap between the top and the average is not as big (easier to overcome) compared to irl, but i actually like to plod along, every now and then making a guest apperance in europe.

[davehanson]

Perhaps I should add a bit more to the OP?

Playing as Manchester United, I have made just one loan signing, Thiago from Barcelona. So it isn't as if I have just bought loads of world class players. I have frequently used the younger players (Fabio, Cleverley, Wellbeck and Macheda) and the fringe players. My midfield line up against Chelsea was Park - Cleverley - Thiago - Valencia. I beat them 4-1.

I do not 'tweek' my tactics, I have just made a flat 4-4-2 and all I do is alter the player roles depending on my team selection. I haven't even touched the set-piece instructions.

I have a 100% record in the league still, have suffered one loss in the CL away to Ajax.

My point at the start was that I seem to get this kind of success in the demo version every year (ie FM07, FM08, FM09 etc etc), then struggle in the full game. I love the way people jump on your back telling you to play as someone else. I stated at the start I realise it is easier to play as Man Utd than most other teams - but it should all be taken in perspective. Would I expect Man Utd with that line up to beat Chelsea 4-1? No, probably not. I mean it could happen, but it would be very unlikley. Now, if that was a one off result, I could accept it, but I have also beaten Villa 4-0, Spurs 4-1, Liverpool 2-0 without even thinking about it.

[grep]

This is a reaction of a brilliant men ( Paul C. ) who is trying to help us taking care about the very issue of this thread, thanks a lot.

Please feed him and flood him with evidence of the issue, just to ease his job so he can master an ad hoc patch that will help us all.

So guys, let's flood him just with evidence and we will certainly have a playable FM12 very soon.

Paul, we trust you, let's kill the beast for us, we will always be grateful to the man who is leading the battle for us, that's for sure.

-------->>>>>>>>>>> paul.collyer@sigames.com <<<<<<<<<<<<----------

[grep]

I never understood why it is expected that any topic must stick rigidly to the title and never allowed to divert even slightly. Maybe you can go too far, but the fact that the topic of this thread has promoted the question of difficulty keeps it a valid topic of conversation.

Again I fully agree.

Let me guess, maybe Carmi88 is struggling in FM12 so he is trying to reduce the huge truth river of this thread, opening a water diverting gate.

[Graham206]

Over the past few days I've noticed a few people who've made a lot of posts about how deeply dissatisfied they are with the demo.

And I've noticed a common theme with quite a few of them: they don't play the actual matches, they go on holiday or just hit 'continue' over and over.

Last year I found I was playing long sessions of FM11 and getting really annoyed: I was playing a game and not enjoying it at all - it was becoming hard work - and I would turn off the computer in an absolute rage. I'd get really cross, do stupid things and next day go back through the autosaves to try to resume before I lost my temper.

Eventually I wrote myself a note on 'Reminders' which popped up every week: "If you're playing matches at high speed quit the game". Because that was what was spoiling my experience. I was so concerned with getting to my long term aims I was forgetting to enjoy the game: it was like arranging to go on holiday to Rome to look at the Sistine Chapel and putting on a blindfold so that I didn't see anything on the way. If the destination is the only thing that matters it won't be a very enjoyable holiday.

Obviously it's your game to play anyway you want: if you want to holiday every match day you can, but in my experience playing the matches is the most important part of the game and if you rush past that it's like going to an expensive restaurant and wolfing down the food so fast you can't taste it because you're so keen to eat the dessert.

Play the game however you want. I find, though, that rushing it (and I do know it's tempting, as I said above, I've done it) means it's less fun. There have been several very good posts in this thread suggesting ways to play the game more enjoyably. If you're not having fun why not think about playing the game in a different way? it's a game: it's supposed to be fun.

[Bradley21]

I'm not sure why people here are attributing the games low level of difficulty to managers not imposing self made rules on themselves, playing too quick, holidaying it, downloading tactics....etc. None of these have anything to do with the level of difficulty of the boxed product.

We should not have to impose rules on ourselves in order to have a challenge, nor should we have to drag the experience out as Graham206 says above. The game should be hard enough that you can't just waltz in as any team and turn on the style with little effort.

I never download other peoples tactics, its a cop-out for people who have little to no ability at the game, i don't edit databases to make it more difficult because i don't want to/its not realistic, i never holiday, i don't re-load, i don't take over other clubs, i don't speed play through the game.....etc..etc...I just play the game as intended. It just so happens i'm good at it, this means i enjoy it less because there are no challenges anymore.

I do not see why i should be forced to plod through a game that isn't challenging enough just because other people find it difficult. Multiple difficulty levels are commonplace in games, in fact its very strange if they don't have them. People of all abilities play these games, not just 12 year old kids with a hard-on for Messi, some of us need a greater challenge. There is no reason why a "hardcore mode" or whatever cannot be put into the game other than either reluctance or laziness on SI's part.

Sure it may take some time to do, sure it may pose some problems, sure there may be bugs and sure some people won't use it but there are plenty who would. I'm not saying make it coding priority #1, but at least acknowledge that it would be something which would add to the game. I really cannot fathom why people are against this, if you don't want to play a harder mode then don't! It's that simple, ignore it and move on. You could even tuck it away in preferences or make it a download only feature, just so long as people who want it can find it.

/rant.

[jsar]

Neil - one thing have noticed at the bottem end of the leagues ie playing as Woking is that 90% of the people that i want to sign are happy to play for zero wages, this isnt something that i remember happening in previous LL games that i have played.

Should this be the case or would this be considered a "Bug"

[grep]

Neil - one thing have noticed at the bottem end of the leagues ie playing as Woking is that 90% of the people that i want to sign are happy to play for zero wages, this isnt something that i remember happening in previous LL games that i have played.

Should this be the case or would this be considered a "Bug"

If you could please provide Neil some kind of evidence, well, Neil will be more than happy to talk about that internally and he will be more than happy to produce a solid quick patch also for that.

Very very long days of work are waiting for SI patch team, so just upload few screenshots to him and also possibly few save games.

Thx

[fabioke]

I'm having the same luck with Royal Moescron-Péruwelz in Belgium, I'm very happy that I can carry on the demo with the add leagues feature. We where predicted 8th, and we are destroying the Belgian third division. And even in the cup we are still unbeaten. Maybe I'm improving as a manager....

[Neil Brock]

Neil - one thing have noticed at the bottem end of the leagues ie playing as Woking is that 90% of the people that i want to sign are happy to play for zero wages, this isnt something that i remember happening in previous LL games that i have played.

Should this be the case or would this be considered a "Bug"

Yeah please create a thread in the Transfers and Contracts Bugs forum (here - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/242-Transfer-and-Contracts) ideally with uploading relevant saves and we'll most definitely look into the issue. Thanks.

[Simon Tipple]

I agree, i'm doing so well with brighton at the minute, i'm hardly touching the tactics screen or anything like that, just hitting play and winning games I shouldn't really be winning. I played cardiff away and was losing 2-0 before half time, cut to the chase i won 4-3 away at cardiff with the amount of quality that cardiff have, me not touching the tactics or anything like that and i still come off winning, i've got a 100% record after 10 or so games and i'm playing good teams that really i shouldn't be winning.

You should find it a bit easier at the start of the season with Brighton as they'll have very high morale following their title win and move to the new stadium. If you can capitalise on this and keep morale high you could do very well but you may find it a bit of a struggle if things start to go against you. Oh and fwiw, Brighton won 3-1 away at Cardiff in the league this season.

[kevin3]

These are my all my results so far including the infamous 10-0 win over Liverpool.

Apart from that freak result, no other result really sticks out as being strange. In fact, compared to United's start in real life they have scored more goals. In 11 games they have won 8, scoring 34 goals while I have won 7 games and scoring 30 goals in the same number of matches. However, I have kept 7 clean sheets and conceded only 7 goals while real life Man Utd have conceded 11 goals and have kept 4 clean sheets. I think that compared to my other results you would have to say that the Liverpool win must be a bug because it is so out of the blue when compared to my other results.

Despite my results being similiar to real life (excluding the Liverpool game:D) I am finding the game easier than last year. I am using the exact same tactic that I was using last year, a attacking 4-4-2 and find it especially easy to keep clean sheets. One thing that I am noticing is that I hardly ever concede any clear cut chances. In 13 games so far, I have only conceded 3 clear cut chances!!! 2 of them where agaisnt Fulham and they ended up scoring 3 goals from it.

[Sharpy07]

Just done a little experiment with everything that is being said in the thread. Basically i selected Stoke to manage and went on holiday till Mid November when i had Arsenal at Home and then Chelsea away in the league (two of the hardest teams to play). So i came back off Holiday after not doing anything with the team at all. So came the first match against aresnal who were lying in 2nd and i was in 14th, and we had just lost the last two games before. I asked the Ass Man to pick the team and i used a standard 4-4-2 default with attacking mentality. I won easily 3-1! So i praised them at the end of the game.....so morale was now high if not perfect with the majority of the team. Then came Chelsea who were lying in 4th. Exactly the same before the game with team selection and formation etc, and again i win 2-1 and i had alot of periods i was on top in the game! So the only input had with managing stoke was to come off from holiday, pick a formation and team and then beat of the hardest clubs in the league. My point being that it seems so easy to do well without hardly any effort at all, as i said i holidayed from day one to that point!! This seems to concur with a number of other users in the thread.

[Rich2086]

Its such a contradiction of terms, we are all true Fm gamers, even if you play 1 season at a time, no one should be catered to more than the next, the game has to be accessible to everyone. I have played this game for as long as most and i hate this "we have bought this game for years you must do what we say" attitude.

[Mighty Brewers]

First game of the season.

Either I'm the greatest manager in the world and should actually be Burton's manager or this is to easy. 10 shots on target, 8 goals.

[Tommy_Styles]

I'm starting to think that players do no longer suffer from over confidence. There is not a single teamtalk that makes my players think that the match is going to be a walk in the park. As a result their motivation seems to match that of a suicide terrorist no matter who the opponent is.

[BiggusD]

I attribute lack of overperformance to my tactic, not the game. So I attribute overperformance to my tactic, hence I haven't noticed that the game has become too easy.

On a side note, I haven't made a bad tactic for the Demo yet, though. That is unusual.

[Roady99]

These are my all my results so far including the infamous 10-0 win over Liverpool.

Apart from that freak result, no other result really sticks out as being strange. In fact, compared to United's start in real life they have scored more goals. In 11 games they have won 8, scoring 34 goals while I have won 7 games and scoring 30 goals in the same number of matches. However, I have kept 7 clean sheets and conceded only 7 goals while real life Man Utd have conceded 11 goals and have kept 4 clean sheets. I think that compared to my other results you would have to say that the Liverpool win must be a bug because it is so out of the blue when compared to my other results.

Despite my results being similiar to real life (excluding the Liverpool game:D) I am finding the game easier than last year. I am using the exact same tactic that I was using last year, a attacking 4-4-2 and find it especially easy to keep clean sheets. One thing that I am noticing is that I hardly ever concede any clear cut chances. In 13 games so far, I have only conceded 3 clear cut chances!!! 2 of them where agaisnt Fulham and they ended up scoring 3 goals from it.

To be honest in my opinion, Your results (Apart from the liverpool one) Are ones id expect you to get, Maybe id even say you should have had better results (Sunderland, Man City, Fulham) Im yet to see anyone *Overacheive* With any team, Actually wait maybe the Swansea save someone had, But all in all i dont see it any easier than other versions of FM, All i see is a more simple layout and much better for the novice to understand things, Now if you was winning every match 10-0 thats over acheiving, But like you say, Its hardly any different from RL (Baring the Liverpool result) And being honest as a Liverpool fan that could well happen, Only have to have a bad day at the office and that could happen.

[WulfgarDK]

I think balancing FM to be an enjoyable experience for casual gamers and hardcore gamers that thinks that having any chance to win a game in FM should require hours of tinkering with tactics and settings.

The last couple of FM's have been, IMO, too hard for casual gamers. I didn't play them because I don't want to spend time on tinkering with tactics, I enjoy scouting players and see them progress.

So maybe making a hardcore setting for future FMs would be a good idea. I don't think that it should be impossible to win matches by just selecting a default tactic. I don't think that you need to use

touchline shouts to perfection to win games etc. They all add to the immersion aspect of FM, but they shouldn't be a requirement to actually enjoy the game.

[Carmi88]

Again I fully agree.

Let me guess, maybe Carmi88 is struggling in FM12 so he is trying to reduce the huge truth river of this thread, opening a water diverting gate.

Sitting 3rd with 5 points between me and first, lost 3 games overall so far, bad guess

[grep]

Sitting 3rd with 5 points between me and first, lost 3 games overall so far, bad guess

So are you basically concurring with the thread's title ?

If yes, you are welcome, if not, it's not your skill but the FM12 easiness issue.

[grep]

First game of the season.

Either I'm the greatest manager in the world and should actually be Burton's manager or this is to easy. 10 shots on target, 8 goals.

May I ask you please to send the file to paul.collyer@sigames.com ?

Thanks a lot and much appreciated.

This is a clear evidence that something is wrong with FM12.

Did you use any special tactics or any special instructions or so on ? Could you please briefly tell us if you just pretty much pressed the botton " Continue " or if you have fiddled with settings and players ?

Thanks a lot

[Roady99]

So are you basically concurring with the thread's title ?

If yes, you are welcome, if not, it's not your skill but the FM12 easiness issue.

Im sorry but who are you to say someone does not have skill on a game? And say its all down to a *Bug*, Im sorry but i completley disagree with this thread, I dont feel the game is any *Easier* than the previous FM11 and i struggled alot on FM11 in most saves, A few people who have extensive knowledge of FM tactics and so forth have said the game is *Easy* to them, Im sorry but that puts them very much in the minority, Ive played roughly 10-12 saves on the Demo all varying in *Difficulty* Yes some results are *Far fetched* But hardly to say impossible to any of them.

[grep]

Im sorry but who are you to say someone does not have skill on a game? And say its all down to a *Bug*, Im sorry but i completley disagree with this thread, I dont feel the game is any *Easier* than the previous FM11 and i struggled alot on FM11 in most saves, A few people who have extensive knowledge of FM tactics and so forth have said the game is *Easy* to them, Im sorry but that puts them very much in the minority, Ive played roughly 10-12 saves on the Demo all varying in *Difficulty* Yes some results are *Far fetched* But hardly to say impossible to any of them.

No problem, if your opinion is different from all the opinions in this thread then no problem.

Just look at screenshots and read all the posts and then you will realise maybe your opinion is different from the mass. It has been also under investigation by SI so take it easy guy.

[Roady99]

No problem, if your opinion is different from all the opinions in this thread then no problem.

Just look at screenshots and read all the posts and then you will realise maybe your opinion is different from the mass. It has been also under investigation by SI so take it easy guy.

My opinion is not different from *ALL* the opinions in this thread, Yes SI may investigate it, But they may also consider *Nothing* Wrong, Which i find the case to be, I have been playing FM for many a years going on 15 i think, But to sit there and tell someone they are basically no good at the game as its a *Bug* When your theory is not even confirmed is not exactly nice, And to be all and end all, Ive looked through all the posts and screenshots including my own, And i have said many a times to most if not all, Hardly any of them are actually *OVERACHEIVING*, You seem to be on a one man mission to find a *Bug* Which i honestly beleive not to even exist. This game has not got easier in any way, More of got easier to understand what youre doing. But heyho opinions differ, I just dont like people to tell others "Its not that youre any good, Its a bug" When no *bug* has even been confirmed.

[PaulC]

May I ask you please to send the file to paul.collyer@sigames.com ?

Thanks a lot and much appreciated.

This is a clear evidence that something is wrong with FM12.

Did you use any special tactics or any special instructions or so on ? Could you please briefly tell us if you just pretty much pressed the botton " Continue " or if you have fiddled with settings and players ?

Thanks a lot

How is it clear evidence? They had 10 shots on target and scored 8. You could equally deduce that it was a keeper's nightmare that caused the result.

So far btw I have had one email - which contained a link to a pkm already uploaded. I have had a look and there is nothing obvious happening that is wrong in terms of data. What transpires is a Man U team playing like Gods and utterly exposing the lack of pace in a Liverpool team. An absolute freak result for sure, and I am waiting on the user in question to let me know what he did tactically on the Man U side.

[Pipo2525]

No problem, if your opinion is different from all the opinions in this thread then no problem.

Just look at screenshots and read all the posts and then you will realise maybe your opinion is different from the mass. It has been also under investigation by SI so take it easy guy.

Different from the masses, may I point you in the direction of the good team and player forum and see how many people are enjoying the game in there and i think you will see its you who is in a minority. As for the game being easy, I wish it was, playing with man utd and currently 6 points away from top having scored 4 goals in 5 games.

[Roady99]

How is it clear evidence? They had 10 shots on target and scored 8. You could equally deduce that it was a keeper's nightmare that caused the result.

So far btw I have had one email - which contained a link to a pkm already uploaded. I have had a look and there is nothing obvious happening that is wrong in terms of data. What transpires is a Man U team playing like Gods and utterly exposing the lack of pace in a Liverpool team. An absolute freak result for sure, and I am waiting on the user in question to let me know what he did tactically on the Man U side.

A freak result that imo will happen in real life (Liverpool fan btw), Liverpool have NO pace and Man Utd have an ambundance, So they basically destroy us down the wings and through the middle.

[Loversleaper]

To be honest in my opinion, Your results (Apart from the liverpool one) Are ones id expect you to get, Maybe id even say you should have had better results (Sunderland, Man City, Fulham) Im yet to see anyone *Overacheive* With any team, Actually wait maybe the Swansea save someone had, But all in all i dont see it any easier than other versions of FM, All i see is a more simple layout and much better for the novice to understand things, Now if you was winning every match 10-0 thats over acheiving, But like you say, Its hardly any different from RL (Baring the Liverpool result) And being honest as a Liverpool fan that could well happen, Only have to have a bad day at the office and that could happen.

Well, it seems to be hard to impress anyone lately, doesn't it? Getting into 4th postition with Wolves (predicted 17th) - 3 points of second place - 19 games into the EPL, or losing just 1 game in 16 with newly promoted Atlanta (predicted 20th) plus looking at all the others that shown screenshots having consistantly good results (saying at the same time they feel the game is fairly easy) doesn't count for anything. Speaking for myself, I did no micro-managing at all - didn't touch training, team talks or press. If this is not a cause for concern then I don't know what is...

Pipo (above poster) said that the ones who think the game is too easy is in the minority - that might be true. Everyone is too busy having a good time winning to care, but I think this type of 'fun' will be short lived. Once the challenge aspect is basically gone then you usually get bored, we might not be there yet - but I think when it dawns on people they are not doing anything special compared to everyone else they might stop up and say "hey, hold on a minute...". The fact is that this game is no longer the most advanced Manager game on the market, you get more of a challenge playing FIFA12 as things currently stand...

What will it take to show that this game is too easy? If the evidence so far is not good enough then what could possibly be the next step? Let's take you, Roady, as an example: two weeks ago you were complaining that you couldn't get to grips with the game and was just about to give up. Yet along comes demo12 and you start getting fantastic results which included a 7-0 win over Watford & a 5-1 victory over Everton from the EPL. You describe yourself as a Liverpool fan that is under the impression that Liverpool could lose 10-0, what is Liverpools biggest defeat in the last 10 years - has Liverpool even got close to loosing a game with that type of margine?...

[milnerpoint]

What will it take to show that this game is too easy? If the evidence so far is not good enough then what could possibly be the next step?

Send your PKM's to Paul, that is the ONLY way anything will be done, screen shots and bad mouthing less experienced FMer's prove nothing at all.

[red265]

I think it may be too easy...I'm using Stoke with a long ball game, and beat arsenal 4-0. My squad was half threadbare up front while Arsenal was at their A team. Jerome hattricked.

[PaulC]

A freak result that imo will happen in real life (Liverpool fan btw), Liverpool have NO pace and Man Utd have an ambundance, So they basically destroy us down the wings and through the middle.

Nah, its your cup final and Utd havent seemed to match your desire at Anfield in recent years. Liverpool win or draw.

[Kriss]

I attribute lack of overperformance to my tactic, not the game. So I attribute overperformance to my tactic, hence I haven't noticed that the game has become too easy.

On a side note, I haven't made a bad tactic for the Demo yet, though. That is unusual.

Interesting point here, you can now see how familiar your team are with the tactic you have chosen, if you stick with the default 442 it's usually around 75% if you change to one you've created that can be as little as 10%, I'd suggest that has a pretty big effect on how they perform, at least initially.

[Loversleaper]

Send your PKM's to Paul, that is the ONLY way anything will be done, screen shots and bad mouthing less experienced FMer's prove nothing at all.

To be totally honest, milner, this can't be my job. The ammount of games I have to put into PKM's is just not something I want to spend my time on, there are professionals out there that have this as a job. It's not all about one game in a PKM, we can always discuss what the logistics did during a game to make the outcome the way it turned out. Liverpool loosing 10-0 on home ground might be able to be proved dueable in FM terms (the pace reality) but won't be dueable compared to real life (where FM is trying to be...).

[milnerpoint]

Interesting point here, you can now see how familiar your team are with the tactic you have chosen, if you stick with the default 442 it's usually around 75% if you change to one you've created that can be as little as 10%, I'd suggest that has a pretty big effect on how they perform, at least initially.

That is actually a very very good point, i remember a few threads with people unhappy that a team wouldnt be familiar with a standard 442 or 443 formation last year, have SI made these basic common formations more familiar to teams when you start?

[Kriss]

That is actually a very very good point, i remember a few threads with people unhappy that a team wouldnt be familiar with a standard 442 or 443 formation last year, have SI made these basic common formations more familiar to teams when you start?

Haven't played with this much but it seems all of the default tactics give around 60%, if you set the ones your assman recommends it can increase a little, once you start tinkering with indvidual settings it can reduce horribly:D

[milnerpoint]

To be totally honest, milner, this can't be my job. The ammount of games I have to put into PKM's is just not something I want to spend my time on, there are professionals out there that have this as a job. It's not all about one game in a PKM, we can always discuss what the logistics did during a game to make the outcome the way it turned out. Liverpool loosing 10-0 on home ground might be able to be proved dueable in FM terms (the pace reality) but won't be dueable compared to real life (where FM is trying to be...).

So your time is better spent posting in here posting screen shots that Paul has said help him in no way at all.? Your experienced on here, you know the way it all works, why not help out if you genuinely think you have come across an issue? I'm an experienced FMer and i havent found the demo any easier than previous versions, i've had average results with my Aberdeen team, infact results on a par with real life so far this season maybe slightly better, so to me this isnt as cut and dry as you and grep are making out. Yes the AI is not up to par with a human, it will never even come close, not in our lifetime with your bog standard PC. You do have to realise that the main people making this claim are experienced FMer's, the game hasnt changed much in the past two years in terms of what tactics work, you clearly have a good grasp on that side of things, so even you setting up a basic tactic is going to be effective, you know what works, what is logical, and most importantly how this is interpenetrated into the ME. With good moral and a solid tactical set up you can do anything in football, it has been proven throughout the years, look at Hull a few years ago, flying in the league, sitting in the top 6 all the way to xmas because they were riding high on moral. Rangers went all the way to the EURO cup final with a squad that would struggle to win the championship because of a solid tactic and absolutely fantastic team moral.

[milnerpoint]

Haven't played with this much but it seems all of the default tactics give around 60%, if you set the ones your assman recommends it can increase a little, once you start tinkering with indvidual settings it can reduce horribly:D

That makes sense really, a pro team should have a grasp of basic formations through experience, something more exotic should take longer to become accustomed too.

[grep]

How is it clear evidence? They had 10 shots on target and scored 8. You could equally deduce that it was a keeper's nightmare that caused the result.

So far btw I have had one email - which contained a link to a pkm already uploaded. I have had a look and there is nothing obvious happening that is wrong in terms of data. What transpires is a Man U team playing like Gods and utterly exposing the lack of pace in a Liverpool team. An absolute freak result for sure, and I am waiting on the user in question to let me know what he did tactically on the Man U side.

Paul, first of all thanks for looking into this.

Second, I think that reading trough this thread and seeing the screenshots and comments it is pretty clear that an easiness issue is on duty on FM12. Have you seen all the fixtures screenshots reporting 90% of wins and in addition scoring lot of goals each win ?

I doubt all the people commenting here wanna waste their and your time reporting those screens and comments but, if this thread screens and comments are nothing if not supported by files ( it takes lot of hours to produce a test you know ) well, I doubt everyone will spend dozens of hours playing until January to witness an evidence already posted by many others. BTW also in the 3D ME bugs forum there is a thread on the same subjects.

Do we have to take these threads as a nightmare to quickly forget ?

I expect some new threads will surface once the game will be released speaking about the boredom of winning everything in a easy way, that will be too late to consider our feedbacks IMO.

[Trents]

I haven't seen a noticeable change in difficulty from the previous versions TBH. One thing which has stuck me though is the difference home advantage makes. While playing a similar standard side at home sees me with plenty of possession and chances, reverse the fixture with the same opponent, line up and tactics and I see a completely different game with me very much on the back foot.

Not a bad thing at all, and replicates RL as it should but I feel the need to have separate home and away tactics will be more necessary in this release than ever before.

[grep]

Loversleaper, I agree with you 100%.

It seems we are genius, so I propose to show everybody how we can EASILY win a Champions Cup within 5 years starting from a League 2 team. Dear SI, will this be an evidence enough ?

The only problem is that winning in this way does not produce fun for me, I agree with you also on that.

We will be forced to play FM12 like we had the FMRTE always ON with ALL the cheats maximized out. What a fun....

[anagain]

As I've stated a fair few times, I have had my thoughts on the easiness of FM for a few editions now. I don't know what I can provide in terms of substantial evidence though. I can provide thoughts and feelings, along with results and trends but can you folks at SI see anything from my save files? If you can I'll happily upload the saves I feel have become too easy.

I can link the post I made in another forum if it helps. I had some thoughts about the game and I would like to know if there's something in it.

That post (#116)

I definitely notice a trend in second seasons of the game becoming far too easy to beat. This isn't perhaps every game as I remember not doing so great with Valur in iceland, but is more often the case than it is not. It's never first season that I encounter this either. I started a game with Barnet last edition and struggled immensely, as I have done with Dorchester in the past. It's just that as soon as season two comes around I start performing like Man U on performance drugs.

I have further feelings and they concern the players I am able to sign. In the past I have compared the players I have signed with those that other teams in my league have signed. There is almost always a huge discrepancy in what I find. The opposition are signing players I wouldn't even look twice at. Perhaps there are some discrepancies in what players are agreeing to sign for teams and I am therefore able to find talent that I should not be able to sign.

I mentioned above that I found a game as Valur more difficult than I normally do. Part of this was struggling to find decent players to improve my team, and looks at other players in my league suggested that the opposition were on a par with me this time.

I really want to enjoy FM again. Perhaps to do so would require me imposing strict limits on who I buy, or perhaps there is something in the design of the game that is giving human managers an unfair advantage. I trust SI to want to deliver a game that is as good as it can be, and one that doesn't require me imposing these strict limits on myself, because it's not always desireable.

NOTE: I do realise Wrexham (the team I found too easy in my most recent save) are flying high at the top of the Blue Square this year, but the season that would correspond to this in my game found me struggling with patchy form.

[Loversleaper]

So your time is better spent posting in here posting screen shots that Paul has said help him in no way at all.? Your experienced on here, you know the way it all works, why not help out if you genuinely think you have come across an issue? I'm an experienced FMer and i havent found the demo any easier than previous versions, i've had average results with my Aberdeen team, infact results on a par with real life so far this season maybe slightly better, so to me this isnt as cut and dry as you and grep are making out. Yes the AI is not up to par with a human, it will never even come close, not in our lifetime with your bog standard PC. You do have to realise that the main people making this claim are experienced FMer's, the game hasnt changed much in the past two years in terms of what tactics work, you clearly have a good grasp on that side of things, so even you setting up a basic tactic is going to be effective, you know what works, what is logical, and most importantly how this is interpenetrated into the ME. With good moral and a solid tactical set up you can do anything in football, it has been proven throughout the years, look at Hull a few years ago, flying in the league, sitting in the top 6 all the way to xmas because they were riding high on moral. Rangers went all the way to the EURO cup final with a squad that would struggle to win the championship because of a solid tactic and absolutely fantastic team moral.

Roady99 is not exactly an experienced FM gamer judging by the thread he opened up a couple of weeks ago, and look at what he did. The fact is, is that I have not been using any of my so-called 'experience' to achieve the things I have this time around. Not touching training or setting up coaches, leaving team talks and press to the assistant, not using the multi-strategy theory behind the ME or even making any changes/shouts during any of my saves - is not what I exactly would call 'using my experience'. How am I going to put that into a PKM anyway? I would have to send my save games in and they would look at it and say what? The same things that have been already said from the SI towers recently.

There is nothing that I am doing that is out of the ordinary, I have not experienced any 'bugs' that cause any abnormal behavior. It is just a fact that you do not have to do anything to overachieve, who am I to say that this is because of some bug? Maybe it's just the way it has been programmed this time around, have you thought about that? There will always be logical explanations why this and that happened, but the fact still remains that this game has become a lot easier, I have witnessed the games from year to year so I have an idea what the 'difficulty levels' have been along the way so it is self evident that this demo12 doesn't meet the 'normal' requirements - and this is comming from an experienced long time gamer...

[Roady99]

Well, it seems to be hard to impress anyone lately, doesn't it? Getting into 4th postition with Wolves (predicted 17th) - 3 points of second place - 19 games into the EPL, or losing just 1 game in 16 with newly promoted Atlanta (predicted 20th) plus looking at all the others that shown screenshots having consistantly good results (saying at the same time they feel the game is fairly easy) doesn't count for anything. Speaking for myself, I did no micro-managing at all - didn't touch training, team talks or press. If this is not a cause for concern then I don't know what is...

Pipo (above poster) said that the ones who think the game is too easy is in the minority - that might be true. Everyone is too busy having a good time winning to care, but I think this type of 'fun' will be short lived. Once the challenge aspect is basically gone then you usually get bored, we might not be there yet - but I think when it dawns on people they are not doing anything special compared to everyone else they might stop up and say "hey, hold on a minute...". The fact is that this game is no longer the most advanced Manager game on the market, you get more of a challenge playing FIFA12 as things currently stand...

What will it take to show that this game is too easy? If the evidence so far is not good enough then what could possibly be the next step? Let's take you, Roady, as an example: two weeks ago you were complaining that you couldn't get to grips with the game and was just about to give up. Yet along comes demo12 and you start getting fantastic results which included a 7-0 win over Watford & a 5-1 victory over Everton from the EPL. You describe yourself as a Liverpool fan that is under the impression that Liverpool could lose 10-0, what is Liverpools biggest defeat in the last 10 years - has Liverpool even got close to loosing a game with that type of margine?...

Right, Firstly, I have stated before, Wolves actually have a decent squad, And with the right tactics i do feel they could push well up the table, Secondly its only 19games in on a small database (Which i really do think impacts on the top teams), So you still have plenty of time to start losing matchs, Thirdly, Yes i was having trouble with the previous incarnation of FM, But unlike FM11, FM12 makes it much easier to understand what youre doing, And lastly, Ill give Liverpools match against Tottenham this season, We should have lost by far more than 4-0 but heyho i guess because i struggled with the last version and not this one my point is moot.

May i also add, I have been playing this game for nigh on 15yrs so what would i have to do to become an *Experinced* Fm gamer?

[milnerpoint]

Loversleaper, I agree with you 100%.

It seems we are genius, so I propose to show everybody how we can EASILY win a Champions Cup within 5 years starting from a League 2 team. Dear SI, will this be an evidence enough ?

The only problem is that winning in this way does not produce fun for me, I agree with you also on that.

We will be forced to play FM12 like we had the FMRTE always ON with ALL the cheats maximized out. What a fun....

Its not going to prove a single thing, there will no way to check if its legit or not, the ONLY things that can prove ANYTHING is this respect are PKM's, nothing else at all, screen shots, posting results, none of that proves anything. I could start a game today, win every single game through cheating, post up the screen shots as evidence, or i could lose every game and post screen shots countering your argument, but if you provide paul with game info, he can look into why its happening.

[Carmi88]

Loversleaper, I agree with you 100%.

It seems we are genius, so I propose to show everybody how we can EASILY win a Champions Cup within 5 years starting from a League 2 team. Dear SI, will this be an evidence enough ?

wont be evidence enough as leaper cant be arsed to help anybody by supplying evidence other then a screenshot, which means nothing. not a dig, just don't see how somebody can complain and then not try and do anything about it

[Roady99]

I think it may be too easy...I'm using Stoke with a long ball game, and beat arsenal 4-0. My squad was half threadbare up front while Arsenal was at their A team. Jerome hattricked.

Last season did Stoke not spank Arsenal (With the long ball game)? Did Arsenal not have a better squad last season too? As for moral of the Arseanl team i cant think its all that great...

[Roady99]

Roady99 is not exactly an experienced FM gamer judging by the thread he opened up a couple of weeks ago, and look at what he did. The fact is, is that I have not been using any of my so-called 'experience' to achieve the things I have this time around. Not touching training or setting up coaches, leaving team talks and press to the assistant, not using the multi-strategy theory behind the ME or even making any changes/shouts during any of my saves - is not what I exactly would call 'using my experience'. How am I going to put that into a PKM anyway? I would have to send my save games in and they would look at it and say what? The same things that have been already said from the SI towers recently.

There is nothing that I am doing that is out of the ordinary, I have not experienced any 'bugs' that cause any abnormal behavior. It is just a fact that you do not have to do anything to overachieve, who am I to say that this is because of some bug? Maybe it's just the way it has been programmed this time around, have you thought about that? There will always be logical explanations why this and that happened, but the fact still remains that this game has become a lot easier, I have witnessed the games from year to year so I have an idea what the 'difficulty levels' have been along the way so it is self evident that this demo12 doesn't meet the 'normal' requirements - and this is comming from an experienced long time gamer...

Ok, Right you say you dont have to do *Anything* to overacheive, But i have already proved that you do, I set up a game as Wolves, Touched NOTHING, Clicked continue and ended up 14th come Jan, So how did i overacheive by doing nothing?

[Loversleaper]

wont be evidence enough as leaper cant be arsed to help anybody by supplying evidence other then a screenshot, which means nothing. not a dig, just don't see how somebody can complain and then not try and do anything about it

Seriously, what will a PKM prove? Looking at a single game won't show anything, my friend...

All it will show is that single game could have happened that's it...